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#81 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:14 AM

God is commanding the earth and the waters to bring forth...sounds like he is commanding the elements to do his bidding.

IMHO, these scriptures are wide open for an interpretation that allows for God to use an evolutionary process. Where we may diffier, is the time references. (day/age)

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Your point is well taken. And the time thing is a good point also. But here is one thing you might want to consider. When God says to do something He does not expect the elements to do it based on their time table which would mean, "OK God. We will do it when we get around to it. But it may take three billion years." Remember Jesus cursed the fig tree? Why ? Because there was no fruit on it when He designed in the season he designed it to be there. Now is an accepted day of slavation to us Christians--not when we get around to it.

Jesus’ first public miracle was at a wedding where He turned water into wine. For us to bring wine into existence would require that we plant a vineyard, hope to have appropriate weather, patiently wait while the grapes matured, harvest them and then go through the rest of the process which from what I understand requires a certain amount of time for the grape juice to ferment. Jesus circumvented that process by performing a miracle. Of course what He did does not stop us from going through the regular process. It however, establishes Him as a very powerful being—who has qualities, and powers that we do not have. The reason for the miracle being written about was to teach us how powerful He is.

In the Bible God in the first chapters of Genesis essentially tells man that He has given man dominion over the environment and matter. In subsequent chapters God informs us about idolatry which is saying that we are not responsible to him but to the environment. God did not think much of the golden calf which the children of Israel constructed and worshipped claiming “it” did things for them that God actually was responsible for doing.

Evolution is not true because it is simply a restatement of biogenesis that mutations (matter changing) can cause increased complexity and life. It is never observed that way. Jesus said He was the way the truth and the life. Biology did not create life. Jesus is life and He said He created the creatures on earth and gave them life.

Logically then energy and matter are controlled by God! Jesus said all power is in heaven and earth was given to Him. Matter can not of itself organize any way it wants as God has not given it that power or ability.

I am sure you have or have probably driven an automobile created by an intelligent bunch of people. Does the auto do what it is designed to do? Of course. If it was new and under warranty and if when a key was stuck in the ignition switch and it would not take you from point a to point b, you would call the warranty department and tell them the car that you paid upwards of thirty thousand dollars for would not do what it was designed to do—now wouldn’t you? Do you have dominion over the car or does it have dominion over you? Well, according to God He has dominion over the entirety of the universe and if He says to matter it does not have self organizational abilities then it doesn’t have those abilities. The moon was designed to be the moon and I have observed it so all my life as such. It has not decided to be a star and shows no signs of evolving into one.

If God wanted to create a process called evolution He could. But, He said He created things based on the time constraints mentioned in Genesis.That apparently did not take 3.5 billion years as evos say. Now you and I have limited creative abilities as we are made in His image. Therefore, I conclude if I had the powers of God I would create things I wanted not cause them to evolve and take long periods of time as Jesus didn't do when he turned water into wine. And if you have a choice you would do the same given we are only promised three score and ten. If I designed a house that would take several hundred years to build, I would never get a chance to live in it. If I wanted to live in the house it would be stupid to do that--so I wouldn't. If Jesus would have taken conventional steps to make wine the wedding would have been long over. That proves that time is not an issue to God--he is not limited by time..

Evolution is an insult to God’s power, His intelligence and sovereignty.It is not a Good idea to limit the Hoy One of Israel. He does not need “it” (timea) to do anything for Him. It’s also an insult to my intelligence as I can’t cause anything to evolve. I can create things with the matter and energy God has given me. I observe others doing the same. As I said before creationism is more efficient than evolution any day. :)

#82 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:29 AM

If we are to take the wording of Genesis literally as six creative days, then 24 hour days do not make sense. "It came to be evening and it came to be morning". Where did the other 12 hours go?

#83 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:41 AM

If we are to take the wording of Genesis literally as six creative days, then 24 hour days do not make sense. "It came to be evening and it came to be morning". Where did the other 12 hours go?

