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#21 The Ark

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:06 AM

If you "want" to believe everyone is predestined, then no matter what I say is going to make sense. People "choose" to go to Hell. They are not predestined to go to Hell. If you cannot understand that, not much more I can say.

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I simply can't see how I can change anything as that automatically means God's prior knowledge was incorrect.

Has anyone considered the possibility that God has some limitations with His power and knowledge.

#22 MamaElephant

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 10:14 AM

Your question has an answer. Sticking to religious dogma, protestant doctrine, man-made beliefs... what have you, keeps people blinded from the true answer in the Bible.

Here is your straightforward answer, base on God's Word. God has the capacity to be all-knowing. He does not always use that ability. Look at those scriptures in Genesis about Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 22:12 and Genesis 18:20,21. God said that He didn't know something! If you asked God how your life would turn out... will you be saved, do you know what his answer would be? That is up to you. You have free-will.

The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd” of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number.

Compare God’s use of foreordination with the way he uses his power. As the Almighty, God has absolute power. (Psalm 91:1; Isaiah 40:26, 28) But does he use his power in an uncontrolled manner? No. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. God exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.

The Bible tells us that God created man in his 'image and likeness,' and one of the faculties God himself has is freedom of choice. (Genesis 1:26; Deuteronomy 7:6) "Where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom." (2 Corinthians 3:17) Hence, God gave us free will as part of our very makeup. Since he knew the way our minds and emotions would work, he knew that we would be happiest with free will.

To go with the gift of free will, God gave us the ability to think, weigh matters, make decisions, and know right from wrong. (Hebrews 5:14) Thus, free will was to be based on intelligent choice. We were not made like mindless robots having no will of their own. Nor were we created to act out of instinct as were the animals. Instead, our marvelous brain was designed to work in harmony with our freedom of choice.

"Behave like free men, and never use your freedom as an excuse for wickedness." (1 Peter 2:16, JB)

"It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step. Correct me, O Jehovah." (Jeremiah 10:23, 24) So in every way humans were created to live under God's rulership, not their own. Obedience to God's laws would not have been burdensome for our first parents. Instead, it would have worked for their welfare and that of the entire human family. Had the first pair stayed within the limits of God's laws, all would have been well. In fact, we would now be living in a wonderful paradise of pleasure as a loving, united human family. But God does not force anyone to do anything. We have already established that.

#23 The Ark

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 10:36 AM

Here is your straightforward answer, base on God's Word. God has the capacity to be all-knowing. He does not always use that ability. Look at those scriptures in Genesis about Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 22:12 and Genesis 18:20,21. God said that He didn't know something! If you asked God how your life would turn out... will you be saved, do you know what his answer would be? That is up to you. You have free-will.


The Bible indicates either a god of limited power and knowledge or it is a case of what you said, in the red bold.

I have about 5 positions or views on this whole religious thing and I decided this year to narrow down to one. Atheism is not on my list of "possibles"

#24 Ron

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 11:27 AM

So he is above me at the moment and can I see my choices of various forks in the river lead me to Hell. If I am able to change my ways so as to go to Heaven then that would mean His view of the future was incorrect.

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NO... you are illogically positing here that you know you are going to hell, but if you change your mind, and end up going to heaven, that God was incorrect.

If God is who He says He is, then He knows what decisions you are going to make. But, they are still your decisions. This in no way makes God incorrect, but it can, in the end, make YOU incorrect.

If before I was born God knew all the decisions I would make then I can't change them because to do so would mean God's prior knowledge was not correct.

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Once again, you are incorrect. Just because God knows what decisions you "are going" to make (i.e. future tense), this in now way affects those decisions BEFORE you make them. Nor does it alleviate YOU from YOUR "responsibilities" for said decisions, after "YOU'VE" made them. That would be the case of projecting and blame shifting on YOUR part.

#25 Ron

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 11:31 AM

I simply can't see how I can change anything as that automatically means God's prior knowledge was incorrect.

Has anyone considered the possibility that God has some limitations with His power and knowledge.

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Your decisions do not affect God's prior knowledge, they, (your decisions) ONLY affect your future (not God's). Therefore, your entire premise is a non sequitur.

#26 The Ark

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 11:42 AM

Your decisions do not affect God's prior knowledge, they, (your decisions) ONLY affect your future (not God's). Therefore, your entire premise is a non sequitur.

