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Once Saved Always Saved, Is It Biblical?


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#21 chipwag64

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 04:37 PM

Ikester,

No cop out whatsoever, I don't have time to waste going over "basic" Christian doctrines and principles. There is way too much garbage that people come up with, to the point that almost EVERY word that you or I would use would have to be defined, such as "eternal" or "everlasting".
In your goats passage of Matthew 25, you say that the goats end up in Heaven, yet verse 46 says that they are going into "everlasting" punishment. Is there "everlasting punishment" in Heaven? does "everlasting" really mean temporary?
In Galatians 5:4, you are reading the text as if Paul says "you have fallen from salvation"...no!!!..he says "GRACE".
Grace is the MEANS, salvation is the end result!!
You say that John 10:27 is a condition, NO!! it's not written with an "if"..it's a FACT, same thing with Romans 8:1, again there is no "if", it's written as a fact!! Those who are in Christ don't walk in the flesh!!!
If someone is said to be "saved", what does that mean?
Your talking as if someone has every single sin,past,present and future forgiven, and then the unforgivable sin pops up and they are now lost?
My point is this, listen carefully!!! To be "saved" in a real, true condition, not theoretical, a person MUST have EVERY sin forgiven..even FUTURE sins. If there is ONE sin that is yet future, and not forgiven then that person is not "saved". At best, they can be considered "safe..for now".
So,..it's a contradiction to call someone "saved" and also able to commit an unforgivable sin. Do you see this? do you understand? I don't know how else to say this??? If Jesus says that He gives "eternal" or "everlasting" life, that means it does not end...EVER!!!
So, according to your theory, there will be people in Hell with "eternal" or "everlasting" life at the same time as there will be goats in Heaven with "eternal" or "everlasting" punishment?????

#22 chipwag64

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 06:37 PM

Ikester,

In your post # 2, video #1, concerning Hebrews 6:1-6, you said that the unforgivable sin was to fall away and lose your salvation. In video #3, concerning the James 5 passage, you said that a "saved" person can err from the truth, lose his salvation, be converted and get it back again??
You said that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are two different manifestations...no..it's just the same Greek word (pneuma) translated differently in two different translations.
And here's the kicker!! In video #2 at the 1:33 mark, you said that Jesus words of John 10:27 "I know them" means they have salvation, yet in your post # 17, you say that Jesus words "I NEVER knew you" also means they had salvation.
I guess we don't have to worry much about losing salvation, after all, we might just end up a flaming goat suffering "everlasting punishment" in Heaven!!

#23 ikester7579

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 10:37 PM

Thought you did not have the time?

And I see you still skip what you don;t want to address. The verse says: DEPART from me I never knew you. As I said before, you cannot depart from what you were never a "PART" of. But you skip that purposely to make your point for you denominational belief. But then again taking things out of context is the only way osas can work, or you would have addressed it instead of dodge it.

Example: You depart from me while I catch a plane. Can you depart from me if you were "NEVER" with me?

"Never knew you" is an expression that means they never allowed Christ to be an effect in their lives.

And your comments about Hell. Hell is not eternal or it would not have been cast into the Lake of fire.

rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And if everlasting punishment were another term for eternal punishment, then no one in Hell could be pulled out for judgment, but they are.

rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Osas is bondage because choice and freewill are removed.

Example: If you are made to do work for one person for the rest of your life with no say so, no choice. Are you not a slave to the person? Christ came to set the captives free, not put them into another bondage.

I know the real reason you like the osas belief. Like every other osas I meet, it's in every post that you use to defend it. It allows you to exalt yourself above others by treating them as not being as smart as you because they don't believe as you do. Don't believe me? Go look at your posts and your responses to me. Not even one gives the consideration that I might know anything about God's word. What is implied with every post is that I am stupid for not agreeing with you.

The thing that sums it up is your excuse to give up because you don't have the time (copping out because you can no longer defend what you believe). In other words you entered this debate and you cannot finish what you start. What this tells me is that you are not interested in testing your doctrine for flaws even though God's word says we are supposed to. You have already made up your mind that what you believe is absolutely perfect as if God told you Himself personally.

You see I tested osas with the word and it did not hold up. I found that in order to make it work you have to:
1) Take verses out of context. Read only the good that applies and ignore the conditions that allow it.
2) Imply meanings to words that are not there and cannot be proven in other parts of the Bible. What is true is "always" backed up in other parts of the Bible. Being in the hands of Christ do not = salvation. Hands = judgment, so not being plucked out = no one will escape judgment.
3) And when all else fails, mock your debate opponent to make them look stupid to justify the osas inability to prove their doctrine to the point that would make it true. Which means it has to mesh, not contradict, with other parts of the Bible.
4) And when you find yourself not being able to continue because your debate opponent is more knowledgeable on the subject of both sides than you are. Throw the towel in but make it look like: You don't have the time, your debate opponent is not smart enough to understand even when explained to them. Basically just stupid all around because he dared to question what you believe.

Now if you don't believe that you did all these things in this thread, I can re-post what you said and break it down for meaning.

In fact I'm going to post every instance you implied that I was to stupid to even debate this among other comments.

1) Even after I made it clear I did the videos by saying: Here are some videos I did on the subject that may add to what the guy above said. You said:

I couldn't listen to much of that second guy, he was WAY off base!!!, I sure hope he's not a pastor or teacher !!!

Your half hearted apology told me that you knew who it was and you still stood by what you said:

Sorry Ikester, didn't mean to put you down, didn't realize that you were doing the video!! I just get a little nervous when people put up personal public teachings.

2) You tried to sound neutral and fair on the subject by saying:

I hope you will continue to search these verses and others you may have to see if they really teach the loss of salvation.

In which I thought this would be an interesting debate "if" you could keep that neutral attitude. But soon we find that this attitude changes once real challenges are presented against what you believe.