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The days are measured out by the heavenly bodies a la Greenwhich standard time. We have a leap year every four years to compensate for the few extra minutes in excess of the 24 hour period. From an arbitrary referne point it takes 24 hours for the world to revolve to that point again(considering the extra minutes adding upto 24 hours every four years).

How much time would you like or think it to be?

Suffice it to say that we observe all the planets and animals existing right now as did Adam and Eve and Jesus when He walked earth 200o years ago. According to the Bible the plants and animals have been created--past tense. The Bible seems to say that that part of the creation is over and is not now going on which is what evo says is not true. According to them we are still possibly evolving.

#84 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:46 AM

How much time would you like  or think it to be?

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I don't. I believe that each creative day is figurative, but that we do not know how long each day was.

I do think that YEC science has some really good theories based on the 24 hour day, but that none of us has any proof for the actual time span, biblical or scientific.

#85 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:09 AM

I don't. I believe that each creative day is figurative, but that we do not know how long each day was.

I do think that YEC science has some really good theories based on the 24 hour day, but that none of us has any proof for the actual time span, biblical or scientific.

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Here’s my counterpoint. God knows how long He took. He would also know what we would assume. Time as I said means nothing to Him.. A man's days are three score and ten ( 70 years). Are “your” days a variable of time? Or, do you go with the standard twenty four hour period? Many people lived longer periods of time than we do now before the flood. There is the famous Methuselah. There would be no reference point for us if it were not a standard day. Of course when we say a day now it means two 12 hour segments of time as we measure it. Since God is not the author of confusion, it is safe to have faith that the days are measured correctly based on the heavenly bodies. No biggy to me. But according to your faith be it unto you. :)

#86 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:49 AM

MamaElephant

I would hazard a guess that you do not think it took less than 6 24 hour periods but rather “much” longer. I would even venture to imagine you have in mind an alternative amount of time. Spill the beans MamaElephant you are among friends. :) :)

#87 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:07 AM

If we are to take the wording of Genesis literally as six creative days, then 24 hour days do not make sense. "It came to be evening and it came to be morning". Where did the other 12 hours go?

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Think of it as God created between the evening and morning, kinda like a work day.

So when Gods says:

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. NOTE this should be a clear indication of it being a literal day


So after He did all of the above when He was done it was evening and then morning came, so it was the fourth day. then he started with:

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

You get the idea.

#88 thatsneakyguy

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:53 AM

An analogy:
If I design and build a factory with automated machines that build cars...who is building the cars?  I am....I built the factory, I designed the system...I get the credit for creation.

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I like this analogy. I think it is a good representation of how theistic evolutionists reconcile their faith with evolution.
Life on Earth seems to be (IMO) a self perpetual system. This does not negate the existence of a creator.

#89 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:49 PM

MamaElephant

I would hazard a guess that you do not think it took less than 6 24 hour periods but rather “much” longer. I would even venture to imagine you have in mind an alternative amount of time.  Spill the beans MamaElephant you are among friends. :)  :)

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Actually I don't. :) I was raised on books that claimed each creative day was 7,000 years long, but I don't personally believe that... and neither do JWs.

It is better not to make claims that are not substantiated than to venture a guess and then proclaim it, or to believe something without evidence.

#90 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:02 PM

I like this analogy.  I think it is a good representation of how theistic evolutionists reconcile their faith with evolution.
Life on Earth seems to be (IMO) a self perpetual system.  This does not negate the existence of a creator.

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From your point of view you can say that. The thing is there is no empirical evidence to prove one way or another. What is left are opinions of how we were created.. We create opinions when we don’t have evidence to prove differently. You may have read how one guy tried to put the “theory of evolution” on par with the theory of gravity in an effort to gain status for the hypothesis of evolution. There is plemty of evidence to prove gravity exists. That's why no one wastes their time debating it. Since we are all less than 125 years old neither you nor anyone on earth has either observed creation or evolution.

Acoording to the definition science and creationists share of empirical evidence, it requires observation, testability and repeatability. No evidence we have to prove God or Evolution meets that criteria leaving us to believe what we want (create an opinion). Tough cookies.

