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#21 Cassiterides

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 11:46 AM

There was an article on Yahoo (Yahoo linked to) how that atheists and agnostics (and religious minorities) knew more about Xianity than the Christians did.
http://www.christian...acy-in-america/

:rolleyes:

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Because most Atheists are closet-Christians and most evolutionists closet-creationists. The only reason they pretend/say they are Atheists is fear (i.e of being mocked or ridiculed). Most scientists actually embrace creation or intelligent design ideas but are too scared to speak out in fear of losing their jobs.

Some people i know at my university when they are in public make typical atheist claims, but in person when things are quite and i speak to them about intelligent design or how they got here they start to see the evidence that we were designed and not just some accident from a primordial soup.

#22 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 01:02 PM

There was an article on Yahoo (Yahoo linked to) how that atheists and agnostics (and religious minorities) knew more about Xianity than the Christians did.
http://www.christian...acy-in-america/

:rolleyes:

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I do not find it surprising. The majority of religious people just go along with their families. Those that are agnostic tend to look into different religions and the Bible and they do not find what they are looking for. Atheists tend to look at different religions and the Bible in order to explain their lack of faith.

My friends and I discussed this on facebook and took the religion quiz. :lol:

#23 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 01:09 PM

You are incorrect from the first. I did not link an article from the Watchtower about men with long hair and neither did I quote anything. I gave my own view based on Bible study.

I leave threads when nothing constructive is occurring. I have already cited scriptures and if anyone is looking for answers they can read them in their own Bible. My goal is not to prove that JWs are right and everyone else is wrong. If that were my goal then I would continue arguing.

I have also linked to Creation.com. I almost always use their articles because that is the easiest site for me to use. I have also quoted scriptures from a Catholic website that I frequently use and a Bible search site that I frequently use.

The first century Christians had a committee of men who met together and made decisions for the group. You can find the way the Christians in the first century were organized by reading the book of Acts.

The definition of a cult would not include an organization that is operating in over 400 languages worldwide is always open to the public and bases their teachings on the Bible.

#24 Fred Williams

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 10:52 PM

Um, no. I find it very odd. I also don't understand why Cassiterides is using bait and switch debate tactics, as I was unaware that this was a debate.

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I do not see a "bait&switch" in this thread. You, a non-Christian, responded to a Christian's question (Cassiterides) on what the Bible says about long hair. Cass disagreed with your take by providing Bible verses, then mentioned what JWs believe about long hair on men. Now it is fair game to ask him to provide evidence JWs believe this about men's hair. Nevertheless, since you are not a Christian yet offer your opinion on Biblical doctrine, credibility of the source becomes entirely fair game. Imagine a tea-party forum where parental rights are being advocated. If an ACLU lawyer jumps in the debate and makes their case for child-rights, it would entirely appropriate for the tea-partier to ask the ACLU lawyer to explain why the ACLU supports the right to distribute child p*rn*gr*phy. The lawyer has no recourse, so may resort to protesting that this was "bait-n-switch", but it won't save him from losing his credibility in being able to provide an objective answer.

So, when non-Christians such as JWs, Mormons, Muslims, Jews (esp. NT), Hindus, etc provide their exegesis on the Bible, their credibility in doing so is fair game. In the case of JWs, the Bible teaches to not even listen to them since their leadership has a long history of false prophecies. JWs also do not believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God, yet anyone with the most rudimentary of reading skills overwhelmingly knows the text says otherwise. Even atheists don't deny that the NT clearly teaches that Jesus claims to be God. The former atheist C.S. Lewis aptly stated that Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. There is no other possibility based on the text.

That article states that there is never anything negative in the Bible about the ability to have children. This is incorrect. “Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days!” (Mt 24:19; Mr 13:17; Lu 21:23) Luke 23:29: "On the contrary, weep for yourselves and for YOUR children; 29 because, look! days are coming in which people will say, ‘Happy are the barren women, and the wombs that did not give birth and the breasts that did not nurse!’ "


You have entirely missed the point of these passages. This is a metaphor on how bad things will be in the Great Tribulation. It's not even remotely a discouragement against having kids, any more than one should literally pluck their eye out to not sin.

