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The Kingdom Of Heaven - Lk.17:21


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#1 twinc

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 08:36 AM

so lets see:-

Within = fiery feelings,hot temper,blazing anger,scorching fury,blistering envy,burning jealousy = sounds more like the other place

among = terrorism,hatred,greed,fighting,killing,murder,assault,mugging etc = does not sound a bit like the kingdom of heaven

how does it sound like to you - twinc

#2 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 09:14 AM

20. Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is among you.”

Lets look at the context. To whom was Jesus speaking? So who had the Kingdom of God among them? They also had jealousy, etc. so what did Jesus mean?

#3 twinc

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 09:35 AM

20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is among you.”

Lets look at the context. To whom was Jesus speaking? So who had the Kingdom of God among them? They also had jealousy, etc. so what did Jesus mean?

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yes that is so and correct but given that and accepted do we have the kingdom of hell within and among us - Rmns.7:13-25 - twinc

#4 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 10:40 AM

yes that is so and correct

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You did not answer the questions in the same way that I would have. Look at the context again to decide why Jesus said that.

#5 Teejay

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 10:15 AM

[quote] name='twinc' timestamp='1293896201' post='66549']
so lets see:-

Within = fiery feelings,hot temper,blazing anger,scorching fury,blistering envy,burning jealousy = sounds more like the other place

among = terrorism,hatred,greed,fighting,killing,murder,assault,mugging etc = does not sound a bit like the kingdom of heaven

how does it sound like to you - twinc
[/quote]

twinc,

I'm surprised that this thread did not go anywhere. It could be very interesting and I would like to dialogue with you on this subject.

But first, I'm not sure where you stand? Do you believe the kingdom is within you? Do you believe that the kingdom is future? What? Could you expand a bit on this.

TeeJay

#6 Calypsis4

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 04:52 PM

so lets see:-

Within = fiery feelings,hot temper,blazing anger,scorching fury,blistering envy,burning jealousy = sounds more like the other place

among = terrorism,hatred,greed,fighting,killing,murder,assault,mugging etc = does not sound a bit like the kingdom of heaven

how does it sound like to you - twinc


God dwells within true believers even though there is a sinful nature.

The word 'entos' (Greek for 'within') is wrongly translated 'among us'.

Strongs Greek concordance; entos - entov, en-tos' inside (adverb or noun):--within.

Jesus later clarified this matter - He told Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world". And it won't be until His visible, literal second coming.

#7 Teejay

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 01:49 PM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1315180343' post='74745']
God dwells within true believers even though there is a sinful nature.

The word 'entos' (Greek for 'within') is wrongly translated 'among us'.

Strongs Greek concordance; entos - entov, en-tos' inside (adverb or noun):--within.

Jesus later clarified this matter - He told Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world". And it won't be until His visible, literal second coming.
[/quote]

Cal, just some clarification?

Was Jesus speaking to Jews in Israel or to Christians today?
I agree the Holy Spirit indwells us when we accept Jesus? But why does this equate with the "kingdom"?
Did God promise Israel an earthly kingdom?

TeeJay

#8 Calypsis4

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 07:30 PM

Cal, just some clarification?

Was Jesus speaking to Jews in Israel or to Christians today?
I agree the Holy Spirit indwells us when we accept Jesus? But why does this equate with the "kingdom"?
Did God promise Israel an earthly kingdom?

TeeJay


I am not going to answer you.

Anyone else?

#9 Teejay

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:40 PM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1315276215' post='74754']
I am not going to answer you.

Anyone else?
[/quote]

Cal,

I would like to know why you're not going to answer? I'm not trying to trap you. I just want to know where you stand.

Is Israel going to get an earthly kingdom?

TeeJay

#10 Teejay

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:29 AM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1315180343' post='74745']
God dwells within true believers even though there is a sinful nature.

The word 'entos' (Greek for 'within') is wrongly translated 'among us'.

Strongs Greek concordance; entos - entov, en-tos' inside (adverb or noun):--within.

Jesus later clarified this matter - He told Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world". And it won't be until His visible, literal second coming.
[/quote]

Cal,

I was going to write a challenge to you on this, but I ran across one that saves me some work. Please read it. We must take into consideration that the original translators of the Greek were a few hundred years less removed from the original Greek than we are today. And the final determination is based on whether or not Israel was promised an earthly kingdom or a heavenly kingdom. I will argue and present Scripture that shows irrefragably that Israel was promised an earthly kingdom.


Luke 17:21

"Within" is translated from entos, used only twice in the New Testament. Its primary meaning is "inside," as it is rendered in Matthew 23:26: "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also." However, when used in conjunction with a plural noun, entos means "among" or "in the midst of." In Luke 17:21, entos is used with "you," and from the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, who had come to question Him about the Kingdom of God (verse 20). "You," then, is plural. "The kingdom of God is among you" is best.

Most modern translations have recognized this grammatical error and translate entos as "among" or "in the midst of." Some texts, like the New King James and the New International versions, persist in using "within," though they note in the margin that "among" is an alternative.

Even without this technical knowledge of Greek, we could have easily understood that "within" is a poor and misleading translation. Christ was answering a question posed by the Pharisees, and He replied directly to them: "He answered them and said, . . . 'For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.'" But how could the Kingdom of God be within His most bitter enemies? How many times did He reveal them to be hypocritical and misleading the people? Theologically, it is quite impossible to think that His Kingdom would be in the Pharisees.

It is only after He had made this remark that He turned to His disciples (verse 22) and explained what He meant. The subject of the entire section (verses 20-37) is stated most explicitly in verse 30: "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed." All along, He had been explaining His second coming! When He returns, He will set up His Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14:9).

If the Kingdom is still future, how could He say that "the kingdom of God is among you"? To answer this, we must return to the four common traits of a kingdom: a king, who rules by law over a number of subjects who live within a certain territory. The primary trait is that a kingdom must be ruled by a king; otherwise, the country has some other form of government. A king of any nation is the chief representative of that nation. And the King of the Kingdom of God is none other than the living Jesus Christ!

Pilate specifically asked Jesus, "'Are You a king then?' Jesus answered, 'You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth'" (John 18:37). So as the King of God's Kingdom, He could truly tell the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was among them.

Richard T. Ritenbaugh

TeeJay

#11 Seth

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:06 PM

Cal,

I was going to write a challenge to you on this, but I ran across one that saves me some work. Please read it. We must take into consideration that the original translators of the Greek were a few hundred years less removed from the original Greek than we are today. And the final determination is based on whether or not Israel was promised an earthly kingdom or a heavenly kingdom. I will argue and present Scripture that shows irrefragably that Israel was promised an earthly kingdom.


Luke 17:21

"Within" is translated from entos, used only twice in the New Testament. Its primary meaning is "inside," as it is rendered in Matthew 23:26: "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also." However, when used in conjunction with a plural noun, entos means "among" or "in the midst of." In Luke 17:21, entos is used with "you," and from the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, who had come to question Him about the Kingdom of God (verse 20). "You," then, is plural. "The kingdom of God is among you" is best.

Most modern translations have recognized this grammatical error and translate entos as "among" or "in the midst of." Some texts, like the New King James and the New International versions, persist in using "within," though they note in the margin that "among" is an alternative.

Even without this technical knowledge of Greek, we could have easily understood that "within" is a poor and misleading translation. Christ was answering a question posed by the Pharisees, and He replied directly to them: "He answered them and said, . . . 'For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.'" But how could the Kingdom of God be within His most bitter enemies? How many times did He reveal them to be hypocritical and misleading the people? Theologically, it is quite impossible to think that His Kingdom would be in the Pharisees.

It is only after He had made this remark that He turned to His disciples (verse 22) and explained what He meant. The subject of the entire section (verses 20-37) is stated most explicitly in verse 30: "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed." All along, He had been explaining His second coming! When He returns, He will set up His Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14:9).

