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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 09:52 PM

Lately it seems I have been bombarded with Christians e-mailing me on things not even supported in the Bible. In most cases I get the impression they want to argue and try to convert me. They claim I am wrong even though they cannot come up with any Biblical bases for what they are claiming.

1) God used evolution to create. Zero Biblical base.
2) The earth is 4.6 billion years old. A claim to actual 4.6 billion years of time passage yet no Biblical evidence.
3) No Hell. Yet Hell is mentioned more time in the Bible than Heaven.
4) No punishment for sin. A type of universalism belief that says everyone one will go to Heaven.
5) Only the really bad go to Hell. Yet the rich man went to Hell and what did he do that was really bad? It's a works for salvation belief that claims that if you are basically good (works) you go to Heaven.
6) There are other ways to heaven.
7) God won't send you to Hell because of His love for you. You would not send your children to Hell, so why would God send you?

etc...

These are all flesh wants. And I would be lying if I said that I would not want them to be true. But, what I want does not make new truths and realities. God told us the truth and to believe otherwise goes against what is told to us. These things fall under certain type spiritual control that when we choose to go our own way, it opens the door for this type of control to take over.

1) Intellectual Pharisee: Is basically a Christian who deems their own thoughts, ideas, logic, reasoning, etc... Above what is written. They are basically always right, even though they can never provide verses, in context, that supports these things. They are dogmatic not because the Bible says it, because they have reasoned it out and now accept it as truth and expect everyone else to do the same. And will refuse correction even from God's word.

2) Social Pharisee: Is basically a Christian who has their own rules and standards for faith and belief. If you do not fall into that category, they will not associate with you. They may even imply that you will go to hell because you do not meet their criteria. It can also apply to material things. if you don't drive a certain car that's worth a certain amount of money. If you don't live in a certain type house or neighborhood. If you don't make a certain amount of money, did not go to certain schools or have certain degrees, etc...

3) Gossip Pharisee: Is basically someone who cannot stand others. They will destroy anyone and everyone with their toxic tongue. They are only friends with those who are like minded and feed their desire to gossip by providing information. They will back bite members of the church, their friends, their family, their pastor, etc... Even up to the point that they will lose friends, break up families, become separated from their own family, and destroy up their own church. Their only justification: It's not gossip if it's true.

Gossip: chitchat: light informal conversation for social occasions
dish the dirt: wag one's tongue; speak about others and reveal secrets or intimacies; "She won't dish the dirt"
a report (often malicious) about the behavior of other people; "the divorce caused much gossip"
chew the fat: talk socially without exchanging too much information; "the men were sitting in the cafe and shooting the breeze"
a person given to gossiping and divulging personal information about others
Gossip is idle talk or rumor, especially about the personal or private affairs of others.

Basically gossip is talking about things to others that is none of your business or theirs. And it does not have to be a lie to be gossip. if someone tells you something in confidence, and you go tell another person in confidence, you just gossip because you broke the first person's confidence in you.

4) Flesh Pharisee: Will go with any man made belief that appeals to their flesh. And feel good idea. Anything that does not make them fell guilty, not makes them have to feel they need to do anything for the kingdom. And anyone who does are automatically deemed a fanatics. And anyone who take the word of God literally basically becomes their foe.

etc....

Where did Christians ever get the idea that they can make their own rules and God will just accept it?

#2 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 07:50 AM

Lately it seems I have been bombarded with Christians e-mailing me on things not even supported in the Bible. In most cases I get the impression they want to argue and try to convert me. They claim I am wrong even though they cannot come up with any Biblical bases for what they are claiming.

3) No Hell. Yet Hell is mentioned more time in the Bible than Heaven.

7) God won't send you to Hell because of His love for you. You would not send your children to Hell, so why would God send you?

etc...

These are all flesh wants. And I would be lying if I said that I would not want them to be true. But, what I want does not make new truths and realities. God told us the truth and to believe otherwise goes against what is told to us.

Where did Christians ever get the idea that they can make their own rules and God will just accept it?

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3)Use the words that God had the Bible written in, then see if hell is mentioned more than heaven. The Bible uses the term hades, gehenna, sheol, etc... are they all the same thing? If they are then why do Bible versions like the KJV translate hades and sheol as pit and grave part of the time and hell the other part of the time?

I do not believe that no hell is a want of the flesh... I believe that it is what someone who reads the Bible in the original language is seeing there. They are attempting to follow Gods rules.

7) It is not about God's love for individuals, but rather His perfect justice. Justice is one of His major qualities. Punishing someone with eternal torture doesn't seem like justice to me... whatever their crimes. After all, they would have performed these crimes for a much shorter time than what the punishment entails.

#3 ikester7579

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 12:00 AM

3)Use the words that God had the Bible written in, then see if hell is mentioned more than heaven. The Bible uses the term hades, gehenna, sheol, etc... are they all the same thing? If they are then why do Bible versions like the KJV translate hades and sheol as pit and grave part of the time and hell the other part of the time?