Fred

#25 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 07:04 AM

I can read these verses:

English Standard Version (©2001)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," --2 Corinthians 1:3

New International Version (©1984)
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." -- 1Coprinthians 11:3

Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Christian: 1a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus

#26 Cassiterides

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 07:52 AM

I can read these verses:

English Standard Version (©2001)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," --2 Corinthians 1:3

New International Version (©1984)
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." -- 1Coprinthians 11:3

Wikipedia: "Modern nontrinitarian Christian denominations include Unitarians,Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostalism and Iglesia ni Cristo."

"A Christian (pronounced /ˈkrɪstjen'/  ( listen)) is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who Christians believe is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, and the son of God.[1][2] [I]Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity ("tri-unity"), "

Merriam-Webster Dictionary: a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus

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Wikipedia is wrong here. Firstly Unitarians are not Christian, ''Many Unitarians, particularly in North America, do not identify themselves as Christian'' (Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk...iefs/god.shtml). Unitarianism is mostly considered a New Age type cult, and members themselves don't call themselves Christians or identity with Christianity (see link).

Secondly Oneness Pentecostals believe God was incarnate in human flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, so they don't deny the Jesus-God equation.

Thirdly Mormons are not Christian (kind of obvious).

What does that leave? It leaves JW's and the Christadelphians.

Both are modern cults. This is not to say all their teachings are wrong, but the Christadelphian and JW view on Jesus is not Biblical.

JW's are polytheists who believe in two deities (we all ready cover this).

Christadelphians believe Jesus was just an ordinary man.

#27 Fred Williams

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 07:58 AM

I can read these verses:

English Standard Version (©2001)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," --2 Corinthians 1:3

New International Version (©1984)
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." -- 1Coprinthians 11:3

Wikipedia: "Modern nontrinitarian Christian denominations include Unitarians,Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostalism and Iglesia ni Cristo."

"A Christian (pronounced /ˈkrɪstjen'/  ( listen)) is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who Christians believe is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, and the son of God.[1][2] [I]Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity ("tri-unity"), "

Merriam-Webster Dictionary: a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus

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You can claim to be a Christian, but it does not make it so, any more than I can claim to be a good golfer and it doesn't make it so. Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source as anyone can post their opinion there, and I'm sure JWs and Mormoms love the ability to have this access to try to convince people into thinking they are Christian. Bottom line, the BIBLE defines what a Christian is, not Wikipedia! JWs deny the deity of Christ. Anyone with a shred of common sense, even most atheists reading this, and certainly most other religions who do not try to portray themselves as "Christian" (e.g. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc), attribute this adhering to Christ as God as an important qualifier to declare one's self Christian. Everyone sees the folly of JWs and Mormons in this regard except JWs and Mormons. Jesus claim of deity was the very reason he was crucified!

We here at EFT believe that such proclamations of "Christian" status by JWs and Mormons as intellectual dishonesty, plain and simple, and let it be known we certainly do not accept such proclamations.

Fred

#28 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 08:09 AM

This is the example that you refer to of my "spamming" the Watchtower site link:

Hi,

Your religion states 'Jehovah's Witness'.

JW’s believe that Jesus Christ is a person distinct from God. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.

Jehovah's witness therefore have two Gods. Which makes them polytheists.

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You state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and so I post a link to their official Website so as to prevent any mistranslation or misunderstanding of what they believe. Why would I not post their official answer in response?

For more scriptures that answer the question "Who is Jesus Christ?" and Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs regarding Jesus you can see this article: http://www.watchtowe.../article_02.htm

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Well i will look through the links. However i don't think i will ever change my view on the polytheism equation here,

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Your attitude has taken a surprising turn from this first interaction after I "spammed" the Watchtower link. It is perplexing.

The second time I "spammed" by quoting Jehovah's Witness literature was in response to this:

I'm a Two House Theology advocate. I don't know what JW's view is on the identity of the Israelites though.