If the Kingdom is still future, how could He say that "the kingdom of God is among you"? To answer this, we must return to the four common traits of a kingdom: a king, who rules by law over a number of subjects who live within a certain territory. The primary trait is that a kingdom must be ruled by a king; otherwise, the country has some other form of government. A king of any nation is the chief representative of that nation. And the King of the Kingdom of God is none other than the living Jesus Christ!

Pilate specifically asked Jesus, "'Are You a king then?' Jesus answered, 'You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth'" (John 18:37). So as the King of God's Kingdom, He could truly tell the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was among them.

Richard T. Ritenbaugh

TeeJay


I believe I may be able to help you with your question.

Let me first start with Romans 14:17 (NKJ)
for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. (Emphasis mine)

The Holy Spirit dwells in the believer (Romans 8:11). When Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is in your midst He could be referring to HIMSELF however I believe it's more likely that He means the kingdom is IN us. For one reason He says the kingdom does not come by OBSERVATION Luke 17:20. In comes by faith in the unseen. As a believer Jesus dwells inside of us through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 3:20 Speaks about the power at work WITHIN us.

The Kingdom of God is a System. A heavenly system that supersedes the earth cursed system. And that system involves seed time and harvest. Seed of God's Word, into the soil of our hearts to be manifested on earth when we release our faith for it with our words. It's a way of operating. As believers we have been transferred into this Kingdom. Colossians 1:13

Unfortunately many Christians are not aware of how the Kingdom operates and of the inheritence in Christ that we have NOW. We don't have to wait for Jesus to return and establish His Kingdom here on earth, we can operate in it NOW as co heirs with Christ. Remember what Jesus tells us in Luke 12:32, "Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." He's not talking about receiving the kingdom in "heaven" or in the "future" because we'd have nothing to fear in heaven or in the future when Jesus returns, Jesus is talking about now.

I think there is a misunderstanding between the Kingdom when it is established in it's fullness at the return of Christ to the same Kingdom that we as believer's can take full advantage of now. It's the same kingdom, the only difference is that it has yet to be established here on earth.

It would appear to me Teejay that you are seeing TWO Kingdoms when the truth is, there is only ONE. Jesus is King of that kingdom NOW as you pointed out in John 18:37, not just in the future and as believers, co heirs with Him, Jesus says to seek first that kingdom. You see the world does not recognize Him as King the way we as believers do NOW and as we all know, the world WILL know Him and recognize Him as King, whether they want to or not, when He returns to establish it on earth. But that kingdom is the SAME Kingdom. All of Israel will return to their home land at that time but that has no bearing on how as believers we can live in that kingdom, which is IN us by the Holy Spirit, now.

I hope that makes some sense for you.

#12 MamaElephant

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 09:53 PM

20. Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is among you.”

Lets look at the context. To whom was Jesus speaking? So who had the Kingdom of God among them? They also had jealousy, etc. so what did Jesus mean?

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. They did not have the Spirit. In addition, any of Christ's followers present also did not have the Spirit, as the Spirit was sent after Christ's resurrection.

In order to understand what Jesus was saying is among you we should most likely look at scriptures that speak of the kingdom of God I would think.

And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.--Luke 14:15

For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."--Luke 22:16

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 8:11

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.-- Luke 13:28, 29

So... the Kingdom of God mentions Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In the very same account, Matthew used the words Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore the Kingdom of God is one and the same as the Kingdom of Heaven.

#13 Calypsis4

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 06:56 AM

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. They did not have the Spirit. In addition, any of Christ's followers present also did not have the Spirit, as the Spirit was sent after Christ's resurrection.

In order to understand what Jesus was saying is among you we should most likely look at scriptures that speak of the kingdom of God I would think.

And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.--Luke 14:15

For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."--Luke 22:16

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 8:11

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.-- Luke 13:28, 29

So... the Kingdom of God mentions Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In the very same account, Matthew used the words Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore the Kingdom of God is one and the same as the Kingdom of Heaven.


Amen. What the Lord Jesus said to Pilate about the kingdom of God is bottom line. Only heretics wish to argue the matter otherwise.

#14 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 08:21 AM

yes that is so and correct but given that and accepted do we have the kingdom of hell within and among us - Rmns.7:13-25 - twinc

I was trying to see if the same Greek word was used here, but there is a lot of text and I am tired. Anyone have thoughts on that?

#15 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 08:22 AM

Amen. What the Lord Jesus said to Pilate about the kingdom of God is bottom line.

I have this fresh in my mind as I am learning these scriptures in order to defend against JW teachings about two different classes of Christians with different hopes.

#16 Teejay

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 01:28 PM

[quote] name='Seth' timestamp='1315533987' post='74828']
I believe I may be able to help you with your question.

Let me first start with Romans 14:17 (NKJ)
for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. (Emphasis mine[/quote]

Seth, May I point out that we should read this in context. Paul is teaching his disciples that while they do not have to be concerned with diets or meat sacrificed to idols, Jews under Peter were restricted from eating meat sacrificed to idols for example (Rev. 2:14). So Paul was teaching that if Peter's disciples were offended (which they would be), then observe the Jewish law so as not to offend the Jewish brother. I do the same when I'm eating pizza with a Baptist. I refrain from a beer with my pizza.

Paul here was using the term "kingdom of God" as an over arching term for the Body of Christ which is us and Israel's kingdom. But as we proceed, I will show that God promised Israel an earthly kingdom.

[quote]The Holy Spirit dwells in the believer (Romans 8:11). When Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is in your midst He could be referring to HIMSELF however I believe it's more likely that He means the kingdom is IN us. For one reason He says the kingdom does not come by OBSERVATION Luke 17:20. In comes by faith in the unseen. As a believer Jesus dwells inside of us through the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 3:20 Speaks about the power at work WITHIN us.[/quote].

Seth, we are not in the "kingdom." We are in the "Body" of Christ. The kingdom is where the King is. Right now He's in heaven. But when He comes back to Israel (Israel was cut off for unbelief), He will establish His earthly kingdom in Jerusalem, sitting on King David's throne, with the twelve apostles ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel.

When you quote Romans 8:11, you are quoting Paul. Since Paul, an unbeliever becomes a member of the Body of Christ when he accepts Jesus in accordance with Romans 10:9-10). When he does that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ where we are sealed. Then the Holy Spirit dwells within us. Not so for a Jew in the Kingdom. The Holy Spirit indwelt those at Pentacost. But from then on, there was the baptism of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. When Israel was cut off, this was no longer the case. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the earthly kingdom promised to Israel. So, we can't really mix Luke with Romans and Ephesians.

[quote]The Kingdom of God is a System. A heavenly system that supersedes the earth cursed system. And that system involves seed time and harvest. Seed of God's Word, into the soil of our hearts to be manifested on earth when we release our faith for it with our words. It's a way of operating. As believers we have been transferred into this Kingdom. Colossians 1:13[/quote]

I agree that this earth is cursed. But when Jesus comes back to Israel, they will get a thousand year kingdom and a new heaven and a new earth. Yes Paul mentions "kingdom" in Colossians 1:13, but it is not the earthly kingdom that Israel is promised.

[quote]Unfortunately many Christians are not aware of how the Kingdom operates and of the inheritence in Christ that we have NOW. We don't have to wait for Jesus to return and establish His Kingdom here on earth, we can operate in it NOW as co heirs with Christ. Remember what Jesus tells us in Luke 12:32, "Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." He's not talking about receiving the kingdom in "heaven" or in the "future" because we'd have nothing to fear in heaven or in the future when Jesus returns, Jesus is talking about now.[/quote]

Jesus, in his ministry to Israel, He prepred them for the coming kingdom and the tribulation. The kingdom os heaven is like a grain of a mustard seed. The kingdom of heaven is like.... And He prepared them for the Tribulatgion, for God had planned for Israel to go immediately into the Tribulation. In seven years He was to come back and set up His kingdom. But Israel rejected their risen Messiah. God then cut off Israel. Jesus is not talking about "now." We do not have a kingdom. We are members of the Body of which Jesus is the Head. He is not our King. He is our Head. We are not subjects. We are members.

