Jump to content


Photo

Truel Agnostic


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
97 replies to this topic

#1 Seek123

Seek123

    Junior Member

  • Advanced member
  • PipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Interests:God<br />Music (I play piano, violin, guitar, and bass guitar)<br />Nature and camping (I have achieved my Eagle Scout Rank)<br />Reading<br />Friends<br />Biology<br />Much much more...
  • Age: 22
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Northwest Indiana

Posted 13 January 2011 - 01:41 PM

As I see it, the only way to truely be agnostic is to...

A. Be an animal.
or
B. Live in a culture completely seperated from the rest of society, in which you have your own language and have never had the possibility of even seeing a Bible let alone read one and recieve salvation through Jesus.

My question would apply to both situations.
What happens to someone/something that is the epitome of agnostic?

Anyone that has ever owned a Dog or a Cat cannot deny the fact that animals have emotions and personalities without being willfully ignorant. There is no doubt in my mind that a majority of dogs would sacrifice their own life for the survival of it's owners. This sounds like a characterization of a good soul to me. Will the animals that comforted me when I was in pain and depressed, and entertained me when I needed a friend be sent to hell?

I'm aware that Man is created in God's image and Jesus is the key to salvation but does that mean that even animals will become victims of eternal damnation? Or will animals simply cease to exist after death, as most atheists believe will happen to us as humans?

#2 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 13 January 2011 - 09:57 PM

You would first have to prove that animals have a soul. Man was the only creation that God infused a soul into.

gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Animals were created alive. Man was created dead and was brought to life by the breathe of life. And in turn became a living soul.

#3 MamaElephant

MamaElephant

    former JW

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1564 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bible, Home-schooling, Education, Fitness, Young Earth Science, Evolution, Natural Medicine, Board Games, Video Games, Study of cult mind control and Counseling for those coming out of cult mind control.
  • Age: 35
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I am His! 1/29/12

Posted 13 January 2011 - 11:26 PM

Ecclesiastes 3:19; Ezekiel 18:4

As for what happens to someone that is the epitome of agnostic... I wouldn't know. I don't read hearts. I think it is easy in this world to have a crisis of faith. There is so much suffering. So many imperfect men represent God wrongly. Some have had a crisis of faith and returned. Some never found the answers they were looking for. Will judgment result over nothing more than bad timing?

God knows our individual situation and he is not unrighteous so as to judge unfairly.

You would first have to prove that animals have a soul. Man was the only creation that God infused a soul into.

gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Animals were created alive. Man was created dead and was brought to life by the breathe of life. And in turn became a living soul.

View Post

I have never seen it put that way. So you consider "having" the breath of life as different?

#4 performedge

performedge

    Don - a Child of the King

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Carolina
  • Interests:Being a logician. Debating the origins controversy. Going to heaven. Taking others with me. Seeing the creator.
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Rock Hill, SC

Posted 14 January 2011 - 06:45 AM

You would first have to prove that animals have a soul. Man was the only creation that God infused a soul into.

gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Animals were created alive. Man was created dead and was brought to life by the breathe of life. And in turn became a living soul.

View Post


Gen 2:7 And the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 (H853) manH120 of the dustH6083 ofH4480 the ground,H127 and breathedH5301 into his nostrilsH639 the breathH5397 of life;H2416 and manH120 becameH1961 a livingH2416 soul.H5315


Gen 2:19 And out ofH4480 the groundH127 the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 everyH3605 beastH2416 of the field,H7704 and everyH3605 fowlH5775 of the air;H8064 and broughtH935 them untoH413 AdamH121 to seeH7200 whatH4100 he would callH7121 them: and whatsoeverH3605 H834 AdamH121 calledH7121 every livingH2416 creature,H5315 thatH1931 was the nameH8034 thereof.

It seems to me that animals were formed the same way man was. The same Hebrew words were used. What do you think?

I think, a soul is not something you possess, it is something you are. A spirit is something you possess.

