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The Rapture Doctrine


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#1 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:55 PM

Id like to get peoples insight on the rapture doctrine. I Myself do not believe in this doctrine because I don't see it fitting in with what scriptures actually say about the second coming of Christ.

I will start off as to why I do not believe it is a sound biblical doctrine. Please do not take offense to anything I say as I am not bashing anyone, just disagreeing.

The term Rapture stands for the so-called coming of a millennial reign of Christ on earth. The word Rapture comes from the Latin, RAPARE, which means to "take away" or "snatch out." Theory that is directly associated with it is taught by many who endorse this theory that Christ at his second coming will silently remove from this world the righteous - and this just before a terrible tribulation shall take place on the earth. This alarmist doctrine portrays quite a drama. Families will be shocked by the strange disappearance of a mother, father, or child. Driverless cars will collide in streets. A man and wife are in bed; she hears a noise, turns her head, and he is gone. Planes crash with no pilots found.

The theorist continues by stating that the tribulation on earth will last for seven years during which time the Lord will pour out His wrath upon all those who have rejected Him. At the end of the tribulation, they say, the Lord will return to the earth with ten thousand of His saints and a great battle will be fought. They add that Christ and His army will be victorious and will then execute judgement upon the ungodly. Then, according to the theory, the Lord will usher in His Kingdom, an earthly reign of Christ on earth which shall last for 1,000 years. The conclusion of this suggested millennium will pose another great battle. This is supposed to involve a last-ditch effort of evil against good - to no avail, of course. Then they affirm that a second resurrection will-take place; and all who remain from the time of Adam will be raised and shall receive their just desserts. Let us see what the Bible says regarding the truth of our Lord's return.


First, the word Rapture is not even to be found in the Bible; Nor is the doctrine taught there.

Secondly, the Lord's return will not be. secretive or silent. Revelation 1:7 states that, "every eye shall see him', 1 Thessalonians 4:16, says that His coming will be heralded with, "a shout'. with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God".

Thirdly, the "tribulation" often referred to is based upon an erroneous interpretation of Matthew 24. This "tribulation' was associated with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 according to the first question the Lord answered in Matthew 24:1-3.

Matthew 24:1-3
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." 3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

That "tribulation" did in fact come before that generation passed, Matthew 24:34. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Fourthly, according to the Bible there is but one resurrection and that will include both the good and evil., John 5:28-29, states, "all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth".

Fifthly, based upon the Bible, Christ's Kingdom is not future. It has already been in existence for nearly 2000 years and it is a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. Jesus stated it in John 18:336 "My kingdom is not of this world." Christ promised Peter in Matthew 16:18-19-that he could open the doors of the kingdom, and this the apostle exercised in Acts 2:38-47. John, the apostle, stated in Revelation 1:9 that he was "in the Kingdom". Now all of these books were written in the First Century and the kingdom was spoken of as existing then.

Mark 9:1 is a passage that definitely puts the beginning of the kingdom in that generation.

1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." (Rapture & Trib, p.2)

Lastly, the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth is a gross distortion of Revelation 20:1-7. This is a highly figurative context within a very symbolic book. The reign viewed in Revelation 20 is not an "earthly" reign of the Lord at all. It is a spiritual reign with victorious saints (Revelation 20:4). In Revelation 6:9-11 these martyred souls were, "underneath the altar", crying for vindication; in Chapter 20, however, they were on, "thrones reigning with their Lord." This was a prophetic indication that Christianity would be triumphant over its enemies. The 1,000 years is likely a symbol of the completeness of that victory. The number 1,000 is used more than 20 times in the book of Revelation, but not in a literal sense. The whole concept of the so-called Rapture contradicts scores of Bible passages of the clearest import.

#2 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:44 PM

I will post more but I have been sitting for too long today, the rods and screws in My back are killing me :(

Word to the wise, dont get a spinal fusion, its no fun. :wacko:

#3 ikester7579

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 11:20 PM

I will post more but I have been sitting for too long today, the rods and screws in My back are killing me :(

Word to the wise, dont get a spinal fusion, its no fun.  :wacko:

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I can relate to your back pain. Mine gets so bad at times all I can do is lay in bed and holler as the pain shoots from one side of my back unto the other. It's so bad that I don't know whether to pass out or puke at times.

I will pm you with some info on what has worked for me for reducing the pain where it's not so bad.