[quote]I think there is a misunderstanding between the Kingdom when it is established in it's fullness at the return of Christ to the same Kingdom that we as believer's can take full advantage of now. It's the same kingdom, the only difference is that it has yet to be established here on earth.[/quote]

Again, we are not in the kingdom. We are in the Body. We are not Israel.

[quote]It would appear to me Teejay that you are seeing TWO Kingdoms when the truth is, there is only ONE. Jesus is King of that kingdom NOW as you pointed out in John 18:37, not just in the future and as believers, co heirs with Him, Jesus says to seek first that kingdom. You see the world does not recognize Him as King the way we as believers do NOW and as we all know, the world WILL know Him and recognize Him as King, whether they want to or not, when He returns to establish it on earth. But that kingdom is the SAME Kingdom. All of Israel will return to their home land at that time but that has no bearing on how as believers we can live in that kingdom, which is IN us by the Holy Spirit, now.

I hope that makes some sense for you.
[/quote]

John 18:37 was not written to us in the Body. It was written to Jews who were promised a kingdom.

Seth,

Before you answer this, give me some time to post a full writing on this with Scripture and then respond to that. I answered your post just to give you a flavor as to what I believe.

TeeJay

#17 Teejay

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 01:44 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1315544011' post='74830']
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. They did not have the Spirit. In addition, any of Christ's followers present also did not have the Spirit, as the Spirit was sent after Christ's resurrection.

In order to understand what Jesus was saying is among you we should most likely look at scriptures that speak of the kingdom of God I would think.

And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.--Luke 14:15

For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."--Luke 22:16

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 8:11

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.-- Luke 13:28, 29

So... the Kingdom of God mentions Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In the very same account, Matthew used the words Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore the Kingdom of God is one and the same as the Kingdom of Heaven.
[/quote]

ME,

Rather than answer your complete post here, tonight I will compose a complete writing with Bible references, and let you all respond to it and I will answer any arguments.

One thing I would like to point out. Whether the Jews had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit mattered not. When Jesus comes back to Israel, there will be many who do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit. For us in the Body, the Holy Spirit indwells us when we accept Jesus (Rom. 10:9-10). While initially the Holy Spirit fell on many at Pentacost (all Jews), the gift of the Holy Spirit came with the baptism of Fire (Holy Spirit) which Jesus promised to Jews in the Kingdom. This was done with the laying of hands of someone who had the Holy Spirit within him to complete the transfer. So when Jesus returns to Israel to set up His kingdom many in Israel will not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. And for the Jews in the the coming kingdom, the baptism of the Holy Spirit will enable them to perform miracles, speak with other tongues, heal the sick, step on Texas Diamond Backs, and drink poison. "Ten men will grab the sleeve of a Jewish man and say we want to go with you..." Why? Miracles for one.

TeeJay

#18 Teejay

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 05:53 PM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1315576578' post='74840']
Amen. What the Lord Jesus said to Pilate about the kingdom of God is bottom line. Only heretics wish to argue the matter otherwise.
[/quote]

ME, at that moment in time, Jesus' kingdom was not of this world. But He was to come back within seven years and when the King arrived in Israel, then it would be an earthly kingdom in Israel. The kingdom is where the King is.

ME, I'm going to post a long writing here as Seth's is quite long and I want to save computer space for Fred.


The Daniel Forecast

Knowing that a week (Hebrew shabua) can mean 7 years, Daniel’s prophesy is very clear:

Seventy weeks [shabua, or 70 x 7 years, or 490 years] are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make and end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy [Jesus Christ]. Dan. 9:24

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks [49 years] and sixty-two weeks [434 years] [49 + 434 = 483 years]…. Dan. 9:25

And after the sixty-two weeks [483 years] Messiah shall be cut off [crucified], but not for Himself [for us]…. Dan. 9:26

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week [seven ears (the Tribulation)]; but in the middle of the week he shall bring and end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate…. Dan. 9:27

The Seventy Week prophecy was translated into Greek, along with the rest of Daniel and all the Hebrew Scriptures, in the Septuagent about 200 years before Christ. Jesus quoted this very prophecy when speaking of “the great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world…nor shall ever be” (Mat. 24:21, 24:15; Mark 13:14). The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy.

Two predictions of this prophecy are its timeline and the placement on that timeline of the Great Tribulation. First, it predicted to the very year, and to the very month (Neh. 2:1), and likely to the very day, the time of Christ’s crucifixion. Second, it predicted a final seven-year period (commonly referred to as the Great Tribulation), to occur immediately following Christ’s crucifixion.

This first prediction of Seventy Weeks (490 years) dates the exact year of the crucifixion. A command to “rebuild” Jerusalem (Neh. 2:5-8) was issued “in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes” (Neh. 2:1). Christians put forth two ideas on when this command was given.

One view uses the traditional dates for Artaxerxes, suggesting that this king reigned from 465 to 425 BC. If so, then his 20th year was 445 BC. Adding 483 years to 445 BC overshoots the time of the crucifixion by a few years. To correct for this, some scholars point out the difference in year lengths between Jewish prophetic years of 360 days and actual years of approximately 365 ¼ days. Adjusting for this variation, and for leap years and century leap years, amazingly, yields a date in the month of Nisan in the year that Christ died.
The other simpler view suggests that traditional history incorrectly dates the issuance of this command, which actually occurred in 454 BC. Adding 483 years to the month of Nisan, 454 BC, produces a date of 29 AD.

AD or anno Domini (“in the year of the Lord”) dating, common in Europe by the 11th century, began with a Monk named Dionysius Exiguus around 530 AD. Almost all scholars recognize that he was late by about four years, placing Christ’s birth between 3 BC and 4BC and His death in 29 AD. By this view, the first seven weeks (or 49 years), the time of Nehemiah and Ezra, witnessed the rebuilding of Jerusalem, King Cyrus’ emancipation of the Jews, and the completion of the second temple, dedicated in 405 BC (Ezra 6:15)

Most important in the above prophecy is that the Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble was to commence immediately after Christ’s crucifixion. Jesus was to return to Israel at the end of the Tribulation (seven years). This did not happen! Why? Read on.

THY KINGDOM COME

Some Christians adamantly refuse to admit that Christ will return to establish an earthly Kingdom. Rather, these believers prefer a weak spiritualization. But the Bible abundantly testifies to this Kingdom during which Christ will rule from Jerusalem on David’s throne.

The Lord’s Prayer: “Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Mat. 6:10
The angel Gabriel said to Mary:

“… the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” Luke 1:32-33

Then add these passages:

Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. Isaiah 9:7

“When the Son of Man comes… He will sit on the throne of His glory… Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come… inherit the kingdom…’” Mat. 25:31-34

“… in those days… I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel… Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge… The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake; but the Lord will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Joel 3:1-2, 12-16 (See also Joel 3:17-18.)

Honoring His covenant with Abraham, God will give the Jews a huge physical territory, “the land” from the Nile to the Euphrates (Gen. 12:1, 7; 13:14-15, 17; 15:18; 17:8). God promised King David:

“… I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom…. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.” 2 Sam. 7:12-12

Just as the seed was literal, physical, and historical, so too is the throne and the Kingdom. Opposition to a literal Kingdom aids those who, like the Gnostics, oppose the literal Seed (see also Isa. 66:20; Ezek. 11:17; 28:25-26; Deut. 32:43; Isa. 11:10-12 and compare Rom. 15:8).