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I didn't pull the idea of quoting Watchtower links out of no where. I had no idea that linking to the official site would be considered "spamming" by anyone, or that it bothered you. :rolleyes: Now that I know I will keep that in mind.

#29 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 08:13 AM

Jesus claim of deity was the very reason he was crucified!

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John 5:18 "For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." New International Version.

Thank you for the Admin warning. I will edit my post and my signature.

#30 Javabean

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 05:26 PM

This is the example that you refer to of my "spamming" the Watchtower site link:
You state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and so I post a link to their official Website so as to prevent any mistranslation or misunderstanding of what they believe. Why would I not post their official answer in response?
Your attitude has taken a surprising turn from this first interaction after I "spammed" the Watchtower link. It is perplexing.


Cass is being standard Cass. When you showed him that he was wrong he decided to attack you. Don't pay him any mind. And don't take anything he has to say personally.


The second time I "spammed" by quoting Jehovah's Witness literature was in response to this: I didn't pull the idea of quoting Watchtower links out of no where. I had no idea that linking to the official site would be considered "spamming" by anyone, or that it bothered you. :rolleyes: Now that I know I will keep that in mind.

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You did nothing wrong here either. If someone would say I don't know what "xxxx" believes, but blah blah blah. I would link to official information from that group. Its easier to clear up misconceptions that way. Although some people just don't want to have their misconceptions cleared up because they are comfortable with them.

#31 Cassiterides

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 12:55 PM

This is the example that you refer to of my "spamming" the Watchtower site link:
You state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and so I post a link to their official Website so as to prevent any mistranslation or misunderstanding of what they believe. Why would I not post their official answer in response?
Your attitude has taken a surprising turn from this first interaction after I "spammed" the Watchtower link. It is perplexing.

The second time I "spammed" by quoting Jehovah's Witness literature was in response to this: I didn't pull the idea of quoting Watchtower links out of no where. I had no idea that linking to the official site would be considered "spamming" by anyone, or that it bothered you. :) Now that I know I will keep that in mind.

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How about you look back over your own posts in this thread. You have just pasted quotes from other threads which is quite irrelevant.

Your first post in this thread all you did was cite watchtower:

I found a good article on the subject on Jehovah's Witnesses website. http://www.watchtowe.../article_01.htm It is called Is Contraception Morally Wrong.


And that's all you do, spam watchtower links. No one else here is JW, so why would we be interested? It's like a Muslim comming here and pasting Islam links in every post.

#32 MamaElephant

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 03:49 PM

All of these are matters of conscience, but we can use the principles in God's Word to reason through them.

The first question has to do with modesty, IMO. The Scriptures tell us to be modest and humble and put others ahead of ourselves, giving no reason for offense. If a hairstyle in your region of the world is generally considered rebellious then it would not be acceptable. Being an art student, I used to dress in a very eccentric way. I thought that as long as it wasn't too s@xually enticing, too much flesh, etc. that it was fine, but we had a discussion about modesty in our Bible study group and came to the conclusion that drawing attention to yourself is by definition immodest, so I was in the wrong when I dressed in that manner.

Question number 2 is a question of balance. Christians are to seek the kingdom first and have appropriate priorities so we need to watch that computer gaming (or message boards  :P pointing at myself) don't take up so much time that your other Christian responsibilities are not being fulfilled (such as fulfilling the spiritual, physical and emotional needs of yourself and your family and also showing love of neighbor and building up the congregation). We also see that God hates violence and immorality, so we want to be sure that we are imitating Him and hating those things as well.  :D

Third question: Many people have different views on this matter. I know that God is reasonable and we have made our personal decision in this matter for our family. I found a good article on the subject on Jehovah's Witnesses website. http://www.watchtowe.../article_01.htm It is called Is Contraception Morally Wrong.

Here is a good quote from that: 

* Is there anything sinful about S@xual relations between husband and wife?—Proverbs 5:15, 18, 19.
* What should Christians bear in mind if they use contraceptives?—Exodus 21:22, 23.
* How should others view married couples who use contraceptives?—Romans 14:4, 10-13.
HTH!

