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Predestination Question


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#101 The Ark

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 05:27 AM

Actaully… Yes you do… In your discourse, and subsequent misinterpretation of Genesis One, you quote “Genesis One!”


Show me where I quote verse and chapter.

Show me where I have said Geneis One.

#102 Ron

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 05:32 AM

Show me where I quote verse and chapter.

Show me where I have said Geneis One.

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I already did... Are you not reading?

Genesis Chapter One, Verse One!

#103 Ron

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 05:36 AM

Since you have determined God's limitations. Why don't you educate us on it by:

1) Making a list of what God cannot do and back it up with scripture.

So we can assume scripture is correct....Just need to make sure of what is accepted.

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You are the one making the assertion that the Bible shows God as being limited. Quit equivocating and skirting the issue, and provide the scriptures to back up your accusations.

#104 The Ark

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 05:48 AM

You have continually attempted to “grind your axe” here. And when cornered, you attempt to wriggle out by making vague references to about God, promulgating your ideas (etc…), quibbling over terms and such, and attempting to transpose your version of god over and above the scriptural God.


I hav simply put forwatd my ideas. But your reaction would indicate my ideas might be on the correct path.

But here’s the thing; if you are going to make factual statements, it is incumbent upon YOU to provide the facts for those assertions. And you have failed to do so at every turn. You have done nothing more than troll at this forum.


So unless ideas are posted in a format that you agree with and the ideas either support your views or are at the opposte end to you, that is, the atheist, then they are troll postings.

Personally, I don't think you believe in a god or God. Instead, you are caught in some sort of sales group. A person who genuinely believed in God would be open to discussion......as opposed to this topic causing them to behave like you.

I feel sorry for you that a topic like this means your answers are "he is a troll" And that is why I know you don't really believe in God.....if you did, you would respond differently.

Ron, if you become open minded and not locked into selling a product, you will experience a god that allows you to question and will encourage you to question.

I am very relaxed with my ideas on how I think of God.....after all the only opposition to my ideas are.....he is a troll....

#105 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 09:55 AM

I didn't read past these... I am limited on internet usage now that I have switched providers.

But does this mean that God does not "know" the future? No! Confused? Let me explain. God knows everything knowable, including certain aspects of the future because God says:

Isaiah 46:11 Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass

So God knows what he will carve out in history and declare it before it happens. He can declare next year's Super Bowl winner, the exact score, the exact temperature at kick off, every aspect of the game, because he can "bring it to pass". If someone made such predictions and they came true, we would say, that person knows the future! But does God know before you were conceived that you would  come to faith in Christ?

Most if not all Christians participating in this thread are already disagreeing with me. They will say I am limiting God's power and omniscience. Yet in the realm of REALITY, God retains FULL power and omniscience! I look forward to their rejection of these plain renderings of scripture. :lol: The problem is, I literally have over 100 more to throw at them. They will explain away more verses than an old earther will to support his view! Just watch and see.

Now consider the following exchange in post #9:
Basically what happened here is that Ark essentially went through the progression of what leads a Christian to become a Calvinist! Not that Ark is heading that way, for starters he's not even a Christian. He's basically agreeing with us that Calvinism is irrational! What ultimately leads a Christian into Calvinism? The assumption that the future is fixed and in the realm of reality. So while this progression is the logical result when starting with assumption #1, many well-versed Christians such as Ron will rightly reject it because when they check the Bible, such Calvinistic ideas are sharply contradicted (ie. that God ordains all things, including those who go to heaven, and those who go to hell). So, Ron answers yes to the question, then immediately qualifies it with a response to cancel out the Calvinistic aspect of his YES answer. But, IMO, sorry Ron, while I don't necessarily disagree with the later part of each of your answers (the cancelling out Calvinism answers), it will leave the Calvinist or non-believer unfulfilled. Why? For starters, answering in the affirmative to each of Ark's questions before giving the qualifying response, aside from an appearance of inconsistency, could easily give the impression, whether you intended to or not, that the future is settled, it is not changeable, which especially serves Ark's point.  It's a position that many, many Christians, including many who reject Calvinism, believe. Such a view is falsified by plenty of scripture, including the following:

Isa 38:1-6 In those days Hezekiah  was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD:'Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.'" Then Hezekiah  turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, and said,"Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what is good in Your sight." And Hezekiah  wept bitterly.  And the word of the LORD came to Isaiah, saying, "Go and tell Hezekiah , 'Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will add to your days fifteen years.

