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Once Saved Always Saved, Is It Biblical?


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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 12:16 AM

Over the years of being here and posting here, I have done several threads on this subject. But it's always hard to put verses into prospective so that everyone understands. While searching youtube, I ran across a video of a preacher I never heard of before. But he puts into better prospective than I can.

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I'm an ex-osas (once saved always saved) believer. There are to many verses I have found that contradict osas.

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 12:39 AM

Here are some videos I did on the subject that may add to what the guy above said.

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#3 chipwag64

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 06:21 PM

Sorry, but not ONE of the verses in the first video have anything to do with losing salvation. In 2 Corinthians 13:5 Paul is very simply saying that Christ is either in you or he isn't, not once did Paul say that he WAS in you and left.
In John 15:5 Jesus is saying that you can't bear fruit apart from Him, anyone who leaves was never saved in the first place which is BEAUTIFULLY layed out in 1 John 2:19-20.Those that left were NEVER believers, so what's the difference between those that left and those who remained?...verse 20...they had the Holy Spirit!!!
1 Chronicles 28:9 This is an Old Testament passage, the Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell people.
Hebrews 6:5-6 This is a continuation of the end of chapter 5. These people were stuck on the basic foundational principals of Christianity and should have been able to teach others the harder things of the faith. They were probably wondering every single day if they were saved. Paul, here, is simply saying.."Get on with it...grow up..if you've repented and believed on Jesus and got baptized and believe in His resurrection and also are aware of eternal judgment ( if you HAVE'NT done these things),well, there is nothing more left to do, except GROW!!! He goes on to show them that God is faithful to do His part!! The only ones who could fall away are the ones who observed at a distance and got a little taste of the good life,sang some songs,said some prayers but never FULLY believed.
Hebrews 10:26 Almost the same thing is going on here. Paul is simply saying that if you have received the Gospel and you understand your need for forgiveness and you never repent and believe...all you have to look forward to is judgment!!
Hebrews 10 up to verse 21 is showing that God did His part, from verse 22 to 31 is a call for us to do our part with CONFIDENCE because God is faithful!! verse 32 to 34 is a reminder of how they suffered which is a great sign that they have the Holy Spirit!! OSAS is clearly biblical and should be a WONDERFUL encouragement to us.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but when people say that you can lose YOUR salvation, I say "of course you can, but you can NEVER, EVER lose GOD'S salvation"..LOL

#4 chipwag64

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 06:37 PM

I couldn't listen to much of that second guy, he was WAY off base!!!, I sure hope he's not a pastor or teacher !!!

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 02:43 AM

Sorry, but not ONE of the verses in the first video have anything to do with losing salvation. In 2 Corinthians 13:5 Paul is very simply saying that Christ is either in you or he isn't, not once did Paul say that he WAS in you and left.
In John 15:5 Jesus is saying that you can't bear fruit apart from Him, anyone who leaves was never saved in the first place which is BEAUTIFULLY layed out in 1 John 2:19-20.Those that left were NEVER believers, so what's the difference between those that left and those who remained?...verse 20...they had the Holy Spirit!!!
1 Chronicles 28:9 This is an Old Testament passage, the Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell people.
Hebrews 6:5-6  This is a continuation of the end of chapter 5. These people were stuck on the basic foundational principals of Christianity and should have been able to teach others the harder things of the faith. They were probably wondering every single day if they were saved. Paul, here, is simply saying.."Get on with it...grow up..if you've repented and believed on Jesus and got baptized and believe in His resurrection and also are aware of eternal judgment ( if you HAVE'NT done these things),well, there is nothing more left to do, except GROW!!! He goes on to show them that God is faithful to do His part!! The only ones who could fall away are the ones who observed at a distance and got a little taste of the good life,sang some songs,said some prayers but never FULLY believed.
Hebrews 10:26  Almost the same thing is going on here. Paul is simply saying that if you have received the Gospel and you understand your need for forgiveness and you never repent and believe...all you have to look forward to is judgment!!
Hebrews 10 up to verse 21 is showing that God did His part, from verse 22 to 31 is a call for us to do our part with CONFIDENCE because God is faithful!! verse 32 to 34 is a reminder of how they suffered which is a great sign that they have the Holy Spirit!! OSAS is clearly biblical and should be a WONDERFUL encouragement to us.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but when people say that you can lose YOUR salvation, I say "of course you can, but you can NEVER, EVER lose GOD'S salvation"..LOL

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Is not salvation also deemed as a type of marriage covenant?
Does not marriage also have divorce?

rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Unsaved sinners are not in the book of life because they are not save. And I would challenge you to prove differently using the word of God. And if you cannot, then it proves that the saved get taken out of the book of life which = losing salvation. Can someone be saved and their name not be in the book of life?

