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Aged Earth Vs Old Earth.


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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:29 PM

This is a branch off from another thread where the subject came up.

The aged earth belief is:

That God added age to everything He created on the very day He created them.

Evidence for this:

1) Adam and Eve had to be created with age.
2) A newly created earth would have been hot and destroyed all newly created life.
3) A newly created sun would not have been stable and would have killed all life on this planet.

Why did God have to create with age:

1) Time minus sin is eternal time.
2) Sin did not happen until the end of the 6th day which means all of creation was done under eternal laws.
3) The one law that was different during creation is that even though time passed, age was a constant. So aging did not exist.
4) There is time in eternity as pointed out in this verse:
rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

So what has to make time eternal in heaven is that age is a constant and not parallel with the passing of time. It becomes parallel with time only after sin as part of the curse of sin.

God created us from dust: gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And God did not curse us until after sin to return to that dust: gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

So that proves that before sin, time passed and age was constant. And after sin age became parallel with time as the curse of death was upon us for sin.

What this answers:

1) How all matter can date differently even though it came from one source.
2) How there can be both young and old earth evidence even though "all" young earth evidence will be rejected in favor of the old earth evidence.
3) How both young and old earth can be right except the theory that supports one side only.
a) Young Earth evidence supports the Biblical time line of the actual passage of time.
b) Old Earth evidence supports how God created with age during a time before sin, so that aged creation becomes part of the equation of creation. If not, all things should date back to their source, but that is not what we observe.
4) Dual time-lines (actual time passage, and dating of aged matter) answers all questions and fits all evidence.

Verses to support aged creation:

ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation Of the earth: and the heavens are the work Of thy hands.

gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

deut 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will show thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

is 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

And if the actual time did pass to support old earth, can the people of the Bible count that high to express it:

gen 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

1,000 times 1,000,000 = 1 billion.

So if they can count that high, and did not express a number that high, it means that much actual time did not pass.

etc...

#2 MamaElephant

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:25 PM

And if the actual time did pass to support old earth, can the people of the Bible count that high to express it:

gen 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

1,000 times 1,000,000 = 1 billion.

So if they can count that high, and did not express a number that high, it means that much actual time did not pass.

Great point! I have seen that idea used... that the Bible writers and readers of the time couldn't count that high. Well... that's wrong.

This is a branch off from another thread where the subject came up.

The aged earth belief is:

That God added age to everything He created on the very day He created them.

Evidence for this:

1) Adam and Eve had to be created with age.
2) A newly created earth would have been hot and destroyed all newly created life.
3) A newly created sun would not have been stable and would have killed all life on this planet.

Why did God have to create with age:

1) Time minus sin is eternal time.
2) Sin did not happen until the end of the 6th day which means all of creation was done under eternal laws.
3) The one law that was different during creation is that even though time passed, age was a constant. So aging did not exist.
4) There is time in eternity as pointed out in this verse:
rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

So what has to make time eternal in heaven is that age is a constant and not parallel with the passing of time. It becomes parallel with time only after sin as part of the curse of sin.

God created us from dust: gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And God did not curse us until after sin to return to that dust: gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

So that proves that before sin, time passed and age was constant. And after sin age became parallel with time as the curse of death was upon us for sin.

What this answers:

1) How all matter can date differently even though it came from one source.
2) How there can be both young and old earth evidence even though "all" young earth evidence will be rejected in favor of the old earth evidence.
3) How both young and old earth can be right except the theory that supports one side only.
a) Young Earth evidence supports the Biblical time line of the actual passage of time.
B) Old Earth evidence supports how God created with age during a time before sin, so that aged creation becomes part of the equation of creation. If not, all things should date back to their source, but that is not what we observe.
4) Dual time-lines (actual time passage, and dating of aged matter) answers all questions and fits all evidence.

Verses to support aged creation:

ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation Of the earth: and the heavens are the work Of thy hands.

gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

deut 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will show thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

is 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

And if the actual time did pass to support old earth, can the people of the Bible count that high to express it:

gen 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

1,000 times 1,000,000 = 1 billion.

So if they can count that high, and did not express a number that high, it means that much actual time did not pass.

etc...

View Post

I find all of this very interesting, but their are a lot of specifics here that we didn't get into in the other thread.

Could you explain specifically what this verse is telling us on this topic in particular?
prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

#3 ikester7579

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:55 PM

Great point! I have seen that idea used... that the Bible writers and readers of the time couldn't count that high. Well... that's wrong.