To conclude, the Open View theology I presented above satisfies Ark's objections, while also completely fitting the plain rendering of scripture where God retains omnipotence and omniscience. If we assume that reality consists of only those things in the past up to the present moment, then such questions that were raised in this thread never happen. The Ark can be certain that what he does now, or down the road, impacts his eternal destiny, and he'll never have to intertwine himself in such a self-fulfilling quandary about pre-destination and God already knowing his fate.  We as Christians can know that our prayers really can impact our future.

That's it for now... Fire away!

Fred
PS. Like many theologies, the Open View has variants, some that I do not agree with. So please do not go out on the internet and research Open View theology, then come back here and make me argue against something I disagree with (aka strawmen). Please be sure to argue against the points I presented above.

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Thank you Fred, for providing an answer based on the scriptures. I looked at your explanation of Open View theology on this site and I have to say that it presents things the way I have been taught and understood them.

You said: Most if not all Christians participating in this thread are already disagreeing with me. They will say I am limiting God's power and omniscience.
This is how I understand it: Yes, God CAN know the future, just as you described. He can know the Super Bowl winners because he can make it happen any way He chooses. We know that God chooses to leave some things in the future open because He wants us to have free will.

Explain Why.

To me, the evidence all adds up to "a god or outside force" that is limited.

But you explain Why.....Creativity, to exist, must have an infinite repertoire....

Do you 100% honestly believe the god of the Bible is the infinite power. If your answer is Yes.....then obviously lots of questions.....

Would you concede that the promise of ever lasting hapiness does not need a god of infinite power? Would you concede the Bible makes a lot more sense if God is not the infinite power.

My guess is that you (and others) are shaping their belief to match a requirement and that requirement is God is infinite power and knowledge. Do you seriously believe a god of infinite power needed to go through the whole Jesus deal etc and etc.

I suspect on this forum I am one of the few "true believers" of an outside force or a god. I think both the Christians and atheists share in common....proving a starting point....and neither believes it

If our God is limited in power then Genesis is easy. But if you are locked into our god is infinite power...then it all becomes too hard...

Lastly, is there anything you can tell me that demonstrates our god is the infinite power. I don't need evidence, you just tell me. All this stuff about providing evidence and links just wastes time and energy. It is easy to tell if someone is speaking from the heart or experience.

I can say that God is not limited. It is amazing to me that God can take care of things without doing it the way we would think. I was pregnant with my daughter, married to a man who didn't want me and was neglectful and abusive. I was cut off from all contact with my friends and I had a very hard pregnancy. After my daughter was born the isolation continued, my C-section incision was not healed and was infected after 3 months and my daughter had to go to the hospital because she couldn't keep anything down. Did this torturous time break me down? No... I became stronger. I clung to God and he carried me through. He held me in His arms with His Holy Spirit. I now know that with His help I can do anything. Now when my mental health declines the reason is always that I am pulling away from Him and letting go of His hand. He always has the Holy Spirit there for me, but I have to choose to hold on.

That bolded statement is your reason for believing in a limited God. He doesn't always use His power in the way you would use it... God is love, God uses his power with wisdom and justice and for this reason you call Him limited. We can really get to know God and His personality and His power is amazing.

#106 Ron

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 11:06 AM


You have continually attempted to “grind your axe” here. And when cornered, you attempt to wriggle out by making vague references to about God, promulgating your ideas (etc…), quibbling over terms and such, and attempting to transpose your version of god over and above the scriptural God.

I hav simply put forwatd my ideas. But your reaction would indicate my ideas might be on the correct path.