Christ’s Olivet Discourse also nails down the plain meaning of the above “expectancy” passages. That “there are some standing here who shall not” die till they see Christ “coming in the kingdom” requires either that His Coming was a significant amount of time removed from the date of that utterance (though short enough that some would survive), or that the intervening time would be especially dangerous.

Daniel’s 490-year prophecy would put the Kingdom [Dan. 9:24], and therefore Christ’s Second Coming, about (Mat. 24:22) seven years out from the latter part of His earthly ministry. Seven years is an appreciable amount of time but not nearly enough to see the deaths of many in an average group. However, that seven-year period would be fraught with danger for Christ’s followers.

Recall that during that final seven years lawlessness will abound (Mat. 24:12), believers in Judea will flee to the mountains (Mat. 24:16), parents, relatives, and friends will betray them (Luke 21:16), and they will be hated and killed (Mat. 24:9). In fact, “unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved” (Mat. 24:22; Mark 13:20). In such dangerous times it is to be expected that many or even most would die. Hence, Christ’s statements make perfect sense interpreted literally based on the prophetic context of His day (and, by the way, the context of Mat. 16:27).

“… there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” Mat. 16:28
Many other passages show the urgency of the short amount of time left. Speaking of the Tribulation (Mat. 10:17-23), Christ concluded saying:

“When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.” Mat. 10:23

Israel was and is a small piece of land (about the size of New Jersey), and Jesus was speaking to twelve men (Mat. 10:5). Thus, He was here predicting His Coming in a relatively short period of time. After all, as John reports:

Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?” John 21:23

Further, in describing the Tribulation, Christ told His disciple “when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near” (Luke 21:31; see also Luke 21:28). In other words, Jesus expected that the Twelve would see the Great Tribulation. Jesus also said something simple a child can understand, but which has perplexed countless theologians:

“Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.” (Mat. 24:34).

Was Jesus Wrong?

What is going on here? Was Jesus wrong? Do Christians need to “spiritualize” that is, take as symbolic, all these passages to defend the Bible’s accuracy? Were the words of Christ simple and plain enough? Why then did the apostles not see these fulfilled?
Answer: Unbelief! Because of unbelief, God cut off Israel and placed on hold His plan for them. Is it possible though for God to prophesy concerning a nation or a kingdom and then to renege on His prophecy? According to the Lord Himself:

“And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.” Jer. 18:9-10 (See also Jer. 18:7-8)

Note: Modern day Bibles uses the word “relent” rather than “repent.” I like repent. A criminal relents when the police officer has him in a wrist lock. Who can make God relent? But He can repent or change His mind.

This verse is not being pulled out of context. In Jeremiah 18, God was talking about Israel and His plans for her. Jeremiah saw a potter making a vessel which was marred in his hand, “so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make” (Jer. 18:4).

Then the Lord said: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?... The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom….” Jer. 18:6-7

Some things to consider when studying this subject: Jesus came only to the House of Israel. He came to give them an earthly kingdom. Jesus was to sit on King David’s throne in Jerusalem with the twelve ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel. But first, Jesus had to die on the cross. Then He was to ascend to the Father for approximately seven years during which time Israel was to go through the Tribulation or the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. Then Jesus was to come back to Israel and set up His kingdom for Israel.

But Israel had rejected their Messiah when He walked among them. So in the first chapter of Acts, Jesus instructs His apostles to go first to Israel and Smaria (half-Jews). Jesus’ return was contingent on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Messiah. Not surprisingly, we see Peter doing everything in his power to get Israel to accept Jesus as their Messiah:

“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that He [Father God] may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” Acts 3:19-21

Many theologians wonder why Jesus did not know the time of His return when His apostles asked. Jesus replied that only the Father knows. But this did not mean that Jesus did not know. In fact, the Father did not know. Why? Because that decision was future, was the Father’s to make, and was contingent on Israel’s rejecting or accepting Jesus as their Messiah. Israel, as a nation, rejected their King. So Father God cut off Israel for unbelief.

When God cut off Israel, he took Paul, bypassed Israel with the gospel of uncircumcision or grace (Gal. 2:7-9). Through Paul, God established the Body of Christ. We are members of His body. And Jesus is our Head and not our King. When Jesus comes back to Israel, and He will, Israel will get their promised kingdom.

Not understanding this scenario, causes confusion among today’s Christians. And is the main cause of the false doctrine of Replacement Theology where we Christians today have replaced Israel. JW’s and Mormons use this doctrine.

Okay, I’m ready to entertain questions.

TeeJay

#19 Seth

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 10:12 AM

Some things to consider when studying this subject: Jesus came only to the House of Israel. He came to give them an earthly kingdom. Jesus was to sit on King David’s throne in Jerusalem with the twelve ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel. But first, Jesus had to die on the cross. Then He was to ascend to the Father for approximately seven years during which time Israel was to go through the Tribulation or the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. Then Jesus was to come back to Israel and set up His kingdom for Israel.

But Israel had rejected their Messiah when He walked among them. So in the first chapter of Acts, Jesus instructs His apostles to go first to Israel and Smaria (half-Jews). Jesus’ return was contingent on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Messiah. Not surprisingly, we see Peter doing everything in his power to get Israel to accept Jesus as their Messiah:

“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that He [Father God] may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” Acts 3:19-21

Many theologians wonder why Jesus did not know the time of His return when His apostles asked. Jesus replied that only the Father knows. But this did not mean that Jesus did not know. In fact, the Father did not know. Why? Because that decision was future, was the Father’s to make, and was contingent on Israel’s rejecting or accepting Jesus as their Messiah. Israel, as a nation, rejected their King. So Father God cut off Israel for unbelief.

When God cut off Israel, he took Paul, bypassed Israel with the gospel of uncircumcision or grace (Gal. 2:7-9). Through Paul, God established the Body of Christ. We are members of His body. And Jesus is our Head and not our King. When Jesus comes back to Israel, and He will, Israel will get their promised kingdom.

Not understanding this scenario, causes confusion among today’s Christians. And is the main cause of the false doctrine of Replacement Theology where we Christians today have replaced Israel. JW’s and Mormons use this doctrine.

Okay, I’m ready to entertain questions.

TeeJay


What is the body of Christ? Is it not the Church? Church is not a "building", it is an assembly or believers. And who did Jesus say He will build HIS Church on? Matthew 16:18 Peter NOT Paul. So says your Bible.

Gospel of Uncircumcision OR Grace? Are you saying there are TWO Gospels or that these are one and the same? Gal.2:7-9 Speaks of the commission by God given to Peter and Paul. Peter to the house of Israel, Paul to the Gentiles, BOTH preaching the SAME Gospel. You may be confusing Peter's EMPHASIS verses Paul's.

Peter's main concern was toward the house of Israel and he later learned that Jesus was taking the Gospel to the Gentiles as well. Nevertheless Peter's commission did not change that was Paul's calling. Paul's focus was primarily toward the Gentile nations. This is what Gal.2:7-9 speaks of.

It’s no different than many ministries today who “emphasize” certain areas of the gospel. Some focus on the Provision, some on Healing, some on Prophecy, some on the Kingdom, some on Grace, etc. Yet these ministries are not speaking a “different” gospel. They are emphasizing the Good News of some of the benefits received from that SAME gospel.

TeeJay, your Bible says that Jesus does not know. Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7. The Father has put in His OWN authority, not under Jesus authority. Saying "this did not mean that Jesus did not know" is speculation on your part, unless you have some verse to support that. Saying the Father did not know is more speculation since Mark 13:32 says He does. You say this because "the decision was future"? What of Isaiah 45:9-10? What about Romans 4:17? What is the future to God? You insinuate that God may have been “surprised” by all of Israel’s refusal to accept Christ? Is there any verse in the Bible that may lend itself to support that notion?