I find all of this very interesting, but their are a lot of specifics here that we didn't get into in the other thread.

Could you explain specifically what this verse is telling us on this topic in particular?
prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

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Need to put it more into context:

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

1) The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way = we existed in His thoughts.
2) Before His works of old = before creation of aged matter both living and non-living.
3) I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was = we were created to live eternally.

Sin is what made us fall from all that.

#4 MamaElephant

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:53 PM

Need to put it more into context:

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

1) The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way = we existed in His thoughts.
2) Before His works of old = before creation of aged matter both living and non-living.
3) I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was = we were created to live eternally.

Sin is what made us fall from all that.

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So in this verses, you are saying that wisdom=humans?

#5 AFJ

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:25 PM

So in this verses, you are saying that wisdom=humans?

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Yeah Ike. I hadn't seen that before, but alot of it makes sense. I mean I have often thought that soil would have had to be there from the beginning, and soil is now caused by decay--something that wasn't there in the beginning. Maybe it was a different kind of soil. If God created like soil, he created something that was like what is now caused by the death of vegetation.

Maybe there was a whole different set of laws. :) I know it's speculation, but so is the contrary big bang model.


But anyway, I think that passage is talking about wisdom--I think it might symbolically be Christ--because He was pre-existant with the Father. "In the beginning was the Word [logos-grk], and the logos was with God , and the Logos was God."

John 1:1 "And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father. " John 1:14

Logos meant the expression of an idea, by the Greeks. I have heard it said it where the etymology of logic comes from--don't know how true that is.
"Christ is made unto us wisdom..." 1 Corinthians 1:30

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:31 PM

So in this verses, you are saying that wisdom=humans?

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Not sure where you got that from. But no that is not what is meant.

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:32 PM

Yeah Ike.  I hadn't seen that before, but alot of it makes sense.  I mean I have often thought that soil would have had to be there from the beginning, and soil is now caused by decay--something that wasn't there in the beginning.  Maybe it was a different kind of soil.  If God created like soil, he created something that was like what is now caused by the death of vegetation.

Maybe there was a whole different set of laws. :)  I know it's speculation, but so is the contrary big bang model.

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Can anyone prove that the laws of physics remained the same always?

#8 jason777

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 08:18 PM

Can anyone prove that the laws of physics remained the same always?

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I believe I can prove they haven't. I once started my truck up one morning with only 1/16 of a tank of gas (enough to make it across town if I was lucky). So, I stopped at a gas station near home to fill up on gas. I forgot to flip the fuel tank switch over and I drove over thirty miles before I realized the mistake.

That was surely a miracle from God.

#9 MamaElephant

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:12 PM

Need to put it more into context:

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

1) The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way = we existed in His thoughts.
2) Before His works of old = before creation of aged matter both living and non-living.
3) I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was = we were created to live eternally.

Sin is what made us fall from all that.

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Not sure where you got that from. But no that is not what is meant.

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Wow. I read it again and I still don't get it. It looks like we=humans in the thoughts on those scriptures. What does "we" mean?

But anyway, I think that passage is talking about wisdom--I think it might symbolically be Christ--because He was pre-existant with the Father.  "In the beginning was the Word  [logos-grk], and the logos was with God , and the Logos was God." 

John 1:1  "And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father. " John 1:14

Logos meant the expression of an idea, by the Greeks.  I have heard it said it where the etymology of logic comes from--don't know how true that is.
"Christ is made unto us wisdom..." 1 Corinthians 1:30

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That was my understanding. John 1:1, along with Colossians 1:15 seems to line up with Proverbs.

#10 MamaElephant

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:17 PM

So the question here is: Was God deceptive if he created a young earth with the appearance of age?

Well, let's see. Adam was created as an adult. Plants and animals were created as adults, and who knows how many... so when old earthers claim that covering the earth with plants would have taken long stretches of time, we have that covered.

Let's look at the earth itself.

We have a current thread showing how floods can cause layers of sediment and massive erosion, both of which are considered signs of age.

We have a thread on radiometric dating which presents accurate alternative dating methods that give different dates, and a hypothesis as to why the radioactive decay would be altered as a result of the flood. See also this link: http://www.angelfire...rbondating.html

So I don't believe that God created the earth with the appearance of age (deceptively)... I believe that things have happened that make people assume age... and a lack of understanding (like in quantum physics and the so-called starlight problem) makes people assume age.

But I also think that the stars (and some of the rocks) could be older than 6-10 thousand years... In those cases both theories are just as plausible and biblical.

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Way to fo MamaElephant!