3) You add to the word what is not there, and cannot be backed up in any other part.

Matthew 12:34-35, see also the parable of the sower, there ARE people who believe for a little while, but when it gets hard and costly they wither away...NEVER truly saved!!

The Bible never says that everyone who cannot hold on to their faith and fall away were never truly saved. Also this is a type of judgment for salvation claiming that how someone may stumble and fall determines whether they are saved. Which makes the next comment hypocritical.

I can't speak for anyone else, but [B]I do NOT take the liberty of judging who is saved and who isn't. [/B]If someone shows all the signs of faith I can only hope and assume that they are BEING saved.

Every time you set a standard for the saved to meet, and then say if they don;t they are not saved, or truly do not have salvation. You are taking the liberty of judging and are basically claiming to have a knowledge that only God possesses. And that is how to tell if someone has salvation. Only God can see into the heart, can you? Can you tell if I am saved? Would you say that because I disagree with you that I am headed for eternal damnation? The reason I ask, I have been told by several osas believers that if I don't believe as they do, I go to Hell. Even though not one could provide a verse for this.

4) And your comment that makes your belief work:

If someone who for a long time, or even a short time exhibited a period of faith through good doctrine, godly living etc. and then they start to show serious error, they need to be turned back because they may not have ever been saved, it's that simple.

Cannot even be found in the Bible.

5) So when you get pinned down this is your response:

had a good chuckle!!!, you argue just like someone else on this forum!!
by trying to defend your position, you are actually making my points for me and you don't even see it. I'm wondering if you are not related to that other person...LOL. That's too funny!

I'm just to stupid to see it, right?

I'm sorry but I really don't think you will understand things unless I spend countless hours defining words and bringing up Scriptures where you may not be focused on the context, I just don't have that kind of time.

Now I'm to stupid to understand. And you don't have the time to debate stupid people, right?

All I can do is ask you to consider what the Bible teaches about what salvation is, why it is necessary, what is necessary for a person to be considered "saved" etc.
You need to keep these things in mind when you read Scripture.

And now I'm so stupid I don't even understand or know what salvation is.

6) And when pointed out that you bowing out is a cop out, you again imply that the reason you quit is because I'm to stupid to understand "basic" Christian doctrine and principles.

No cop out whatsoever, I don't have time to waste going over "basic" Christian doctrines and principles.

7) And not only here do you make a comment you cannot back up, you again imply I am to stupid because I have to listen carefully.

My point is this, listen carefully!!! To be "saved" in a real, true condition, not theoretical, a person MUST have EVERY sin forgiven..even FUTURE sins. If there is ONE sin that is yet future, and not forgiven then that person is not "saved". At best, they can be considered "safe..for now".

Exalting yourself above your debate opponent in almost every post by belittling them only shows me that you know that your belief is weak. Because if you had all the scripture you claim to, and could blow losing salvation out of the water as you imply with every post. The other tactics would not be needed because God's word would speak for you. But that's not what we see here is it?

I also notice that you inflated your argument by claiming so much biblical backing, and when called out on it dodged it by ignoring the challenge I made to you. What I say at this point is put up or shut up. And like you say, it's just that simple.

You claimed it, now show it. I want to see this many hours of Biblical backing that you claim. And no copy and paste stuff either. I did all of my archived evidence through Biblical research because I took the time to find the truth. I expect you to do the same. That is if you can meet the challenge, or will you use another: I'm to stupid to understand comment, or I'm not wasting my time? Which means you really have nothing to show.

And no I'm not mad, I'm just calling you out.

#24 chipwag64

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:14 AM

Ikester:

Congratulations!!! YOU WON!!!...I was too stupid to see all my errors, thank you for showing me how stupid I was for using all those stupid comments and stupid implications. Thank you for including me in a challenge...I was too stupid to even see that I was in a challenge!!
And how contradictory it was of me to say that I had no time and then to repost again...how stupid!!! Arrgghh...now I have to leave not only my church, but my denomination that I hold so dear to my heart. Thank you for showing me that my arguments were based on my denomination handbook..I never saw it!!
I would appreciate it if you could lead me to a non-denominational church that upholds to non-OSAS and convert me from the error of my ways.
Thank you Ikester, you have re-saved a once saved sinner from death.
Thank you for the ability to read my heart and to show me how proud I was and exalting myself...I'm sure you know what my handbook says about humility!!!
Just so theres no misunderstandings here...the first time I said I have no time to dialogue with you meant that I have no support for my beliefs and I want to cop out. So now I'm going to say that I want to hang around here and continue debating (which really means that I gotta get busy finding a church that conforms to my new beliefs).
Chip

#25 ikester7579

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:37 AM

Ikester:

Congratulations!!! YOU WON!!!...I was too stupid to see all my errors, thank you for showing me how stupid I was for using all those stupid comments and stupid implications. Thank you for including me in a challenge...I was too stupid to even see that I was in a challenge!!
And how contradictory it was of me to say that I had no time and then to repost again...how stupid!!! Arrgghh...now I have to leave not only my church, but my denomination that I hold so dear to my heart. Thank you for showing me that my arguments were based on my denomination handbook..I never saw it!!
I would appreciate it if you could lead me to a non-denominational church that upholds to non-OSAS and convert me from the error of my ways.
Thank you Ikester, you have re-saved a once saved sinner from death.
Thank you for the ability to read my heart and to show me how proud I was and exalting myself...I'm sure you know what my handbook says about humility!!!
Just so theres no misunderstandings here...the first time I said I have no time to dialogue with you meant that I have no support for my beliefs and I want to cop out. So now I'm going to say that I want to hang around here and continue debating (which really means that I gotta get busy finding a church that conforms to my new beliefs).
Chip

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Reverse of guilt does not help you or your belief. Blame your problems on everyone else as to why you copped out is also a cop out. No list of the hours of Biblical evidence yet? Thought so. Nice try.