The Bible also says Jesus IS our King and refers to Him as such NOW. 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:15, John 18:37 (You quoted John earlier). Jesus says for this CAUSE I was BORN. Notice the verse before, verse 36. Jesus says My Kingdom IS not of this world. If Jesus is not King then why say “MY” Kingdom? Who’s kingdom is it, if not Jesus?

Where do you get the idea that Jesus return is “contingent” on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Messiah? Is there a verse that can support that? I’ll talk about that last.

Now let's go back to the following verse I gave in Matt. 16:18 , verse 19. Not only does Jesus tell Peter on this rock I will build MY CHURCH but Jesus adds, "And I will give you the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven…” within the context of building his Church. The body of Christ has the keys to the Kingdom and if you have the keys to anything that means you have “Access” to what it is you have the keys for. What good are giving keys to something we can’t have access to now WITH the keys that were given? What is the point, then, of even having the keys? The Church of God and the Kingdom of God may not be the “same” thing (technically speaking) but they are BOTH part of the believer’s provision through Christ. You can’t enter the Church without Christ and therefore you most certainly cannot receive the Keys to the Kingdom without Christ and/or without the Church (that you entered THROUGH Christ). You want access to the Brady Bunch’s car, tv, swing set, etc.? Well you first have to be a part of their family (the Church) THEN you receive the Keys to their house and all that they have (the Kingdom).
Jesus is talking about having access to the Kingdom now here on earth, which is why He continues in the verse to say, “and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Those keys are “IN” you by the Holy Spirit. Every believer receives those keys when they enter the Church. Most don’t know how to use them or even that they have them.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Now we come to Matthew 24:34, which I believe is something entirely different than what we’ve discussed above. Again, we need to go to the “Context” of this passage, as you rightly mention. Context is important. This verse has brought up a lot of controversy. I don’t understand why if we allow the Bible to interpret the Bible, that’s not to say there aren’t verses that many of us just don’t have a revelation about. Anyways.

In the beginning of the chapter the disciples “came up to show Him (Jesus) the buildings of the temple.” Jesus then explains in verse 2 what will happen to “these things” (the buildings) since He continues by saying “not one STONE shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

So this is how the conversation starts.

Later the disciples ask Jesus “3” questions.
1. When will these “things” be?
2. What will be the sign of Your coming?
3. And the end of the age? (which is part of question 2)

Jesus goes on to explain to them.

Then in verse 32 Jesus gives them a parable, which is basically reiterating what He just answered but in parable form. Guys it’s like this, when you see the branches of a fig tree becoming tender and puts out leaves you know that Summer is near. (Guys when you see flowers budding up and the temperature rising you know Spring is near. Etc.) My own version. 

He is simply telling them that in the same way when you see the signs on a fig tree you know Summer is getting near, in that same way you’ll know. I'm just highlighting the point by repeating it, I'm not assuming that you do or don't understand that.

Then in verse 33 notice Jesus says, “SO”.
In other words, In Conclusion to what I’ve (Jesus) already said,
“ you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near-at the doors!

I believe that was the conclusion. Then Jesus answers those same 3 questions again in verses 34, 35-50.

Verse 34 answers the first question, When will these “things” be, which is why Jesus says that THIS generation will see these “things” (the temple building being destroyed) taking place. The question is what did Jesus mean by “this generation”?
Most likely it means this society. Look at Luke 11:29.

Now was it only THAT generation that was evil while the ones before it were not? Obviously not. In verse 32 Jesus says that the sons of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with THIS generation and condemn it… (a repentant Generation verses an unrepentant one) Read verses 30-31. The point is when Jesus uses that term generation we can’t assume He means a specific 20 year generation. In fact, you can find in the Bible where generation is also being referred to as 40 years Heb 3:11 referring to the Israelites who wandered the wilderness for 40 years.

In either case it can’t possibly refer to end time events occurring within the Apostles lifetime (even though the Apostles thought it might, you can see that in Acts 1:6).

Why not? I have several other reasons but I’ll just mention a couple.

In verse 22 of Chapter 24 in Matthew. “And unless those days were shortened, NO FLESH would be saved; but for the elects sake those days will be shortened.” Now this is speculation on my part but when was there a time when NO flesh could survive tribulation like the one Jesus described? I’d say during the Nuclear age, now. That possibility is now a reality. Was it ever a reality during Jesus time or the following 70 years after His resurrection?

But that aside Jesus says something interesting in verse 15. He refers to the book of Daniel. THIS is what you must consider when studying this subject, look to the book of Daniel. The return of Christ is contingent upon these prophecies being fulfilled. There is a reason they were prophesied. You say the prophesy was intended to occur during the Apostles life time but unless you can provide some verses to show this, then you are merely giving speculation and we both know that no prophecy of Scripture is of any PRIVATE interpretation, 1 Peter 1:20 (emphasis mine).

I think I’ve written more than enough here.

#20 Teejay

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 11:14 AM

quote] name='Seth' timestamp='1315674748' post='74876']
What is the body of Christ? Is it not the Church? Church is not a "building", it is an assembly or believers. And who did Jesus say He will build HIS Church on? Matthew 16:18 Peter NOT Paul. So says your Bible.[/quote]

Seth, This is long I know. Take your time. Let's take one or two issues at a time, lest our posts get too long.

Throughout history, the Roman Catholic Church has claimed that Jesus built His church upon Peter as the rock. But that is not what Jesus was saying. In fact, there is an interesting play on words here. When Jesus said to Peter, “I tell you that you are Peter,” he used the term for Peter expressed in the Greek as Petros which means a stone or small rock. When He said, “On this rock I will build my church,” the word “rock” is expressed in the Greek as Petra which means a massive rock, a foundation stone, a bed-rock. What (or Who) was this Petra or Foundation Rock? Jesus Christ! We come across this same use of the word Petra in 1 Corinthians 10:4: “[They] drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them and that rock was Christ.”
If you examine the Old Testament you will see that the Jews never would have accepted Peter as the Rock. And over 35 times in the Old Testament the term “rock” refers either to God or to the coming Messiah. Psalm 18:1-2 states this clearly:
I will love thee, O Lord, my strength. The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
Jesus Christ did not establish His church on the small stone Peter. Rather, He established His Church on the revelation knowledge that Peter had received from God the Father. What was this revelation knowledge? Jesus would answer: I am the Promised One. I am the Christ. I am the Messiah. I am the Burning Bush who appeared to Moses. I am the true Passover Lamb that brought you out of Egypt with a “mighty hand.” I am the Rock that Moses wrongly struck twice. I am the True Manna from Heaven, “not as your fathers did eat….”. I am the Pillar of Fire by night and the Pillar of a Cloud by day. I am the Fourth Person in Nebuchadnezzar’s fiery furnace with Daniel. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending…which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I AM THAT I AM. I AM GOD. Reject Me, and my Father will reject you.

[quote]Gospel of Uncircumcision OR Grace? Are you saying there are TWO Gospels or that these are one and the same? Gal.2:7-9 Speaks of the commission by God given to Peter and Paul. Peter to the house of Israel, Paul to the Gentiles, BOTH preaching the SAME Gospel. You may be confusing Peter's EMPHASIS verses Paul's.[/quote]

Seth, There is only one gospel today--the Gospel of Uncircumcision or grace. But during the Book of Acts, there were two gospels in effect. There were the Jews saved under the Gospel of Circumcision or law. But God cut off Israel and their plans for a kingdom were put on hold. Now understand that this has nothing to do with individual salvation. Peter and all those who accepted Jesus AS THEIR MESSIAH were saved and are with the Lord. Peter and the other apostles will rule over the twelve tribes in the coming kingdom (1,000 years) and in the new heaven and the new earth. The names of the Twelve are forever inscribed on the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). Now let's look at Galatians 2:7-9:
“But on the contrary, when they [circumcision apostles at Jerusalem Council] saw that the gospel for [OF] the uncircumcised had been committed to me [Paul], as the gospel for [OF] the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the GRACE [GOSPEL] that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.” Gal. 2:7-9
Note: The KJV renders the passage in the most common manner, true to the usual function of the genitive case of these Greek nouns, “the gospel OF the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel OF the circumcision was to Peter.” The KJV translates these nouns as expected as genitives of description (describing the Gospel that was committed to each). Unexpectedly, the NKJV translates them as though they were indirect object genitives. Even if this unlikely translation were correct, WHICH IT IS NOT, the point remains: there is the Gospel for the Body and the Gospel for Israel, the former based on grace, the latter on circumcision [law].

