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Is Jesus God In The Flesh?


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#81 MamaElephant

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 10:54 AM

Actually, the Trinity is woven throughout both the Old and New Testaments. It’s not just scripture but context as well.
Indeed, as God in the flesh, Jesus cast of His right to Deity, and was subservient to God the father for the mission He (Jesus) had on this Earth as the second Adam (per se). We are keeping this contextual, correct?

And the union is what (i.e. what are you supposing the “union” to be here)?
Yes, but this is a public forum, and a moderated public forum as well.  :) Feel free to quote any rules that I break, and please let me know if I am rude, as that is far from my intentions.

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Yes of course, I have heard before that Jesus was subservient while on earth. How daft of me to forget that point. These statements, I believe, are made after Christ is in heaven. 1 Corinthians 11:3, 2 Corinthians 1:3, Hebrews 9:24, 1 Peter 1:3, Acts 5:31, Philippians 2:9, Acts 7:55, Revelation 4:8 to 5:7.

I assume the union to be "one in mind and purpose" for both Jesus, his Father, and those belonging to the Christian congregation.

#82 ikester7579

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 11:24 AM

Yes Yes I agree 100%. Very well said. :) The truth becomes clearer when you don't have imperfect men muddying it up with things passed down in attitudes and sayings that have no scriptural foundation. That is exactly what my husband and I have done as well. Separate ourselves for a time to research on our own.


Also, a lot of beliefs take things out of context. When ever you find a verse that contradicts what is believed, you have to search it out to make sure what is believed is true. Or that what contradicts it happens to be a condition. We all to often just ignore contradicting verses in favor of what we want to believe. When the verse may reveal more truth about it instead of totally proving it wrong.

And if it proves it wrong we should be happy that we have been corrected so that we no longer believe what is not true.

In fact we should love truth to the point that we would welcome correction using God's word regardless. But so many are dogmatic to a certain denomination or belief that they actually hurt themselves in wanting more to be right, then they want truth.

Example: If someone could prove to you that JW is wrong (not my goal, just a question), would you listen and accept if Biblically proven?

I had the foundation of my denomination proven wrong and am better for it.

Concerning multiple translations, yes I agree... that is why one must go to the original languages to understand some of the scriptures.

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You have to watch it on the original languages. There are people out there that are taking this and twisting it to their advantage. These same people will take and call people who believe in one translation a cult. Like KJVO (king James version only) cult.

#83 MamaElephant

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 11:33 AM

And if it proves it wrong we should be happy that we have been corrected so that we no longer believe what is not true.

Example: If someone could prove to you that JW is wrong (not my goal, just a question), would you listen and accept if Biblically proven?

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Absolutely. I have tried. :o :)

#84 Fred Williams

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:24 PM

If JW's made up the word Jehovah, then someone must have invented the word Jesus as it does not appear in scripture either.

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I wrote quickly and said JWs invented the word, what I meant to say was they invented the word as it appears in the Bible - that is, nowhere in the New Testament do you find the word Jehovah except in the JWs NWT translation. Why is there no evidence that the very word you proclaim and is the signet of your religion has no evidence to support its existence in the original text?

You said in an earlier post that JWs do not worship Jesus. Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?

What about all the failed prophecies of JWs? Have they given up predicting the end of the world?

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#85 MamaElephant

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 06:23 PM

I have spent years looking into Jehovah's Witnesses trying to prove them wrong. Really. My sister left the religion and wrote me off as a result. I will admit that I also left altogether for a time (about 3 years). I used that time to look into the scriptures, and I am always interested in others thoughts. I have also been not-so-sure, or irregular for 6 years while continuing to test. It is unlikely that you are going to come up with anything that I haven't heard before. I am sure now in my heart and mind Jehovah's Witnesses are God's people. The evidence of their worldwide harmony (the same public talks in over 400 languages, more literature available than anyone I know of and all supported by voluntary donations) is one thing that really moves me. I will always continue to test though, so here we go, in red, then we should probably move to PM as this is getting OT.

Regarding Jesus as God, here are some starters, many more where these came from:

1) John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"  Jesus said to him,  "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."  Thomas called Jesus both Lord and God, and Jesus did not correct him. That is a good point. I have known of this scripture before, but I will look into it again as I don't remember specifics.