And when you are saved, are you not saved by grace? So what happens when you fall from it?

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

And when you are saved, are you not in the body of Christ? What happens when you get removed for being lukewarm?

rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

You see a lukewarm life mocks God, and God is not mocked. If you sow an unsaved life (living like a unsaved sinner when you are saved), then you shall reap it.

gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I couldn't listen to much of that second guy, he was WAY off base!!!, I sure hope he's not a pastor or teacher !!!


The second guy is me, but no problem. I take no offense to disagreement. I only take offense to people whom are clearly shown correction in God's word, but prefer their denominational teaching instead (making their denomination their god).

When we become knowledgeable enough in God's word to be able to test doctrine, but then refuse to do so because:

1) We absolutely trust our pastor and exalt them to a level of perfection that is not obtainable. Then we do ourselves. and them a disservice. and if we knew better. then there can be no excuse.
2) We make our denomination into perfection when there can never be perfect truth because perfect truth is not obtainable (like God would consider perfect truth to be).
3) We exalt ourselves through our belief, and look down upon others who do not exactly believe as we do. Implying that unless everyone else believes exactly as we do, they are not saved.
etc...

Salvation is a condition of the heart, not the opinions of others. This is also why our hearts can be hardened. The heart is the only organ in our body that can communicate with our brain in 4 different ways.

1) Neurological communication (nervous system)
2) Biophysical communication (pulse wave)
3) Biochemical communication (hormones)
4) Energetic communication (electromagnetic fields)

It has now been determined that the heart also has it's own brain.
Posted Image

And this would explain the side effects some people get from heart transplants:
1) The other person's memories.
2) The other person's food cravings.
3) Some of the other person's attitudes.
4) And some of the fears, hates, and loves of different things.

As many heart transplant patients will testify to in the video below.



This is also why Christ resides in our hearts instead of our minds.

#6 MarkForbes

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 05:28 AM

Is not salvation also deemed as a type of marriage covenant?
Does not marriage also have divorce?

... That would link to an issue of souvereignity of man and of course God as well.

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 05:59 AM

... That would link to an issue of souvereignity of man and of course God as well.

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A lot of what God says for us to do has a dual meaning and we don't even realize it. Like God saying: Thou shalt not commit adultery. Ever thought that it might apply to spiritual adultery (putting things before or above God) as well?

God would never do what would be considered a spiritual adultery, but for us it's a different situation.

#8 jason777

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:11 AM

From what I've learned: sin is not an issue, but was the penalty sufficent. The blood of Christ covers all sin if you remain in him. Paul warns us that a deacon can not be a recent convert or he may become full of pride and fall into the same judgement as the devil.

So I would have to say that a man can only be saved if he remains faithful to the covenant. If we revert back to our former selves, then we forfeit that covenant and have to pay with our own blood.

I don't think that anyone who ever got saved would ever reject Christ totally enough to get unsaved because if they weren't sincere in faith, then they wouldn't have been saved to start with. We simply fall into a trap that we later recognize and repent of.

Case in point: The bible tells us that if we belong to him, then he will not let us be tempted beyond that which we can stand. The Lord will intervene if our weakness is overwhelming.