All you have to do is list the hours of biblical evidence you claim to have, it's just that simple unless you don't have what you claim? Well?

#26 ikester7579

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:56 PM

I have spoken to others at this forum about this thread. And they agree that you were using un-biblical tactics to prove your doctrine. I just thought you should know that I was not the lone ranger in seeing this.

Being that I am an admin, and there are other admins and mods here who help run this ministry. What we allow to be posted and stand in this ministry is a reflection upon us. So when you did what you did in this thread to try and prove what you believe, I could not just let it hang there as an example of how we should prove doctrine.

With due respect, you set a bad example here. One I could not let stand. If you had stuck to using the Bible, and your personal opinions that were not along the lines that you did. I would not have cared. But the new in Christ that come here to learn not only creation, but how to decipher God's word. Are not going to use the same tactics you did to do this. To be fair, I leave you with the last word then I'm closing the thread. If you are going to say something make sure you think about it before you do. Because to continue in the same form and fashion will only prove things more.

I can only hope you learned something from all this, and that it will help you. If not, not much more to say.

#27 ikester7579

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:37 PM

Well since you did not respond with the last word like I suggested, I will continue. In the video I am going to post, the woman in the picture uses the same type of logic you do. It's an anything goes and you still end up in heaven. As the man put it, it's just new age ****. This video, through example, gets across what I have been trying to say about anyone whom is a Christian and thinks they can compromise the word of God just because they believe they can never lose salvation. The woman's reasoning in the video is based on that.

06HGc_jb6tk

What you or I believe does not make a new reality as far as God is concerned. It's what is written in the word of God that determines this.

#28 chipwag64

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 03:24 PM

Implication #1: I believe that OSAS is a ticket to sin, I didn't say that, neither does Paul, that is your words.
Implication #2: The Bible is wrong about unforgiven sins, I never said that, you said that.
Implication #3: Grace is not needed for salvation, I don't believe that in anyway, that would be unbiblical. My point was to show you that you were substituting the word "salvation" for the word "grace" in Galatians 5:4.
Implication #4: I don't believe in Hell, wrong, thats unbiblical
Implication #5: Godly living=salvation, I never said that, you did
Implication #6: I live by denominational beliefs, I never said that, you did.
Implication #7: I exalted myself above you and implied that you were stupid, I never said that, you did
Implication #8: My apology for not reading that YOU made those videos was half hearted.
Implication #9: That I don't think that you understand basic Christian doctrines and principles;I never said that, I was trying to explain that we both seem to understand many Biblical terms much differently and to continue dialoging, we would have to define almost every word and come to an agreement as to what they mean.Of which I don't have time.
Implication # 10: I used "tactics" to support my beliefs.Just the Bible
I truly believe that you and I have VERY different understandings of Biblical terms such as "salvation" and "everlasting", so it's no wonder we don't agree. If you would care to define in great detail what Biblical "salvation" means to you,I would be eager to hear it.
Chip

#29 ikester7579

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 11:03 PM

Implication #1: I believe that OSAS is a ticket to sin, I didn't say that, neither does Paul, that is your words.


But you did:
How does it make you feel to know that you can commit any sin after being saved, and still end up in Heaven?
GREAT!!!

Question: Is there a sin you can commit that would make you lose salvation according to the osas doctrine? Is there anything you can do to lose salvation? So you see, the doctrine gives a person the freewill to do "anything", if they want, and get off with a free ticket to Heaven.

Implication #2: The Bible is wrong about unforgiven sins, I never said that, you said that.


You did not have to directly say it. What you believe does. Question: What happens to a saved person of they happen to commit one of the unforgivable sins? Nothing right? OSAS just makes you feel GREAT about it as you say. Then the Bible is wrong. Because if the unsaved are the only ones who can commit this sin, which "will" deny them of salvation. Then sin becomes more powerful then the shed blood of Christ. In fact to make the point more clear. Provide a verse that says: There are sins that:

1) Can deny salvation before it is given?
2) That the shed blood cannot forgive so the unsaved cannot obtain salvation?
3) That there is any sin that can deny salvation before it is given?

So the simple question is: Is there sins more powerful than the shed blood of Christ to deny salvation to the unsaved? And if not, then who does the unforgivable sins really apply to?

Implication #3: Grace is not needed for salvation, I don't believe that in anyway, that would be unbiblical. My point was to show you that you were substituting the word "salvation" for the word "grace" in Galatians 5:4.


Easy to prove:
Fallen from GRACE (not salvation). Grace and salvation are two seperate things.

You denied that the meaning of a verse that made it very clear that a saved person can fall from grace (unsaved don't have grace). Then you made grace separate when the Bible makes it very clear that through "grace" we are saved. Separation means no grace required. So you twisted God's word to make your point. To make your comment work about separation of grace and salvation, you have to omit the three verses below from your Bible.

acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Implication #4:  I don't believe in Hell, wrong, thats unbiblical


Good to know.

Implication #5:  Godly living=salvation, I never said that, you did


I have no problem saying I believe in conditional salvation. I'd like you to prove there are "zero conditions" to salvation once saved. You cannot because conditions are written all through the Bible. You will just ignore them and say: You misunderstand and take things out of context. And I don't have the countless hours to teach someone like yourself what it would take, right? This implies an IQ to low to understand what you do. Or that I am to low life to waste your time on.

Example: You ask me to explain what I believe. I say: It would take countless hours for which I don't have the time for. So regardless if you want to know, you are not worth my time. This is because you are so stupid, it would take countless hours to educate.

Implication #6:  I live by denominational beliefs, I never said that, you did.


