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Proof Of A Soul


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#1 thechristophershow

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 11:36 AM

This is something my high-school principal taught me.

The basic principle is that an effect can't be greater than its cause because something can't come from nothing. A dog can't read the newspaper. I can't jump off a building and fly away.

Material things are limited in time and space. My body is in this room and no where else. Spiritual things are higher than material things because they are not limited by time and space. My mind can be thinking about any other place than this room and any other time than right now.

Because spirit is higher than matter, a material cause cannot have a spiritual effect. My ability to think of spiritual concepts, like justice or mercy, which have no material component, can't come from my body, which is purely material. So I must have a spiritual component of my being--which we call a soul. This soul could not come from my body--there's no DNA for soul, and material cause can't have spiritual effect. Thus there must be a higher spiritual cause that causes my soul to be.

Proof of a soul = Proof of a higher being

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 11:41 AM

Here's something that might help: http://creationwiki...._about_eternity

#3 thechristophershow

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 10:04 PM

Thanks. I've read parts of it so far. I'll have it up in my tabs and read a little bit at a time each day. Short attention span.

#4 Greasy Joe

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 10:45 PM

This is something my high-school principal taught me.

The basic principle is that an effect can't be greater than its cause because something can't come from nothing. A dog can't read the newspaper. I can't jump off a building and fly away.

Material things are limited in time and space. My body is in this room and no where else. Spiritual things are higher than material things because they are not limited by time and space. My mind can be thinking about any other place than this room and any other time than right now.

Because spirit is higher than matter, a material cause cannot have a spiritual effect. My ability to think of spiritual concepts, like justice or mercy, which have no material component, can't come from my body, which is purely material. So I must have a spiritual component of my being--which we call a soul. This soul could not come from my body--there's no DNA for soul, and material cause can't have spiritual effect. Thus there must be a higher spiritual cause that causes my soul to be.

Proof of a soul = Proof of a higher being

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An effect actually can be greater than its cause. How about a signal cascade in a cell? <_<
But that's neither here nor there, and really wasn't important.

Also, what makes you say the mind isn't material? Isn't it just a giant lump of interacting neurons and chemical reactions? How's that different from working muscle tissue? At the very least the spiritual aspect of the mind is tied to some material portion. The spiritual ability of the mind is impaired by damage to the material brain. Can the soul be damaged by blunt means?
Is self-consciousness spirituality in and of itself? Interesting stuff christophershow.

Although, I have to say this is less definitive proof than....idk... banter? Thought-provoking banter, but banter nonetheless.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 11:33 PM

An effect actually can be greater than its cause.  How about a signal cascade in a cell? <_<
But that's neither here nor there, and really wasn't important.

Also, what makes you say the mind isn't material?  Isn't it just a giant lump of interacting neurons and chemical reactions?  How's that different from working muscle tissue?  At the very least the spiritual aspect of the mind is tied to some material portion.  The spiritual ability of the mind is impaired by damage to the material brain.  Can the soul be damaged by blunt means? 
Is self-consciousness spirituality in and of itself?  Interesting stuff christophershow. 

Although, I have to say this is less definitive proof than....idk... banter?  Thought-provoking banter, but banter nonetheless.

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Have you ever wondered why if we come from dead matter naturally, that some people die no matter what doctors do. And others survive against all odds? Why when we have something bad happen, time seems to slow up as if everything is going in slow motion? How people who have near death experiences, if they saw anything, it's usually the same thing (a tunnel of light or hell fire)?

I don't know if I could find it again online. But there is a condition of the brain that causes a type seizures that mimics death (I also saw this on PBS). And the people who have it also have near death experiences and often see what is on the other side.

An Islamic person, who does not like Christians. Kept having this and had visions he did not understand. So he started doing some research on what he was seeing to understand. He found that the visions he saw all supported the Christian faith. He said he did not like the idea that this was probably the right belief. He did not convert, but he said that it shook his current belief.

A doctor, who was doing some ambulance duty. Found that 100% of the near death experience dealing with suicide, if they saw anything, it was always hell. While others saw Heaven or Hell. He wrote a book on his findings,
Posted Image

Another doctor thought up a test for the existence of the soul. His idea was to test the weight of the body at the point of death to see if the body lost unexplainable weight proving that the soul has weight. You can read about this here:
http://www.snopes.co.../soulweight.asp

#6 Ron

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 05:06 AM

An effect actually can be greater than its cause.  How about a signal cascade in a cell? <_<
But that's neither here nor there, and really wasn't important.