#4 performedge

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 09:14 AM

Id like to get peoples insight on the rapture doctrine. I Myself do not believe in this doctrine because I don't see it fitting in with what scriptures actually say about the second coming of Christ.

I will start off as to why I do not believe it is a sound biblical doctrine. Please do not take offense to anything I say as I am not  bashing anyone, just disagreeing.

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Well Joshua, you have opened quite a "can of worms". I've never eaten any, but I have heard that worms are full of protein and quit good for you.

The term Rapture stands for the so-called coming of a millennial reign of Christ on earth. The word Rapture comes from the Latin, RAPARE, which means to "take away" or "snatch out." Theory that is directly associated with it is taught by many who endorse this theory that Christ at his second coming will silently remove from this world the righteous - and this just before a terrible tribulation shall take place on the earth. This alarmist doctrine portrays quite a drama. Families will be shocked by the strange disappearance of a mother, father, or child. Driverless cars will collide in streets. A man and wife are in bed; she hears a noise, turns her head, and he is gone. Planes crash with no pilots found.


This is known as the Futurist's view of interpreting the Revelation letter/book to John and the seven Churches in Asia.

The theorist continues by stating that the tribulation on earth will last for seven years during which time the Lord will pour out His wrath upon all those who have rejected Him. At the end of the tribulation, they say, the Lord will return to the earth with ten thousand of His saints and a great battle will be fought. They add that Christ and His army will be victorious and will then execute judgement upon the ungodly. Then, according to the theory, the Lord will usher in His Kingdom, an earthly reign of Christ on earth which shall last for 1,000 years. The conclusion of this suggested millennium will pose another great battle. This is supposed to involve a last-ditch effort of evil against good - to no avail, of course. Then they affirm that a second resurrection will-take place; and all who remain from the time of Adam will be raised and shall receive their just desserts. Let us see what the Bible says regarding the truth of our Lord's return.


But the books won't sell unless you have a good story.


First, the word Rapture is not even to be found in the Bible; Nor is the doctrine taught there.


Well I understand where you are coming from. Yes "rapture" is not in the Bible. But let's not throw it totally out, because "being caught up in the air" is.

Secondly, the Lord's return will not be. secretive or silent. Revelation 1:7 states that, "every eye shall see him', 1 Thessalonians 4:16, says that His coming will be heralded with, "a shout'. with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God".


But that's the only way the teaching becomes logical. It must be secret.


Thirdly, the "tribulation" often referred to is based upon an erroneous interpretation of Matthew 24. This "tribulation' was associated with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 according to the first question the Lord answered in Matthew 24:1-3.

Matthew 24:1-3
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." 3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

That "tribulation" did in fact come before that generation passed, Matthew 24:34. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


There are many events in history that fulfill the prophecies of scriptures beyond Matt 24. Yet churches don't teach these. But they have the books.

Fourthly, according to the Bible there is but one resurrection and that will include both the good and evil., John 5:28-29, states, "all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth".


The scripture also teaches about a "day" when all these events takes place. The problem is not the events or the sequence of events regarding the second coming. The problem is will it take place in a day, or will it take place in a period that includes a 1000 years.

Fifthly, based upon the Bible, Christ's Kingdom is not future. It has already been in existence for nearly 2000 years and it is a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. Jesus stated it in John 18:336 "My kingdom is not of this world." Christ promised Peter in Matthew 16:18-19-that he could open the doors of the kingdom, and this the apostle exercised in Acts 2:38-47. John, the apostle, stated in Revelation 1:9 that he was "in the Kingdom". Now all of these books were written in the First Century and the kingdom was spoken of as existing then.


But that's the power of the books. The kingdom you refer to can't be the millenial kingdom. That's the power of the number 1000. The books are ignorant of 2Pet 3:8.



Mark 9:1 is a passage that definitely puts the beginning of the kingdom in that generation.

1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." (Rapture & Trib, p.2)


It seems to me that that Pentecost was a pretty powerful day.

Lastly, the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth is a gross distortion of Revelation 20:1-7. This is a highly figurative context within a very symbolic book. The reign viewed in Revelation 20 is not an "earthly" reign of the Lord at all. It is a spiritual reign with victorious saints (Revelation 20:4). In Revelation 6:9-11 these martyred souls were, "underneath the altar", crying for vindication; in Chapter 20, however, they were on, "thrones reigning with their Lord." This was a prophetic indication that Christianity would be triumphant over its enemies. The 1,000 years is likely a symbol of the completeness of that victory. The number 1,000 is used more than 20 times in the book of Revelation, but not in a literal sense. The whole concept of the so-called Rapture contradicts scores of Bible passages of the clearest import.