I do not believe that no hell is a want of the flesh... I believe that it is what someone who reads the Bible in the original language is seeing there. They are attempting to follow Gods rules.


Then why does hell exist, and why did the rich man go there?

7) It is not about God's love for individuals, but rather His perfect justice. Justice is one of His major qualities. Punishing someone with eternal torture doesn't seem like justice to me... whatever their crimes. After all, they would have performed these crimes for a much shorter time than what the punishment entails.

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Does not seem like justice to you? You see that a flesh want because you used your logic to go around what the word of God says. Also, crimes are not what God deems as the only thing that sends people to hell. You can be a good unsaved person and go to hell. Salvation is what gives you the chance.

Question: What do you think is the determining factor of whether someone goes to Hell or not?
1) Is it how good they lived their life?
2) Is it whether they are saved or not?
3) How well they live their Christian life?

Also, exactly what did Christ suffer and die on the cross for?
1) A salvation that allows anyone good into Heaven?
2) A salvation that only punishes for a time in hell then allows them into Heaven (need scripture for this)?
3) A salvation that is what the Bible says it is?
4) A salvation that allows the individual to make their own ways and their own rules?

#4 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 05:01 AM

Also, exactly what did Christ suffer and die on the cross for?

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that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 09:15 AM

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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Now do you see the condition in what you said?

You see salvation is conditional, in every instance there is a condition.

Example:
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Do you see the condition of the comment: They shall never perish?

heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And do you see the condition there for eternal salvation?

You see eternity is not really eternal until we are in the place where eternal laws exist. As long as we are here, where good and evil exist. There is freewill to choose either. Why? Does not Satan temp you? That means you still have a choice.

Question: Why would Satan waste his time tempting someone whom is going to Heaven and could never go to Hell? To what end does he do this if their is no goal that benefits his kingdom?

#6 Fred Williams

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 07:04 PM

It is not about God's love for individuals, but rather His perfect justice. Justice is one of His major qualities. Punishing someone with eternal torture doesn't seem like justice to me... whatever their crimes. After all, they would have performed these crimes for a much shorter time than what the punishment entails.

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This only serves Ikester's point that motive other than scripture lead people to try to explain away hell. in your case, you are using the argument that sending a person to hell for eternity contradicts God's justice, it's the "nicer than God" syndrome. God makes it perfectly clear that he created people to exist through eternity, all one needs to do a perform a search on the word eternity and see how many times it comes up in scripture. Nowhere does there exist a single verse that supports either universalism (all go to heaven), or spirit annihilation for the unsaved. Such ideas are concocted by fallible man.

Those who reject God will get their wish, God is Light, as it says many times in scripture, and when man wants no part of God, they want no part of the light, and hence will exist in eternity in total darkness. There is no contradiction, those who reject God simply want no part of Him and would rather live in total darkness than be in His light. God creates eternal creature, and creature who rejects God will spend its eternity separated from God, much to the painful disheartened suffering of the Creator (2 Peter 3:9). The punishment not only fits the crime, the criminal wants no part of the free pardon.

I think Christians should not just bring their John 3:16 sign to football games to hold up in the end zone during extra points and field goals, they should also include a John 3:18 sign:

John 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light , because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light , lest his deeds should be exposed.


#7 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 11:12 PM

You see salvation is conditional, in every instance there is a condition.

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I never said that it wasn't conditional... and furthermore, I never thought that it wasn't.

#8 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 11:16 PM

This only serves Ikester's point that motive other than scripture lead people to try to explain away hell. in your case, you are using the argument that sending a person to hell for eternity contradicts God's justice,

I can see what you are saying, and I saw it in Ikester's response as well... God's ways are not my ways. I have no business deciding what justice is. I have given this some thought ... it does not compute because my foundation in justice is based on studying God's justice. The Law of Moses illustrates to us how God does things. We are given a glimpse of what he intends for New Jerusalem.

#9 ikester7579

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 11:57 PM

This only serves Ikester's point that motive other than scripture lead people to try to explain away hell. in your case, you are using the argument that sending a person to hell for eternity contradicts God's justice, it's the "nicer than God" syndrome.  God makes it perfectly clear that he created people to exist through eternity, all one needs to do a perform a search on the word eternity and see how many times it comes up in scripture. Nowhere does there exist a single verse that supports either universalism (all go to heaven), or spirit annihilation for the unsaved. Such ideas are concocted by fallible man.

Those who reject God will get their wish, God is Light, as it says many times in scripture, and when man wants no part of God, they want no part of the light, and hence will exist in eternity in total darkness. There is no contradiction, those who reject God simply want no part of Him and would rather live in total darkness than be in His light.  God creates eternal creature, and creature who rejects God will spend its eternity separated from God, much to the painful disheartened suffering of the Creator (2 Peter 3:9). The punishment not only fits the crime, the criminal wants no part of the free pardon.