#9 chipwag64

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 06:58 PM

Sorry Ikester, didn't mean to put you down, didn't realize that you were doing the video!! I just get a little nervous when people put up personal public teachings.
As far as the marriage covenant and divorce, Jesus covered that in Matthew 19, divorce was given as an earthly option, but only because of the hardness of peoples hearts. In eternity, neither God nor redeemed sinner will have hard hearts.
Galatians 5:4 very easy, these people have not understood the purpose and the weakness of the Law, seeking to be justified by works and not grace, they never had salvation, but may still yet understand what Christ did more fully and come to faith. Anyone who believes that salvation is by works and the Law has no salvation!!
The Revelation passage is written to a specific local church in Asia. The church,if unrepentant, is of no use to the Lord if it is not doing His work, so Jesus is saying that the local church of Laodicea on the whole is not right and the church may be disbanded. Any individuals in that church who repent will be rewarded. All churches everywhere probably have some who are not saved in their midst.
I, myself, do not see any references to losing salvation anywhere in the New Testament, but on the contrary, many that teach this:
If you truly have it, you can't lose it. If you end up lost for ever then you never had it.
I understand how some of these verses may seem to us to teach the loss of salvation, but when looked at closely, in context, we can get a better picture of what the Scripture writers are trying to tell us.
So many doctrines of the Bible are misunderstood by reading a little too much into the text, or adding words or taking away words or equating everything we read with salvation.
I hope you will continue to search these verses and others you may have to see if they really teach the loss of salvation.

#10 chipwag64

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:21 PM

As far as the divorce aspect of possibly losing your salvation, I haven't explained that too well. Jesus said that you MUST be born again to enter the kingdom. When someone is born again, they have a new heart; a heart that is no longer in bondage to sin and dominated by sin. Until someone has a new heart, they cannot be said to have been saved.
Once we have a new heart, we are able to see the beauty of Jesus and love Him which we could not do beforehand.
Matthew 12:34-35, see also the parable of the sower, there ARE people who believe for a little while, but when it gets hard and costly they wither away...NEVER truly saved!!

#11 ikester7579

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 09:44 PM

Sorry Ikester, didn't mean to put you down, didn't realize that you were doing the video!! I just get a little nervous when people put up personal public teachings.
As far as the marriage covenant and divorce, Jesus covered that in Matthew 19, divorce was given as an earthly option, but only because of the hardness of peoples hearts. In eternity, neither God nor redeemed sinner will have hard hearts.


We were created a little lower than the angels, yet one of them sinned and was cast out of Heaven. If we have a better deal with God than they do, then being created lower does not apply.

Galatians 5:4 very easy, these people have not understood the purpose and the weakness of the Law, seeking to be justified by works and not grace, they never had salvation, but may still yet understand what Christ did more fully and come to faith.


There are 2 problems with your interpretation of Galatians 5:4
gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1) Christ cannot become of no effect to someone who has "never" received Him. An unsaved sinner is not effected by Christ until they are saved, So there is no effect to lose unless you are saved.
2) Fallen from grace. Can a unsaved sinner fall from the grace of God which he never had? To fall from something you first had to obtain it. Example: Can you fall from being in love with someone whom you never loved in the first place?

Anyone who believes that salvation is by works and the Law has no salvation!!
The Revelation passage is written to a specific local church in Asia. The church,if unrepentant, is of no use to the Lord if it is not doing His work, so Jesus is saying that the local church of Laodicea on the whole is not right and the church may be disbanded. Any individuals in that church who repent will be rewarded. All churches everywhere probably have some who are not saved in their midst.


Salvation by works only is the golden rule life, where works save you. It has nothing to do with losing salvation because the people who believe in works only never had it.

So there are sins one group can commit and will be condemned for while they do not apply to everyone else? That's a double standard. There will be no double standard judgment.

I, myself, do not see any references to losing salvation anywhere in the New Testament, but on the contrary, many that teach this:
If you truly have it, you can't lose it. If you end up lost for ever then you never had it.


I would like to see a verse to back that comment up.

I understand how some of these verses may seem to us to teach the loss of salvation, but when looked at closely, in context, we can get a better picture of what the Scripture writers are trying to tell us.
So many doctrines of the Bible are misunderstood by reading a little too much into the text, or adding words or taking away words or equating everything we read with salvation.
I hope you will continue to search these verses and others you may have to see if they really teach the loss of salvation.

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I used to be osas. And I did research it. I stepped out of defending my denomination to instead adhere to the word of God. Once done I could not longer find support for osas. So I no longer believe it.

My preacher preached a sermon that salvation is a ticket to sin. That sinners sin and are damned for it, we sin the same sins and still go to heaven. So go out and sin all you want, and we still get to Heaven.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

As far as erring from the truth bad enough to need to be converted so that your soul can be saved from death? If you cannot see salvation lost here, then you are blind. Soul death is also called the second death. Which is being cast into the Lake of Fire.

rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I will accept correction when shown in the word of God. I have yet to have any osas believer do so. What I see more often than not is have osas believers avoid any verses on losing salvation that I post then claim they don't exist.