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I agree… It is not…

Also, what makes you say the mind isn't material? 

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You cannot taste it, smell it, see it, feel it, weight it, measure its mass (etc…) or in any other way test it “physical-ness”.

Isn't it just a giant lump of interacting neurons and chemical reactions?

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No, that’s called a “brain”.

How's that different from working muscle tissue? 

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Vastly different…With the brain you can taste it, smell it, see it, feel it, weight it, and measure its mass (etc…). With the mind, you cannot.


At the very least the spiritual aspect of the mind is tied to some material portion. 

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That is true, and in the obverse as well.

The spiritual ability of the mind is impaired by damage to the material brain. 

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That is total presupposition. Can you provide evidence to support it?

#7 Ron

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 05:07 AM

Can the soul be damaged by blunt means? 

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Can any of the Laws of Logic be damaged by blunt means? Can a precept be damaged by blunt means? Etcetera… Etcetera…

Is self-consciousness spirituality in and of itself? 

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It could be, but, as with the mind; “You cannot taste it, smell it, see it, feel it, weight it, measure its mass (etc…)or in any other way test it ‘physical-ness’.”


Interesting stuff christophershow. 

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Indeed.


Although, I have to say this is less definitive proof than....idk... banter?  Thought-provoking banter, but banter nonetheless.

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No, many factual statements about truths were made:
1- An effect can't be greater than its cause because
2- Something can't come from nothing.
3- A dog can't read the newspaper.
3- I can't jump off a building and fly away.

The banter was in pretending something that is metaphysical (the mind) is physical (the brain).

#8 Greasy Joe

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 06:41 AM

Ron-- Your "factual statements about truths" largely make no sense.
1. An effect can be greater than the cause (in most cases it's arbitrary anyway because who's to say which is greater? In some cases, like a signal cascade, it is greater. One signal turns itself into thousands. But I digress, this has nothing to do with a soul.)

2. I guess that's true...

3... and 3 again. I agree completely with these statements. This captures the very essence of the relevant points he was bringing up <_<

I think that the mind is an exercise of the material brain (a function, if you will). I think the metaphysical mind is a product of the physical brain. The chemical interactions result in thought and emotion and your other metaphysical notions. The brain can be damaged and destroyed by blunt means, at which points the metaphysical functions of the brain are impaired or shut down completely.

Correct me if i'm wrong here, but your viewpoint is that the metaphysical functions are actually totally independent of the physical brain and just observe the destruction of the body, and then 'go on'.
This whole discussion begs the question "Is the metaphysical mind a function of the physical brain?". That's pretty much what I'm getting at here, and christophershow says that it can't be, because metaphysical things (?) cannot have physical causes, because 'effects' can't be greater than 'causes'. That's another thing; is the mind an effect?

Ikester- Well there are a lot of reasons for dying, and a lot of chance involved too. I've heard of the 'tunnel of light' before. I thought about it, but never really had a good reason for it (any likely chemical or physical causes), but then, dreams and the subconscious mind are really fuzzy topics. I'm not sure how many 'tunnel of light' occurrences there are compared to any other experiences.

That article was really interesting, although the experiments were strange at best. Unfortunately, replications of his tests with modern equipment probably won't be happening anytime soon...

#9 Javabean

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 10:49 AM

My 2 cents worth.

If the brain is just the remote control the soul uses to control the body, then at what point does the soul lose responsibility for the bodies actions? If it can shown that the majority of sociopaths lack brain function in a specific part of the brain, then does this mean that the soul is not responsible if that part of the brain is underdeveloped, or if that part of the brain is damaged by an outside force.

Depending on what the answer to this query is, it could mean that the soul is a third party, that has no real control of what you do in life. Does this second part deserve to be tormented in hell for the actions the body/mind chose to take? Does it deserve to go to heaven, if it really does nothing but make suggestions/absorb your actions?

basically where does the brain/mind/soul line get drawn? is mind equivalent to soul? Are they separate? Is the soul attached to the brain?

Okay technically they aren't 2 cents because all I did was ask questions lol.