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God's knowledge before my birth was I am going to Hell. If can change that to I am going to Heaven then God's prior knowledge was wrong.

#27 Ron

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 11:54 AM

God's knowledge before my birth was I am going to Hell. If can change that to I am going to Heaven then God's prior knowledge was wrong.

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NO. God's knowledge of you before your birth was that you would make such-and-such decisions... The decisions are still YOUR decisions... God doesn't make your decisions for you, YOU DO!

#28 The Ark

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:12 PM

NO. God's knowledge of you before your birth was that you would make such-and-such decisions... The decisions are still YOUR decisions... God doesn't make your decisions for you, YOU DO!

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Before I was born God knew all the decisions I would make, correct?

#29 Ron

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:54 PM

Before I was born God knew all the decisions I would make, correct?

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Absolutely! And yet, those decisions are YOURS! You cannot pin the responsibility of YOUR decisions on anyone but yourself...

#30 Mike Summers

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:38 PM

If God is all knowing then obviously He knows whether I am going to Hell or Heaven and knew the answer before I was born.

The only way I could change the outcome would be if God was not all knowing. In other words it would mean He had the wrong answer.

For me, this would be my single biggest hang up or obstacle on Bible/Jesus truth.

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I agree with Ikester and Ron. They have explained free will well enough for me to understand. But, here is a slightly different perspective. Suppose God is a creative being who is in control of everything in the universe. Everything that goes down in God’s universe has to be OK’d by Him as he is omniscient.

Creativity by definition is the ability to bring something that did not exist into existence.
With that in mind God creates us in His own image. We therefore have a modicum of creative ability. Remember God is still in control. You use the creative ability He gave you to create a light bulb. Even though God didn’t create it, it had to receive his ok before He would allow it come into existence. If he didn’t want a light bulb to exist he certainly could prevent it. On the otherhand why would he create a lightbul because he has no need of one?

I can’t look at you or a similarly creative being and know what you will create? On the other hand I am not surprised that someone created the light bulb. Neither would God be because he had to OK it coming into existence. I remember the days before the PC. But, I am not surprised PC's exists (it was created). God is not surprised either even though He would have no need to create one.

I am trying to help you better understand what omniscience means. God says you have a choice. He has not limited your creativity because you have free choice. He is only saying whatever you create is what He will allow you to create. For my part I have chosen to accept God’s choice to give me a choice over life or death and I have chosen life. God respects that choice as He created the idea that I could create two choices, yes to life or no to life! You have the same choice I (we) have. He commanded me (us) to say yes to life. But, He allows it to be my (our) choice. So you see your definition of what it means to know all things is in need of modification. God does know all things and in your case that knowledge is that you have two choices yes, or no. It is not wise to limit Him by your definition of what omniscience means. He knows you will say yes or no. You have that choice. It's on you. Technically, that means you are not predestined to say one or the other. but you are predestined to say one or the other. It's your choice.

#31 MamaElephant

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 02:44 PM

I agree with Ikester and Ron. They have explained free will well enough for me to understand. But, here is a slightly different perspective. Suppose  God is a creative being who is in control of everything in the universe. Everything that goes down in God’s  universe has to be OK’d by Him as he is omniscient.

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So... from the rest of your post I am thinking you agree that God allows some things even though He is not happy with them?

#32 Mike Summers

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 03:37 PM

So... from the rest of your post I am thinking you agree that God allows some things even though He is not happy with them?

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Yes

I forgot to say I agree with you also. No slight.

If God is all knowing then obviously He knows whether I am going to Hell or Heaven and knew the answer before I was born.

The only way I could change the outcome would be if God was not all knowing. In other words it would mean He had the wrong answer.

For me, this would be my single biggest hang up or obstacle on Bible/Jesus truth.


Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

sa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
What this man has done is ignore all the scriptures in favor of his human definition of what omnicient means to him. With God all things are possible including the mans decision to convince himself that God is so cruel as to predestinate him to failing. These scriptures prove him wrong. Just like you showed in your post.

Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

The entirety of the Bible is about forgiveness of wrong choices (sin). Jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins. It is difficult to miss this point. We have a choice.

#33 ikester7579

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:38 PM

God's knowledge before my birth was I am going to Hell. If can change that to I am going to Heaven then God's prior knowledge was wrong.

