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Matter Vs. Spirit


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#1 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 05:02 AM

Thus we have an information filled + material + spiritual universe Vs a materialistic one.  3:1 right there.

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I thought this may be worth a little discussion of its own.

There are 2 problems with this viewpoint.

* Infomation is not matter, and it cannot be reduced to it. If you only look at the universe in a materialistic fashion, then you reduce the amount of information you have to make rational decisions.

* Lumping everything under one category does not reduce the odds of it as an explanation. Even the materialistic universe is composed of many parts, e.g. physical laws, that have to be explained in terms of chance. What law exists without a law giver?

If it does, then we can just say that everything is part of God, and the the odds are even, spiritual vs. material.

As its written in God's Wrod:

EPH 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Terry

#2 chance

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 02:40 PM

I thought this may be worth a little discussion of its own.

There are 2 problems with this viewpoint.

* Infomation is not matter, and it cannot be reduced to it.  If you only look at the universe in a materialistic fashion, then you reduce the amount of information you have to make rational decisions.

* Lumping everything under one category does not reduce the odds of it as an explanation.  Even the materialistic universe is composed of many parts, e.g. physical laws, that have to be explained in terms of chance.  What law exists without a law giver?

If it does, then we can just say that everything is part of God, and the the odds are even, spiritual vs. material.

As its written in God's Wrod:

EPH 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Terry

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The philosophic question was “what is more complex, a materialistic universe or a designed one”. If you need more stuff (and I don’t mean matter and energy in isolation) in a designed universe then it’s more complex.

#3 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 02:58 AM

The philosophic question was “what is more complex, a materialistic universe or a designed one”.  If you need more stuff (and I don’t mean matter and energy in isolation) in a designed universe then it’s more complex.



The universe is what it is, and philosophical ideas about it do not change its complexity.

The universe is composed of matter, energy, and information. That's a fact..... God is the creator of the universe, and while he can exist in it and move throught it, he is not a part of it.

Any idea about the universe that can be considered valid must acount for all principles involved. Materialism cannot acount for the information in the universe. Hence, what ever your opinoin on the complexity of the concept, it isn't sufficient as a philosophical basis and needs more complexity.

Terry

#4 chance

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 02:05 PM

The universe is what it is, and philosophical ideas about it do not change its complexity.

The universe is composed of matter, energy, and information.  That's a fact.....  God is the creator of the universe, and while he can exist in it and move throught it, he is not a part of it.

Any idea about the universe that can be considered valid must acount for all principles involved.  Materialism cannot acount for the information in the universe.  Hence, what ever your opinoin on the complexity of the concept, it isn't sufficient as a philosophical basis and needs more complexity.

Terry

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I fear we are headed down the path of ‘information’ again, needless to say I don’t see any proof of it’s existence (depending on the definition). However to refocus the point I was making in the original thread of what is more complex, if a universe has more unique things in it and one the other has one, then its more complex, you state the universe is composed of:

Matter, energy, information, and god (who must still be a part in some fashion even if not in the material sense), yes?

I state the universe is composed of:

Matter and energy.

I really did not want to make a point any more deeper than that. Until there is scientific evidence to include information and God in my world view the matter must be a philosophic one.

#5 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 03:23 PM

I state the universe is composed of:

Matter and energy.

I really did not want to make a point any more deeper than that.  Until there is scientific evidence to include information and God in my world view the matter must be a philosophic one.


Obviously some people have a different opinion.

It was this analogy that prompted Norbert Wiener to introduce the term "cybernetics," which is derived etymologically from the Greek and means steersman. It is no coincidence that in his text on cybernetics, Wiener writes about information as follows Cybernetics 2nd ed., p. 132): "Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day."


Terry

#6 chance

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 07:14 PM

"Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day."

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Well since you brought it up, can information exist without matter or energy?

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 07:44 PM

Well since you brought it up, can information exist without matter or energy?


Well, actually ,........, you brought it up.... :)

Information is non-material, so it requires a non-material origin.

Take a computer for example. If you change a single byte from 10101010 to 01010101, the mass of the computer has not changed, but the information in it has. Consequently, there is no direct relationship between matter and information. They are 2 different things.

If the origin is non-material, and it is, then it must be able to exist without matter or energy.

Terry

#8 chance

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 08:00 PM

Well, actually ,........, you brought it up.... :)

Information is non-material, so it requires a non-material origin.