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 12:25 PM

My 2 cents worth.

If the brain is just the remote control the soul uses to control the body, then at what point does the soul lose responsibility for the bodies actions?  If it can shown that the majority of sociopaths lack brain function in a specific part of the brain, then does this mean that the soul is not responsible if that part of the brain is underdeveloped, or if that part of the brain is damaged by an outside force.


If a person has a mental defect that makes them sin. Then they are not responsible for that sin.

jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Good has to be known before evil can be defined. A person who is mentally ill in that area does not understand either. So he cannot be held responsible for either.

Depending on what the answer to this query is, it could mean that the soul is a third party, that has no real control of what you do in life.  Does this second part deserve to be tormented in hell for the actions the body/mind chose to take?  Does it deserve to go to heaven, if it really does nothing but make suggestions/absorb your actions?


We are born into sin, so we are automatically connected to the flesh (brain) and it's need to sin. We have to learn how to connect with our soul to live spiritually with God.

basically where does the brain/mind/soul line get drawn?  is mind equivalent to soul? Are they separate?   Is the soul attached to the brain?

Okay technically they aren't 2 cents because all I did was ask questions lol.

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Because God is not a puppet master, and we the puppets. He allows us the freewill to chose. That choice makes the determination on how we will live our lives, and our final destination.

The soul is more connected to the heart, and heart felt thoughts. Because from the heart is where our emotions come from, and why Christ resides there.

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#11 thechristophershow

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 03:52 PM

The spiritual ability of the mind is impaired by damage to the material brain.  Can the soul be damaged by blunt means?


Spirit and soul are different. Spirit is sort of liveliness. Dogs can have a happy spirit or a grumpy spirit. But they don't have souls. Souls are exclusive to humans. Souls are spiritual, but they aren't your spirit. Anti-depressants do not affect your soul; they affect your spirit. Brain-damage doesn't affect your soul, only your spirit. You see?

And I didn't know what a signal cell is, but someone above this summarized it. Interesting. I'll have to tell my old principal about that one and see what she says.

#12 The Debatinator

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 10:41 PM

How do I know that the spirit and soul are two different things?

#13 Ron

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 04:25 AM

Ron-- Your "factual statements about truths" largely make no sense.

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To relativists, the truth (or truths) rarely make sense.

1. An effect can be greater than the cause (in most cases it's arbitrary anyway because who's to say which is greater?  In some cases, like a signal cascade, it is greater.  One signal turns itself into thousands.  But I digress, this has nothing to do with a soul.)

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A cascade isn’t greater than its cause. At best, a cascade is a duplication of its cause multiplied, therefore, it is not greater, but “more of the same”. And yes, you did digress, because a cascade is not analogous to the argument you are attempting to make, it is a non sequitur.

2.  I guess that's true...

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Indeed

3...  and 3 again.  I agree completely with these statements.  This captures the very essence of the relevant points he was bringing up <_<

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Yes…

I think that the mind is an exercise of the material brain (a function, if you will). 

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Or the brain is a material (physical) vehicle driven by the mind, much the same as an automobile is a vehicle by the person. And when the person gets out, the vehicle ceases to be “operated”. Either way, you are presupposing, and are therefore making a faith statement.

#14 Ron

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 04:27 AM

I think the metaphysical mind is a product of the physical brain. 

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Once again, a presupposition; and therefore a faith statement.

The chemical interactions result in thought and emotion and your other metaphysical notions.  The brain can be damaged and destroyed by blunt means, at which points the metaphysical functions of the brain are impaired or shut down completely. 

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Or, the chemical reactions are driven by the mind communicating with the brain, telling it what to do. And, since there is absolutely no evidence that blunt force trauma affects the mind what-so-ever. Therefore, you are (again) presupposing, and making faith statements.

Correct me if i'm wrong here, but your viewpoint is that the metaphysical functions are actually totally independent of the physical brain and just observe the destruction of the body, and then 'go on'. 

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My view point is that the mind is metaphysical; “You cannot taste it, smell it, see it, feel it, weight it, measure its mass (etc…)or in any other way test it ‘physical-ness’.”; as far as the state of the “memory/mind/spirit” (this is therefore a fact, and a truth) after the complete deterioration of the physical body (after life ceases) remains to be seen. And your assumption to the contrary, is as much, if not more, of a faith statement.