#5 MamaElephant

MamaElephant

    former JW

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1564 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bible, Home-schooling, Education, Fitness, Young Earth Science, Evolution, Natural Medicine, Board Games, Video Games, Study of cult mind control and Counseling for those coming out of cult mind control.
  • Age: 35
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I am His! 1/29/12

Posted 14 January 2011 - 07:20 AM

Gen 2:7  And the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 (H853) manH120 of the dustH6083 ofH4480 the ground,H127 and breathedH5301 into his nostrilsH639 the breathH5397 of life;H2416 and manH120 becameH1961 a livingH2416 soul.H5315
Gen 2:19  And out ofH4480 the groundH127 the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 everyH3605 beastH2416 of the field,H7704 and everyH3605 fowlH5775 of the air;H8064 and broughtH935 them untoH413 AdamH121 to seeH7200 whatH4100 he would callH7121 them: and whatsoeverH3605 H834 AdamH121 calledH7121 every livingH2416 creature,H5315 thatH1931 was the nameH8034 thereof.

It seems to me that animals were formed the same way man was.  The same Hebrew words were used.  What do you think?

I think, a soul is not something you possess, it is something you are.  A spirit is something you possess.

View Post

More discussion like this: http://www.evolution...=3752&hl=spirit

#6 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:38 AM

Gen 2:7  And the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 (H853) manH120 of the dustH6083 ofH4480 the ground,H127 and breathedH5301 into his nostrilsH639 the breathH5397 of life;H2416 and manH120 becameH1961 a livingH2416 soul.H5315
Gen 2:19  And out ofH4480 the groundH127 the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 everyH3605 beastH2416 of the field,H7704 and everyH3605 fowlH5775 of the air;H8064 and broughtH935 them untoH413 AdamH121 to seeH7200 whatH4100 he would callH7121 them: and whatsoeverH3605 H834 AdamH121 calledH7121 every livingH2416 creature,H5315 thatH1931 was the nameH8034 thereof.

It seems to me that animals were formed the same way man was.  The same Hebrew words were used.  What do you think?

I think, a soul is not something you possess, it is something you are.  A spirit is something you possess.

View Post


There was a second creation of animals just for the garden in which Adam and Eve lived.

#7 performedge

performedge

    Don - a Child of the King

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Carolina
  • Interests:Being a logician. Debating the origins controversy. Going to heaven. Taking others with me. Seeing the creator.
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Rock Hill, SC

Posted 14 January 2011 - 12:04 PM

There was a second creation of animals just for the garden in which Adam and Eve lived.

View Post


So?

Even if true, they were created as living souls. Right? They had offspring didn't they? And multiplied?

The fact is that all animals are referred to as "souls" throughout the OT. They are all the same words as Adam was referred.

Gen 9:10 And withH854 everyH3605 livingH2416 creatureH5315 thatH834 is withH854 you, of the fowl,H5775 of the cattle,H929 and of everyH3605 beastH2416 of the earthH776 withH854 you; from allH4480 H3605 that go outH3318 of the ark,H8392 to everyH3605 beastH2416 of the earth.H776

Same Hebrew words. Right?

I know you have been taught otherwise, but look at the actual words.

#8 Dave

Dave

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  • Age: 60
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Central California

Posted 14 January 2011 - 06:39 PM

Man is made up of three parts:

Body
Soul
Spirit

The body is self-explanatory.
The soul is our mind, will and emotions.
The spirit is actually what most people mistake for "soul," and is that part of us that is made especially in God's image, and the part that will exist for eternity with him ... or elsewhere, depending on choices you make.

Animals are made up of two parts:

Body
Soul

Animals have a mind. Animals have a will. Animals have emotions.

They do not have a spirit.

Dave

#9 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 14 January 2011 - 09:06 PM

So?

Even if true, they were created as living souls.  Right?  They had offspring didn't they?  And multiplied?

The fact is that all animals are referred to as "souls" throughout the OT.  They are all the same words as Adam was referred.

Gen 9:10  And withH854 everyH3605 livingH2416 creatureH5315 thatH834 is withH854 you, of the fowl,H5775 of the cattle,H929 and of everyH3605 beastH2416 of the earthH776 withH854 you; from allH4480 H3605 that go outH3318 of the ark,H8392 to everyH3605 beastH2416 of the earth.H776

Same Hebrew words.  Right?

I know you have been taught otherwise, but look at the actual words.

View Post


If animals were created as living souls, then how do you save one?
When you kill them for meat, is that not murder if they have a soul?
When you eat their meat, would not that be a sin?

