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Predestination Question


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#1 The Ark

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 01:13 PM

If God is all knowing then obviously He knows whether I am going to Hell or Heaven and knew the answer before I was born.

The only way I could change the outcome would be if God was not all knowing. In other words it would mean He had the wrong answer.

For me, this would be my single biggest hang up or obstacle on Bible/Jesus truth.

#2 Ron

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 06:39 PM

If God is all knowing then obviously He knows whether I am going to Hell or Heaven and knew the answer before I was born.

The only way I could change the outcome would be if God was not all knowing. In other words it would mean He had the wrong answer.

For me, this would be my single biggest hang up or obstacle on Bible/Jesus truth.

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God's omniscience isn't dependent upon your decision; your decision is dependent upon you ability to accept the truth or not.

If God is who He says He is, He is Omniscient and therefore knows already what your answer is. The fact that He does know doesn't affect your decision one way or the other, because it's YOUR decision.

#3 The Ark

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:01 PM

God's omniscience isn't dependent upon your decision; your decision is dependent upon you ability to accept the truth or not.

If God is who He says He is, He is Omniscient and therefore knows already what your answer is. The fact that He does know doesn't affect your decision one way or the other, because it's YOUR decision.

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Let's say you are having a chat with God at the moment and ask whether I am going to Hell or Heaven. If He said Hell I could not change that because if I could change it then He had the wrong answer.

#4 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:16 PM

God has the ability to foreknowledge and complete knowledge. What do these scriptures indicate in that regard? Genesis 22:12 "Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son" Compare Genesis 18:20,21.

Does the Bible teach that mankind has free will? Revelation 22:17, Romans 2:4,5 Ezekiel 17:23

Can ones fate change?

To those who prove faithful Jesus promises: “I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life.” (Rev. 3:5, NW) “May they be blotted out from the book of life.” (Psalm 69:28 AT) Moses said: “But if not, pray blot me out of thy book.” God’s reply was: “Whoever sins against me, him only I blot out of my book.”—Ex. 32:32, 33, AT.

Compare Ezek. 33:12-16.

Compare John 6:44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me(A) draws him.

With 2 Peter 2:20: Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.

I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.—1 Corinthians 9:27; Acts 9:5, 6, 15.

2 Peter 3:9, is patient with you because He does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

#5 The Ark

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:43 PM

God has the ability to foreknowledge and complete knowledge. What do these scriptures indicate in that regard? Genesis 22:12 "Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son" Compare Genesis 18:20,21.

Does the Bible teach that mankind has free will? Revelation 22:17, Romans 2:4,5 Ezekiel 17:23

Can ones fate change?

To those who prove faithful Jesus promises: “I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life.” (Rev. 3:5, NW) “May they be blotted out from the book of life.” (Psalm 69:28 AT) Moses said: “But if not, pray blot me out of thy book.” God’s reply was: “Whoever sins against me, him only I blot out of my book.”—Ex. 32:32, 33, AT.

Compare Ezek. 33:12-16.

Compare John 6:44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me(A) draws him.

With 2 Peter 2:20: Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. 

I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.—1 Corinthians 9:27; Acts 9:5, 6, 15.

2 Peter 3:9, is patient with you because He does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

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Is there a straight forward answer to the question.

I know one answer is along the lines of...God knows the choice I will make......if that is the case then I can't change the choice unless of course God is not all knowing.

#6 Ron

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:54 PM

Let's say you are having a chat with God at the moment and ask whether I am going to Hell or Heaven. If He said Hell I could not change that because if I could change it then He had the wrong answer.

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The problem you’re have here, is that “any time” before you die, you can accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, and NOT go to hell. So, your conversation with God notwithstanding, the ONLY difference it’s going to make is WHEN this conversation happens. So, you’re hypothetical “conversation” is a moot point, because God (according to His Word) will tell you “The Decision Is Yours”!

God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself to hell with your decisions.

#7 Ron

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:56 PM

Is there a straight forward answer to the question.

I know one answer is along the lines of...God knows the choice I will make......if that is the case then I can't change the choice unless of course God is not all knowing.

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I already gave you a straight answer. Are you sure you were looking for an answer, or are you only attempting to disprove God's omniscience with this attempted line of questioning?

You can ALWAYS change your choices before you die.

#8 Salsa

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:01 PM

Is there a straight forward answer to the question.

I know one answer is along the lines of...God knows the choice I will make......if that is the case then I can't change the choice unless of course God is not all knowing.

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I don't get your point. You could change your choice 150 times each day for the rest of your life without affecting God's omniscience. He would know the final outcome anyway.

#9 Ron

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:10 PM

I don't get your point. You could change your choice 150 times each day for the rest of your life without affecting God's omniscience. He would know the final outcome anyway.