I think Christians should not just bring their John 3:16 sign to football games to hold up in the end zone during extra points and field goals, they should also include a John 3:18 sign:

John 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light , because their deeds were evil.  For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light , lest his deeds should be exposed. 

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And revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Being in the body of Christ is being saved. Being spued out is losing one's salvation. Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that Rev. 3:16 is the opposite of John 3:16.

#10 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 12:07 AM

Also, exactly what did Christ suffer and die on the cross for?

Do you have a scripture that states that Christ suffered and died on my behalf in order to save me from hell? (and furthermore, the original ancient word translated hell needs to be defined correctly)

And revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Being in the body of Christ is being saved. Being spued out is losing one's salvation. Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that Rev. 3:16 is the opposite of John 3:16.

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So... if I believed in hell I would not be lukewarm?

I am not saying that everyone gets salvation unconditionally.

If I was lukewarm wouldn't it be easier for me to agree with you and the rest of the majority of Christian religions and fit in? Or is it easier for me to disagree with you because I believe that hell is an untruth?

I am afraid that if I continue this conversation there will be repercussions... so perhaps I should not respond further.

#11 ikester7579

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:25 AM

Do you have a scripture that states that Christ suffered and died on my behalf in order to save me from hell? (and furthermore, the original ancient word translated hell needs to be defined correctly).


1cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

lk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And if you look up what perish mean spiritually:

mt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

And if ye believe ye shall not perish:

jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And God does not wish anyone to perish, but repentance (abstain from sin) is required.

2pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So... if I believed in hell I would not be lukewarm?


When what you believe mocks God then yes. Any Christian life that mocks God is lukewarm.

gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

I am not saying that everyone gets salvation unconditionally.

If I was lukewarm wouldn't it be easier for me to agree with you and the rest of the majority of Christian religions and fit in? Or is it easier for me to disagree with you because I believe that hell is an untruth?

I am afraid that if I continue this conversation there will be repercussions... so perhaps I should not respond further.

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The reason for this discussion is to find truth and correct. Believing as me does not save you. Believing what the word says does.

Question: Since you don't believe that hell exist for the purpose it was created for. Then take a black marker and black out every verse that implies hell and any sort of hell and see how much of God's word you have to get rid of and deny in order to believe what you do.

Because if what you believe is absolutely true, then blacking it out should be no problem. But if you find you do have a problem, then ask yourself why? The Holy Spirit does not bring down condemnation for wrong doing for no reason. If it burdens your heart to make the corrections in your Bible, then the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you that you are wrong. Reject it's prompting and condemnation can be removed to where this guidance will never happen again.

I'll start you off with listing verses new testament:

mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

mt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

mt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

mk 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

mk 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

mk 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

lk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

lk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

lk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

2pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Listing of verse old testament:

deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

2sam 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

ezra 10:35 Benaiah, Bedeiah, Chelluh,

job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

ps 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

ps 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

prov 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

prov 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

prov 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

prov 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

prov 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

prov 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

prov 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

is 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

is 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

is 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

is 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

is 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

is 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

ezek 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

ezek 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

ezek 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

ezek 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:


And this is just a small example of the verses you will have to black out.

If you write a book about an event you experienced and saw. And I read your book and pick out certain things and said: That did not happen even though I never saw what you did. Am I not calling you a liar? Am I not saying that I don't have enough faith in what you say in order to believe that it's true?

Here is a video on where someone went to hell and was able to record it.



#12 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:28 AM

1cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

lk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And if you look up what perish mean spiritually:

mt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

And if ye believe ye shall not perish:

jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And God does not wish anyone to perish, but repentance (abstain from sin) is required.

2pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
When what you believe mocks God then yes. Any Christian life that mocks God is lukewarm.

gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
The reason for this discussion is to find truth and correct. Believing as me does not save you. Believing what the word says does.

Question: Since you don't believe that hell exist for the purpose it was created for. Then take a black marker and black out every verse that implies hell and any sort of hell and see how much of God's word you have to get rid of and deny in order to believe what you do.

Because if what you believe is absolutely true, then blacking it out should be no problem. But if you find you do have a problem, then ask yourself why? The Holy Spirit does not bring down condemnation for wrong doing for no reason. If it burdens your heart to make the corrections in your Bible, then the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you that you are wrong. Reject it's prompting and condemnation can be removed to where this guidance will never happen again.
And this is just a small example of the verses you will have to black out.

Thanks. That post is very helpful. I do intend to go through with your suggestion. Should I report back?

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:36 AM

Here is another video on Hell.

Uku-ht-jgW0

#14 ikester7579

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:46 AM

Thanks. That post is very helpful. I do intend to go through with your suggestion. Should I report back?

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You can here or in a pm if you wish.

#15 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:28 PM

You can here or in a pm if you wish.

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Okay, I will PM you with my results. :)




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