[quote]Peter's main concern was toward the house of Israel and he later learned that Jesus was taking the Gospel to the Gentiles as well. Nevertheless Peter's commission did not change that was Paul's calling. Paul's focus was primarily toward the Gentile nations. This is what Gal.2:7-9 speaks of.[/quote]

Seth, I know this is going to be hard for you to accept. It was for me. But as we go on it will become clear. Don't accept what I say here unless Scripture backs me up. The one and only Biblical record of any circumcision apostle witnessing to a Gentile was when God sent Peter to the house of the Gentile Centurion Cornelius. There are theologians who believe that God cut off Israel and grafted in the Body of Christ simultaneously--when Christ called Paul on the road to Damascus. How was the best way for God to communicate to Peter that Israel had been cut off? When Peter entered the home of this Gentile, the Holy Spirit fell on Corneiius and all of his household WITHOUT THEM BEING CIRCUMCISED (Acts 10:44).
"Those of the circumcision who believed were astonished... because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also" (Acts 10:45). Why were they astonished? Because up to this point in time in the life of Peter and the circumcision followers with him (Jews) a Gentile came to the Jews through the circumcision of the flesh (a proselyte Jew). Peter would later get the message that not only was God going to the Gentiles, but He was bypassing Israel and their "perpetual" Covenant of Circumcision (Gen. 17:9-10, 13). Peter would later use this incident to defend Paul's Gospel of Uncircumcision before the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15).
We Christians today forget that for more than a thousand years, the Jews were taught by God that it was unlawful for a Jew to even keep company with a Gentile (Acts 10:28). When Peter told the other Jews that he had gone to a Gentile, they were not too happy about it. In fact they "contended" with Peter: What! "You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them!" (Acts 11:2-3).
Other than this one and only incident, the circumcision believers never once witnessed to any Gentiles. In fact Acts 11:19 says that they witnessed to "no one but the Jews only."

[quote]It’s no different than many ministries today who “emphasize” certain areas of the gospel. Some focus on the Provision, some on Healing, some on Prophecy, some on the Kingdom, some on Grace, etc. Yet these ministries are not speaking a “different” gospel. They are emphasizing the Good News of some of the benefits received from that SAME gospel.[/quote]

Seth, I agree we have many ministries. But we should only have one. If you have two contrary doctrines, both can't be true. Both can be wrong. But both can't be true. Failure to separate Israel's kingdom from the Body of Christ, law from grace, circumcision from uncircumcision is the reason we have legalist churches versus grace churches for example.
In the Old Testament, righteousness came through the law. See Deut. 6:25; 24:13; 30:15-16; 19:20; Ezek. 14:14; 18:21-22; 18:24; 20:13;
Jesus Christ came "only to the House of Israel." And He did not come with a gospel of uncircumcision or grace; He came with the Gospel of Circumcision or law plus works. Jesus was "born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law (Gal. 4:4-5). Jesus warned His followers against breaking "the least of the commandments" (Mat. 5:19). Jesus taught that the law of Moses must be obeyed (Mat. 23:2-3). He taught to keep "the weightier matters of the law" without "leaving the lesser undone" (Mat. 23:23). Jesus also instructed His apostles to teach "all" these commands after His resurrection (Mat. 28:19-20). So not surprisingly, we see that James and Peter were "zealous for the law" (Acts 21:20).
Jesus did not teach His apostles that law keeping was an option but as a requirement for those who believe. When asked how to be saved, Jesus pointed that person to the law (Luke 10:25-26, 27-28). Also, Jesus did not shy from adding works: "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Mat. 19:16-19).
Under the Gospel of Circumcision, one had to forgive first to be forgiven by God (Mat. 6:14-15). And in the parable of the unforgiving servant, Jesus pointed out that if you did not forgive, what was forgiven you by God was put back on you (Mat. 18:34-35). Jesus held the forgiveness of your brother as a requirement for salvation. An example is when Jesus pronounced Zacchaeus saved upon his willingness to obey the law (Ex. 22:1) by paying restitution to his victims (Luke 19:8-9).

Jesus also warned that in the coming kingdom, there was a requirement of works ((Mat. 7:20). Under the Gospel of the Kingdom or circumcision or law, the believer had to love, forgive, bear good fruit, and do the will of the father (Mat. 7:21; See also Rev. 3:45 and 22:12). Works included feeding the hungry (Mat. 25:45-46). If you did not bear good fruit, you were cast into the fire (John 15:2, 6)
The circumcision believer had to show mercy (Mat. 5:7). The circumcision believer had to be "fit" for the kingdom (Luke 9:62).
And the circumcision believer had to "endure to the end" or he could lose his salvation (Mat. 24:13).
The unprofitable servant was also cast into outer darkness (Mat. 25:30).
So after all that Jesus taught His apostles, why are theologians perplexed when they read James, a circumcision believer, teaching: "... a man is justified by works and not by faith only" (James 2:24). James was not confused as some teach. He was following exactly what he was taught by Jesus Christ.
And in the Great Commission to the circumcision believers, Jesus instructed them to teach and observe "all things that I have commanded you" (Mat. 28:20). As can be seen above, Jesus taught them to keep the law and do good works. Note: Circumcision and law are synonyms. The gospel of the kingdom which Jesus preached and which He instructed His disciples to preach was the Gospel of Circumcision or law.
When we compare Pau’s writings to the four gospels, the contrast is stark:
Paul was the first human to be saved by grace plus nothing (1 Tim. 1:16). He said that he was the first to receive mercy (Phil. 4:15). How significant this is I do not know, but I find it intriguing: The first man in Israel’s kingdom was King Saul of the TRIBE OF BENJAMIN. The first man in the Body of Christ is Saul (later Paul) of the TRIBE OF BENJAMIN.
In the Bible there is no evidence that exists that Jesus ever uttered the word "grace" during His earthly ministry! However, the words law, lawful, ordinance, Moses, command, and commandment occur 176 times in the four gospels. If we add the words circumcision and Sabbath, the total is 231 times. Yet in Paul, the word "grace" is synonymous with Paul.
At the Jerusalem Council, Peter and James commended Paul "to the grace of God" (Acts 15:40).
When Paul asked God for healing of his infirmities, he was told that God’s “GRACE was sufficient" (2 Cor. 12:9).
Circumcision is not of grace (Rom. 4:10; Gal. 5:2-3). The Mosaic law is not of grace (Rom. 11:6; 4:2-4; Eph. 2:8-9;; Gal. 1:16; 2:2-3; 5:1, 3-4). But God gave Paul the ministry to teach grace (Eph. 3:1-2).
Paul writes that in the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female. A Jewish male came under this covenant of circumcision when he was circumcised on the eighth day of his life. A female came under this covenant when she was born to a Jewish man or married one. A slave came under it with a Jewish master. But the Body of Christ is international. Individual entry into the Body is when we comply with Romans 10:9-10). By one Spirit we are all baptized into the Body (1 Cor. 12:13). In the Body, circumcision or uncircumcision avails nothing (Gal. 6:15 and Eph. 2:11-16).