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:40 PM

As far as the divorce aspect of possibly losing your salvation, I haven't explained that too well. Jesus said that you MUST be born again to enter the kingdom. When someone is born again, they have a new heart; a heart that is no longer in bondage to sin and dominated by sin. Until someone has a new heart, they cannot be said to have been saved.
Once we have a new heart, we are able to see the beauty of Jesus and love Him which we could not do beforehand.
Matthew 12:34-35, see also the parable of the sower, there ARE people who believe for a little while, but when it gets hard and costly they wither away...NEVER truly saved!!

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You are implying here that:

1) When a person changes, there are things (sins) they can no longer can commit. I have yet to see a osas believer provide verses to back that up. Like the unforgiven sins. It is claimed that because the saved cannot lose their salvation, they cannot, or are not able to commit that sin. Yet I still wait for verses.
2) Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Out of context.

Let's look at a verse before that:

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

1) Whosoever = anyone. Saved or unsaved.
2) Shall not be forgiven = lost salvation if saved. Because one unforgiven sin keeps a person out of Heaven.

Osas appeals to the flesh. Christ did not die for a temptation to sin type covenant. How does it appeal to the flesh? How does it make you feel to know that you can commit any sin after being saved, and still end up in Heaven?

jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

But let's take this a little further. At the judgment throne of Christ, who are the goats? Osas believers say that the goats are unsaved sinners. Let's look at the verse:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Things to ponder:
1) The sheep and goats are together.
2) Christ separates them in the left hand right hand judgment.
3) No where in God's word does it ever refer to goats as unsaved sinners. So who are the goats?
4) The goats are thrown onto the fire. In the old covenant, what are goats on a fire? Sin atonement.
5) This was the first judgment, there is a second one. These people will be judged again (exchange of hands as in John 10:27-30). No where in God's word is it referred to as being in the hands of Christ saves you. Being in the body means you are saved. So hands are the judgment of Christ or Father God.

Why throw the goats into the fire as sin atonement? Fire cannot save you or can it?

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

How do you think God keeps the promise that your whole house hold will be saved:

acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

If some do not get saved? So the reason the ones separated from the sheep are renamed goats is so the fire that they are cast into can purify them and when they come up for the second judgment. They will appear atoned for their sins before Father God.

If not. maybe you can explain how your house can be saved if some do not accept Christ?

#13 chipwag64

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 01:34 PM

Post # 11 response:
The point of Galatians 5:4 is that if you believe in works salvation, then Christs work has no effect, it can't be both, it's either works or grace!!
verse support: Romans 4:14, Galatians 2:21, Romans 11:5-6.
Fallen from GRACE (not salvation). Grace and salvation are two seperate things.
Scripture support for OSAS:
John 6:35-40, how can you have "everlasting" life in Hell?
John 10:26-30, never means never
Matthew 7:23, how can Jesus say "I never knew you" if they were once saved?
Hebrews 12:2 self explanatory. Philippians 1:6 same thing, notice the words "confident" and "will perform it".
Romans 8 basically the whole chapter, notice the last two verses, Paul could think of NOTHING that could separate us from the love of Christ!!
Paul writes in many places about being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit, who is a "guarantee" of our inheritance...I have many more verses
The James 5 passage you keep bringing up, it has been addressed, but, I'll go over it again...
I can't speak for anyone else, but I do NOT take the liberty of judging who is saved and who isn't. If someone shows all the signs of faith I can only hope and assume that they are BEING saved.
If someone who for a long time, or even a short time exhibited a period of faith through good doctrine, godly living etc. and then they start to show serious error, they need to be turned back because they may not have ever been saved, it's that simple. The parable of the Sower shows this clearly...there are people who for a time are on fire and show great signs of conversion, but unfortunately, they end up falling away (Luke 8:13). If you want to say that James is saying that you can lose your salvation, that's up to you, but call me blind if you will, but I don't see the word "salvation" here.