Don't have to, it's in every post. All theological things most conform to OSAS, or it's being misunderstood, or taken out of context.
I, myself, do not see any references to losing salvation anywhere in the New Testament, but on the contrary, many that teach this:
If you truly have it, you can't lose it. If you end up lost for ever then you never had it.
I understand how some of these verses may seem to us to teach the loss of salvation, but when looked at closely, [B]in context[/B], we can get a better picture of what the Scripture writers are trying to tell us.
[B]So many doctrines of the Bible are misunderstood [/B]by reading a little too much into the text, or adding words or taking away words or equating everything we read with salvation.

Question: Were you taught osas before you read it? You see when you are told what the truth will be before you read it, then your mind will make what you read conform to what you were told. Which = living by you denominational beliefs.

Implication #7:  I exalted myself above you and implied that you were stupid, I never said that, you did


Easy to prove:
I'm sorry but I really don't think you will understand things unless I spend countless hours defining words and bringing up Scriptures where you may not be focused on the context, I just don't have that kind of time. All I can do is ask you to consider what the Bible teaches about what salvation is, why it is necessary, what is necessary for a person to be considered "saved" etc.
You need to keep these things in mind when you read Scripture.

Implication #8:  My apology for not reading that YOU made those videos was half hearted.


Because you continued to have the same attitude about them. That would be like me calling you a name then apologizing then call you another one. Was the apology real? Nope, not if I continue.

Implication #9:  That I don't think that you understand basic Christian doctrines and principles;I never said that, I was trying to explain that we both seem to understand many Biblical terms much differently and to continue dialoging, we would have to define almost every word and come to an agreement as to what they mean.Of which I don't have time.


Seems to me you deny what you do.

Implication # 10:  I used "tactics" to support my beliefs.Just the Bible
I truly believe that you and I have VERY different understandings of Biblical terms such as "salvation" and "everlasting", so it's no wonder we don't agree. If you would care to define in great detail what Biblical "salvation" means to you,I would be eager to hear it.
Chip

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Ikester:

Congratulations!!! YOU WON!!!...I was too stupid to see all my errors, thank you for showing me how stupid I was for using all those stupid comments and stupid implications. Thank you for including me in a challenge...I was too stupid to even see that I was in a challenge!!
And how contradictory it was of me to say that I had no time and then to repost again...how stupid!!! Arrgghh...now I have to leave not only my church, but my denomination that I hold so dear to my heart. Thank you for showing me that my arguments were based on my denomination handbook..I never saw it!!
I would appreciate it if you could lead me to a non-denominational church that upholds to non-OSAS and convert me from the error of my ways.
Thank you Ikester, you have re-saved a once saved sinner from death.
Thank you for the ability to read my heart and to show me how proud I was and exalting myself...I'm sure you know what my handbook says about humility!!!
Just so theres no misunderstandings here...the first time I said I have no time to dialogue with you meant that I have no support for my beliefs and I want to cop out. So now I'm going to say that I want to hang around here and continue debating (which really means that I gotta get busy finding a church that conforms to my new beliefs).
Chip

I doubt you would be eager to listen to anything. You made that clear all through this thread. Your doctrine is perfection, it does not have one thing wrong with it. This is what you imply over and over again.

Don't believe me? Answer this question:

Name one thing that is wrong with your denominational belief?

But let me guess how you will answer all this:

1) You will point out that I said you would have the last word because you really cannot address the post. You lost that privilege when you decided not to return for several days.
2) You will accuse me of taken things out of context, but you would never do that. Your doctrine is perfect so you could never take anything out of context. Only anyone whom disagrees "always" take things out of context, right?
3) You will say I misunderstand only because I don't conform to your osas doctrine. I grew up believing OSAS, so explain what it is I'm misunderstanding?
4) You will post and throw up you hands in frustration saying that I won. Won what?
5) Or ignore and deny that this post even exists, or address only the points that won't make you face reality.

Question: Is believing OSAS a salvation issue? which means people who disagree go to Hell?

#30 ikester7579

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 11:30 PM

Since you seem to think that No-OSAS does not have a foot to stand on. I shall post from my archive. Let's see if your so called countless hours of education that you don't have the time for can even compare.

From my archive:

You have to break down what we become when we are saved.

1) A new creature. Which means we change.
2) A child. Which means we need correction in order to change.

But what is our salvation called?

1) A marriage. Which means we have vows and duties (conditions) to abide by. But it also means that there can be seperation, or divorce. God does not ever divorce us, it is we who divorce Him by our actions. For salvation to be all that it is in the word of God, then all of how it is discribed has to apply. Or it is a lie. So if it's a marriage, then divorce applies. And if it don't, then either the translators made a mistake, or God did.

2) A Gift. Because the salvation is given to all. Both rich and poor, none are excluded if they are willing to believe and have faith. A gift discribes "how" it is given, not how it should be used.

Ac 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Salvation is spiritual, for how can something physical be given in return?

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What could you give in price for something that is priceless? God knew this.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:* it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.**

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.***

* Trying to find another way which would be by the golden rule. This is to show there is only one way to the Father, and that is through His son.

** We are to humble ourselves and not boast. For we become vessels in which God works through, so the works we do are not our own. And the Glory should go to God and not ourselves through boasting to one another.

*** Here it is explained again, in another way, that we are now different (new creatures) in Christ. And that what we do (works) are now good works for Christ, and this work is not of our own doing. For it is not ourselves that the work is done.

So when works are discredited in the God's word, notice that there is a reference to the work being of ourselves. But when work is refered to as a work for Christ, it is refered to as a good work.

This is because, before we were saved, who did we work for? Ourselves. Works that we can boast about that was our own. But after we are saved, our works should only glorify Christ. The testing by fire is to see whether we make this transition from our works to His works. Which is good works.

This is also why christ said that He would have us rather be hot or cold, instead of luke warm. Because when it comes to works of good and bad, you don't want a bunch of bad to stoke the fire they will be tested by.