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Your first post in this thread all you did was cite watchtower:

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Really?

#33 Javabean

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:14 PM

Your first post in this thread all you did was cite watchtower:

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That is a fabrication Cass, and you know it. She posted a wall of text that also had that 1 link from watchtower. Does your hatred blind you to everything she says because she is a JW?

How about you admit you're wrong, and address the things she says that don't reference watchtower?

You could even just say civilly "MamaElaphant, I would rather we keep the discussion based on the Bible itself rather than link to JW literature." And I am positive that she would have said "That's fine" and been done with it.

Seriously, when you have to teach manners to a Christian there is something wrong...

#34 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:40 PM

How about you admit you're wrong, and address the things she says that don't reference watchtower? 

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What is odd is that at first Cass did address what I said that didn't reference the Watchtower, the part about video games.

You could even just say civilly "MamaElaphant, I would rather we keep the discussion based on the Bible itself rather than link to JW literature."  And I am positive that she would have said "That's fine"  and been done with it.

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Yes.

#35 Geode

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:44 PM

That is a fabrication Cass, and you know it.  She posted a wall of text that also had that 1 link from watchtower.  Does your hatred blind you to everything she says because she is a JW?

How about you admit you're wrong, and address the things she says that don't reference watchtower? 

You could even just say civilly "MamaElaphant, I would rather we keep the discussion based on the Bible itself rather than link to JW literature."  And I am positive that she would have said "That's fine"  and been done with it.

Seriously, when you have to teach manners to a Christian there is something wrong...

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The link was to a discussion in the Watchtower positing viewpoints with backing from the Bible. I am pretty sure that Christians posting on the board that are not JWs would agree with much of what was said there. Would I agree with everything at that site? Probably not. Does that make what was linked useless in such discussions? I would say this is not the case. I have not found a sect of Christianity yet that does not error at times. I think most basically accept the good moral teachings of Christ as well. Personally I found it interesting to read about a subject from a JW point of view.

#36 Cassiterides

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 05:41 AM

Does your hatred blind you to everything she says because she is a JW?


I highly doubt they are a real JW. I've stumbled across numerous hints they they aren't, a few examples:

1. They claimed to have a 'facebook' page, yet real JW's are in contrast strict about who they socialise with - they only stick with their own community. Further researching this on the net reveals numerous links where JW's are saying not to use Facebook or other socialising networks. Yet, Mamaelephant seems to be using these sites.

2. Their name 'MamaElephant', certianly doesn't seem like a name a typical JW would use. It's sounds like a comic/slang name. Also their language ''LOL!'' ''HTH'' ''IMO'' and other internet slang/neologisms is not typical of a JW.

3. They don't know anything about the history of the JW's. In this thread, and others when i brought up about former JW beliefs and early history, MamaElephant had to use searchengines to look up JW's beliefs.

4. Their posts on this site are confusing, and mostly spam posts. For example most of their posts are just one-liners (actually against forum rules).

5. When they loose a debate (as they lost against Fred on Jesus is God) they resort to leaving, or just spamming watchtower links.

6. Their signiture is weird. It's as if they are trying to convince us they are legit.

Mamaelephant is not a JW. I highly suspect they are some sort of ''cloak and dagger'' (atheist) who came to this site posing as a JW/Christian.

#37 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 08:54 AM

I will encourage you to read over the board rules:

We will be looking for  repeated cases of red-herrings, quibbling over terms (equivocation), strawmen, false allegations, and other devices contrary to honest debate.

You are once again claiming to know more about JWs than I do. You don't. If I was a cloak and dagger atheist why on earth would I claim to be a JW, it certainly doesn't help me to gain a foothold in this community.

You have been repeatedly accusing members of this board of misrepresenting their world view. I am not unique in this attack. I think that considering your unorthodox beliefs you would be throwing accusations around less than that.

I will also remind you that the board owner does not wish to have a discussion of JW beliefs taking up the band-width.

#38 AFJ

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 09:47 AM

All of these are matters of conscience, but we can use the principles in God's Word to reason through them.

