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#1 Inferno

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 07:21 AM

Hello everybody.

I'm Inferno. The name is not derived from another name for Hell, even though I'll surely end up there if I am incorrect, but rather from one of my favorite songs, "Inferno - Unleash the Fire" by the American Progressive Metal Band Symphony X.

I am currently 20 years old and study History and Geography in Austria. I've been raised Roman Catholic but when I was roughly 12 I just couldn't reconcile reality with any religion anymore. I am now an Anti-Theist, in that respect. (Much like Christopher Hitchens.)

I have always tried to stay up to date with all of science and ideas challenging the current scientific standards so obviously the whole "Evolution vs Creation" debate caught my attention early on. (Even though it is a non-issue here.)

I hope that I can, in due time, have a nice discussion with you all but I will start off with some questions. (In another thread obviously.)

I hope that we will have a nice exchange of ideas,
Inferno.

#2 Ron

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:57 AM

Hello everybody.

I'm Inferno. The name is not derived from another name for Hell, even though I'll surely end up there if I am incorrect, but rather from one of my favorite songs, "Inferno - Unleash the Fire" by the American Progressive Metal Band Symphony X.

I am currently 20 years old and study History and Geography in Austria. I've been raised Roman Catholic but when I was roughly 12 I just couldn't reconcile reality with any religion anymore. I am now an Anti-Theist, in that respect. (Much like Christopher Hitchens.)

I have always tried to stay up to date with all of science and ideas challenging the current scientific standards so obviously the whole "Evolution vs Creation" debate caught my attention early on. (Even though it is a non-issue here.)

I hope that I can, in due time, have a nice discussion with you all but I will start off with some questions. (In another thread obviously.)

I hope that we will have a nice exchange of ideas,
Inferno.

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Welcome Inferno. I am a student of history as well.

Three things:

1- I also hope you have some nice discussions and exchange of ideas here as well. Please, just adhere to the forum rules.
2- I have yet to meet a 12 to 25 year old who could reconcile reality with anything but their desires. Including myself at that age.
3- An "anti theist" is just another word for atheist. Just a point of clarification...

#3 Inferno

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 11:14 AM

Thanks for the warm welcome you two. :)

I'm sorry that I already have to disagree with you though, Ron.

An Atheist is not the same as an Anti-Theist, there is a clear distinction. An Atheist is someone who is defined as someone "lacking a belief in God", with a crucial add-on missing, namely "who would like God to exist".
An Anti-Theist would have the same first part in their definition ("lacking a belief in God") but the second part would be quite different. ("Even if God were to exist, an Anti-Theist would not be happy.")
Basically as an Atheist, I would just say that there's not enough evidence for a God but that I would be happy for one to exist. (Heaven, etc.)
As an Anti-Theist however, I would say that there's not enough evidence for a God but that I would be extremely annoyed if a God were to exist. That's not because I hate God (I don't know God so how can I hate it?) but because all of the various Gods I have studied up to this point (Be it the Christian one, Muslim, Jew or one of the Hindu, Norse, Egyptian, Zoroastrian, etc.) seem to be deeply immoral concepts.

I thoroughly agree with you though that many people only reconcile reality with their desires. That's why I try to look at all the available data, analyze it as good as I can and then make up my mind. I try to (although it doesn't always work) keep an open mind as new evidence comes along. In short: I do my best. :P

#4 Bex

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 03:56 PM

Hello everybody.

I'm Inferno. The name is not derived from another name for Hell, even though I'll surely end up there if I am incorrect, but rather from one of my favorite songs, "Inferno - Unleash the Fire" by the American Progressive Metal Band Symphony X.

I am currently 20 years old and study History and Geography in Austria. I've been raised Roman Catholic but when I was roughly 12 I just couldn't reconcile reality with any religion anymore. I am now an Anti-Theist, in that respect. (Much like Christopher Hitchens.)

I have always tried to stay up to date with all of science and ideas challenging the current scientific standards so obviously the whole "Evolution vs Creation" debate caught my attention early on. (Even though it is a non-issue here.)

I hope that I can, in due time, have a nice discussion with you all but I will start off with some questions. (In another thread obviously.)

I hope that we will have a nice exchange of ideas,
Inferno.