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As I have provided; you have continually attempted to claim your “ideas” as fact, and steadfastly refused to provide any substantiation for them, when called upon to do so (see posts 61, 71, 76, 79, 88, 89, 90, and 100, amongst many others). Then, as provided above, you continually attempt to shift the blame to those who call your bluff (this is called “projecting”).

Therefore, the only indications here are that; you cannot mount a logical and factual defense of your assertions, and you must resort deceitful tactics. Unfortunately for you, they are fairly transparent.


But here’s the thing; if you are going to make factual statements, it is incumbent upon YOU to provide the facts for those assertions. And you have failed to do so at every turn. You have done nothing more than troll at this forum.

Personally, I don't think you believe in a god or God. Instead, you are caught in some sort of sales group. A person who genuinely believed in God would be open to discussion......as opposed to this topic causing them to behave like you.

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So, instead of actually backing up your assertion, you once again resort to the “ad Hominem abusive” instead of trying to disprove the truth of my refutations or the soundness of my arguments.

You have totally failed to back up your claims with facts, and you have continued to equivocate, misrepresent and continued to troll the forum in general, and this thread in specific.

Personally, I would love to discuss any topic you wish, but you remain dishonest in your discourse here (in particular).


I feel sorry for you that a topic like this means your answers are "he is a troll" And that is why I know you don't really believe in God.....if you did, you would respond differently.

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Again with the ad Hominem abusive. Provide the evidence that refutes my assertions, as I have (over and over) for yours.

Ron, if you become open minded and not locked into selling a product, you will experience a god that allows you to question and will encourage you to question.

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The above is a perfect example of the false tolerance doctrine of the relativist. They thoroughly enjoy positing their opinions, but despise the facts forwarded by their opposition. Therefore, they commit their subjectivist fallacy by positing subjective experiences, as objective facts, then call their opposition “intolerant” and/or “close minded”. When in fact THEY are the ones being “close minded” to the facts!
Their entire argument is then self-stultifying, as their won argument cannot withstand the weight of its own claim. And they continue to blurt out false accusations.

Example: When did I ever claim God is beyond question? Answer; never! God continually, in His WORD, tells us to prove Him. And, He has no problem with us questioning Him; the problem is, we may not like the answers. To further expound upon this, Jesus was questioned throughout His entire ministry (by His friends and enemies alike). And He never failed to give an answer, whether the questioner liked it or not. Anyone who was truly seeking answers would know this. But those only pretending to seek answers simply continue to blurt out accusations, totally ignoring the facts.

#107 ikester7579

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 08:31 PM

Just so everyone understands. The Ark made several claims about God and said the Bible backed him up. And when pinned down to provide verses to back up his claims he could not. Which means he makes his claims using a atheist site that tells him to do what he did. Because if he really knew what he claims about the Bible, he would have been able to provide verses. His refusal to means he did not get his ideas from the Bible but a anti-Christian source such as the: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

I would suggest believers here to take a look at how they question the Bible so that you will know when someone is using such information to waste your time. Because when someone has to use such sites, they do so for entertainment, not to find any truth. Therefore waste your time along with everyone Else's.

#108 Spectre

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 10:59 AM

Let's say you are having a chat with God at the moment and ask whether I am going to Hell or Heaven. If He said Hell I could not change that because if I could change it then He had the wrong answer.

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This has to be one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen on this forum.

You can't "have a chat with God" and ask him whether or not you are going to hell when you die and have him give you and yes or no answer. That argument is moot.

God already told you whether or not you are currently on your way to heaven or hell in this book called The Bible. If you don't read it or accept it, that's your problem, not God's, he already died to give you a chance to get to Heaven. What do you want? A written invitation? Oh wait, he already gave you one, in The Bible.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

#109 Ron

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 11:49 AM

Indeed... And yet he continually attempted these lines of argumentation throughout this thread.

Therefore, this thread is an excellent example of how someone presses their own eject button from this forum. ;)




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