#14 chipwag64

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 01:49 PM

Post #12 response:
implication #1, I don't believe that there are sins that a saved person cannot commit.
Matthew 12:32 comment; shall not be forgiven=lost salvation if saved.
Sorry, but if there is even ONE sin anywhere in someones life that is not forgiven, no matter how big or small, they are not saved, how is that unforgiven sin going to get forgiven??????
How does it make you feel to know that you can commit any sin after being saved, and still end up in Heaven?
GREAT!!!
I don't understand the goat thing that you were talking about, it almost sounds like some kind of purgatory??
I also am not following the whole household being saved thing either; I believe that all who God calls will have eternal life according to His promise, just as it says in Acts 2:39

#15 chipwag64

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 02:02 PM

Ikester,

I can appreciate your comment about not defending your denomination. That is why I don't refer to myself as a "Baptist" or a "Calvinist".
I always say that we should let our theology label us, not let our labels define our theology. I would like to ask you how a person could "lose" salvation? by what means? and where are there clear evidences of this in Scripture?
I'm glad that you could see the error of the preacher who taught that you can have a ticket to sin...did he skip over Romans 6?, but I would ask that you seriously look at all these verses carefully word for word, in context and see if they really speak of "losing salvation".
Maybe you could start a thread on the topic of "Salvation"? I would be interested to see how people believe a person can acquire salvation, and what they believe we are being "saved" from? also how someone could "lose" it.

Chip

#16 ikester7579

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 10:58 PM

Post #12 response:
implication #1, I don't believe that there are sins that a saved person cannot commit.


Really? Then they can commit the unforgiven sin and lose their salvation?

Matthew 12:32 comment; shall not be forgiven=lost salvation if saved.
Sorry, but if there is even ONE sin anywhere in someones life that is not forgiven, no matter how big or small, they are not saved, how is that unforgiven sin going to get forgiven??????


So the Bible is wrong about unforgiven sins. Do you think the idea of unforgiven sins was thought up in my head when I can back it up with a verse?

How does it make you feel to know that you can commit any sin after being saved, and still end up in Heaven?
GREAT!!!


Then you also support salvation as ticket to sin.

I don't understand the goat thing that you were talking about, it almost sounds like some kind of purgatory??


Then explain who the goats are, back it up with scripture.

Ask yourself this:
1) Why were the sheep and goats together in the first place?
2) Why were they thrown into hell being judged for "kingdom works" and not whether they were saved or not? No where in that judgment did it say anything about salvation being the issue. Only that they did not do what they were supposed to do as Christians. You want to know why? Christ's throne is the "saved". All the unsaved were thrown into Hell. And not one was pulled out of Hell to be judged at that throne.
3) If you say the unsaved were the goats, here the problem that arises. If the unsaved are being judged and thrown into Hell for kingdom works, then this proves works get you to Heaven. Why? Again, salvation is not mentioned, so salvation is not the issue kingdom works are. And works alone don't get you to Heaven do they? Nope. So the goats are not unsaved sinners. They are Christians who lost salvation.
4) Goats on a fire are sin atonement in the old covenant. The next judgment up is the one where Father God is the representation of that covenant. And "everyone" from Hell gets pulled up for that judgment, right? There is not one verse that says anyone is left in Hell and will not be judged. So this means the goats will be pulled up and judged again.
5) And because God requires animal sacrifice for sin atonement, these people appear before God as that. Goats on a fire.
6)But you will say: But I thought "everyone" at the Great White Throne went to Hell? Yes, so did I. This is what I was taught but I found in my research of the goats that this is not true.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You see the word in bold "whosoever"? Whosoever = a chance that someone will appear in the book of life and will not go to Hell at this throne. If everyone goes to Hell here, do you think whosoever would have been used? This started my search on who would be able to enter Heaven here. The only ones that would fit the bill are the goats. Why? Unsaved sinners have no chance, right? So these were the only ones that would fit the bill of the whosoever.

I also am not following the whole household being saved thing either; I believe that all who God calls will have eternal life according to His promise, just as it says in Acts 2:39

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If God makes an open end promise that your house will be saved. And your house does not turn to Christ and go to Hell, was not the promise broken? If you can correct me on this with scripture that there is a condition to this promise, I will accept.

#17 ikester7579

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:23 AM

Post # 11 response:
The point of Galatians 5:4 is that if you believe in works salvation, then Christs work has no effect, it can't be both, it's either works or grace!!