Cold: Someone who follows, sets a good example, reads Gods word. The work here is not much, but it's not a bunch of bad work. Or carnal work that you can boast about that does not glorify God.

Luke warm: Someone who does not want to release the old work to become a new creature, wants to hold on to it. Allows pride to guide them and tries to glorify self more than God. Looks for more stuff to glorify self. And because they make others look at them more than God, what they do is considered luke warm. And when their works are test by fire, what glorifies them, will burn up, and they will have the smell of smoke upon them.

Hot: Are those who strive for the mark that God would have us all strive for. Most everything they do Glorifies God in one way are another. When people look at them, they see the God this person lives for. They are good examples of what Christ is. And they set this example in every good work they do. And when it comes time to tests their works with fire, very little burns, but the good works, that are not carnal, becomes more purified and Holy in the eyes of God.

So let's see what verses have good works, and notice how it is worded to glorify God:

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Ac 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.

Ro 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.etc...

Then we have wonderful works:

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Ac 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Then we have the works of Christ.

Mt 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

Then we have mighty works:

Mt 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Mt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mt 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

Mt 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Mt 14:2 And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do show forth themselves in him.

Mr 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Mr 6:14And king Herod heard of him; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do show forth themselves in him.

Lu 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Lu 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;etc...

Then we have what I call personal works. These works are either a reference to what is of God or man. God's word uses the term His works and their works to describe this.

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Ac 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

2ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Then we have their works:

Mt 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mt 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

2co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Re 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.etc...

Their are more types of works, but this post is already long. So look it up, it's very interesting to read how each work is applied. And which one's we will be judged on.

#31 ikester7579

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 11:40 PM

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

1.) "If you become luke warm, I shall spew you from my mouth". If you are spewed from the mouth of the body of Christ, you had to be first in the body to come out of the body. Are sinners in the body? Of course not. So it's the saved that are being spoke of here. So the next question is: If you are spewed from the body, are you still going to heaven? No! You have to be in the body of Christ(saved) to get to heaven.

2.) "If you turn your back towards me, I shall turn my back towards you. But if you turn your face towards me, I shall turn my face towards you and heal your lands." Here we see another illustration of what happens when we choose sin over God. But also here we see there is a way out. Repentance of your sins, and turn towards God.

3.) "If a man looketh back from the plow, he is not worthy" The plow is a illustration of doing God's work for his Kingdom (bringing in the harvest which is showing others the salvation of Christ). Looking back from the plow is an illustration of us turning to our flesh(sin). Turning away from God to look at sin. God says that this person is not worthy.

4.) "If you deny me before man, I shall deny you before my father". If you are standing before Jesus and his father(god), and Jesus is gonna deny you. What "is" so important that Jesus can deny you of, before the father? The one thing he gave you by dying on the cross. Also, to be standing before Jesus and the father, you are at Judgement Throne of God. And because Jesus is there and he is denying you of your salvation, you have to be saved. But if Jesus denies you, I don't think your gonna see the pearly Gates. Sinners, on the other hand, will be in front of the Great White Throne. Their fate is sealed. There is nothing for Jesus to deny them of here. There is not a reason for him to be even at this throne. Because there is no defense for those who died without Christ. And there is nothing that can be said by him that would make a difference. Only the blood of the son gives you a defense for your sins.

5.) Matthew 25: 1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4. But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Here we see those who are waiting for the Bridegroom(Jesus). The oil spoke of is referring to the anointing of the holy spirit. 5 of the virgins were foolish. They allowed themselves to become luke warm and unworthy. And 5 were wise. They were steadfast and ready. Not luke warm. And were accepted by Christ. Then the door was shut(reference to the rapture or death). Then Jesus says to the ones who came back later: I know you not. This falls into the same category as: depart from me ye workers of inequity, for I never knew you.

6.) Then there's the reference to the "narrow path". If you cannot lose your salvation why follow the "narrow path"? In fact the "once saved always saved" makes this a broad path. Also, why have judgement? If we go to heaven anyway, why be judged? To be judged is to also be punished also. Is God gonna be a judge that lets everyone on the saved side do anything and just laugh it off? No! The Bible says: Your works will be tested by fire. And if they cannot stand this test they will burn up. And you will have the smell of smoke upon you. God also says: There will be those who will claim to have done all these things in my name and I will say: depart from me ye workers of inequity, for I never knew you. To depart from something, you had to be part of it first. Example: If I depart from you to catch a plane. I had to be first with you.

*7.) "If you change my word by one dot or titel, your name shall be "blotted" from the "book of life". To have your name blotted from the book of life, you had to be in it. The NIV bible omits the word sodomy. Now, if I were to blot that word out, it would first have to be there. Now, if your name is in the book of life, you are saved. And if your name is blotted out of it, you have lost what? But, do you still go to Heaven? Those who have their salvation intact won't be going to hell. But where will those be going that are not in the book of life? Will they still go to heaven? Does your salvation still sound secure(secure salvation is what so many churches teach)?

8.) Then we have the storm that came upon a ship. And Jesus came walking on the water to them. And one of them wanted to walk on the water like Jesus. Jesus said to come. He walk on the water but then became afraid and began to sink. Then fearing for his life ask Jesus to rescue him... Lets break this down for a minute. The one who steps out of the ship was taking the plow. Then he looked back at his flesh and took his eyes off Jesus and became unworthy and began to sink. Realizing he had no where to turn(like many sinners or back sliders) he cried out to Jesus(Put his eye back on Jesus). And because Jesus could save him, He did.