Take a computer for example.  If you change a single byte from 10101010 to 01010101, the mass of the computer has not changed, but the information in it has.  Consequently, there is no direct relationship between matter and information.  They are 2 different things.

If the origin is non-material, and it is, then it must be able to exist without matter or energy.

Terry

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Then the information you described relies on a computer to house the information (matter) and power (electricity) to change or move it. There is also a small change in electrical state in the microprocessor, or memory chip. Seems to me this type of information is reliant on the material.

#9 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 03:41 AM

Then the information you described relies on a computer to house the information (matter) and power (electricity)  to change or move it.  There is also a small change in electrical state in the microprocessor, or memory chip.  Seems to me this type of information is reliant on the material.

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The issue here is not how information is stored and transmitted, but where it originates from, and what it is.

Change in electrical state or not, the mass of the computer has not changed. If the mass of the computer has not changed, but the information has, then there is no way to develop a mass/information equivalance function like we can for matter and energy, i.e. E= Mc^2.

If no such function exists, then you cannot state they are the related to each other.

If you decided to use smoke signals or a telegraph line to transmit a message in morse code, the message itself cannot be reduced to any matetialistic equation. How can the matter/energy in smoke signals be equated to the matter/energy in electrical pulses?

Given that "we" required matter to store and transmit Information, its should be obvious that they are not strictly related to each other.

Terry

#10 chance

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 02:37 PM

The issue here is not  how information is stored and transmitted, but where it originates from, and what it is.

Change in electrical state or not, the mass of the computer has not changed.  If the mass of the computer has not changed, but the information has, then there is no way to develop a mass/information equivalance function like we can for matter and energy, i.e. E= Mc^2.

If no such function exists, then you cannot state they are the related to each other.

If you decided to use smoke signals or a telegraph line to transmit a message in morse code, the message itself cannot be reduced to any matetialistic equation.  How can the matter/energy in smoke signals be equated to the matter/energy in electrical pulses?

Given that "we" required matter to store and transmit Information, its should be obvious that they are not strictly related to each other.

Terry

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You do realise that electrons are physically moving along wires don’t you. And that a capacitor stores charge by the accumulation of electrons on one side and loosing them on the them other. If these processes are used in information transmittal and receiving, it a materialistic process. Go back a few years to punched card readers, ‘information’ was highly material, how has it changed in the electronic world?

#11 RockerforChrist14

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 11:35 PM

Ahh, but then how does one understand the information? What use is a bunch of smoke signals if nobody understands morse code? Just a thought. I'm not really in any place to be debating this topic because you guys lost me a long time ago, but that popped into my head.

#12 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 03:33 AM

You do realise that electrons are physically moving along wires don’t you.  And that a capacitor stores charge by the accumulation of electrons on one side and loosing them on the them other.  If these processes are used in information transmittal and receiving, it a materialistic process.  Go back a few years to punched card readers,  ‘information’ was highly material, how has it changed in the electronic world?


Heavy sigh....... :( This is really very simple. If Information is matter, then it then it must be subject the the laws of physics. The same amount of information can be stored and transmitted in thousands of different ways that each require a different amount of matter/energy. There is no equivalance between matter/energy and information.

New information is created every moment. The law of conservation of mass/energy states that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore, if information is matter, then the laws of physics are being violtated as the information in the world increases.

Terry

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 03:39 AM

Ahh, but then how does one understand the information? What use is a bunch of smoke signals if nobody understands morse code? Just a thought. I'm not really in any place to be debating this topic because you guys lost me a long time ago, but that popped into my head.


Your asking a legitimate question.

This is a very important topic in the debate since the defining characteristic of living things is the information stored and used in them.

You can start learning about information by reading this link by Dr. Werner Gitt who has demonstrated that information requires an intellgent source.

Terry

#14 chance

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 07:10 PM

Ahh, but then how does one understand the information? What use is a bunch of smoke signals if nobody understands morse code? Just a thought. I'm not really in any place to be debating this topic because you guys lost me a long time ago, but that popped into my head.

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Absolutely! And this is the key point regarding information (as in a code or cipher) this type of information is reliant on a continuous agreement between transmitter and receiver upon what the content means. Loose that agreement and the information is gone. Reinvent the agreement and the information is retrieved. Loose the carrier (the physical material smoke) and the information is gone and it cant be retrieved, ever.

So where is the information in a computer? Remove the human race and replace them with aliens and they would find no information, zero. You would have to reinvent it (break the code) it’s all ones and zeros on a hard drive and that’s is physical as you can get. Same with smoke signals, same with learning to talk. Neurons, silicone, or smoke, it’s all the same. If you disagree show me some information that breaks this argument.