You see when you give the notion that animals have souls, you put animals on the same level as humans. Which also lowers our status as God's creation in His image. This is what a certain theory also does. The theory lowers our status because a Creator does not exist therefore we are animals.

The Bible does not say that Christ died on the cross to save the souls of animals, does it?

#10 Mike Summers

Mike Summers

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1790 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Information theory, electronics, videography, writing, human psychology, psychotherapy
  • Age: 61
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Detroit Michigan area

Posted 14 January 2011 - 10:45 PM

The Bible clearly is a Book about God and man. Animals are mentioned but God gave man dominion over them in Genesis 1 Under God, man is clearly the star of the Bible not animals. God entered into a covenant with man—not the animals. He gave the ten commandments to humans not to the animals. While there is no reason to abuse animals, God clearly shows we are to respect human beings above them. Jesus preached the sermon on the mount to humans. The Bible does not say that Jesus had a pet but, he did have his twelve disciples.

It is not said if he even healed an animal but, He did heal lots of humans. He even raised humans from the dead. Clearly there ought be no doubt about the status of humans above any animals. We are made in His image. He said that of no animals. Jesus is our Creator and Savior. We owe him our grateful respect, admiration and worship. He is our master. We are commanded by Him to love Him with all of our capacity and our neighbor like ourselves. He prayed that we might be one with Him. We as humans are not animals despite what evo scientist would tell us.

#11 performedge

performedge

    Don - a Child of the King

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Carolina
  • Interests:Being a logician. Debating the origins controversy. Going to heaven. Taking others with me. Seeing the creator.
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Rock Hill, SC

Posted 15 January 2011 - 06:34 AM

If animals were created as living souls, then how do you save one?

View Post


First off God is telling you that they are living souls. Your doctrine is preventing you fron accepting this.

See these verses Gen1:21,24, 2:19, 9:10,12,15,16

These are thre exact same words used to describe the creation of Adam as a living soul.

Now your question presents a false dilemma. It assumes they need saving. So I must ask from what? We are saved from Gods wrath which is because we disobey God. Is there any indication that animals are under God's wrath? (after the flood)In fact, Isn't it animals that are involved is saving us? Arent they our sacrifices both for physical life and sustenance and for spirtual life as well? Wasn't/Isn't Jesus our Lamb of sacrifice?

When you kill them for meat, is that not murder if they have a soul?


Yes, of course. But not all killing and murder is sin. God has commanded us to have dominion over the animals, and He has allowed us to murder them for food and sacrifice. He has also commanded the murder of thousands of humans. Does this language make you uncomfortable? Following Gods commands/words is obedience. Not following is disobedience.

In fact, isn't the fact that these animals are souls the requirement of a sacrifice? Their soul is in their blood. Isn't that why Jesus had to be sacrificed? He had to yield His entire soul for us.

When you eat their meat, would not that be a sin?


Scripture please! See, your measuring stick is your understanding of what God said versus what God actually said.

You see when you give the notion that animals have souls, you put animals on the same level as humans.


How so? God is a soul. Does that put Him on our level? Jesus is a soul. Does that put Him on our level? No, God's word establishes the levels. His word establishes our level being higher than the animals. He commanded/established our dominion over them.

Which also lowers our status as God's creation in His image. This is what a certain theory also does. The theory lowers our status because a Creator does not exist therefore we are animals.


The fact that animal are souls does not make us equal with animals. No, humans were created in God's image. Animals were not.

The Bible does not say that Christ died on the cross to save the souls of animals, does it?


Well, I beleive it does. Not in the sense that they were sinning against God, but they were a part of God's curses on His creation.....

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. ESV...The KJV uses "creature"

I hope you see that I am not just trying to win an argument here. My only goal is to increase our knowledge of God and His Son.

#12 Dave

Dave

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  • Age: 60
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Central California

Posted 15 January 2011 - 09:52 AM

I've written at length in prior posts about the difference between the body, soul and spirit as they appear in God's Word.

It is a misunderstanding about these three that leads to much misinterpretation about important doctrines, particularly eternal security of salvation.

Specifically to this topic, animals have souls, but they do not have a spirit that makes them in God's likeness, like humans do.