The first question has to do with modesty, IMO. The Scriptures tell us to be modest and humble and put others ahead of ourselves, giving no reason for offense. If a hairstyle in your region of the world is generally considered rebellious then it would not be acceptable. Being an art student, I used to dress in a very eccentric way. I thought that as long as it wasn't too s@xually enticing, too much flesh, etc. that it was fine, but we had a discussion about modesty in our Bible study group and came to the conclusion that drawing attention to yourself is by definition immodest, so I was in the wrong when I dressed in that manner.

Question number 2 is a question of balance. Christians are to seek the kingdom first and have appropriate priorities so we need to watch that computer gaming (or message boards  :) pointing at myself) don't take up so much time that your other Christian responsibilities are not being fulfilled (such as fulfilling the spiritual, physical and emotional needs of yourself and your family and also showing love of neighbor and building up the congregation). We also see that God hates violence and immorality, so we want to be sure that we are imitating Him and hating those things as well.  :)

Third question: Many people have different views on this matter. I know that God is reasonable and we have made our personal decision in this matter for our family. I found a good article on the subject on Jehovah's Witnesses website. http://www.watchtowe.../article_01.htm It is called Is Contraception Morally Wrong.

Here is a good quote from that:    

* Is there anything sinful about S@xual relations between husband and wife?—Proverbs 5:15, 18, 19.
* What should Christians bear in mind if they use contraceptives?—Exodus 21:22, 23.
* How should others view married couples who use contraceptives?—Romans 14:4, 10-13.
HTH!

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I think this is a well rounded and knowledgable answer. However, we are also commanded not to judge each other over "doubtful disputations." SO if we see a Christian with long hair, who plays video games, or uses contraception--we should distinguish whether we are judging, or whether we have a legitimate concern about a fellow believer.

No.1 I think the attitude of the heart is revealed by appearance, (e.g. long hair, saggy pants, revealing attire) but may be because the Christian is...
a. ignorant of God's word
b. not being watchful, or
c. a young Christian and the Lord is pinpointing other areas of his or her character.

No. 2 I believe it depends on the amount of evil in the games. If a "Christian" does not have enough spiritual discernment to see that watching murder, rape, lustful or lewd scenes, or continual foul language is wrong--I would say the person is in need of prayer. Playing sports or other "borderline" things, such as bloodless war or weapons may not bring you closer to God, but I don't knowif one would call it sin--unless it is taking too much of your time--a matter of conscience.

No. 3 Between a couple and God.

#39 Cassiterides

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:26 AM

I will encourage you to read over the board rules:
You are once again claiming to know more about JWs than I do. You don't. If I was a cloak and dagger atheist why on earth would I claim to be a JW, it certainly doesn't help me to gain a foothold in this community.

You have been repeatedly accusing members of this board of misrepresenting their world view. I am not unique in this attack. I think that considering your unorthodox beliefs you would be throwing accusations around less than that.

I will also remind you that the board owner does not wish to have a discussion of JW beliefs taking up the band-width.

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The Board owner has already refuted your accusations made in this thread.

I do not see a "bait&switch" in this thread. You, a non-Christian, responded to  a Christian's question (Cassiterides) on what the Bible says about long hair.


My OP asked for Bible answers. I didn't ask for a JW to come here and spam links. You shouldn't have posted here. Anyway it's for the best that i now just block/ignore you, i will leave it to the mods to discover that you are a fake.

#40 Cassiterides

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 12:44 PM

The link was to a discussion in the Watchtower positing viewpoints with backing from the Bible. I am pretty sure that Christians posting on the board that are not JWs would agree with much of what was said there. Would I agree with everything at that site? Probably not. Does that make what was linked useless in such discussions? I would say this is not the case. I have not found a sect of Christianity yet  that does not error at times. I think most basically accept the good moral teachings of Christ as well. Personally I found it interesting to read about a subject from a JW point of view.

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But as others have pointed out (in this thread & others), JW's are not Christians. They are a modern cult. Posting JW links is like posting Rastafarian literature, it means nothing and has no Biblical basis. The fact JW's had to print their own Bible translation says it all.




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