View Post


Hi Inferno, welcome to the forum. :P

I pray that God will lead you to the truth. He, more than any of us, would not wish you to wind up seperated from Him for all eternity! He works on us everyday of our lives. And he worked on me too for years and still does. He sent His only Son to die on our behalf, shed His blood, in order to cleanse us from our sin, remove our guilt and unite us with Himself.

Unfortunately the reality of Hell has been explained throughout scripture so many times, as to leave one in no doubt about the intent of Christ to warn us many times over. The reality of eternal seperation from God is not PAINLESS, but it is rather an unspeakable agony/reality to be finally and completely seperated from our Lord forever, just as our soul is eternal, as is the torment from the final and eternal split from our very Creator.

It is wrong to waterdown, omit, or give new-age interpretations, because they "sound much nicer". If we do not preach the truth, then we will answer to Christ. Despite the fact we may not like to read such things, or consider their realities, there it is. Christ wishes none of us go there and we are called continually to turn away from wickedness, repent and receive His forgiveness and reconcile with Him.

Even if you don't believe, which is your choice, you do deserve to hear it from the "horse's mouth" so to speak from the many references throughout scripture dealing with this subject, which becomes then impossible to deny when one hears the descriptions, which are emphasized and repeated throughout.

As this is supposed to be a welcome thread, I will leave it at that.

Anyway, again welcome!

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 04:38 PM

Welcome, I can tell it's going to be interesting.

Question: If you already made your decision, what is the point of debating it?

#6 Ron

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 04:51 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome you two. :)

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Absolutely :)


I'm sorry that I already have to disagree with you though, Ron.

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Not to worry, it was expected.


An Atheist is not the same as an Anti-Theist, there is a clear distinction. An Atheist is someone who is defined as someone "lacking a belief in God", with a crucial add-on missing, namely "who would like God to exist".
An Anti-Theist would have the same first part in their definition ("lacking a belief in God") but the second part would be quite different. ("Even if God were to exist, an Anti-Theist would not be happy.")
Basically as an Atheist, I would just say that there's not enough evidence for a God but that I would be happy for one to exist. (Heaven, etc.)
As an Anti-Theist however, I would say that there's not enough evidence for a God but that I would be extremely annoyed if a God were to exist. That's not because I hate God (I don't know God so how can I hate it?) but because all of the various Gods I have studied up to this point (Be it the Christian one, Muslim, Jew or one of the Hindu, Norse, Egyptian, Zoroastrian, etc.) seem to be deeply immoral concepts.

I thoroughly agree with you though that many people only reconcile reality with their desires. That's why I try to look at all the available data, analyze it as good as I can and then make up my mind. I try to (although it doesn't always work) keep an open mind as new evidence comes along. In short: I do my best. :P

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The only thing you did was add a caveat; the anti-theist is simply a mad atheist. But, both worldviews are self refuting and foundation-less. You may want to read the links below:

http://www.evolution...topic=3001&st=0

http://www.evolution...topic=3059&st=0

#7 Inferno

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 01:24 AM

Question: If you already made your decision, what is the point of debating it?


A short question yet many points to be addressed here.
1) I am NOT decided, that's the point. I am always open to new evidence and indeed I have changed views that are conflicting with reality to be in line with reality.

2) Question right back at you. ;)

3) I am a Teacher, it's in my line of work to
a) understand why people believe fallacious things. (Whichever side is wrong here does not really matter, it's a question of principle. For example, I have to teach politics in the History course. So when people vote for a quasi-Nazi party, I have to understand their motivations just as I have to understand the motivations of people who vote Democrats, Republicans, etc.)
b ) have endless debates with Students, even though the evidence has settled the matter once and for all. I view roughly 90% of the whole "Evolution vs Creation" issue as a simple matter of misinformation, as I hope to demonstrate in the near future. Indeed, I have already started it with my thread on "Theories, Laws, Facts, etc."

4) The evidence seems to indicate (although as I say, if there is evidence against it, I'm always happy to see it) that evolution is indeed happening. It advances medicine (again, as I intend to show) and other fields in ways we couldn't have imagined 100 years ago and an understanding of evolutionary theory improves our standard of living. Combine that with point three and you will see a reason here: Evidence, no matter where it leads, must prevail, because only evidence can advance our species.

The only thing you did was add a caveat; the anti-theist is simply a mad atheist.