Paul instructed that if you were called while circumcised don't become uncircumcised (1 Cor. 7:18, 20). “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). Paul is teaching here that if you were saved under the law under Peter, then you had to stay there. Conversely, many Christians today wrongly put themselves under the law by Sabbath keeping, circumcision, clothing, diets, alcohol consumption, etc.
Although Israel was cut off, some of the circumcision believers helped Paul in his ministry of uncircumcision or grace (Col. 4:10-11).
Over and over again, Paul writes that the "dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you" (Eph. 3:1-2). "... I became a minister according to the [dispensation] from God which was given to me for you" (Col. 1:24-26; Eph. 6:19). He is even so bold as to call it "MY gospel" (Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 2:8). This "glorious gospel... was committed to MY trust" (1 Tim. 1:11). Paul claims that "God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY gospel" (Rom. 2:16). Paul wrote that it was "woe unto me" if he did not preach this gospel of grace (1 Cor. 9:16-17).
See also Col. 1:24-25; 1 Cor. 3:9-10; 2 Cor. 4:3; 1 Thes. 1:5; and 2 Thes. 2:14.
Paul also writes that the gospel of grace given to him by God was a "MYSTERY" (Eph. 3:8-9). In fact, the Gospel of grace or the Body of Christ was not prophesied but was "kept secret" since the world began (Rom. 16:25-26; 1 Cor. 2:7, 10; Eph. 3:2-3, 5, 9; Col. 1:24-26).
So, with the above in mind, Paul's writing of Abraham being the father of those who are uncircumcised (Rom. 4:10) and the father of the circumcised (Rom. 4:12) is clear.

[quote]TeeJay, your Bible says that Jesus does not know. Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7. The Father has put in His OWN authority, not under Jesus authority. Saying "this did not mean that Jesus did not know" is speculation on your part, unless you have some verse to support that. Saying the Father did not know is more speculation since Mark 13:32 says He does. You say this because "the decision was future"? What of Isaiah 45:9-10? What about Romans 4:17? What is the future to God? You insinuate that God may have been “surprised” by all of Israel’s refusal to accept Christ? Is there any verse in the Bible that may lend itself to support that notion?[/quote]

Seth, you are correct. Jesus said many times that He was "sent by the Father." Jesus did not send Himself. Jesus wrote, "If I bear witness of Myself, don't believe Me” (John 5:31). "It is the Father who
bears witness of Me" and Moses and the miracles. In the Old Testament, a matter was proven by the witness of two or more. So you are right that Jesus was sent by the Father.
Also, Jesus return to Israel was the Father's decision to make. That decision was future. And, most importantly, the Father's decision was contingent on Israel's acceptance or rejection of their risen Messiah. Israel, as a nation, rejected their risen Messiah and God the Father made the decision not to send Jesus back. God's plans for Israel are on hold and have been so for over 2,000 years. But what I want to stress is that Jesus is not coming back for us to give members of the Body a kingdom. That is promised to Israel. We in the Body will be raptured out first.
Theologians have pondered how Jesus, who is God and one with the Father, could not know. I reasoned that Jesus did not know because the decision was the Father's, it was future, and was contingent on Israel's acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah. You are correct that it is “speculation on my part,” but I deem it a reasonable speculation. But I could be wrong? We will find out when we get to heaven.

[quote]The Bible also says Jesus IS our King and refers to Him as such NOW. 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:15, John 18:37 (You quoted John earlier). Jesus says for this CAUSE I was BORN. Notice the verse before, verse 36. Jesus says My Kingdom IS not of this world. If Jesus is not King then why say “MY” Kingdom? Who’s kingdom is it, if not Jesus?[/quote]



You are correct in that Paul refers to Jesus as “King” in 1 Tim. 1:17. And occasionally he used Kingdom. But while we are in the overall arcing authority of God's kingdom and Jesus as King of kings, we are members of the Body. We will not get a kingdom and rule on earth. Isarel will. Our citizenship is in heaven. Israel's is on earth.



[quote]Where do you get the idea that Jesus return is “contingent” on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Messiah? Is there a verse that can support that? I’ll talk about that last.[/quote]



Seth, this is a fair question. First, Christians do not take seriously Jesus’ pronouncements that “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Mat. 15:24). True, Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but He was not sent to nations. Jesus spent His three-year ministry seeking fruit in Israel and “teaching in synagogues, preaching the gospel of the KINGDOM” (Mat. 4:23). Jesus ministry was to prepare Israel for the coming Tribulation and to prepare them for life in the kingdom. Israel was to be God’s evangelical nation to the world. If Israel had accepted their risen Messiah, you and I would have had to approach God through Israel’s earthly kingdom—get circumcised, etc.

The four gospels show that Jesus interacted with only two Gentiles. The centurion with the sick servant did not approach Jesus directly. He asked Jewish Pharisees to intercede for him. In fact, the elders of the Jews had to beg Jesus earnestly to get Jesus to help the centurion: “for he loves our nation, and has built us a synagogue” (Luke 7:4-5). The only other Gentile was the Canaanite demon-possessed daughter (Mat. 15:22-28). Jesus’ disciples urged him to “send her away” (v. 23). Jesus told her, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (v. 24). Even after she worshipped Him, He told her, “It is not good to take the children’s [Israel’s] bread and throw it to the little dogs” (v. 26). When she agreed with Him, He healed her daughter (v. 27). Many interpret this as Jesus simply testing her faith. Jesus ministry was to the Jews only. Now He did interact with a woman of Samaria at the well, but it must be remembered that Samaritans were half Jewish. And even then, His disciples “marveled” that He was talking to her, a Samaritan (John 4:27). And recall that Jesus reminded this Samaritan woman that “salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22).

God had a plan for Israel which was prophesied from Genesis through Zechariah and corroborated in the New Testament—that Israel would be a light and a blessing to the Gentiles. See Isa. 59:21; 60:3; Gen. 12:2-3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14; Acts 3:25; Zech. 8:23. When Jesus sent out His disciples, He commanded them to go only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Mat. 10:5-6).

God reached out to Israel through Christ’s resurrection. God did not give up on Israel hastily. God had endured Israel’s many rebellions for centuries waiting until their resurrected Messiah could save them. Only after the resurrection could Israel fully benefit from Christ’s life and then bring full benefit to the Gentiles by preaching the Resurrection to them. The following passages corroborate this: Acts 3:26; Dan. 9:24-26; Isa. 58:8; 54:5; Luke 2:25-34.

But Jesus did consider cutting off Israel before His resurrection (Luke 12:6-10). “… for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree [Israel] and find none. Cut it down. Why does it use up the ground?”
But the Holy Spirit (“keeper of the vineyard” ) talked Jesus into giving it one more year. “If not after that you can cut it down.” Many places in the Bible, God likens Israel to His fig tree (Hos. 9:10; Jer. 24:5-8; 29:17; Joel 1:7). After three years of preaching, miracles, healings, raising people from the dead, Jesus lamented that the Gentile centurion had more faith than He had seen in all Israel.

So in Acts 1:8, we see Jesus commanding His apostles to be “witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria [half Jewish] AND TO THE END OF THE EARTH.” Remember Jesus warning with the parable of the fig tree that if His tree did not bear fruit He would cut it down or cut off Israel (also see Jer. 18).

The apostles preach to the men of Israel (common folk) before they declared their resurrected Messiah to the leaders of Israel (Acts 2:14, 22, 36, 38-39. Using the temple as a meeting place indicates the apostles consciously worked towards the nations collective repentance (Acts 2:46-47; 3:12-13).

This verse shows that the casting away of Israel was future and was contingent on Israel’s acceptance or rejection of Jesus as their Messiah: “[Peter speaking] Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He MAY SEND JESUS CHRIST [back] who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:19-21). Peter here offered the kingdom to Israel, if only the Jews would repent. For the “times of restoration” see Isa. 49:6, 8; 58:12. For “times of refreshing” see Isa. 28:11-12 with 1 Cor. 14:21-22.