9) Spare the rod spoil the child?
When we say we are once saved always saved, we are accusing God of being a spare the rod spoil the child type of father. God's word is our correction as Christian's. Saying we are always saved makes that correction(God's word) not count. It's like telling a child to not do a particular thing, but when he does it, saying: that's ok. Ok because of what? If God tells us not to spare the rod then you think he will do the same for us?
Once saved always saved, spare the rod, spoil the child. What's the difference? Why would God tell us to do something he is not willing to do himself? Are there gonna be spoiled Christians in heaven? Remember, we are his children. And there is a reason we are referred to as children.
You see the difference between a sinner and the saved is: The sinner sins with no way out. He can pray and ask for forgiveness, but if he has not confessed and accepted Jesus as his or her savior, it's all in vain. For those who accepted Christ can sin also, but we have to ask to be forgiven and try to abstain from sin. If we do not these sins we will be judged on. This is what Jesus died for and that's the reason we have to accept him as our savior.
But just because we are saved does not give us the right to sin. And there are sins that are unforgivable. Even for a saved person. So no we are not let off the hook just because we are saved... As Ambassadors for Christ, in a world full of sin, we have a standard to live by. And the Bible spells this out to us. If we are gonna wear what we believe on our sleeve, then we better be ready to live what it means. And not to be a bad example to all who would look for the light of Christ in us. Does it say anywhere in God's word that after the Christians are judged we will all rejoice in heaven?
God gave me a message on what the Jonah story had in common with the spewing out of the mouth of the body of Christ... In Christ we have salvation, and as long as we look towards him and repent of our sins and do the work of bringing in the harvest, we get to stay in the body... Jon on the other hand, sinned against God by not doing what God asked. "Go into the city to preach to the people". And continued in that sin by running from God. He was swallowed up in his sin(the whale). And when he repented, he was spewed out of the belly of sin(The whale) onto the shore. And he knew to stay out of the belly of sin, he needed to do what God had asked. For if he did not repent of his sin, he would have died in his sin(the belly of the whale). This also falls into the lines of God saying: you are either for me are against me... There is no in between(hedging the fence), Your either in the belly of sin(the whale), or the belly of the salvation(the body of Christ). And because you cannot be in both at the same time, you are spewed from the one that cannot contain you. Which belly are you in? And which belly cannot contain you? And why not? Remember, you can't have it both ways. . So in other words: What is keeping you out of the belly of the body you do not wish to be in? Or, are you already in it, and just did not realize it?
Who are the lukewarm Jesus spoke of?
First I wanna quote the scripture where what I'm speaking of can be found. Revelation 3:15-16. 15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Hot refers to the shepherd. The shepherd is the pastor. He tends to his flock the sheep. Which is the Christians who come to church, tithe, live Godly lives and are a good example of Christ to others. The shepherd is always tending his flock by teaching them the righteous ways of God. He also has to live a godly life and be an example to all who would look towards him for Christ sake. But he also looks for more sheep to increase his flock(the harvest). He is to also use the rod of correction to keep his flock inline with the word of God in how they should act and conduct their lives as Godly people do.
A biblical fact: Did you know that when a sheep leaves the flock the shepherd is to go find that sheep, and if that sheep keeps leaving the flock that shepherd will break the legs of that sheep and carry it around his shoulders until the legs heal? That sheep will become so dependent on that shepherd, that when it's legs heal it will not leave the shepherds side ever again.

So the shepherd is the "hot" person spoke of, and the "sheep" is the cold person spoke of. But who is the "lukewarm" person? He is the person who claims to be a Christian but will not abide by the rules set forth in God's word. He goes to church, he usually does not tithe(his choice), he maybe even involved in a church function. But when he gets home or goes to work, God goes out the door. He does not even think of God again until those days come up that he is supposed to do his Godly duties. Then it's back to the same old lifestyle. He basically is trying to have it both ways. Live in sin with his buddies at work and home. And be Godly, but only when at church or around his Godly friends should they come by. He is saved but is lukewarm in his faith and walk with God and is a bad example of Christ for all that would look for Christ in him. He does more harm to the body of Christ than a unsaved sinner, and because the unsaved will at him and see sin instead of Christ and say: Why should I change? He is no different than me. He is the sheep who is always wondering and trying to play with wolves. In fact, for all the harm that he does to Christ by not living his life as an example he becomes a wolf in sheep's clothing. He will be the one that says in heaven: But I did all these things in your name. And God shall say: depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you. He is the lukewarm Christian's who hedges the fence and won't commit to Christ. And because of this Christ cannot commit to him. Though he may do works for the kingdom, his failure to commit and be a good example makes him lukewarm. In others words, like a double agent. Working for both sides(heaven and hell) and never committing to either. On judgement day, God has no halfway heaven house. Your either in or out. This is why God also said: your either for me or against me.
The lukewarm Christian's also falls into the category where Jesus says: Deny me before men, I shall deny you before the father. Because in their lukewarm life for Christ and sin(an uncommitted life), they have really denied him for not committing their life and how they live it according to the word of God. So if your a Christian, you have to be either cold(sheep) or hot(shepherd)for Christ. But not lukewarm(uncommitted)for Christ.

P.S. So that no one misunderstands what I'm saying here. I'm not saying you are saved by your works. Only Jesus can save you. But being saved has some work to it. It is required or it would not be in the bible at all. Can you honestly tell me that works are not required for the kingdom of heaven after reading about all the works we are supposed to do according to God's word? If so this is a huge conflict in God's word! Actually I think it's for those who want to be lukewarm and still go to heaven. For being a Christian's and living a Godly life, abstaining from sin, resisting temptation etc... is work
To get your salvation back. Just go to the sinners prayer link and rededicate your life to Christ. For if you turn your face back towards him he will turn his face towards you.

#32 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 06:58 AM

Great posts Ikester. I came on here with the intention of adding the scripture about the book of life and you have it covered. I also appreciate the listing of scriptures that reference works.