3) In Exodus 34:14, we are told to worship no other God, Yehovah (Jehovah never appears in scripture, so even that word is made up buy JWs!). Yet in Hebrews 1:6, the angels worship Christ! Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
There are scores more that JWs have to explain away. I will look into this one. I am surprised that the explanation isn't readily available in the back of the NWT.  :blink: The NWT says "do obeisance to him". I have found the New Jerusalem Bible very accurate, and it says "Again, when he brings the First-born into the world, he says: Let all the angels of God pay him homage." Hebrews 9:24 states that Christ entered into heaven to appear before the person of God for us. Do you have an explanation for that?

Oh regarding Genesis where God says "Let us create man in our image" JWs believe that he was speaking to Jesus, as all things were created for him and through him (I believe that is in Colossians.


MamaElephant, you sound like a nice person, I am not out to intentionally offend you, but Jesus, the true Jesus, after all is the “Rock of offense”. Please consider this verse:

Mark 9:42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”

I am glad you defend creation. However, you are doing as bad or worse than an evolutionist, because you are teaching a false doctrine to your kids that puts them in eternal danger. Please consider that if you are wrong (which scripture overwhelmingly says you are), you couldn’t be wrong in a more serious way.

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I think you missed this part of my reply, since I edited it in.

Personally, I take that warning that you sited very seriously. I am very careful to teach my children from scripture. I even avoided organized meetings for a time while I prayed about the bad influence of imperfect man and worked out how I would best raise my children with the truth about God.

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When you use several Bible translations, you can basically find anything to support anything you want. The one that does support what you want to believe is the one you select to use or quote from, right? Uh, no. Not at all. Sometimes there is no contradiction, only an easier to understand phrase or synonym. When there is a contradiction, then one goes to the original languages and asks which translation is more accurate. Generally one can find many translations that are worded the "correct" way, especially if one goes to earlier translations.

A lot of translations end up supporting what the main translator wants it to say. I agree.

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Also, a lot of beliefs take things out of context. When ever you find a verse that contradicts what is believed, you have to search it out to make sure what is believed is true. Or that what contradicts it happens to be a condition. Absolutely.

And if it proves it wrong we should be happy that we have been corrected so that we no longer believe what is not true. Yes, again, I agree.

In fact we should love truth to the point that we would welcome correction using God's word regardless. But so many are dogmatic to a certain denomination or belief that they actually hurt themselves in wanting more to be right, then they want truth.

Example: If someone could prove to you that JW is wrong (not my goal, just a question), would you listen and accept if Biblically proven?

I had the foundation of my denomination proven wrong and am better for it.
You have to watch it on the original languages. There are people out there that are taking this and twisting it to their advantage. These same people will take and call people who believe in one translation a cult. Like KJVO (king James version only) cult. Interesting. I know of many people who will only use the KJV and I have never heard them called a cult.

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You said in an earlier post that JWs do not worship Jesus. Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954? That is odd for you to think. The June 1882 Watch Tower said: Many pagan philosophers set about paving an easy way trying to discover correspondencies between Christianity and Paganism. At this time therefore, the doctrine of three gods was invented. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. (paraphrased) The July 1883 issue of the Watch Tower said: "More Bible and less hymn-book theology would have made the subject clear to all. The doctrine of the trinity is totally opposed to scripture." Perhaps you are thinking of celebrating Christmas? I know that was allowed for quite a time.

What about all the failed prophecies of JWs? Have they given up predicting the end of the world? Yes, actually, though I would not call them prophecies, but supposition. That is why my sister left. I really appreciate the fact that the Witnesses will admit that they were wrong and make changes. Even in the beginning, Russel broke off from his writing partner in defense of the ransom doctrine.

Fred

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I wrote quickly and said JWs invented the word, what I meant to say was they invented the word as it appears in the Bible - that is, nowhere in the New Testament do you find the word Jehovah except in the JWs NWT translation. I noticed that, in fact and wanted evidence myself. Did you know that it is no big secret? JWs have an article explaining where the name is inserted in the NWT when other translations do not have it. Why is there no evidence that the very word you proclaim and is the signet of your religion has no evidence to support its existence in the original text?
Fred

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You must have only skimmed my post. That's okay; we all do it. Here it is again. The older copies of the Greek Septuagint version of the New Testament did indeed contain the Tetragrammaton. I believe I actually have a photocopy of it somewhere. It would only make sense that the Bible writers included the Tetragrammaton where it appeared in Hebrew scripture, if they were quoting it. Especially Matthew, who wrote the entire book in Hebrew.