Peter pointed out that this was all foretold from Samuel through many of the prophets (Acts 3:24). Why did Peter start with Samuel and skip all the prior prophets? Because God used Samuel to anoint Israel first King Saul (1 Sam. 9:27-10:1; 12:1; 15:1) and to anoint King David (1 Sam. 16:1; 1 Chr. 11:3) upon whose throne the Messiah would one day sit. God promised Israel an everlasting kingdom (2 Sam. 7:12-16).

Peter pointed out that the people of Israel were “sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed’” (Acts 3:25 based on Gen. 12:3).

Jesus was sent to Israel and Peter’s mission was Israel’s repentance (Acts 3:26).

Peter delivered the message of the resurrected Messiah to the leaders of Israel (Acts 4:8, 10, 12). Their response was the misuse of their authority (Acts 1:17-18). “With great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 4:17-18). But the leaders stayed in disbelief and were intent on their wickedness (Acts 5:17-18, 21). According to the Acts record, every level of Israel’s leadership were unanimous in their official rejection of Christ—from the high priest, to the council, to the captain of the temple, to the chief priests, to the elders, and to the scribes (Acts 5:24-25). But Peter persisted with his clear resurrection Messiah gospel (Acts 5:31-32). But the Jews of Israel were just as determined in their hatred (Acts 5:33). Peter and his crowd were not fearful and pressed on (Acts 5:42).

Acts 6:9, 12, Israel leaders plot persecution. Israel’s leaders kill their first Christian (Acts 7:2, 8, 23, 35, 51). Israel leaders extend their persecution (Acts 8:1, 3).

God’s patience and mercy is not perpetual. But His righteousness and justice is perpetual and is “the foundation of His throne.” God cut off Israel, and as He warned in Jeremiah 18, He withheld the kingdom from Israel that He had promised to give them.


[quote]Now let's go back to the following verse I gave in Matt. 16:18 , verse 19. Not only does Jesus tell Peter on this rock I will build MY CHURCH but Jesus adds, "And I will give you the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven…” within the context of building his Church. The body of Christ has the keys to the Kingdom and if you have the keys to anything that means you have “Access” to what it is you have the keys for. What good are giving keys to something we can’t have access to now WITH the keys that were given? What is the point, then, of even having the keys? The Church of God and the Kingdom of God may not be the “same” thing (technically speaking) but they are BOTH part of the believer’s provision through Christ. You can’t enter the Church without Christ and therefore you most certainly cannot receive the Keys to the Kingdom without Christ and/or without the Church (that you entered THROUGH Christ). You want access to the Brady Bunch’s car, tv, swing set, etc.? Well you first have to be a part of their family (the Church) THEN you receive the Keys to their house and all that they have (the Kingdom)

Jesus is talking about having access to the Kingdom now here on earth, which is why He continues in the verse to say, “and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Those keys are “IN” you by the Holy Spirit. Every believer receives those keys when they enter the Church. Most don’t know how to use them or even that they have them.
I hope this makes sense to you.[/quote]



Recall above, I answered concerning Peter being the Rock. Now as to the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.” Peter, James, and John had intended to obey their Great Commission to go to “all nations” (Mat. 28:19; Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8). But Someone changed their plans. Christ bound the apostles through His “authority” (Mat. 28:18) to go to “all nations” (Mat. 28:19). Later, however, the apostles were able to loose themselves from this obligation. For Peter, James, and John determined to go only “to the circumcised” (Gal. 2:9) and not to every nation. Even their converts preached “to no one but the Jews only” (Acts 11:19) and addressed their epistles specifically to the Jews (1 Pet. 1:1; James 1:1; 3 John 6-7).

Why were the Twelve able to loose themselves from this Kingdom commission? Because Christ had previously given them authority over their Kingdom ministry so that they could remain flexible to meet every contingency. Christ delegated Kingdom authority to the Apostles to bind or loose whatever would need binding or loosing (Mat. 16:19). Loosing would become necessary if God were to alter Israel’s role which He did) with which the Twelve were permanently identified (Rom. 11:19; Rev. 21:12-14). So God changed the plan and the Twelve responded intelligently by redirecting their efforts.

The original apostles, then, were bound to go to every nation by their Great Commission. Yet through the leading of the Holy Spirit, they loosed themselves from this specific duty. The Twelve agreed that Paul would go to the “nations” and they would go to the Jews (Gal. 2:9 only.

[quote]Now we come to Matthew 24:34, which I believe is something entirely different than what we’ve discussed above. Again, we need to go to the “Context” of this passage, as you rightly mention. Context is important. This verse has brought up a lot of controversy. I don’t understand why if we allow the Bible to interpret the Bible, that’s not to say there aren’t verses that many of us just don’t have a revelation about. Anyways.
In the beginning of the chapter the disciples “came up to show Him (Jesus) the buildings of the temple.” Jesus then explains in verse 2 what will happen to “these things” (the buildings) since He continues by saying “not one STONE shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

So this is how the conversation starts.

Later the disciples ask Jesus “3” questions.
1. When will these “things” be?
2. What will be the sign of Your coming?
3. And the end of the age? (which is part of question 2)

Jesus goes on to explain to them.

Then in verse 32 Jesus gives them a parable, which is basically reiterating what He just answered but in parable form. Guys it’s like this, when you see the branches of a fig tree becoming tender and puts out leaves you know that Summer is near. (Guys when you see flowers budding up and the temperature rising you know Spring is near. Etc.) My own version. 

He is simply telling them that in the same way when you see the signs on a fig tree you know Summer is getting near, in that same way you’ll know. I'm just highlighting the point by repeating it, I'm not assuming that you do or don't understand that.

Then in verse 33 notice Jesus says, “SO”.
In other words, In Conclusion to what I’ve (Jesus) already said,
“ you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near-at the doors!

I believe that was the conclusion. Then Jesus answers those same 3 questions again in verses 34, 35-50.

Verse 34 answers the first question, When will these “things” be, which is why Jesus says that THIS generation will see these “things” (the temple building being destroyed) taking place. The question is what did Jesus mean by “this generation”?
Most likely it means this society. Look at Luke 11:29.

Now was it only THAT generation that was evil while the ones before it were not? Obviously not. In verse 32 Jesus says that the sons of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with THIS generation and condemn it… (a repentant Generation verses an unrepentant one) Read verses 30-31. The point is when Jesus uses that term generation we can’t assume He means a specific 20 year generation. In fact, you can find in the Bible where generation is also being referred to as 40 years Heb 3:11 referring to the Israelites who wandered the wilderness for 40 years.

In either case it can’t possibly refer to end time events occurring within the Apostles lifetime (even though the Apostles thought it might, you can see that in Acts 1:6).

Why not? I have several other reasons but I’ll just mention a couple.

In verse 22 of Chapter 24 in Matthew. “And unless those days were shortened, NO FLESH would be saved; but for the elects sake those days will be shortened.” Now this is speculation on my part but when was there a time when NO flesh could survive tribulation like the one Jesus described? I’d say during the Nuclear age, now. That possibility is now a reality. Was it ever a reality during Jesus time or the following 70 years after His resurrection?

But that aside Jesus says something interesting in verse 15. He refers to the book of Daniel. THIS is what you must consider when studying this subject, look to the book of Daniel. The return of Christ is contingent upon these prophecies being fulfilled. There is a reason they were prophesied. You say the prophesy was intended to occur during the Apostles life time but unless you can provide some verses to show this, then you are merely giving speculation and we both know that no prophecy of Scripture is of any PRIVATE interpretation, 1 Peter 1:20 (emphasis mine).

I think I’ve written more than enough here.[/quote]

Seth, this has gotten too long. To answer this last one, suppose I could show you that Israel was well into their promised Tribulation when God cut them off? I will do that in another post.

TeeJay




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