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I'm starting to have some concern about his motivation here as well. But, we'll see where he tried to go...

#10 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:16 PM

Is there a straight forward answer to the question.

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It is better to get your answer from the scriptures rather than people. It is pretty straightforward if you go with what they say instead of doctrines. I also think that I am not allowed to give you my answer.

#11 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:20 PM

I'm starting to have some concern about his motivation here as well. But, we'll see where he tried to go...

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Many people have sincere questions about this. It is difficult in our minds to harmonize omniscience, (which hints at) predestination and free will.

#12 Ron

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:25 PM

Many people have sincere questions about this. It is difficult in our minds to harmonize omniscience, (which hints at) predestination and free will.

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There's a difference between a question, and a "leading" question...

#13 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:31 PM

Is this a correct definition of omniscient?-- the capacity to know everything infinitely

#14 The Ark

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:47 PM

I don't get your point. You could change your choice 150 times each day for the rest of your life without affecting God's omniscience. He would know the final outcome anyway.

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That's what I mean, I can't change the outcome.

#15 Ron

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:39 AM

I don't get your point. You could change your choice 150 times each day for the rest of your life without affecting God's omniscience. He would know the final outcome anyway.

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That's what I mean, I can't change the outcome.

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No, you CAN change the outcome (i.e. by the choices you make) you just CANNOT change the fact that God knows the outcome, because He CAN see the endgame.

#16 Ron

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:44 AM

Is this a correct definition of omniscient?-- the capacity to know everything infinitely

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Yes... Definitely, within this context:

om·ni·scient (adverb)

1- having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 - possessed of universal or complete knowledge

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/omniscient

Meaning:
formal : knowing everything : having unlimited understanding or knowledge ▪ an omniscient deity ▪ The novel has an omniscient narrator. [=a narrator who knows what all the characters are doing and thinking]

http://www.learnersd...arch/omniscient


#17 Crous

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 06:44 AM

That's what I mean, I can't change the outcome.

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God did not decide you the outcome of your live. You are making those decisions. The question you should ask is what the correct t dissections are

#18 ikester7579

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 08:09 AM

If God is all knowing then obviously He knows whether I am going to Hell or Heaven and knew the answer before I was born.

The only way I could change the outcome would be if God was not all knowing. In other words it would mean He had the wrong answer.

For me, this would be my single biggest hang up or obstacle on Bible/Jesus truth.

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Because of freewill, our choices can change and God always knows our destination regardless.

Example: Look at your life like a river that flows. When you are born you jump in at one end. As time passes, you flow down this river. The past you cannot do anything about. You can see the present time and a little bit into the future as choices come your way. There are side streams that represent those choices. Some lead to good things while others can lead to bad things. But, you have the choice to make them.

Now God is not confined by present time. Which allows Him to be anywhere in time and see all. So while you are floating down your river of time, Let's say God is above you in a helicopter. He can see where you have been, where you currently are, and where you are going. So regardless of your freewill choices, God from above your river of life can see you, and your future in real time. And He also knows what will happen as you make each freewill choice.

So predestination does not always apply. Because to be born going to Hell means that salvation is not powerful enough to break that predestination to save you. And to be born predestined for Heaven puts you into a covenant of bondage. Because once you enter it and have no way out, it's bondage. Christ came to set the captives free, not to put them into a new captivity.

It's not our predestination that makes God to be able to know all and see all. It's because He is not confined by time.

Example: We have 3 parts to our time. Past-present-future. God is the Alpha-omega. There is not present time in the alpha-omega. So If God is not really present in time, then how does time apply to Him? So it's the minus of present time to confine Him that gives Him this power and knowledge. And it is how eternity works.

#19 The Ark

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 08:39 AM

Now God is not confined by present time. Which allows Him to be anywhere in time and see all. So while you are floating down your river of time, Let's say God is above you in a helicopter. He can see where you have been, where you currently are, and where you are going. So regardless of your freewill choices, God from above your river of life can see you, and your future in real time. And He also knows what will happen as you make each freewill choice.


So he is above me at the moment and can I see my choices of various forks in the river lead me to Hell. If I am able to change my ways so as to go to Heaven then that would mean His view of the future was incorrect.

If before I was born God knew all the decisions I would make then I can't change them because to do so would mean God's prior knowledge was not correct.

#20 ikester7579

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 08:43 AM

So he is above me at the moment and can I see my choices of various forks in the river lead me to Hell. If I am able to change my ways so as to go to Heaven then that would mean His view of the future was incorrect.

If before I was born God knew all the decisions I would make then I can't change them because to do so would mean God's prior knowledge was not correct.

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If you "want" to believe everyone is predestined, then no matter what I say is going to make sense. People "choose" to go to Hell. They are not predestined to go to Hell. If you cannot understand that, not much more I can say.




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