The Tetragrammaton appears almost 7,000 times in the original Hebrew text. Jesus and his followers read from and quoted this text, including the name. (Romans 10:13, Acts2:21, Joel 2:32, Luke 4:16-21, Isaiah 61:1, 2) In addition, some very old fragments of the Septuagint Version that actually existed in Jesus' day have survived down to our day, and it is noteworthy that the personal name of God appeared in them. If you look up the quoted scriptures you are likely to find the word LORD as it is in most translations to substitute for the divine name.

The name of the Father seems very important to Jesus in these verses. We are even to pray for God's name in the model prayer! "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified."—Matthew 6:9. see also John 17:6, 11.

Hallelujah—The English transliteration of the Hebrew expression ha·lelu-Yah´, meaning "praise Jah," or "praise Jah, you people."

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#86 AFJ

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 06:58 PM

Mama,

I am not a Hebrew scholar, but my understanding on Hebrew for the Name of Jehovah is this: There are only consonants so it translates as YHWH. So you can insert YeHoVaH--Jehovah. But messianic Jews say YaHWeH--"Yahway."


The only problem I have with JW is John 1:1. There are plenty of scriptures that state that Jesus is God beside this, so "the Word was A god" is an issue with me.

It's just like there is one Spirit, but in Revelation there are "the seven spirits of God." Yeah you can interpret this like it's seven created spirits, but I don't belive that. The reason--they are the EYES of the Lord. Well, why would an all knowing God create eyes--he already has them--so that's His Spirit. 7 in 1--3 in 1. I and my father are one. I don't have to be able to comprehend it fully it to believe it.

Mama, I hope this doesn't offend you--because I'm not directing it toward you personally. You seem like a really cool fair minded person--with an intelligent mind. I have talked with JW's, and I find it ashame that my belief doesn't seem to be good enough--I have to UNDERSTAND and have knowledge. I believe obedience to God's command to overcome fleshly lusts is much more important as to how many people will be in heaven and whether I will be a part of the 144000.

#87 MamaElephant

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 07:28 PM

Thank you.

Yes, the original pronunciation of God's name is lost. That is why I mentioned the tetragrammaton so much in my post.

My first thought on that scripture in Revelation is that 7 is a number used in the Bible to signify completeness.

I have talked with JW's, and I find it ashame that my belief doesn't seem to be good enough--I have to UNDERSTAND and have knowledge.  I believe obedience to God's command to overcome fleshly lusts is much more important as to how many people will be in heaven and whether I will be a part of the 144000.

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Its funny that you say that, because with our time away we have a similar idea. Many JWs seem too dogmatic to me. There are some people who are in danger of 1. giving up on Christianity altogether or of 2. not having a close personal relationship with God or 3. not having anything to look forward to because of the disappointment in not seeing their family living on the earth again, or because of not understanding the Trinity, or because of the idea of hell fire. These are the people that I hope to reach in my ministry. It seems some of them may be in this forum, since this question was asked.

One of our elders stated it nicely from the platform the other day. "Our goal is not to prove that Jehovah's Witnesses are right, but to reach people's hearts with God's Word.

#88 Fred Williams

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 09:05 PM

“I am sure now in my heart and mind Jehovah's Witnesses are God's people.”

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While I don’t have all the answers, I am 100% sure Jesus IS Who He said He is. So, that being said, I am 100% sure, without a shred of doubt, that JWs are wolves in sheep’s clothing (whether they realize it or not) deceived by Satan, and will lead many along with themselves to eternal damnation. We all deserve to go to hell, but faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross is our only path to salvation. It has to be the real Jesus, it has to be God who redeems us. It makes perfect logical sense. I pray you see the wisdom of your sister (hopefully she is a saved Chirstian).

“I will always continue to test though”


But I see a serious problem in all your posts. You don’t allow your “tests” to be falsified. You’ve got a ready-made “answer” for everything regardless of whether or not it makes sense. For example:

“I would not call them prophecies, but supposition. That is why my sister left. I really appreciate the fact that the Witnesses will admit that they were wrong and make changes.”