#15 chance

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 07:19 PM

Heavy sigh....... :( This is really very simple.  If Information is matter, then it then it must be subject the the laws of physics.  The same amount of information can be stored and transmitted in thousands of different ways that each require a different amount of matter/energy.  There is no equivalance between matter/energy and information.

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Ok, if you believe information is independent from the physical it should be easy to provide an example of it. As I explained with the computer/smoke signal descriptions to crystaleaglesprings information is an agreement on interpretation, and information can be subject and is at the mercy of the physical world. It can be stored and transmitted in different ways thus different amounts of matter and energy support the fact that it is dependant upon a carrier (physical).


New information is created every moment.  The law of conservation of mass/energy states that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore, if information is matter, then the laws of physics are being violtated as the information in the world increases.

Terry

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Information is being created and destroyed within the material carrier, that material component obeys the laws of physics.

#16 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 04:38 AM

Absolutely! And this is the key point regarding information (as in a code or cipher) this type of information is reliant on a continuous agreement between transmitter and receiver upon what the content means.


Then it should be obvious to the casual observer that the information, and information stored in DNA and the information processsing system of the living cell did not arise by materialistic process.

Loose that agreement and the information is gone.  Reinvent the agreement and the information is retrieved.


Not really..... The information stored in heiroglyphics was unknown for thousands of years until the rosetta stone was discovered that had the same information written in 3 languages on it. Once the key was discovered, the information was able to be retireved from the heiroglyphs, but it was always there even while no one understood it.

Loose the carrier (the physical material smoke) and the information is gone and it cant be retrieved, ever.


Exactly.... Matter is only a carrier of information, but it is not information itself. If you think so, then the next time you return home from the grocery store, convince yourself that the grocery bag that you used to carry your food hoome with is food, and eat it.

So where is the information in a computer? Remove the human race and replace them with aliens and they would find no information, zero.  You would have to reinvent it (break the code) it’s all ones and zeros on a hard drive and that’s is physical as you can get.  Same with smoke signals, same with learning to talk. Neurons, silicone, or smoke, it’s all the same.


Again, try eating your grocery bag when you get home from the store next time, and tell me that a carrier of food is food.

If you disagree show me some information that breaks this argument.


You've essentially done it yourself. All of your arguments are predicated on code systems having a mental origin, every single one..... Consequently, the infomation sytsem of the cell must have had a mental origin. Now humans weren't around to create life, so it was either aliens or God. The probability of aliens beign around to do it is vanishingly small, so its a logical conclusion that God, who is not matierial, is responsible for the existance of life, and not evolution.

Terry

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 05:01 AM

Information is being created and destroyed within the material carrier, that material component obeys the laws of physics.


That doesn't mean infomation obeys the laws of physics. Show me a mass equivalnce between the statement "I Love You" written in pencil or chalk. There is none.

Take either example and erase 99.99999% of it such that its barely still readable. The mass has obviously changed, but the information has not. Therefore, information is not subject to the law of conservation of mass.

If infomration is not subject to the law of conservation of mass, then its not subject to the laws of physics.

If its not subject to the laws of physics, then its not not matter.

Q.E.D

Information is the 3rd fundamental quantity of the universe. As Norbert Wiener, the founder of cybernetics and information theory said:

"Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day."

Terry

#18 Guest_Calipithecus_*

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 07:45 AM

If infomration is not subject to the law of conservation of mass, then its not subject to the laws of physics.

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Great, g. Next creationist tells me evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics, I'm sending him to you.

#19 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 09:45 AM

Great, g.  Next creationist tells me evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics, I'm sending him to you.


No problem.... :( But you know, there is probably an analgous principle with information and its own type of entropy that probably could be developed to demonstrate the same type of thing.

Terry

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 01:41 PM

there is probably an analgous principle with information and its own type of entropy that probably could be developed to demonstrate the same type of thing.

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Yes, Shannon information theory does include a concept of 'informational entropy'. Applying it in support of the claim that genetic 'information' can never increase, however, involves taking the same initial assumption Shannon did: that the 'message' under consideration constitutes a communication issuing from an intelligent source. I realize that many creationists would not have a problem with this assumption, but it is important to understand that if that assumption cannot be confirmed as valid, informational entropy as defined under Shannon cannot be assumed to apply, and therefore cannot rigorously 'demonstrate' anything.




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