After having read numerous of Joshua Jaccob's posts, I doubt rather seriously he would aappreciatee the "spin" you put on his analogy.

#91 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:16 PM

Actually I don't.  :D I was raised on books that claimed each creative day was 7,000 years long, but I don't personally believe that... and neither do JWs.

It is better not to make claims that are not substantiated than to venture a guess and then proclaim it, or to believe something without evidence.

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Not the hill I would die on with you. But, I guess we have a different view of faith. I remember the Bbile making the statement, "How long halt ye between two opinions? Because you are neither hot nor cold I will spew you out of my mouth." According to my faith, and experience with God, He does not need evidence to support His point of view. Diety has its privleges. :)

#92 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:10 PM

Not the hill I would die   on with you. But, I guess we have a different view of faith. I remember the Bbile making the statement, "How long halt ye between two opinions? Because you are neither hot nor cold I will spew you out of my mouth." According to my faith, and experience with God, He does not need evidence to support His point of view. Diety has its privleges. :)

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Evidence has indeed backed up the Bible in many cases, enough for me to put my faith in whatever else the Bible has to say. It has proven true time and again.

I agree that if the Bible clearly says something, then no evidence is needed to back it up. What I was saying is that I feel that the days in Genesis are not clearly referring to 24 hours... I was referring to Biblical evidence. If the Bible is not clear on something then neither should we be. (Though that mistake has been made by nearly every denomination I know of on one teaching or another, I try to personally be sure that I am not doing this.)

:D

#93 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:45 PM

Evidence has indeed backed up the Bible in many cases, enough for me to put my faith in whatever else the Bible has to say. It has proven true time and again.

I agree that if the Bible clearly says something, then no evidence is needed to back it up. What I was saying is that I feel that the days in Genesis are not clearly referring to 24 hours... I was referring to Biblical evidence. If the Bible is not clear on something then neither should we be. (Though that mistake has been made by nearly every denomination I know of on one teaching or another, I try to personally be sure that I am not doing this.)

:D

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The scripture says to Christians whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven. That gives the church (us) the ability to make decisions (form agreements among ourselves) that can influence our behavior on the earth. If we were trying to apply the “I don’t know how long a day is” argument practically it would cause a lot of confusion. We would suffer from no consistent standard. That would be like buying a pound of baloney in New York and getting less baloney than if we purchased a pound of baloney in some other location say Chicago.

Let me see if I can give you another example. Ok, here goes;
“Let’s meet for lunch sometime next week.” Some people call this a social no because it is not specific enough and most likely won’t happen. Now, here is a specific example. “Let’s meet for lunch at 1:00 pm this Tuesday at Denny’s Restaurant on 2234 West Lake in Orion, Michigan.

Other than that you could ask God how he would ask you to look at it—that’s what works for me. I suggest you read my post on Evo’s Evidence as it points out some issues with evidence.

Other than that “I understand your view on the subject. It’s cool with me.

#94 MamaElephant

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 05:50 PM

The scripture says to Christians whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven. That gives the church (us) the ability to make decisions (form agreements among ourselves) that can influence our behavior on the earth. If we were trying to apply the  “I don’t know how long a day is” argument practically it would  cause a lot of confusion.  We would suffer from no consistent standard. That would be like buying a pound of baloney in New York  and getting less baloney than if we purchased a pound of baloney in some other location say Chicago.

Let me see if I can give you another example. Ok, here goes;
“Let’s meet for lunch sometime next week.”  Some people call this a social no because it is not specific enough and most likely won’t happen. Now, here is a specific example. “Let’s meet for lunch at 1:00 pm this Tuesday at Denny’s Restaurant on 2234 West Lake in Orion,  Michigan.

Other than that you could as God how he would ask you to look at it—that’s what works for me. I suggest you read my post on Evo’s Evidence as it points out some issues with evidence.

Other than that “I understand your view on the subject. It’s cool with  me.