You don’t want to call them prophesies because you’ve already been told what God thinks of false prophets, so you create for yourself an exit by calling them “supposition”. Yet everyone knows they were prophecies. Then, to top it off, you pat them on the back for admitting they were wrong! Of course they were wrong, the world did NOT come to an end when they said it would! What further proof do you need that this is a false religion created by fallible men who, because their hearts were AGAINST the True God, were easily influenced by the prince of this world?

Another example:

Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)

So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine?

“The older copies of the Greek Septuagint version of the New Testament did indeed contain the Tetragrammaton.”


Do you realize what you just said? The Septuagint is OLD Testament. There is no evidence of Tetragrammaton in the New Testament, it is pure speculation, and a gross exaggeration for the JWs to insert it 237 times in the New Testament.

Here is a good quote from a powerful source on the shenanigans of the JWs:

“The New World Translation has time and time again demonstrated that it is not really a translation. Although those on the committee understood that it is not a translators job to freely substitute words in that are not in the text, and ignore every ancient manuscript in favor of hand-picked translations that were chosen to support a preconceived doctrinal bias, that is exactly what they have done. To makes matters worse, they ignore the same sources they tout when those sources disagree with their own slanted position (ie. "J" sources that proclaim that Jesus is YHWH). The NWT cannot be trusted as an accurate rendering of any text, whether New Testament or Old. Items such as the 1961 version claim that "Jehovah" appears in the "Christian Greek Scriptures" are proof that the NWT was written to be a propaganda piece, and will tell a deliberate falsehood to bolster it's claims.” - http://www.neirr.org...ragrammaton.htm

Fred

#89 MamaElephant

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 07:54 AM

While I don’t have all the answers, I am 100% sure Jesus IS Who He said He is. Here we see where the unbelieving Jews are accusing Jesus: John 5:18, "... called God his Father, making himself equal to God."
But I see a serious problem in all your posts. You don’t allow your “tests” to be falsified. You’ve got a ready-made “answer” for everything That is annoying, isn't it? regardless of whether or not it makes sense. For example:
You don’t want to call them prophesies because you’ve already been told what God thinks of false prophets, They did not claim to be inspired of God. Prophets do. so you create for yourself an exit by calling them “supposition”. Yet everyone knows they were prophecies. Then, to top it off, you pat them on the back for admitting they were wrong! Of course they were wrong, the world did NOT come to an end when they said it would!
Another example:

Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)

So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine? Interesting. The term "worship" used in the Greek Septuagint was also used here: 1 Kings 1:23 where Abraham is showing honor to businessmen as customary at the time. Proverbs 4:18, John 16:12 indicate that God's servants will progressively refine their beliefs. Daniel 12:4, 8,9; 1 Peter 1:10-12; Acts 1:6,7; 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 show that God's people have not always understood everything.
Do you realize what you just said? The Septuagint is OLD Testament. There is no evidence of Tetragrammaton in the New Testament, it is pure speculation, and a gross exaggeration for the JWs to insert it 237 times in the New Testament. I made a mistake and typed NT instead of OT. Is my face red. Professor George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote: "Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible which made up the Scripture of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the NT writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text." --Journal of Biblical Literature, March 1977, p. 77. The Emphatic Diaglott contains the name Jehovah in the Christian Greek scriptures, as do 38 various other translations. Jehovah's Witnesses do not run from using other translations to study the Bible with people. Taking the scriptures as a whole while studying instead of picking one verse will rectify any problems.

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#90 MamaElephant

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 07:56 AM

Here is a good quote from a powerful source on the shenanigans of the JWs: Fred, I could quote Truth in Translation and etc. but we will be quoting opposing viewpoints all day. I believe that your wording here is rude, and it is pretty much universally rude to tell someone that they will suffer eternal damnation, is it not? Have I been rude in my posts? I asked that this be moved to PM. If it is my soul that concerns you, why have you not done this? Is my opinion of you increasing as this conversation continues? Do you think your chances of convincing me are going up as this conversation continues?

#91 Ron

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 08:17 AM

The only problem I have with JW is John 1:1.  There are plenty of scriptures that state that Jesus is God beside this, so "the Word was A god" is an issue with me. 

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There are more translational issues with the NWT translation than that AFJ, but setting that aside, I would suggest that one researches the purported scholarship of that translation as well.

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 06:06 PM

Is Jesus God in the flesh? What does scripture tell us?

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.




John 14:6 Jesus said I am the Way; I am Truth and Life.



To this day, many heal and cast out spirits in HIS name. He is both son of God and God!