This whole discussion begs the question "Is the metaphysical mind a function of the physical brain?". 

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It no more begs the question then the mind being nothing more than electrons firing across the brain. Therefore your question begging of statement (paraphrased) “ the metaphysical mind is a function of the physical brain” isIs a presupposed faith statement, begging questions of its own.




That's pretty much what I'm getting at here, and christophershow says that it can't be, because metaphysical things (?) cannot have physical causes, because 'effects' can't be greater than 'causes'. 

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The problem you’re having here is in “assuming” that Christopher is saying, or putting words into his mouth, or misinterpreting what he is saying. Either way, that is up to him to answer, as I will not answer for him. Although, I have read his statements, and believe I understand what he is saying.
The bottom line is this: The body cannot create the mind, because the mind is greater than the body. The body is perishable (due to its physicality), but there is no evidence that the mind is perishable (mainly due to its metaphysically). And this is because of the afore stated “an effect can't be greater than its cause”.

That's another thing; is the mind an effect?

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Absolutely! Everything that has come into being is an effect.

Every effect has a cause; this form is clearly self-evident, and it is analytic, in that the predicate is reducible to its subject.

1. Every contingent being is caused by another.
2. Every limited being is caused by another.
3. Every thing that comes to be is caused by another.
Therefore - Nothing cannot cause something.

#15 ikester7579

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:10 AM

How do I know that the spirit and soul are two different things?

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The soul is when it occupies the flesh. A spirit is when there is no flesh.

#16 ikester7579

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:58 AM

Ikester-  Well there are a lot of reasons for dying, and a lot of chance involved too.  I've heard of the 'tunnel of light' before.  I thought about it, but never really had a good reason for it (any likely chemical or physical causes), but then, dreams and the subconscious mind are really fuzzy topics.  I'm not sure how many 'tunnel of light' occurrences there are compared to any other experiences.

That article was really interesting, although the experiments were strange at best.  Unfortunately, replications of his tests with modern equipment probably won't be happening anytime soon...

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Why do so many see the same thing?

Tunnel of light: 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

What the tunnel of light leads to: Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

So if you are going to Heaven, what will you see along the way if that verse is true?

Example: Have you ever had something bad happen to you to where time just seemed to move in slow motion? What do you think that is? If your soul has a place to go upon death, then there is also a consciousness that is separate from our body, and time. Why? The soul does not exist in the same dimension that we do. So when the soul separates from the body, even momentarily. We will experience something we don't understand. How? Our consciousness also separates from the body. So now we see things from a different prospective (from the eyes of our soul). And because the dimension that the soul lives in is different from the flesh, and has different laws that govern it. What we observed is not explainable. So we blow it off as chemical reactions in the brain. Problem is, more than one person experiences this which means that it points to something. And that something is only explained in the Bible.

Empirical:
1) Something that can be tested and retested with the same results. Several people have experienced the same tunnel of light. The results of the near death experience supports God's word. So in a way it's been tested and retested with the same results.
2) Something that can be observed. Goes along with number one.
3) Something that can be experienced by the individual. Goes along with number one.

But the science cop out will be: Only natural evidence can be empirical.

Question: Do you believe that evil (Satan) exists? Why does evil exist? Does that also mean that good (God) exists?

Because our universe requires balance, opposites exists.

Example: We have gravity that helps hold our planet in place. The opposing force is the orbit which creates centrifugal force. Without centrifugal force, our planet would get pulled into the sun.

So if there is evil, then there is also the opposite. And like gravity and centrifugal force, there is a driving force and a reason they exist.

#17 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:29 AM

Ikester, I have long thought that the Bible seems to impute feelings to our organs. Thank you for posting the videos.

How do I know that the spirit and soul are two different things?

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Applying the words to humans, I understand soul to mean a living being and spirit to mean life-force. Pneu′ma and ru'ach (spirit) are also used to describe spirit creatures, wind and direction, or God's Active Force or Holy Spirit.

SOUL: The original-language terms ne′phesh and psy·khe′ as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.

The Jewish Publication Society of America's editor-in-chief of a new translation of the Torah, H. M. Orlinsky: “the Hebrew word in question here is ‘Nefesh.’” He added: “Other translators have interpreted it to mean ‘soul,’ which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.”