#33 chipwag64

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:47 PM

Ikester,

I agree with most of post #30 except I can't for the life of me find a passage of Scripture that speaks of divorce from salvation, where is that located?
I also agree with most of post #31
1) You say that Revelation 3:14-22 speaks of "the saved", I don't see where? my translation says "to the angel of the church in Laodicea".
2) I agree
3) I agree
4) Where does the word "salvation" appear in Matthew 10:33 or an equivalent passage that you quoted?
5) I agree
6) narrow path is narrow path, broad is broad." Depart from me.I never knew you"...only now have I understood what you have been saying all along. I understand this as Jesus way of saying.."get away from me", not "get out of me". If these people are talking with Jesus, they must be near Him, just like the foolish virgins on the wrong side of the door. I take this literally, not figuratively.
7) What Scripture are you referencing here?
8) I agree
9) I surely don't believe that!! God disciplines His children (Hebrews 12:5-11) and sinners always have a way out-Jesus Christ the Lord!!

#34 jason777

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 02:14 PM

Ikester,

I agree with most of post #30 except I can't for the life of me find a passage of Scripture that speaks of divorce from salvation, where is that located?
I also agree with most of post #31
1) You say that Revelation 3:14-22 speaks of "the saved", I don't see where? my translation says "to the angel of the church in Laodicea".
2) I agree
3) I agree
4) Where does the word "salvation" appear in Matthew 10:33 or an equivalent passage that you quoted?
5) I agree
6) narrow path is narrow path, broad is broad." Depart from me.I never knew you"...only now have I understood what you have been saying all along. I understand this as Jesus way of saying.."get away from me", not "get out of me". If these people are talking with Jesus, they must be near Him, just like the foolish virgins on the wrong side of the door. I take this literally, not figuratively.
7) What Scripture are you referencing here?
8) I agree
9) I surely don't believe that!! God disciplines His children (Hebrews 12:5-11) and sinners always have a way out-Jesus Christ the Lord!!

View Post


The book of John says "Abide in me and I will abide in you." Clearly, Jesus is saying that we can only be with him if we stay with him.

The bible says other things about being full of jealousy, envy, quarreling etc. and Paul says that they have fallen from grace.




Enjoy.

#35 ikester7579

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 02:33 PM

Ikester,

I agree with most of post #30 except I can't for the life of me find a passage of Scripture that speaks of divorce from salvation, where is that located?


If salvation is a marriage type covenant, then all that applies to marriage also applies to the salvation covenant. Which includes divorce.

I also agree with most of post #31
1) You say that Revelation 3:14-22 speaks of "the saved", I don't see where? my translation says "to the angel of the church in Laodicea".


So from what I gather, you are saying the church of Laodicea are unsaved sinners (not saved), right? So answer these questions:

1) How can they be Hot, Cold, or Lukewarm in the eyes of Christ if they are not saved?
2) How can they be spued out of what they were not in (the body of Christ)?
3) And what good would repenting do for the unsaved when you cannot work your way to Heaven?

The unsaved are already condemned, by what work can they un-condemn themselves besides accepting Christ as their Savior? You see none of what is listed applies unless works get you to heaven. Also, there are no different rules for one group and another to get to heaven. If there was, then the judgment would be flawed because it would be a double standard.

2) I agree
3) I agree
4) Where does the word "salvation" appear in Matthew 10:33 or an equivalent passage that you quoted?


33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


1) The unsaved are already damned, do they become double damned by doing this?
2) Christ is the advocate for the saved, saying that this will allow Him to deny them (the unsaved) before the Father (God), means that Christ would also have to be an advocate for the unsaved. Why? What do the unsaved have to deny? Christ cannot deny what they have "never" obtained, right?

Question: What do the unsaved have that Christ can deny before the Father?

5) I agree
6) narrow path is narrow path, broad is broad." Depart from me.I never knew you"...only now have I understood what you have been saying all along. I understand this as Jesus way of saying.."get away from me", not "get out of me". If these people are talking with Jesus, they must be near Him, just like the foolish virgins on the wrong side of the door. I take this literally, not figuratively.


One cannot depart from what they were never a part of.

Also, I hear it said quite often by osas that if a person does not act a certain way, or commits a certain sin, they are not saved. In a round about way, is that not saying:

1) There are works you are supposed to show to prove your salvation?
2) That there are conditions about your life and how you live it that prove you are saved?

Even though osas preaches unconditional salvation, they also contradict themselves.

7) What Scripture are you referencing here?


rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Why even mention being blotted out of the book of life if it cannot be done? You first have to be written in it before you can be blotted out or have your part taken out of it. Which means you were saved, and when removed you are not longer saved because:

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Whosoever = anyone.

8) I agree
9) I surely don't believe that!! God disciplines His children (Hebrews 12:5-11) and sinners always have a way out-Jesus Christ the Lord!!

View Post


But, they have to "choose" that way out. If a saved person does not repent and ask for forgiveness, God's grace will cover it for so long. If the refusal to repent and ask forgiveness continues, God's graces runs out and they are fallen from grace. You see grace is there to give us time to repent and ask for forgiveness, it is not there to make salvation a ticket to sin, or to be abused. That is why it says:

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

You see when the saved refuse to repent and ask for forgiveness, they have allowed Christ to no longer be an effect in their lives because they are denying the way He has given us to get out of sin. So when it is refused long enough (abusing grace or using it as a ticket to sin), only the law of the old covenant is left. Because grace no longer applies.