John 14:7,8 If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment you know him and have seen him.
Philip said, "lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied. Jesus said to him, Have I been with you all this time Philip, and you still do not know me?
'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say "Show us the Father"?



Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”1




“Immanuel” literally means: “God with us.” See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was “God with us.”




God revealed Himself to us through His son Jesus Christ! The Father is in Him, and He is in the Father.


Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”



Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”




Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”



Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”




In the Jewish culture, only the ONE true God can be worshipped!
Had they been mistaken or had blasphemed, Christ would have corrected them.


John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”




“I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14


Which is why they picked up the stones to kill him. For proclaiming Himself as God - the "I AM".


John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”



John 8:19: “You know neither me, nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”



John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"



Revelation 21:3 God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.


1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me.



Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.



John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He (Christ), ye shall die in your sins.



John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him (Jesus) {For their perceived blasphemy of Jesus calling Himself God}, because He not only had broken the Sabbath {customs, as they understood them}, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.



Colossians 1:14-15 In whom (Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn {Inheritor} of every creature:



Colossians 2:9-10 For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:



Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost (Spirit) hath made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which He hath Purchased with His Own Blood.



John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.



Jesus Himself forgave sins and allowed Himself to be worshiped as only the one and only true God can.


Mark 2:5-12 When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, He saith to the sick of the palsy, I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.



Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be Glory an Majesty, Dominion, and Power, both now and ever. Amen.



Titus 1:1-4 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested His word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.



John 18:36 Jesus answered, My Kingdom is not of this world: if My Kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should be not delivered to the Jews: but now is My Kingdom not from hence.



Philippians 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made into the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death on the cross.



John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (I existed).



John 18:5-6 They answered Him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed Him, stood with them. As soon then as He had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.



Hebrews 1:2 in our time, the final days, he has spoken to us in the person of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the ages.


Hebrews 1:3 He is the reflection of God's glory and bears the impress of God's own being, sustaining all things by His powerful command; and now that He has purged sins away, He has taken His seat at the right hand of the devine Majesty on high. So He is now as far above the angels as the title which He has inherited is higher than their own name.



Hebrews 2:10 For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom (Jesus) are all things (created), in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.



Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Spirit);



Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) LORD:



Three distinct persons within ONE God. Even in the beginning of creation, God refers to Himself as "Us".


Genesis 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our own image, in the likeness of ourselves".



I am unsure how any of these truths can possibly be denied or mistaken in face of so many testaments throughout the bible.

#93 Fred Williams

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:48 PM

I asked that this be moved to PM. If it is my soul that concerns you, why have you not done this? Is my opinion of you increasing as this conversation continues? Do you think your chances of convincing me are going up as this conversation continues? [/color]

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Our goal here isn’t just to hope to convince you, but also show guests and members of this forum that the JW doctrine you preach is not only contradictory, inconsistent, and chalked with double-standards, but most importantly dangerous and deadly. Right out of the gate we have provided you just a couple powerful verses where there are scores more to appeal to (as Bex has aptly shown), and you cannot account for them because they totally contradict your view that Jesus is not God. You admit you’ll look in to them, but will you really? I truly do hope so, but in the mean time we need to show the listening audience the flaws and dangers of JW theology.

Regarding my “rude” demeanor, imagine yourself trying to convince someone that a new ecstasy drug that they’ve decided to use is deadly. How much time would you spend talking about the scientific evidence, and how much time would you spend telling them the drug will kill them? The closer they are to you, such as family, would make you even more vocal about the outcome of their choice; you would surely warn them that the drug will kill them. But even a perfect stranger, if you cared for them, you would go right to the outcome and warn them.

Believe me I understand your thinking I am rude for talking about the outcome of your beliefs. But on judgment day, are you going to be wishing more Christians would have said 1) “God loves you”, 2) argued the evidence with you, or 3) told you the outcome of your belief was eternal damnation? The Bible calls on believers to essentially do all three, but most Christians who even venture to do any kind of witnessing seldom get past #1 (which is essentially to preach the gospel). We are to not only tell people of the gospel, but also to convince (provided they want to listen), and to warn, but most Christians especially don’t like #3 because they don’t want to come across as judgmental, appear offensive, or appear, as you say, “rude”. But not a single Bible-believing Christian, who knows the Bible, will deny this one fact – if you die a JW you go to hell. If you die anything but a Christian saved by God (Jesus), you go to hell. Christians, including myself, love the famous John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” But how many times will you see John 3:18 just two verses later appearing in the end zone of a football game: John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Are Christians supposed to leave this verse and others like them out of the conversation? Ezek 3:18-19 When I say to the wicked , 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked , and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

2 Tim 4:1-5 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

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#94 AFJ

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 07:54 AM

There are more translational issues with the NWT translation than that AFJ, but setting that aside, I would suggest that one researches the purported scholarship of that translation as well.