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Freewill to make your own choice determines your destination. So you freewill yourself to Heaven or Hell by the choices you make.

No choice equals bondage. It also equals us being puppets, and God being the Puppet master.

Also, how can a person be rightfully judged if they had no choice over what they did in life?

Do you know what freewill is?

#34 The Ark

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:55 PM

Before I was born God knew all the decisions I would make, correct?



Absolutely! And yet, those decisions are YOURS! You cannot pin the responsibility of YOUR decisions on anyone but yourself...

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Thus my destiny is set. God knows my decisions before I am born thus they can't be changed and thus the end game is locked in.

I am sitting here typing and God knows the end game for me. Since He is all knowing there is nothing I can do to change my end game.

#35 Mike Summers

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 06:03 PM

I must confess, you don't sound real.

I am curious? What do you think God predestined you to choose--life or death?

#36 Ron

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 06:18 PM

Thus my destiny is set.

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Yes, set by YOU and the decisions you make during YOUR lifetime.


God knows my decisions before I am born thus they can't be changed and thus the end game is locked in.

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Yes, set by YOU and the decisions you make during YOUR lifetime.


I am sitting here typing and God knows the end game for me.

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Yes, the end game set by YOU and the decisions you make during YOUR lifetime.

Since He is all knowing there is nothing I can do to change my end game.

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His omniscience has absolutely nothing to do with the decisions you make during YOUR lifetime. Only you do... Therefore you cannot pass the buck, and blame your decisions on God, or anyone else.

#37 The Ark

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 06:46 PM

I must confess, you don't sound real.

I am curious? What do you think God predestined you to choose--life or death?

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The pre destination is simply a default position because of Him being all knowing.

If God has a visit with you today and you ask Him where I am going and He tells you Hell, then I can't change that because if I could then His answer to your question was incorrect.

Personally, I don't think God is limitless in power and knowledge. Or if He is limitless then He turns off some of the horsepower.

#38 Mike Summers

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:58 PM

The pre destination is simply a default position because of Him being all knowing.

If God has a visit with you today and you ask Him where I am going and He tells you Hell, then I can't change that because if I could then His answer to your question was incorrect.

Personally, I don't think God is limitless in power and knowledge. Or if He is limitless then He turns off some of the horsepower.


Ok. I will bite one more time.

As far as your "if," He could also answer me that you haven't chosen yet.

Here is why I think you might be a troll. Many of the others have offered you a different point of view from the Bible which seems to get no response from you—plausible answers that are not acknowledged in you answer posts. You simply restate a version of the same premise and “twist” the poster’s words to imply predestination.

If God created us to exist as He said and we have choices as He says, then what would be the point of creating someone to be predestined to fail and cease to exist. My mom called that cutting off my nose to spite my face.

I think one could argue that we were predestined to exist because we do in fact exist. Actually, I asked God a similar question. He said, He could not possibly have asked me if I wanted to exist before He created me. That has nothing to do with His power. He is capable of creating anything He conceives. That does not mean that He has created everything that He can create. If you want to call that turning off His powers, fine. What do you "really" believe about ptrdestination?

#39 MamaElephant

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 10:16 PM

Yes 

I forgot to say I agree with you also. No slight.

Oh no... I was clarifying a different point. :) Everything that happens is not God's will, not every detail of every matter. He allows things that He would rather not happen. I see this thought often, so wanted to add it to the discussion, that is all.

#40 MamaElephant

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 10:20 PM

Yes 

I forgot to say I agree with you also. No slight.

Oh no... I was clarifying a different point. :) Everything that happens is not God's will, not every detail of every matter. He allows things that He would rather not happen. I see this thought often, so wanted to add it to the discussion, that is all.

As to "turning off his powers", I think I posted something about God having powers that he does not always use. It could be worded that He chooses to "turn them off", I suppose. Edited to add, yeah, it was here:

Compare God’s use of foreordination with the way he uses his power. As the Almighty, God has absolute power. (Psalm 91:1; Isaiah 40:26, 28) But does he use his power in an uncontrolled manner? No. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. God exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.

The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd” of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number.

I was really wordy, so I will bold some points so that they aren't lost. I hope that helps, The Ark. Personally, I sometimes find it difficult to read really long posts.




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