Please understand that "soul" and "spirit" are not synonyms for each other, and cannot be used interchangeably in all instances.

Dave

#13 Bex

Bex

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1066 posts
  • Interests:God, creation, friends/family, animals, health topics, auto/biographies, movies (horror, comedy, drama, whatever, just as long as it's good), music, video games (mainly survival horror, or survival/adventure types), crossword puzzles, books on real life crime/serial killers/etc. Prophecy/miracles/supernatural/hauntings etc, net surfing/forums etc.<br /><br />One of my favourite forums for information on many topics:<br /><br />http://orbisvitae.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
  • Age: 38
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • New Zealand

Posted 15 January 2011 - 05:33 PM

I've written at length in prior posts about the difference between the body, soul and spirit as they appear in God's Word.

It is a misunderstanding about these three that leads to much misinterpretation about important doctrines, particularly eternal security of salvation.

Specifically to this topic, animals have souls, but they do not have a spirit that makes them in God's likeness, like humans do.

Please understand that "soul" and "spirit" are not synonyms for each other, and cannot be used interchangeably in all instances.

Dave

View Post


Thanks Dave.

Yes, this is what I tend to agree with. I have to admit I've had an experience after my cat died after praying to God about her. More than one experience and ALWAYS after talking to God.

I'm wary of making myself look like a complete crackpot here, so I'll just say that I given the understanding by what God allowed me to experience that she did not merely disappear into a puff of smoke after her death and become "nothing".

#14 Bex

Bex

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1066 posts
  • Interests:God, creation, friends/family, animals, health topics, auto/biographies, movies (horror, comedy, drama, whatever, just as long as it's good), music, video games (mainly survival horror, or survival/adventure types), crossword puzzles, books on real life crime/serial killers/etc. Prophecy/miracles/supernatural/hauntings etc, net surfing/forums etc.<br /><br />One of my favourite forums for information on many topics:<br /><br />http://orbisvitae.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
  • Age: 38
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • New Zealand

Posted 15 January 2011 - 05:39 PM

First off God is telling you that they are living souls.  Your doctrine is preventing you fron accepting this.

See these verses Gen1:21,24, 2:19, 9:10,12,15,16

These are thre exact same words used to describe the creation of Adam as a living soul.

Now your question presents a false dilemma.  It assumes they need saving.  So I must ask from what?  We are saved from Gods wrath which is because we disobey God.  Is there any indication that animals are under God's wrath?  (after the flood)In fact, Isn't it animals that are involved is saving us?  Arent they our sacrifices both for physical life and sustenance and for spirtual life as well?  Wasn't/Isn't Jesus our Lamb of sacrifice?
Yes, of course.  But not all killing and murder is sin.  God has commanded us to have dominion over the animals, and He has allowed us to murder them for food and sacrifice.  He has also commanded the murder of thousands of humans.  Does this language make you uncomfortable?  Following Gods commands/words is obedience.  Not following is disobedience.

In fact, isn't the fact that these animals are souls the requirement of a sacrifice?  Their soul is in their blood.  Isn't that why Jesus had to be sacrificed?  He had to yield His entire soul for us.
Scripture please!  See, your measuring stick is your understanding of what God said versus what God actually said.
How so?  God is a soul.  Does that put Him on our level?  Jesus is a soul.  Does that put Him on our level?  No, God's word establishes the levels.  His word establishes our level being higher than the animals.  He commanded/established our dominion over them.
The fact that animal are souls does not make us equal with animals.  No, humans were created in God's image.  Animals were not.
Well, I beleive it does.  Not in the sense that they were sinning against God, but they were a part of God's curses on His creation.....

Rom 8:18  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19  For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20  For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21  that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. ESV...The KJV uses "creature"

I hope you see that I am not just trying to win an argument here.  My only goal is to increase our knowledge of God and His Son.

View Post


Thanks performage, this makes much sense to me! I've always felt animals are a wonderful reflection of God's imagination and glory. There is no doubt in my mind they too have a part to play in all this, including returning to the source of their existence, their own creator! Many animals are the unfortunate recipients of deliberate cruelty by people. They suffer too. They have been sacrificed for food or their blood for sin, they are put to use/work, they give comfort/friendship to the lonely or simply those who love animals. They are an absolute gift from God. But like us, they too are affected by a cursed world and therefore their natures too can be affected. However, unlike us, they are not responsible or guilty of sin. Rather it is SIN that has affected them and their natures.