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I think I am beginning to get this brother... and it is a good topic for me, so feel free to add as the inspiration comes to you.

#95 AFJ

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 06:12 PM

I believe that it is possible that he started out with a single 'super'-seed of life that he allowed to branch out...

...but in keeping more closely with Gen 1, God may have planted separate seeds of life, in the oceans and on land...

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth..." Gen 1:11
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth..." Gen 1:20
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth ..." Gen 1:24

What is bringing forth?...both the earth and the waters.

He didn't say "let there be trees", "let there be whales" God told the land and the waters to produce them.

An analogy:
If I design and build a factory with automated machines that build cars...who is building the cars?  I am....I built the factory, I designed the system...I get the credit for creation.

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Aren't you taking those phrases literally?

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth..." Gen 1:11
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth..." Gen 1:20
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth ..." Gen 1:24


How do you know that "earth" isn't symbolic? Maybe it means "mind." How do you know "bringing forth" isn't a philosophical phrase meaning "to imagine," indicating we are just holograms in someone's imagination.

#96 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 08:05 PM

I think I am beginning to get this brother... and it is a good topic for me, so feel free to add as the inspiration comes to you.

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Hi Sis. Lets say you have a very good friend that you have known all your life. You couldn’t ask for a more loyal friend. He or she is above reproach—always has your back. Suppose your friend spends the night. After he or she is gone in the morning are you really going to count the silverware? I think that’s the way God wants our faith in Him to be. We can trust Him above all. He has no hate in Him—none. He says He can’t lie.

Jesus said once sufficient (for today) is the evil there of. See that you be not troubled.
We as Christians know enough to obey and trust God. Is that not enough? Do we need more evidence? Here is something I do from time to time. Read Hebrews Eleven the faith chapter and substitute the word “choice” every time you see the word faith beginniing at verse 2. Some places it may need helping words. It was an eye opener for me. I had a lot better sense of faith after I read it that way.

Of course it’s OK to give answers by reason of the hope that is in us. Evidence is cool. But if you or I err what is God going to do destroy us? His mercy may never fail but ours often does. . His choice is to try to convince us to repent because if He does not he won’t have what He wants which us as His children.

Traditional Christianity via the organizational churches has a view of God that I no longer share after I really worked on having a personal relationship with my Creator. That is the whole “dirty rotten sinner thing” where God does everything for us and we are just low down pieces of garbage. God told me a relationship is two way. He wants my (our) love and respect and He gives me (us) His. Alls I want to do Sis, is encourage you and the other brothers to trust Him explicitly. No one loves and wants an enjoyable relationship with us more than our Dad (our Heavenly Father)..

When Jesus was on the earth His disciples called him Master ( a term of endearment). Look how John leaned on the Lord’s breast. Some Christians "fear" God so much that they don’t really like Him and could never imagine crawling up into God’s lap like a little child and being so comfortable you would fall asleep to the best and most restful sleep you ever had. They don’t imagine this only because they don’t know Him I guess. . Perfect love casts out fear.

#97 Scanman

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 08:56 PM

After having read numerous of Joshua Jaccob's posts, I doubt rather seriously he would aappreciatee the "spin" you put on his analogy.

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Actually,

It was my analogy.

#98 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 09:51 PM

My humble apologies. I tell you one thing it proves is that point of view is an important thing. I guess there is some truth to the idea that whatever we look for is usually what we find. It renforces the idea that I need to be careful what I create.

#99 Scanman

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:08 PM

My humble apologies. I tell you one thing it proves is that point of view is an important thing. I guess there is some truth to the idea that whatever we look for is usually what we find.  It renforces the idea that I need yo be careful what I create.

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No problem...my fingers have been known to be faster than my brain at times... :D

#100 Mike Summers

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:20 PM

No problem...my fingers have been known to be faster than my brain at times... :D

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That was funny! :) :D :lol:

In computers we used to call it a spooling problem say when those old printers couldn't keep up with the cpu. My brain does that too--run faster tan I can talk or type.




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