Job 38:4  Were you there when I made the world? If you know so much, tell me about it. --GNB Translation

It is so grandiose to make the the statement that the earth looks old. It looks the way it does! The "old"  comes from us deciding for ourselves what constitites age. Without being God we do not have a reference point for age. I liked it when God asked Job where he (Job)was when He (God) laid the foundation of the world, Our SR has no end.  :)

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So do geologists, and they believe that fossils are millions of years old.  Do you believe that?  If so, then you believe death occurred before Adam.

But on an creation of an "aged" earth, God created soil which now is formed from decaying vegetation.  So does that make the first soil have an "aged" appearance?  The idea of "aged" comes from the evolution camp.

If we look at the expanding universe and see things happening, like nebulas, which are supposed to be star nurseries, what causes us to see that as "aged?"  Isn't it the teaching that stars form from that?  Yet that's only an hypothesis, no one has seen that, nor ever will.  So the idea of "aged" there is based on a belief.

Nuclear decay--does that give an appearance of age?   Do we know what forces happened at creation and during the flood?  Do we know if all the daughter product in a rock is actually daughter product, or was it there at the beginning.  How do you distinguish lead that was in the rock at the beginning from lead that used to be thorium.  You can't--lead is lead. 

Do we understand everything about the nature of nuclear decay? Radio halos show a radiation of what?  Yes there are particles which leave the nucleus, but what else is going on?  Do we understand everthing about photons or particles?  We've built huge appurati trying to find the hypothetical higgs boson. 

My point is we are trying to understand things that we can't see, and of which we probably have no idea of the true nature.   We only see the effects.

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#11 ikester7579

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:42 PM

Wow. I read it again and I still don't get it. It looks like we=humans in the thoughts on those scriptures. What does "we" mean?

That was my understanding. John 1:1, along with Colossians 1:15 seems to line up with Proverbs.

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You said:

So in this verses, you are saying that wisdom=humans?


I don't know where you got wisdom from.

As far as we is concerned, it applies to us. We are everlasting whether we go to Heaven or Hell.

#12 MamaElephant

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:08 PM

I don't know where you got wisdom from.

Proverbs 8 Young's Literal Translation (1862)

12 I, wisdom, have dwelt with prudence, And a knowledge of devices I find out.

13 The fear of Jehovah is to hate evil; Pride, and arrogance, and an evil way, And a froward mouth, I have hated.

14 Mine is counsel and substance, I am understanding, I have might.

15 By me kings reign, and princes decree righteousness,

16 By me do chiefs rule, and nobles, All judges of the earth.

17 I love those loving me, And those seeking me earnestly do find me.

18 Wealth and honour are with me, Lasting substance and righteousness.

19 Better is my fruit than gold, even fine gold, And mine increase than choice silver.

20 In a path of righteousness I cause to walk, In midst of paths of judgment,

21 To cause my lovers to inherit substance, Yea, their treasures I fill.

22 Jehovah possessed me -- the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.

23 From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.

24 In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy with waters,

25 Before mountains were sunk, Before heights, I was brought forth.

26 While He had not made the earth, and out-places, And the top of the dusts of the world.

27 In His preparing the heavens I am there, In His decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,


28 In His strengthening clouds above, In His making strong fountains of the deep,

29 In His setting for the sea its limit, And the waters transgress not His command, In His decreeing the foundations of earth,

30 Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight -- day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times,

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth, And my delights are with the sons of men.

this whole section is someone called wisdom talking.

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:43 PM

Proverbs 8 Young's Literal Translation (1862)
this whole section is someone called wisdom talking.

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Guess I did not read the whole chapter. So it's out of context. Not going to argue when I'm the one who made the mistake.

#14 MamaElephant

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 11:22 PM

Guess I did not read the whole chapter. So it's out of context. Not going to argue when I'm the one who made the mistake.

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I honestly didn't know that it was a mistake when I asked the question. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

#15 MamaElephant

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 11:23 PM

Can anyone prove that the laws of physics remained the same always?

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I would think that any origins theory depends on those laws being different at some point?

#16 AFJ

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:11 AM

I would think that any origins theory depends on those laws being different at some point?

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Think about the creation of light. God created it without a star or sun. When I was studying chemistry, it said light (the light spectrum visible and invisible) had the properties of both energy and particles (photons). We can only see it's behavior, but seeing it's behavior doesn't capture it's origin. If there are things about light we can't measure, then perhaps we can never know about it fully in this life!!