I have heard of people in near death experiences who have seen their pets, or other animals in Heaven. And why not? Does God not love animals too??? Does He not take delight in them as we do?

#15 Dave

Dave

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  • Age: 60
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Central California

Posted 15 January 2011 - 06:38 PM

Howdy Bex,

Personally, I wouldn't go so far out on a limb to claim that our pets will be there to meet us in Heaven. :lol:

I do believe that all of creation, including the universe, will be released from the curse during the time of the New Heaven and the New Earth. There will be no more entropy. We, and presumably, animals, will live forever. As such, animals that are around at the end of the millennial reign of Christ could possibly go into eternity with their owners.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any scripture that addresses favorite pets dying and being transported to Heaven in advance of us. I'd be interested if someone can point some out.

Dave

#16 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 15 January 2011 - 09:33 PM

First off God is telling you that they are living souls.  Your doctrine is preventing you fron accepting this.

See these verses Gen1:21,24, 2:19, 9:10,12,15,16

These are thre exact same words used to describe the creation of Adam as a living soul.


Gensis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis 9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

Genesis 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

The covenant made between God and every living creature was not a salvation covenant. "Never" once does God's word say that He breathed life into animals and they became living souls. So you are trying to read more into the word then what is there.

Also, what is my doctrine that I would believe it over the word? I became non-denominational to get away from man made doctrines. So if you can prove what you say "with the word" and not your opinion. I would have no problem changing my view. But I have yet seen you provide one convincing word from God's word that would convince me. Would I want my pets to meet me in Heaven? Of course. But what I want does not make new truths and realities.

Now your question presents a false dilemma.  It assumes they need saving.  So I must ask from what?  We are saved from Gods wrath which is because we disobey God.  Is there any indication that animals are under God's wrath?  (after the flood)In fact, Isn't it animals that are involved is saving us?  Arent they our sacrifices both for physical life and sustenance and for spiritual life as well?  Wasn't/Isn't Jesus our Lamb of sacrifice?


Was it not the snake who lied to Eve to get her to sin and fall from grace? Who sinned worse, the snake or Adam and Eve? And why would the snake only be cursed, while Adam and Eve were cast out (separated from God), and cursed? Because the humans had souls, and the snake does not. Do you think there will be rats and roaches in Heaven?

Yes, of course.  But not all killing and murder is sin.  God has commanded us to have dominion over the animals, and He has allowed us to murder them for food and sacrifice.  He has also commanded the murder of thousands of humans.  Does this language make you uncomfortable?  Following Gods commands/words is obedience.  Not following is disobedience.


God commanding killing was judgment dished out upon this earth during a time (Old Testament time) when people died and their souls stayed with their bodies. Because judgment was not right after sin (going to Heaven or Hell) in the OT, it was often brought upon the people while on earth. So your justification does not work here.

In fact, isn't the fact that these animals are souls the requirement of a sacrifice?  Their soul is in their blood.  Isn't that why Jesus had to be sacrificed?  He had to yield His entire soul for us.


The soul is not in the blood, life is.

ev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

deut 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

Scripture please!  See, your measuring stick is your understanding of what God said versus what God actually said.


If they have a soul it would be. Scripture not needed.

How so?  God is a soul.  Does that put Him on our level?  Jesus is a soul.  Does that put Him on our level?  No, God's word establishes the levels.  His word establishes our level being higher than the animals.  He commanded/established our dominion over them.


Have yet to see you provide even one verse that says God put souls into animals. Just one verse is all I ask.

The fact that animal are souls does not make us equal with animals.  No, humans were created in God's image.  Animals were not.


The fact you speak of you have not proven. All I see is you adding to scripture what is clearly not there.

Well, I beleive it does.  Not in the sense that they were sinning against God, but they were a part of God's curses on His creation.....


The reason you say you "believe" it does, is because you cannot provide scripture to support that it does.

Rom 8:18  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19  For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20  For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21  that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. ESV...The KJV uses "creature"


You have not provided me with "any" verse that directly says that God breathed life into animals and they become living souls.