"How do you know?" seems to be a good question here. Unless you can see into my mind, this is an unfounded statement. (And if you CAN see into my mind, don't open the door to your right, it contains all the naughty stuff! :P )
Why should I be mad at a non-existent being? But in any case, I'll hopefully go into that in due time, I want to focus on one thread at a time and I have already posted that one.






Edited the B) into b )

Edited by Inferno, 20 October 2010 - 01:25 AM.


#8 ikester7579

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:45 AM

A short question yet many points to be addressed here.
1) I am NOT decided, that's the point. I am always open to new evidence and indeed I have changed views that are conflicting with reality to be in line with reality.

2) Question right back at you. ;)


Even though it is always said that evolution is not religion, evolutionists constantly mettle in religion using that theory. So even though I am convinced of creation, it has to be defended against the evolutionist evangelists.

3) I am a Teacher, it's in my line of work to
a) understand why people believe fallacious things. (Whichever side is wrong here does not really matter, it's a question of principle. For example, I have to teach politics in the History course. So when people vote for a quasi-Nazi party, I have to understand their motivations just as I have to understand the motivations of people who vote Democrats, Republicans, etc.)
b ) have endless debates with Students, even though the evidence has settled the matter once and for all. I view roughly 90% of the whole "Evolution vs Creation" issue as a simple matter of misinformation, as I hope to demonstrate in the near future. Indeed, I have already started it with my thread on "Theories, Laws, Facts, etc."


If you are 90% there, and only believe what other evolutionists tell you. Then you are not open minded to new alternative evidence or ideas..

4) The evidence seems to indicate (although as I say, if there is evidence against it, I'm always happy to see it) that evolution is indeed happening. It advances medicine (again, as I intend to show) and other fields in ways we couldn't have imagined 100 years ago and an understanding of evolutionary theory improves our standard of living. Combine that with point three and you will see a reason here: Evidence, no matter where it leads, must prevail, because only evidence can advance our species.
"How do you know?" seems to be a good question here. Unless you can see into my mind, this is an unfounded statement. (And if you CAN see into my mind, don't open the door to your right, it contains all the naughty stuff!  :P )
Why should I be mad at a non-existent being? But in any case, I'll hopefully go into that in due time, I want to focus on one thread at a time and I have already posted that one.
Edited the B) into b )

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Micro evolution is the only part of evolution that is provable, and would meet the empirical criteria. The rest has never been observed, and never will be. The burden of proof to observe the claimed process takes to much time. So therefore it never has to prove itself empirically. But through conformity, and used car salesman tactics, does it convince the masses.

#9 Ron

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 04:48 AM

"How do you know?" seems to be a good question here. Unless you can see into my mind, this is an unfounded statement. (And if you CAN see into my mind, don't open the door to your right, it contains all the naughty stuff!  :P )

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Incorrect… It is based upon your own statements.

First- Because you said so. "Even if God were to exist, an Anti-Theist would not be happy."
Second- because the label “Anti” means “opposed to” or “Against”.
Third – You allusion to being like Christopher Hitchens. Who is obviously mad at God, based upon his own statements (I have numerous Hitchens debates)

Why should I be mad at a non-existent being?

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That is a good question you should ask yourself. If God is a non existent being, why are you even spending your time arguing against Him? That alone speak volumes.

But in any case, I'll hopefully go into that in due time, I want to focus on one thread at a time and I have already posted that one.

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I know, I’ve been there, and I’m still waiting on a cogent response from you there.


But, I’ll still leave these here for you as they are very relevant to your topic:

http://www.evolution...topic=3001&st=0


http://www.evolution...topic=3059&st=0

#10 Mankind

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:16 PM

Welcome to the forum. I'm not sure if you noticed or not but if you want individual liberty and freedom then you want to live in a country with freedom of religion. Atheist controlled countries have persecution and killing as their legacy. Maybe you want to rethink that anti-theist stance?

#11 Mike Summers

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 10:18 AM

If memory serves me I have engaged you before (déjà vu?). But what I (we) are wondering is that it does not seen rational to be anti-something that doesn’t exist? I have to agree with the poster that said mad atheist. Doffing my cognitive therapist hat I want to quote another therapist “Hate is the means we punish and destroy ourselves for the actions of others." Hmmm…? Welcome or welcome back?




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