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Biblical Seperation Of Church And State


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#1 rico

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 11:29 AM

After watching the video from the American Heritage DVD on youtube; 4.1b - Bible on separation of church and state; Engel vs Vitale....

TkihfBQniik

I'm confused :) have questions:

1. What types of relationships does this apply to? 2. Is it biblical?

3. How do they know how to categorize the relationships?-- Is there a simple relationship model to follow...

Can you use the example of what if a guest comes to your house, or is that off context?

#2 MarkForbes

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 04:49 PM

I'll respond on a general note.
Is "separation of church and state" actually constitutional?
Concerning what's biblical, I find in the bible that different functions are described like teachers, preachers, rulers, judges etc. They've got different authorities and purpose and are equivalent to institutions like church and state in die modern sense.

#3 rico

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 07:14 PM

I'll respond on a general note.
Is "separation of church and state" actually constitutional?
Concerning what's biblical, I find in the bible that different functions are described like teachers, preachers, rulers, judges etc. They've got different authorities and purpose and are equivalent to institutions like church and state in die modern sense.

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I found more info on another DVD of his, that has an 11 page PDF outline from the other DVD of his, America's Godly Heritage: http://www.skatewhat...Menu-Intro.html

.... Off context alittle
On the wallbuilders site they have corrections for some of David Burtons quotes, for the James Madison Quote that was misquoted I found the
Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments
http://religiousfree...n_m&r_1785.html

It definately acknowledges God as the lawgiver, if you've ever read the Mayflower Compact it mentions Christianity specifically...

Back on subject....

Thanks for the help Mark! I'll keep searching

I don't follow some of Burton's logic in the outline I found

The Bible was the foundation for establishment of government:
1. Isaih 33:22 - Three Branches of Government
2. Jeremiah 17:9 - Separation of Powers
3. Ezra 7:24: Tax Exemption for Churches
http://www.skatewhat...ine-11Pages.doc

Its late, good night all!

NOTE the AGH dvd is streamed on netflix, has misquotes, someone could make another thread for it?

#4 rico

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 12:32 PM

On the subject of whether Christianity being the official religion of the U.S. ....

I looked at my dates, sure they acknowledged God in 1785 with the Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, and the Mayflower Compact of 1620 (http://www.ushistory...s/mayflower.htm), but these were before 1787, when the U.S. constitution was signed. I found this article The Deception of The U.S. Constitution: http://ecclesia.org/...stitution.html).


"The Delaware constitution of 1776 established a Godly State by requiring, in Art. 22: Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust . . . shall . . . make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit: "I ________, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, Blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scripture of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration." Delaware Constitution, Art. 22 (adopted Sept. 20, 1776),

I was reminded of 2 John 1:7
from KJV:
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So, the U.S. originally had Godly intent but then it changed??... --Why doesn't the U.S. Constitution mention Jesus (rhetorical)? (Thinking ashamedly outloud)

Maybe David Burton invented some strawmen ?

#5 jason777

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 03:01 PM

Actually, the original law stated that no religious view against God shall be taught or accepted by the state. The scopes trial allowed evolution in the door as a competing hypothesis, but they have wrongfully assumed that it means God is not allowed.

Take this trial as an example:


A federal appeals court has ruled against a lawsuit to remove "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency, dismissing claims that the phrase was unconstitutional.

Carlos Kidd, an atheist from Texas, sued President Barack Obama and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke because he felt including God on national currency violated the separation of church and state. Kidd's claim called for the government to "destroy or recycle all circulating currency and replace it with new currency without religious inscription."

The lawsuit was dismissed in Oct. 2009 -- which Kidd appealed. But a three-judge panel of the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled July 21 to uphold the lower decision.

"[The court] has rightfully recognized that our Constitution does not require the exclusion of references to God from the laws governing this nation," Rep. Randy Forbes, R-Va., said in response to the ruling.



http://www.google.co...31tTSdw&cad=rja

#6 Phaedrus

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 05:11 PM

It's not well known but the expression 'wall of separation' Jefferson used in his letter to the Danbury Baptists was a theological expression.

"Builders, who, if they see a breach in a wall, instantly and carefully repair it: they are like gardeners who do not allow either a field or vineyard to be exposed to wild beasts. (John Calvin)

"The wall separating church and state was built upon the remains of an earlier wall, which separated the garden from the wilderness. This meta­phor of a wall separating the garden was applied in many ways but al­ways in a manner that suggested the purity of the church. Whether the wall represented the separation of the church from the world, the sepa­ration of the regenerate from the unregenerate, or the separation of par­ticular "gathered" churches from a national church, it consistently de­picted the church set apart from the taint of worldly things." (P. Hamburger, Separation of Church and State)

While the US has become a secular nation our foundations are clearly Christian. As long as the 1st Amendment is in effect religion will continue to flourish. Separation of Church and state was never meant to curtail the influence of religion but to protect it.

#7 rico

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 05:20 PM

Actually, the original law stated that no religious view against God shall be taught or accepted by the state. The scopes trial allowed evolution in the door as a competing hypothesis, but they have wrongfully assumed that it means God is not allowed.

Take this trial as an example:
http://www.google.co...31tTSdw&cad=rja

View Post

Thanks, Understood, secularism; wasn't widely known back then as it is today (based on quick research).

http://www.freerepub...s/1298911/posts

This quote is nice: http://findarticles....n29176020/pg_3/

Hopefully I can begin to see the Constitution Writer's view of Seperation of Church and State more clearly.

#8 jason

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 06:38 PM

Thanks,  Understood, secularism;  wasn't widely known back then as it is today (based on quick research).

http://www.freerepub...s/1298911/posts

This quote is nice: http://findarticles....n29176020/pg_3/

Hopefully I can begin to see the Constitution Writer's view of Seperation of Church and State more clearly.

View Post

the founders were known for stating this nation is founded on christianity but they wanted a neutral goverment, as they learned from the theocratic failures of the colonies. and the that brittania had no seperation of church and state. but that didnt mean the church and christians were to be treated as they are today.




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