#36 chipwag64

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 12:55 AM

Ikester,

I already told you in March 22 post that Jesus covered divorce in Matthew 19. Verse 6 says "What God has joined together, let not man separate". Divorce was an allowance because of hardness of heart, which is sin, for earthly relationships. If you do not have a verse that says that it applies to a heavenly marriage, then its an implication, not Scripture.
I'm not saying that the church of Laodicea has all saved or unsaved people, I have no idea if they were saved or unsaved individually, if the text doesn't mention their salvific status, I just want you to tell me what makes you believe that they were all "saved"?
As far as the Matthew 10:33 text,again, I ask where the text has any mention of anyones salvific status? especially if Jesus had not yet gone to the cross? I believe Jesus is saying to everyone listening a simple statement. In verse 32.."everyone", in verse 33..."whoever".
I can depart from a million things I was never a part of. I can walk up to any family reunion and they can tell me to depart, your not a member of this family. I can walk into a Sams Club and they can say depart, your not a member etc.
I can't speak for other people, but I DO NOT believe in unconditional salvation, thats unbiblical, the Bible is chock full of conditions.
You mentioned a verse about changing God's word by a dot (jot) or tittle along with the blotting out of the Book of Life, was that your wording of Rev 3:5 or Rev 22:19? If so, no biggie...It just didn't sound familiar..anyway:
I believe that peoples names can be blotted out of the Book of Life!! because Rev 22:19 says so. I haven't read in the Bible how this Book works,I will look for more Scripture that explains in detail whose names are in and when they are first written in the Book.
As far as the Galatians 5:4 passage, once again, I ask where you get the idea that "whosoever of you are justified by the law" equates to "saved" people? My understanding of salvation is that we are justified by faith, not law.
Over and over I keep asking you to define "salvation" in detail as you understand it. I believe we both (as I have said earlier) have a different understanding of what "salvation" means.
Chip

#37 chipwag64

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 02:58 PM

Jason,
I agree that we need to abide in Him!! I'm not sure what you mean about jealousy, envy and quarreling? are you talking about Galatians 5:19-21?
Ikester,
I really, honestly want you to show me what I'm missing in these verses. How would I go about discerning someones salvation status if the text doesn't mention it?
Chip

#38 ikester7579

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 08:16 PM

Ikester,

I already told you in March 22 post that Jesus covered divorce in Matthew 19. Verse 6 says "What God has joined together, let not man separate". Divorce was an allowance because of hardness of heart, which is sin, for earthly relationships. If you do not have a verse that says that it applies to a heavenly marriage, then its an implication, not Scripture.


There is a difference between "let not" and cannot. Cannot is in the Bible . Also it "never" says divorce is only for earthly relationships. You are adding what is not there. I did not see you provide a verse that says: divorce only applies to earthly relationships. If you cannot provide such a verse, then you are making the Word conform to your doctrine.

I'm not saying that the church of Laodicea has all saved or unsaved people, I have no idea if they were saved or unsaved individually, if the text doesn't mention their salvific status, I just want you to tell me what makes you believe that they were all "saved"?


Why would you warn unsaved sinners when they are already damned for Hell? Get saved is the message which by the way is no where in those verses. You here are clearly ignoring things because you don't want to be wrong. I have been there done that. It only hinders your growth and knowledge of truth.

As far as the Matthew 10:33 text,again, I ask where the text has any mention of anyones salvific status? especially if Jesus had not yet gone to the cross? I believe Jesus is saying to everyone listening a simple statement. In verse 32.."everyone", in verse 33..."whoever".
I can depart from a million things I was never a part of. I can walk up to any family reunion and they can tell me to depart, your not a member of this family. I can walk into a Sams Club and they can say depart, your not a member etc.
I can't speak for other people, but I DO NOT believe in unconditional salvation, thats unbiblical, the Bible is chock full of conditions.
You mentioned a verse about changing God's word by a dot (jot) or tittle along with the blotting out of the Book of Life, was that your wording of Rev 3:5 or Rev 22:19? If so, no biggie...It just didn't sound familiar..anyway:
I believe that peoples names can be blotted out of the Book of Life!! because Rev 22:19 says so. I haven't read in the Bible how this Book works,I will look for more Scripture that explains in detail whose names are in and when they are first written in the Book.
As far as the Galatians 5:4 passage, once again, I ask where you get the idea that "whosoever of you are justified by the law" equates to "saved" people? My understanding of salvation is that we are justified by faith, not law.
Over and over I keep asking you to define "salvation" in detail as you understand it. I believe we both (as I have said earlier) have a different understanding of what "salvation" means.
Chip

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I'm not even going to address the rest of this. you make it very clear that regardless of the verse showed, or the reasoning that supports those verses, you will twist what is said to support osas. If you want to believe it so bad, then so be it. But don't come in this thread like you are going to debate fairly when you already know there is nothing no one can tell you or show you that will change your mind.

Now you might say: you are that way also. Not really. I have been on both sides of the track (believed in osas first, and found no-osas works better with God's word). So I already know what osas is all about. You have no idea as to what no-osas is about, neither will you listen and will twist what ever is said so it sounds like it can only conform to what you believe.

In fact just to show you that you cannot be corrected in this even if wrong, I will ask you a question that you will not be able to answer straight forward. And if someone met that criteria you require, you'd still deny it,

What would you require that would make you realize osas is wrong? If you even have to struggle with your answer, then it proves you cannot be corrected on this issue and prefer to be dogmatic. I am trying to help you see something, though I doubt you would believe that.

#39 chipwag64

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 01:53 PM

What would you require that would make you realize osas is wrong?
The Bible!!!! :)

#40 ikester7579

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 09:59 PM

What would you require that would make you realize osas is wrong?
The Bible!!!!   :P

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A broad stroke answer is a cop out. And shows me I was right. Putting the smiley at the end shows you know this and could care less.

So what did I not show you that was not in the Bible? Your interpretation of it?

Let's make this a little more interesting since you claim the Bible supports everything osas. Do you look towards God or man when wanting to know exact truth about salvation? And if you look towards God:

1) Exactly how did you accomplish this?
2) What kinds of tests did you go through?
3) How long did you have to wait to get your answer?

You see there is a process to doing this. And if your truth finding was through God, then you will know the process. And you will be able to express your experience in it and articulate why you had to go through what you did.




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