Back to your laws comment, if we don't know it fully now, we have no assurance that current cosmology understands the reasons for light and particles, like the hypotetical boson. We have math way above my head for the theory of relativity that explains gravity--but that doesn't explain it's creation. And as such, it is unjustified to think that current laws and rates have been eternally constant.

I still remember when the Hubble telescope was launched in the late 80's. I read an AP article on the front page--It used the term "creation theory" for the "big bang theory" in the title ( I called the paper on it--lol). At any rate, the scientists were suprised to find the galaxies on curved planes, like soap bubbles. THey expected to see a homogenous spacing because of the bang. Point being, even though the universe looks like it's expanding, it is expanding in an organized fashion, or it may be something about the laws of light we can't know, or don't know now.

All that said, I would think even if you don't believe in God, you have a sense of infinity in your heart and mind, so the universe now has a beginning and end as we know it. There was a point in the beginning, and at the end that the laws change into something different--because perhaps the laws now did not and will not exist , or function the same way.

#17 Ron

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 04:12 AM

Can anyone prove that the laws of physics remained the same always?

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I would think that any origins theory depends on those laws being different at some point?

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Hmmmm... I probably should have posted this thought earlier, as I was reading and thinking about the possible line of logic and reasoning being developed in it. Anyway....

We know all life on Earth changed at the fall of Man (Genesis 3), so most likely this ultimately affected ALL life (plant life etc...); keeping in mind, the latter part is just my opinion, but I can probably somewhat support it with scripture if I really had the time, and put the effort into it. But, right now, it's just thoughts coalescing.

Further, like domino's falling one after another due to the law of causality, Genesis Three affected most everything. Therefore we really don't know what life was like prior to the fall, but can this affect the very laws God wrote into the fabric of life?

My thought would be no. But again, that is just my opinion based upon deductive reasoning. And, I think I can reasonably deduce that ALL the laws came into effect "after" God spoke those words "in the beginning". Why? Because I cannot imagine God needing these laws for His existence.

#18 Mike Summers

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 12:10 PM

Hello Everyone

Based on the idea of an anomaly or miracles as mentioned in the Bible, the laws of the universe would not of necessity apply at all times and especially to its Creator. Miracles are frequently mentioned in the Bible. And then we have often referred to the miracle of flight etc. Of course flight in heavier than air vehicles is explained by the interaction of other laws of the universe and is explained by the cliché, “Where there is a will there is a way.”

#19 ikester7579

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:36 PM

Hello Everyone

Based on the idea of an anomaly or miracles as mentioned in the Bible, the laws of the universe would not of necessity apply at all times and especially to its Creator. Miracles are frequently mentioned in the Bible. And then we have often referred to the miracle of flight etc. Of course flight in heavier than air vehicles is explained by the interaction of other laws of the universe and is explained by the cliché, “Where there is a will there is a way.”

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In order for a universe to work in order instead of chaos, a Creator would create the laws then have to abide by them during the creation so that the creation would have order.

That is why the laws for the 6 days before sin were different. This was in order to make a creation that would work under two sets of laws.

Example: Before sin the creation was not depended upon aging and decay. Everything created stayed at a constant being perfect upon creation. After sin the constant that existed was no more. Aging and decay were now part of the laws that made everything work.

For God to create man with the freewill to choose, and that freewill to destroy the creation would have been an imperfect creation. To make a creation that works before and after sin shows freewill and a creation that will work under both set of laws.

So God does work under the laws He creates. For Him to be a law breaker would not be a good example for us. The creation works because the laws were not always the same. And is the very reason the creation cannot be explained using current laws.

#20 ikester7579

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 09:33 AM

To continue from the post above....

Eternity requires creation to happen. How? If what exists does not ever age (age being constant), then what exists cannot be born or birthed (made new). New dead matter would be to hot to sustain life, new living matter (life would not be mature enough to take care of itself. So creation with age is required.

After sin creation with age was no longer required because everything living was birthed, aged, and died.

Two examples of God following His on laws are:

1) When Jesus made the wine. He did not create it, He had the servants fill the containers with water, then He altered the water which made the wine.
2) When a whale swallowed Jonah, God did not create a whale to do this. if you read scripture you will find that God "prepared" a whale for this. Which means he altered what was already created.

So basically:

1) Eternity needs creation because nothing can be birthed into it.
2) Non- eternity cannot have things created into it because things are birthed into it.

To make more understandable: Where creation exists, birthing cannot. Where birthing exists, creation cannot. And that is why the laws for creation where different and why everything was created with age.




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