Occurrences of ne'phesh and psykhe' in the scriptures: Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21 breathing: Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21] blood Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 141.8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). human life: Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37


SPIRIT:

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. VI, p. 336) states: the nesha·mah′, or “breath,” is both the product of the ru′ach, or life-force, and also a principal means of sustaining that life-force in living creatures. ... The Hebrew Scriptures, inspired by man’s Designer and Creator, evidently use ru′ach to denote this vital force that is the very principle of life, and nesha·mah′ to represent the breathing that sustains it."

The Greek pneu′ma (spirit) comes from pne′o, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ru′ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru′ach and pneu′ma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. Hab 2:19; Re 13:15

God formed man from the dust of the ground and proceeded to “blow [form of na·phach′] into his nostrils the breath [form of nesha·mah′] of life, and the man came to be a living soul [ne′phesh].” Ge 2:7

“Everything in which the breath [form of nesha·mah′] of the force [or, “spirit” (ru′ach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Ge 7:22

“spirit [or breath, pneu′ma] of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet.” Re 11:1-11

“The body without spirit [pneu′ma·tos] is dead.” James 2:26

Psalm 146:3, 4 says that when man’s “spirit [form of ru′ach] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”

#18 Mike Summers

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:34 PM

I have thought much on with what Ron said about the mind, body and soul. I came to the same conclusion (before I joined this site). Evolutionary Science, unfortunately, does not want to acknowledge the existence of a non physical (spirit) because of their anti-supernaturalistic bias.


I tried to demonstrate the aspect of bias in my post on Aliens coming to earth. Most of those that posted failed to recognize their bias even when it was pointed out to them. They just read into the post what they ‘believed” already. Let's keep the Alien part of the analogy. If we were an alien and had never seen an automobile being driven, we might wonder if the steering wheel was causing the drivers arm's and hands to make movements. The point being; based on observation we could not tell whether the person behind the wheel was controlling the car or it was controlling him.

However, if the person behind the wheel took his hands off the wheel and the vehicle careened out of control one could easily conclude that the driver was the predominant force in controlling the vehicle. The same is true and is what goes on in the body. It is mind over matter. Our thoughts tell our muscles what to do. Walk, talk lift whatever. Intelligent control over matter is part of what we are. Our mind body configuration proves that intelligence controls energy better than randomness. If my arm for example wouldn’t respond to my commands I would assume something was wrong with the interface not my mind. That does happen. The essence of evolution is that matter is greater than intelligence. It is not. We are spirit beings held captive in a physical body together called a soul. When life leaves the body the system disconects much as it does when we are under anesthesia. But if a man die can he live again. Yes according to God because he has been recorded so that by analogy all God would have to do is stick the tape (spirit) in a video player (body)."1. An effect can be greater than the cause (in most cases it's arbitrary anyway because who's to say which is greater? In some cases, like a signal cascade, it is greater. One signal turns itself into thousands. But I digress, this has nothing to do with a soul."--Greasy Joe

The cascading signal seems to be the same as the concept of amplification. We are familiar with this concept in what we call the volume control on a stereo. Here’s a simple explanation: There are two sources of power in an amplifier circuit. The lowest power is an input signal considered an input AM signal. It appearing at position one--input. The larger Source of voltage and current is the determining factor of how large the cascading effect will be ( let’s say that it appears at position two). The input signal (position 1) modulates in reference to itsel position two causing a proportionately identical signal of higher current and voltage. This voltage and current appear at position three, the output. This “amplified” signal contains enough voltage & current to drive a loudspeaker at position three and is the height of the cascading effect. This is much like a child’s pantograph where a small graphic is traced with a stylus and though levers and pivots draws a larger graphic on a separate piece of paper with a pen or pencil on the other end of the apparatus. Therefore there is no greater output than input because output is the sum of all inputs (there were two move inputs).

#19 ikester7579

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:01 PM

It's because some deem themselves in control of anything to do with science, and all that they say is golden in their minds. So by their own thought processes, they become blind to any alternative. and will refuse to even ponder it.

#20 Mike Summers

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:41 AM

I know the scripture is not a credible source to some but it does , as you well know say what you just said.

"Professing themselves to be wise they became fools for even as they did not wish to retain God in their knowledge, He gave them over to a reprobate mind."--HB




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