You are not alone in your understanding. I am not ignorant that a thousand years is as a day. And it doesn't sound like you are either. That solves all the problems, but it may not sell many books.

Ihave studied all four views of the Revelation. The historical is the only one that makes any sense to me. Most people subscribe to a view first, and then they make the rest of the scripture work around that view. Hence the rapture and millenial theories. However, if you start with Matthew and go forward you will have no concept of any long period of time for the second coming. Then when you reach the 1000 years in Rev 19, you will realize that Peter already told you about this.

#5 Scanman

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 11:24 AM

The problem is will it take place in a day, or will it take place in a period that includes a 1000 years.


I am a Preterist...(a formally dominant viewpoint prior to the 1800's)

"He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended." Rev 20:3

"...They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison..." Rev 20:4-7


...the greek word χίλια (chilioi) translated here as 'thousand', actually means a 'thousand-thousand' (Strongs G5507)

...another word for a long, long time...not a literal 1000 years.

Peace

#6 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 09:24 PM

I want to point out some misconceptions about what a lot of people belive about the rapture.

Rapture Misconceptions:

Are based on misunderstanding the nature of promises made to the Jews through Abraham.

State that Jesus will return in the air secretly.

That the kingdom will be established.

That the church will be caught away secretly to meet the Lord in the air.

That the church will be in the air for seven years while there is tribulation on earth.

That Jesus and the saints will return to earth to gain victory and set up a kingdom which will last a literal thousand years.

What Do The Scriptures Say?

There will be nothing secret about the second coming of Christ. 1 Thess. 4:16-17 above is clear. There will be the shout and the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God announcing His coming. The apostle John said about His coming:

Rev. 1:7
"BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen."

When Jesus comes again the world will be destroyed. There will be no thousand years following his return, there will be no "tribulation" period. The earth will cease to exist.


2 Pet. 3:8-13
8 " But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."

When Jesus comes again judgment begins, there will be no time when the "righteous" are removed from the earth during a time when the "wicked" are punished. The Scriptures clearly teach that there will be no separation of good and evil until the end.

1 Thess. 5:1-4
1 "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness"

Acts 17:30-31
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

1 Cor. 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

When Jesus comes again, it is all over. There will be nothing secret about His coming. There will be one resurrection of the dead to appear in one final judgment. The world will end and eternity will begin.


1 Thess. 4:13-18
13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

"Always be with the Lord," where? In the air! At the second coming it is all over. The Bible never places Christ back on earth.

2 Thess. 1:5-10
5 "This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed."

At Christ's return God "deals out retribution" to those who have refused to be obedient. It will be the time of judgment. "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord," starting at that very moment.

Some Premillennialists teach that this secret "rapture" will remove the church from the earth during the "tribulation" period. This is the time at which the literal Jews will return to the "promised" land and begin the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple.

#7 performedge

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 06:26 AM

I am a Preterist...(a formally dominant viewpoint prior to the 1800's)

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I think you may want to look into this a little further. Preterism has never been a "dominant" view to my knowledge. Preterism didn't even exist until the mid 1600's when it and Futurism were birthed from Roman Catholicism to counteract the claims of the Reformers who pointed the dreaded finger of the aniti-Christ towards the papacy.

I think you may be referring to Historicism which was the dominant view prior to the 1800's. Preterism is a type of historical view, but it forces all the history in the first 100 years after after Christ whereas the historicist views the Revelation as timing from 95AD to the scond coming. Preterism also forces the dating of the Revelation leter to prior the Fall of Jerusalem. There is very little scholarly support for that.

"He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended." Rev 20:3

"...They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison..." Rev 20:4-7
...the greek word χίλια (chilioi) translated here as 'thousand', actually means a 'thousand-thousand' (Strongs G5507)

...another word for a long, long time...not a literal 1000 years.


I think you may misunderstand the "thousand-thousand" bit. The word literally translates a "thousand" in english.

The word is only in two books of the Bible. 2Peter and Revelation. In 2Pet 3:8, Peter defines it's usage. In Rev 20 it is used 6 times. If you are not "ignorant" (Peter's words) of the definition, then you will understand that the 1000 years is as a day. Peter/Holy Spirirt gives this definition in context when discussing the second coming which is clearly on a "day".

It has always amazed me how YEC's are so literal about a day in Genesis, but they aren't when it comes to the second coming.