Losing salvation has nothing to do with working to obtain it.

verse support: Romans 4:14, Galatians 2:21, Romans 11:5-6.
Fallen from GRACE (not salvation). Grace and salvation are two seperate things.


Then I don't need grace to obtain salvation? In fact I don't need any grace, right? So why have grace at all? you are defending your denominational belief, because there are no verses to support grace not being needed with salvation. Or that grace is separate from salvation. So provide verses that show this.

Scripture support for OSAS:
John 6:35-40, how can you have "everlasting" life in Hell?


So you believe there is no Hell?

John 10:26-30, never means never


John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

What you miss is the condition (in bold) to the "never perish". If you reject the counsel of the Holy Spirit. and stop following. The "never perish" part no longer applies. If the never perish part was an open end promise, there would have been no condition mentioned.

Matthew 7:23, how can Jesus say "I never knew you" if they were once saved?


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You leave out the: "depart from me" because you know that you cannot depart from what you were "never" a part of. Never knew you = someone who got saved and never did anything for Christ. Never listened to the Holy Spirit, never followed the word of God. So how can Christ know someone who got saved and never did anything to seal the relationship and covenant they entered. It's like having a child that continually rebelled. When they grow up, they are not a product of your upbringing so therefore you really never knew them.

Hebrews 12:2 self explanatory. Philippians 1:6 same thing, notice the words "confident" and "will perform it".


Neither have anything to do with osas.

Romans 8 basically the whole chapter, notice the last two verses, Paul could think of NOTHING that could separate us from the love of Christ!!
Paul writes in many places about being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit, who is a "guarantee" of our inheritance...I have many more verses


Since you claim the whole chapter support osas, let's go through it and see:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The condition to no condemnation is that the person must not walk after the flesh but after the spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And then the condition is brought up again.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So now we see more detail to this. Those who are carnal mind, such as carnal Christians. Are enmity against God. So a carnal Christian that prefers the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Here we see that it is made clear that this does not apply to the unsaved: Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

And here it is confirmed that in order for this to apply Christ has to dwell in you. The unsaved are not the matter here.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Brethren = believer. And it shows that the believer can live for the flesh which will put a wedge between that person and God.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Osas is the spirit of bondage because it takes away the option to choose. You are saved whether you like it or not. You will stay saved whether you like it or not.

No choice, no freewill = bondage.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

You can only inherit something if you remain a part of Christ. In His body.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Not sure what all that means.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Hope = faith.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Talking about people who are called to do His purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1) He has to foreknow to also predestinate. Also notice that it says: Many brethren, not all brethren.
2) Notice in verse 30 that it says: whom He did predestinate. Which means not all are predestined. No predestination = freewill and choice.
3) He also called, and whom He called He also justified and glorified. Again the word whom is used, not all.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Intercession is not needed if we are all locked into salvation. Why make a case before God if the outcome is already sealed?

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice that what is left out is our freewill to choose to turn away from God.
1) Tribulation.
2) Distress.
3) Persecution.
4) Famine.
5) Nakedness.
6) Peril.
7) Sword.
8) Death.
9) Life.
10) Angels.
11) Principalities.
12) Powers.
13) Present.
14) Future.
15) Height.
16) Depth.
17) Another creature.

But it does not have in that list that by our own freewill choice we can fall away, or err from truth, or fall from grace.

The James 5 passage you keep bringing up, it has been addressed, but, I'll go over it again...
I can't speak for anyone else, but I do NOT take the liberty of judging who is saved and who isn't. If someone shows all the signs of faith I can only hope and assume that they are BEING saved.

Our actions do not determine our salvation. The new in Christ are not expected to be like the ones who have known Christ for a long time. It is the condition of the heart that determines this and only Christ or Father God can know this.

If someone who for a long time, or even a short time exhibited a period of faith through good doctrine, godly living etc. and then they start to show serious error, they need to be turned back because they may not have ever been saved, it's that simple. The parable of the Sower shows this clearly...there are people who for a time are on fire and show great signs of conversion, but unfortunately, they end up falling away (Luke 8:13). If you want to say that James is saying that you can lose your salvation, that's up to you, but call me blind if you will, but I don't see the word "salvation" here.