I hope you see that I am not just trying to win an argument here.  My only goal is to increase our knowledge of God and His Son.

View Post


With me you would have to provide exact scripture to what you want to be true before it becomes true. Let me give you a little warning from scripture itself.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Brethren = believer.
If any of you = believer.
Err from the truth = The truth of God's word.
And one convert him = How far the brethren can fall, that they need to be converted back.
Etc...
Save a soul from death? "Soul death" is also known as the "second death". The second death is eternal damnation by being cast into the lake of fire. I would say that you are on the verge of erring from truth. Not only have you implied what you cannot support through exact meaning in scripture. But are going as far as to try and teach it as fact and truth.

So to make what you want to be true you would have to:

1) Provide actual scripture wording that says God breathed life into animals and they became living souls (just like man).
2) You would have to provide more than one scripture confirming this because the Bible always reconfirms what is meant in more than one place.
3) Seek God's wisdom through prayer and if this be true, God will show you the verses and how to decipher them for truth.

If you refuse to do these things, then you refuse Godly counsel and choose the way of the wilderness. Refusing correction in this manner is the same as rejecting God because you seek counsel elsewhere. This type of rejection hardens your heart, and each one get easier as you do it. Until the point comes that you can be given up to have a reprobate mind (not knowing between truth and lies, right or wrong). The curse of the reprobate mind is given to those who know the truth, but refuse it in order to believe a lie. And this lie is usually self serving.

God is not a Genie that we would dictate unto him His truth or how He did something. A Genie always owes you, and is bound to grant you your wishes. A loving God owes us nothing, but because of His love he sent His Son to die on the cross. Because of this we should show more respect for His word and work out our truth for our salvation with fear and trembling, and not imply what cannot be clearly proven.

phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

#17 Bex

Bex

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1066 posts
  • Interests:God, creation, friends/family, animals, health topics, auto/biographies, movies (horror, comedy, drama, whatever, just as long as it's good), music, video games (mainly survival horror, or survival/adventure types), crossword puzzles, books on real life crime/serial killers/etc. Prophecy/miracles/supernatural/hauntings etc, net surfing/forums etc.<br /><br />One of my favourite forums for information on many topics:<br /><br />http://orbisvitae.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
  • Age: 38
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • New Zealand

Posted 16 January 2011 - 03:07 AM

Howdy Bex,

Personally, I wouldn't go so far out on a limb to claim that our pets will be there to meet us in Heaven.  :lol:

I do believe that all of creation, including the universe, will be released from the curse during the time of the New Heaven and the New Earth. There will be no more entropy. We, and presumably, animals, will live forever. As such, animals that are around at the end of the millennial reign of Christ could possibly go into eternity with their owners.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any scripture that addresses favorite pets dying and being transported to Heaven in advance of us. I'd be interested if someone can point some out.

Dave

View Post


Hi Dave,

No, I know of no scriptual quotes as far as I'm aware that directly addresses this or says it is so! If I come across any, you can be sure I'll post them. So, as of this time, it is mere speculation on my part. I certainly wish for it to be so and I'm sure most people do! But as Ike said, wanting it to be so, doesn't make it so. Just like wanting something to not exist, won't make it cease to exist. Absolutely!

I can only say there have been near death experiences where people have apparently seen Heaven and seen their own pets there, or at least animals. Not in every case, but certainly some. Are they all legitimate? I don't know. The word of God does come first. But I think these experiences can be worthy of consideration.

Certainly, it's a wonderful thought and I don't see it being out of the realm of possibility with an all loving and limitless God. But I think this is something that we will have to wait to find out! Evidentally, God gave us more than enough in scripture for the understanding we require for our salvation. But as we were told:

1 Corinthians 2:9

But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.



Though there are some things we have been told, we cannot imagine the glory to come or all the things God has in store for those who remain faithful to Him and love Him! Dare we hope that His wonderful creation of animals might be a part of this? Well, I hope so. And I personally believe so, as I mentioned there was an answer to my prayers regarding the loss of a beloved pet. Something that I won't readily forget. But no, I can't quote scripture in this regard, so it remains only a personal experience :lol:

#18 MamaElephant

MamaElephant

    former JW

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1564 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bible, Home-schooling, Education, Fitness, Young Earth Science, Evolution, Natural Medicine, Board Games, Video Games, Study of cult mind control and Counseling for those coming out of cult mind control.
  • Age: 35
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I am His! 1/29/12

Posted 16 January 2011 - 12:44 PM

The soul is not in the blood, life is.

Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

deut 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

Leviticus 17:14 and Deuteronomy 12:23 both use the Hebrew word ne′phesh. Nephesh is translated soul in NWT.

Some occurrences of ne'phesh and psykhe' in the scriptures: Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21 breathing: Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21] blood Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 141.8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). human life: Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37

Occurrences of soul in the KJV are different, so this probably explains the confusion. Interesting. When I have more time I will look at the KJV and see what they are translating into soul.

Edit: Oh, well, I forgot to check Genesis 2:7. In this case the KJV is indeed translating the Hebrew nephesh into the English soul. But in the other scriptures the Hebrew term nephesh is not translated into the English term soul. So yes, this is indeed a source of confusion. I will have to look some more.

#19 performedge

performedge

    Don - a Child of the King

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Carolina
  • Interests:Being a logician. Debating the origins controversy. Going to heaven. Taking others with me. Seeing the creator.
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Rock Hill, SC

Posted 16 January 2011 - 08:43 PM

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

View Post


OK Ikester,

You apparently missed the point, so let me spell it out for you more clearly.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Now please note God's exact words....All animal in the waters are "living creatures" . The Hebrew words are chay (living) and nephesh (creature).

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living (h2416)creature (nephesh h5315) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Again, the exact same words used. Now also notice that the land animals came forth from the earth (we will find out later that they were formed from the ground just like man).

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (h2416) soul (nephesh h5315).

Now in the Hebrew it is the exact same words. That's three witnesses so far. Man is a living breathing soul. So are animals. That His words. You can accept them or reject them, just like Adam did.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315), that was the name thereof.

Again, now we see that the animals and birds were formed from the ground which is amazingly similar to man. And again the exact same words are used. Living creatures or living souls.

Genesis 9:10 And with every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315) that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

Again the exact same words used for the animals on the ark.

Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315) that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315) of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living (h2416)creature (nephesh h5315) of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Now here again we have animals described with the same words that man was described. These are God's words Ikester, not mine. Accept them or reject them. Adam was a living soul. He was also a living creature. Animals are living creatures formed from the ground like Adam. They are also living souls. Souls worthy of God making a covenant with them. Not just man. God made this covenant with animals also.

The covenant made between God and every living creature was not a salvation covenant.


Hmmmm? It seems to me that these animals were just saved, and this covenant with the sign of the rainbow was to be a remembrance of this salvation and a promise to never bring this type of deadly judgement again. That sound like a salvation covenant to me!

"Never" once does God's word say that He breathed life into animals and they became living souls. So you are trying to read more into the word then what is there.


No. It doesn't once say that. But is does say multiple times that they are living souls. It says that God formed them from the ground just like Adam. And it also says that they have the breath (spirit) of life just like Adam.

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath (spirit H7307) of life,(H2416) from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (spirit h7307) of life (h2416).

Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath (spirit h7307) of life (h2416), of all that was in the dry land, died.

So we can see that these animals have the breath of life or spirit of life in them just like Adam who was given his breath of life from God. We don't have a direct verse, but we can logically deduce that God clearly formed animals from the ground and they became living and breathing souls which came from God.

Also, what is my doctrine that I would believe it over the word? I became non-denominational to get away from man made doctrines. So if you can prove what you say "with the word" and not your opinion. I would have no problem changing my view.


I have not presented one man made doctrine. Only God's word. Only the spirit can "prove" this to you. He must speak to you through His word. But just like Adam, many listen to other serpent like spirits. I too have been a non-denominationalist since I was 14. I congratulate your wisdom here. I believed like you for most of my life, till I stopped listening to my teachers and I studied God's word for what it really says.

But I have yet seen you provide one convincing word from God's word that would convince me.


Now you have. Convincing though comes from God and not me. You can listen to His words which I have clearly presented to you, or as Adam, you can twist them ever so slightly and draw your own false conclusions as Adam did.