#8 Scanman

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 06:58 AM

II think you may misunderstand the "thousand-thousand" bit.  The word literally translates a "thousand" in english.


My bad...
You are absolutely correct...my Strongs reference obscurred a colon before the dash (a thousand:-thousand) ...they were meant to be separate.

Although, I still view the usage here as a figurative long period of time and not an effort to nail down an exact number of years.

Thanks for catching that.

#9 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:05 AM

Numbers in the Jewish culture and in the Bible had meanings behind them and this is what 1000 meant in the Jewish culture

One Thousand : 1000 - Biblical Numerology Meaning: deals in reference with having or achieved some sort of divine completeness

or 10

Ten : 10 - Biblical Meaning of Number: deals with completeness that happens in a divine order or completed during a course of time. There's nothing that is left wanting within the complete cycle the number "ten" has just completed.

10x10x10 = 1000

Since Revelation is a symbolic book it can be concluded that 1000 means the complete reign of Christ and not a literal 1000 year reign.

#10 Scanman

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:10 AM

Since Revelation is a symbolic book it can be concluded that 1000 means the complete reign of Christ and not a literal 1000 year reign.


I would have to agree with that.

Thanks Joshua!

#11 performedge

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:26 AM

Numbers in the Jewish culture and in the Bible had meanings behind them and this is what 1000 meant in the Jewish culture

One Thousand : 1000 - Biblical Numerology Meaning: deals in reference with having or achieved some sort of divine completeness

or 10

Ten : 10 - Biblical Meaning of Number: deals with completeness that happens in a divine order or completed during a course of time. There's nothing that is left wanting within the complete cycle the number "ten" has just completed.

10x10x10 = 1000

Since Revelation is a symbolic book it can be concluded that 1000 means the complete reign of Christ and not a literal 1000 year reign.

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Yes, it could be, but one correction. The Revelation was not written to the Jewish culture. It was written to the 7 churches in Asia which was predominantly Greecian culture.

Why can't the 1000 years be a day? (one day)

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now notice how many times a day is mentioned. Day of Judgment, Day of the Lord, Day of God. Now wouldn't it be interesting to see a loooong day where the Lord came as a theif in the night? Is that even reasonable?

I think the entire New Testament testifies that there is "a day". Only in Rev. do we see a 1000 year period. And that period is referring to where other passages reference a day. I think that is why God gave Peter that particular revelation 2Pet 3:8 where he defined the 1000 years very clearly.

Caution: In this passage people can be willingly ingnorant of the flood. In parallel with this he says not to be ignorant that 1000 years = one day

God Bless.

#12 Scanman

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:43 AM

Yes, it could be, but one correction.  The Revelation was not written to the Jewish culture.  It was written to the 7 churches in Asia which was predominantly Greecian culture.

Why can't the 1000 years be a day?  (one day)

2Pe 3:3  Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now notice how many times a day is mentioned.  Day of Judgment, Day of the Lord, Day of God.  Now wouldn't it be interesting to see a loooong day where the Lord came as a theif in the night?  Is that even reasonable?

I think the entire New Testament testifies that there is "a day".  Only in Rev. do we see a 1000 year period.  And that period is referring to where other passages reference a day.  I think that is why God gave Peter that particular revelation 2Pet 3:8 where he defined the 1000 years very clearly.

Caution:  In this passage people can be willingly ingnorant of the flood.  In parallel with this he says not to be ignorant that 1000 years = one day

God Bless.

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Interesting point...

#13 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:31 AM

I can relate to your back pain. Mine gets so bad at times all I can do is lay in bed and holler as the pain shoots from one side of my back unto the other. It's so bad that I don't know whether to pass out or puke at times.

I will pm you with some info on what has worked for me for reducing the pain where it's not so bad.

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I would like this for my Dad. :)

#14 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:41 AM

The prophecy in Daniel: "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever."

So... when the kingdom is established, all other kingdoms are destroyed. How does this fit in?

#15 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:44 AM

Yes, it could be, but one correction.  The Revelation was not written to the Jewish culture.  It was written to the 7 churches in Asia which was predominantly Greecian culture.

Why can't the 1000 years be a day?  (one day)

2Pe 3:3  Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now notice how many times a day is mentioned.  Day of Judgment, Day of the Lord, Day of God.  Now wouldn't it be interesting to see a loooong day where the Lord came as a theif in the night?  Is that even reasonable?