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This is where you err. Godly living does not = salvation. If you think about it, by saying this you are implying you have to live a certain way which using your logic = works for salvation.

Living a Godly life means salvation which = works. Because if a person does not, you say they are not saved. Becoming a new creature does not = losing your freewill choice.

Example: If our lives determine salvation, then when we sin does that also say we are not saved? Outward appearances does not = salvation. If it did then every unsaved sinner who is faking it would actually be saved.

#18 ikester7579

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:26 AM

Ikester,

I can appreciate your comment about not defending your denomination. That is why I don't refer to myself as a "Baptist" or a "Calvinist".
I always say that we should let our theology label us, not let our labels define our theology. I would like to ask you how a person could "lose" salvation? by what means? and where are there clear evidences of this in Scripture?
I'm glad that you could see the error of the preacher who taught that you can have a ticket to sin...did he skip over Romans 6?, but I would ask that you seriously look at all these verses carefully word for word, in context and see if they really speak of "losing salvation".
Maybe you could start a thread on the topic of "Salvation"? I would be interested to see how people believe a person can acquire salvation, and what they believe we are being "saved" from? also how someone could "lose" it.

Chip

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That is what this thread is addressing.

Do you believe there is a Hell and that people will go there?

#19 chipwag64

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 12:22 PM

Ikester,

I had a good chuckle!!!, you argue just like someone else on this forum!!
by trying to defend your position, you are actually making my points for me and you don't even see it. I'm wondering if you are not related to that other person...LOL. That's too funny!
I'm sorry but I really don't think you will understand things unless I spend countless hours defining words and bringing up Scriptures where you may not be focused on the context, I just don't have that kind of time. All I can do is ask you to consider what the Bible teaches about what salvation is, why it is necessary, what is necessary for a person to be considered "saved" etc.
You need to keep these things in mind when you read Scripture.

#20 ikester7579

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 03:48 PM

Ikester,

I had a good chuckle!!!, you argue just like someone else on this forum!!
by trying to defend your position, you are actually making my points for me and you don't even see it. I'm wondering if you are not related to that other person...LOL. That's too funny!
I'm sorry but I really don't think you will understand things unless I spend countless hours defining words and bringing up Scriptures where you may not be focused on the context, I just don't have that kind of time. All I can do is ask you to consider what the Bible teaches about what salvation is, why it is necessary, what is necessary for a person to be considered "saved" etc.
You need to keep these things in mind when you read Scripture.

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So I guess you really cannot use scripture to debunk it, so you give up and chuckle? Anyway, I think you are copping out because you cannot hold your position with someone whom actually has some wisdom concerning God's word. To bad though. Nice try trying to declare being the winner this way. You make my case by giving up. By the way, is this what you did in the other debate with the other person you speak of? Give up and chuckle and try to declare victory? It's just a cop out.

With due respect, I find it ironic that there are more osas people I have debated than I can count that have done the same thing you are doing. Is this how you guys justify your belief, quitting when the water gets a little hot and try to declare victory?

And your claim of countless hours of scripture? I have debated this subject enough to know that you pretty much used almost every verse that is supposed to support osas. So what's left that will take countless hours? Not much. In fact, just so you know, currently I am only debating from memory on the subject. If I broke into my archive of subjects that support losing salvation, and that salvation requires "kingdom works", it would boggle your mind. I even have a very long list of the types of works found in God's word that are required of every Christian. Is it works for salvation? Nope. It's works required of us by the covenant we entered with Christ. No where in God's word does it say that the covenant we entered is one sided. We have an end to hold up to. It's not my problem that some would rather do nothing for the kingdom and come up with a way to justify it by twisting the word of God and end up in Heaven regardless.

Question: Why is there a works judgment if kingdom works are not required? Is your hay, wood and stubble going to burn up? If you think kingdom works are not required and do nothing, it will.

Now why did I not list my archived stuff first? No osas believer would post in the thread because it always scares them off. I know because when I did it before the thread was nothing bu crickets chirping. So I always hold back until someone with actual knowledge in the word enters the debate. Otherwise I waste my time. In fact if you want to see who has the most countless hours of information, then you can post yours and we will see. But let's be honest, your comment was more of a cop out wasn't it? And If not, I'm waiting.




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