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Oh I agree. Isn't it true that there was only one translator for the NTW, while the NIV had a convention of tranlators--over 100? The KJV had 46. The NIV was an interdenominational effort. So you have more accountability that a certain denominational view is not inserted into the translation.

My issue is that there are "periphery" doctrinal issues, say like the time of the rapture, or whether you are Armenian or more Calvinistic on salvation, etc. But then there are central doctrinal issues. Most of these have to do with the Person of Christ (i.e. "Who do men say that I am?"), anything that has to do with the work of redemption (i.e. the cross), or anything that has to do with how one is saved (i.e. new birth). This is the doctrine of Christ, and we are not to transgress it at all. There is really no room for debate in these matters.

My only concern is that we "speak the truth in love."

#95 MamaElephant

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 07:55 PM

But then there are central doctrinal issues. Most of these have to do with the Person of Christ (i.e. "Who do men say that I am?"), anything that has to do with the work of redemption (i.e. the cross), or anything that has to do with how one is saved (i.e. new birth). This is the doctrine of Christ, and we are not to transgress it at all. There is really no room for debate in these matters.

Hello. Bumping this to the top so that I can argue against myself from back when I was deluded by a high-control cult and did not have the Spirit.
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#96 MamaElephant

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 08:12 PM

Is Jesus Michael the Archangel?

For to which of the angels did [God] ever say, You are My Son, today I have begotten You? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son? [II Sam. 7:14; Ps. 2:7.]

6Moreover, when He brings the firstborn Son [d]again into the habitable world, He says, Let all the angels of God worship Him. [Deut. 32:43]

7Referring to the angels He says, [God] Who makes His angels winds and His ministering servants flames of fire;

8But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever [Psalm 45:6,7]

10And [further], You, Lord, did lay the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.
[Psalm 102:25-27; Isaiah 44:24]
11They will perish, but You remain and continue permanently; they will all grow old and wear out like a garment.

12Like a mantle [thrown about one's self] You will roll them up, and they will be changed and replaced by others. But You remain the same, and Your years will never end nor come to failure.

13Besides, to which of the angels has He ever said, Sit at My right hand [associated with Me in My royal dignity] till I make your enemies a stool for your feet?

Hebrews 1

So... Is Jesus God in the flesh?

All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being. In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.

For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him. And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together). He also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent]. For it has pleased [the Father] that all the divine fullness (the sum total of the divine perfection, powers, and attributes) should dwell in Him [p]permanently.

Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?);

John 1:3,4; Colossians 1:16-19; Isaiah 44:24

#97 Teejay

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 01:46 PM

[quote] name='Harry' timestamp='1282785864' post='61427']
And therein lies the problem with interpreting anything "literally".
[/quote]

Harry,

I must ask: Will I have a problem if I interpret your post "literally"?

TeeJay

#98 Teejay

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 01:55 PM

[quote] name='Harry' timestamp='1282852588' post='61496']
No, what I AM saying is that even if absolute truths do exist we may not be able to ascertain them.

But I'm an agnostic, so I'm probably not the right person to ask. :rolleyes:
[/quote]

Harry,

Is it true that we are not able to ascertain truths?

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#99 Teejay

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 02:00 PM

[quote] name='jason78' timestamp='1282864797' post='61503']
If Jesus was God in human form, why isn't he still alive today?
[/quote]

He is alive today. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. Paul writes that when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, He will return, but this time He returs in judgment.

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#100 Teejay

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 02:08 PM

[quote] name='Harry' timestamp='1282935740' post='61565']
Why bother, Ron? It's all based on faith and none of it has been observed.

Do you have a degree in sophistry?
[/quote]

Harry,

We can know two things. The universe could not have created itself from nothing. And it could not have always been here. So, if it could not have created itself, and it could not have always been here, then absent a God creating it, what is your explanation for why it exists?

TeeJay




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