I think the entire New Testament testifies that there is "a day".  Only in Rev. do we see a 1000 year period.  And that period is referring to where other passages reference a day.  I think that is why God gave Peter that particular revelation 2Pet 3:8 where he defined the 1000 years very clearly.

Caution:  In this passage people can be willingly ingnorant of the flood.  In parallel with this he says not to be ignorant that 1000 years = one day

God Bless.

View Post

Are judgment day and the thousand year reign the same thing? What about the war of Armegeddon?

Is the reminder of the thousand years being as a day not referring to the amount of time that we are waiting for this day?

#16 ikester7579

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:36 AM

Yes, it could be, but one correction.  The Revelation was not written to the Jewish culture.  It was written to the 7 churches in Asia which was predominantly Greecian culture.

Why can't the 1000 years be a day?  (one day)

2Pe 3:3  Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now notice how many times a day is mentioned.  Day of Judgment, Day of the Lord, Day of God.  Now wouldn't it be interesting to see a loooong day where the Lord came as a theif in the night?  Is that even reasonable?

I think the entire New Testament testifies that there is "a day".  Only in Rev. do we see a 1000 year period.  And that period is referring to where other passages reference a day.  I think that is why God gave Peter that particular revelation 2Pet 3:8 where he defined the 1000 years very clearly.

Caution:  In this passage people can be willingly ingnorant of the flood.  In parallel with this he says not to be ignorant that 1000 years = one day

God Bless.

View Post


The reason days and years are compared when talking about heaven and earth is because days do not exist in Heaven.

Revelation 21:3 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

The thing that determines day and night is not so much time as it is the terminator (the line between night and day as the earth rotates). Since heaven has no darkness, this determining factor does not exist. So any comparisons between us in heaven has to be done in years and not days,

The other reason there is no darkness in Heaven is because light and darkness also have spiritual meaning. Light = all the is good. Darkness = all that is evil

So when the Holy City of God comes down and the 1000 year reign starts. Christ will be the light of the world (and the Lamb is the light thereof) and there will be no darkness. Because God and His Son cannot exist where darkness is.

And to make it more clear, time does exist in Heaven:

rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

It's aging-decay that is removed.

#17 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:28 AM

Yes, it could be, but one correction.  The Revelation was not written to the Jewish culture.  It was written to the 7 churches in Asia which was predominantly Greecian culture.

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Was the author of Revelation, John, Jewish? Revelation certainly has many Old Testament themes and allusions, which might make it appear very Jewish.

#18 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:45 PM

rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

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Wow. I never noticed that!

#19 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 08:35 PM

Fifthly, based upon the Bible, Christ's Kingdom is not future. It has already been in existence for nearly 2000 years and it is a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. Jesus stated it in John 18:336 "My kingdom is not of this world." Christ promised Peter in Matthew 16:18-19-that he could open the doors of the kingdom, and this the apostle exercised in Acts 2:38-47. John, the apostle, stated in Revelation 1:9 that he was "in the Kingdom". Now all of these books were written in the First Century and the kingdom was spoken of as existing then.


http://bible.cc/2_th...lonians/2-3.htm

that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

#20 performedge

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:56 AM

The reason days and years are compared when talking about heaven and earth is because days do not exist in Heaven.

Revelation 21:3 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

The thing that determines day and night is not so much time as it is the terminator (the line between night and day as the earth rotates). Since heaven has no darkness, this determining factor does not exist. So any comparisons between us in heaven has to be done in years and not days,

The other reason there is no darkness in Heaven is because light and darkness also have spiritual meaning. Light = all the is good. Darkness = all that is evil

So when the Holy City of God comes down and the 1000 year reign starts. Christ will be the light of the world (and the Lamb is the light thereof) and there will be no darkness. Because God and His Son cannot exist where darkness is.

And to make it more clear, time does exist in Heaven:

rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

It's aging-decay that is removed.

View Post


I believe your interpretation here is logically inconsistent. Both days and years are measured by the sun. A day is measured by the rotation of the earth about it's axis and a year is measured by the rotation of the earth about the sun's axis.

We have days on earth now that have no night. It's just a matter of location and season. It 's just a matter of whether the light source is removed. If the sun is removed, and God /Jesus is our light source, then we don't have days nor years. If the sun is still present and God/Jesus's light shines in the darkness of night, then we still have days and years, just no darkness.

Now the other problem you have is the Holy city is descending to earth. The so called 1000 year reign is on earth in your interpretation. Not in heaven.




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