#20 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 16 January 2011 - 09:20 PM

OK Ikester,

You apparently missed the point, so let me spell it out for you more clearly.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Now please note God's exact words....All animal in the waters are "living creatures" .  The Hebrew words are chay (living) and nephesh (creature).

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living (h2416)creature (nephesh h5315) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Again, the exact same words used.  Now also notice that the land animals came forth from the earth (we will find out later that they were formed from the ground just like man).

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (h2416) soul (nephesh h5315).

Now in the Hebrew it is the exact same words.  That's three witnesses so far.  Man is a living breathing soul.  So are animals.  That His words.  You can accept them or reject them, just like Adam did.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315), that was the name thereof.

Again, now we see that the animals and birds were formed from the ground which is amazingly similar to man.  And again the exact same words are used.  Living creatures or living souls.

Genesis 9:10 And with every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315) that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

Again the exact same words used for the animals on the ark.

Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315) that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living (h2416) creature (nephesh h5315) of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living (h2416)creature (nephesh h5315) of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Now here again we have animals described with the same words that man was described.  These are God's words Ikester, not mine.  Accept them or reject them.  Adam was a living soul.  He was also a living creature.  Animals are living creatures formed from the ground like Adam.  They are also living souls.  Souls worthy of God making a covenant with them.  Not just man.  God made this covenant with animals also.


Here's where you have a problem and your idea of animals and souls do not work. You said because animals were made from the soil like man, then they have souls like man.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Not every living creature came from the earth. So do land animals have souls while sea life does not?

Hmmmm?  It seems to me that these animals were just saved, and this covenant with the sign of the rainbow was to be a remembrance of this salvation and a promise to never bring this type of deadly judgement again.  That sound like a salvation covenant to me!


To make your point you are adding to the word what is not there, and what is not meant.

No. It doesn't once say that.  But is does say multiple times that they are living souls.  It says that God formed them from the ground just like Adam.  And it also says that they have the breath (spirit) of life just like Adam.

Gen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath (spirit H7307) of life,(H2416) from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen 7:15  And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (spirit h7307) of life (h2416).

Gen 7:22  All in whose nostrils was the breath (spirit h7307) of life (h2416), of all that was in the dry land, died.


Now you are grasping. Was there any parables of cats and dogs going to Heaven or Hell like the rich man poor man parable?

So we can see that these animals have the breath of life or spirit of life in them just like Adam who was given his breath of life from God.  We don't have a direct verse, but we can logically deduce that God clearly formed animals from the ground and they became living and breathing souls which came from God.
I have not presented one man made doctrine.  Only God's word.  Only the spirit can "prove" this to you.  He must speak to you through His word.  But just like Adam, many listen to other serpent like spirits.  I too have been a non-denominationalist since I was 14.  I congratulate your wisdom here.  I believed like you for most of my life, till I stopped listening to my teachers and I studied God's word for what it really says.
Now you have.  Convincing though comes from God and not me.  You can listen to His words which I have clearly presented to you, or as Adam, you can twist them ever so slightly and draw your own false conclusions as Adam did.

View Post


All I see is you wanting something to be true so bad, you will add to the word to make it so.

Animals going to Heaven, or having the same status as humans dates all the way back to Egyptian times. Their pagan god's were often half human half animal. And they believed that Ravens carried the souls of dead humans into heaven.

Does the Bible ever say: Animals were created a little lower than the Angels?
Why did Christ come back as a human when he could have come back as an animal for animal sacrifice? Can a human die for the salvation of an animal?

And when God allowed clean and unclean animals onto the Ark, was He kind racist to allow enough of one kind (clean animals) on in order to survive, while another would not?

And how does clean and unclean factor into animals supposed soul going to Heaven? Will there be unclean animals in Heaven?

Will land animals be the only animals with souls because they were formed from the ground (like man), while sea life came from the sea will not have souls?

Let's look at the unclean laws:

lev 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcass of an unclean beast, or a carcass of unclean cattle, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.

lev 7:20 But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
21 Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

ev 11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

So I ask again, will there be unclean animals in Heaven if animals have souls? And if not, do they go to Hell instead? And if they are damned for hell, can we save them?

Finding truth in God's word means you have to apply "everything". Not just what's here, what's there, etc... it either all meshes to make one truth, or it's not true.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users