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Is The Mormon Church Christian?


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#1 Fred Williams

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 09:41 AM

I started this from the 'Ezekial 37:15-17' thread that had obviously ventured away from the original OP. I hope Bickendan understands that I raise this topic with complete respect. The purpose of this forum is to seek truth and discuss topics that are obviously going to be offensive in some manner to both sides, that is just the nature of this type of debate. So I proceed with complete sincerity and respect, and I hope my words are taken with this intent in mind. Such topics should be considered very important by all, because every worldview has some version of our eternal destiny and consequences, but only one of these versions is likely the correct one.

I think it is no surprise that Bible-believing Christians do not accept Mormonism as part of Christian orthodoxy, and consider the Mormon writings outside of the Bible (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) to be man-made creation that are not divinely inspired. We believe Mormonism presents a false gospel, that we know from Galations is something Christians should rigorously guard against. The Apostle Paul did not mince words:

Gal 1:6-10 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Mormonism either contradicts or compromises most of the important tenets of Christianity. For example, Mormons believe:

1) Jesus is a literal son of God and his wife
2) Jesus was a polygamous male!
3) Jesus is one of three gods overseeing this planet. If you are a good Mormon, you’ll get to be god of your own planet someday!
4) Is the literal spirit brother of the devil!
5) Jesus’ death did not pay for everyone’s sins
6) You cannot be saved without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God (Mormons throughout history have claimed the Christian body was the church of Satan, but they have toned this down in recent years in their attempt to appear more mainline Christian)

There are of course more. So the question is, who is right? Which book can we trust, the Bible, or the Mormon writings? In the 'Ezekial 37:15-17' thread we already looked at one piece of historical evidence that offers a pretty solid falsification of one claim in the Book of Mormon (DNA evidence solidly refutes the claim that American Indians are a lost tribe of Israel). There are many other evidences we can consider, but for now I’ll try to limit it to just a handful for brevity’s sake:

1) Joseph Smith’s failed prophecies,
2) Conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith was a “glass looker” otherwise known as a con man, at the time he started the church.

The Bible is uncanny in its accuracy of prophecy (see my sister site www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm), but we have scores of failed prophecies by Joseph Smith. For example, in 1844 Smith predicted that his unborn son would be named David (easy to fulfill this part), and that he would eventually be “church president and king over Israel [One Nation Under Gods, Abrames, 2002, Apndx D, p 467 – this is the last of 30 failed prophecies listed in this book]. His son David never became president, and in fact spent the last 27 years of his life in an insane asylum.

For many years there was evidence that Joseph Smith was a con man, but nothing 100% conclusive. However, in 1971 in an old county jail in New York evidence was found that was the proverbial “smoking gun”, a court bill proving a prior transcript of a trial of Joseph Smith on disorderly conduct and con man charges. It was the final nail in the coffin, because it was irrefutable. Apparently some in the Mormon Church now admit Smith was a “glass looker” because of this overwhelming evidence (I haven’t researched how they explain their way out of this one), but note what one LDS leader said prior to finding this smoking gun:

"If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have [legitimately] organized the restored Church." - Francis Kirkham (One Nation Under Gods, p 46)

To close, my observation is this: The Bible teaches man is inherently flawed. What do wicked men crave? Money, power, and s@x. Almost all man-made religions satisfy this desire. Only the Bible talks of man’s depravity and desire to choose darkness over light. In my opinion, the Mormon church started by Smith is the most attractive religion ever created for the carnal mind! Smith was able to achieve all three, money, power, and s@x by allowing himself to choose any woman he wanted that was a member of the church. Brigham Young had 55 wives, including 6 who never received a divorce from their first husband! (http://www.utlm.org/...youngswives.htm). Yakov Smirnoff, a Russian comedian, is famous for saying about America “What a Country!”. I’m sure Brigham Young exclaimed when he first encountered Joseph Smith, “What a Religion!”

Fred Williams

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1

(For a detailed accont of Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church history and doctrines, I highly recommend the book “One Nation Under Gods”, Abrames, 2002. It is meticulously researched and documented. Some exerpts can be found here: http://anyboard.net/...hive/13173.html.)

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 07:07 PM

1st let me state that I don't mean to pile on here, and only want to add something for the cause of seeking the truth.

You cannot be saved without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God (Mormons throughout history have claimed the Christian body was the church of Satan, but they have toned this down in recent years in their attempt to appear more mainline Christian)


IMO, that alone is enough to falsify Mormanism. The apostle Paul stated:

1CO 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Yet, the Mormans then add Joseph Smith to the equation. Its clearly a false Gospel, and as Fred stated very well, that is a very serious issue that should not be set aside without a lot of serious consideration.

Terry

#3 Bickendan

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 12:37 AM

Part one of post:
Fred said:

I started this from the 'Ezekial 37:15-17' thread that had obviously ventured away from the original OP. I hope Bickendan understands that I raise this topic with complete respect.


It's a difficult subject to discuss because of how entrenched we can be in our thinking sometimes. So no disrespect was taken, if you were worried :rolleyes:

I think it is no surprise that Bible-believing Christians do not accept Mormonism as part of Christian orthodoxy, and consider the Mormon writings outside of the Bible (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) to be man-made creation that are not divinely inspired.



This is a common view, but I think people miss the fact that we are Christians for the most basic reason that we believe in Christ and follow his teachings as presented in the New Testament (and some noteworthy teachings, such as the Beattitudes, are presented again in 3 Nephi of the Book of Mormon). I'll elaborate more later.

Galations 1:6-10 quoted
Mormonism either contradicts or compromises most of the important tenets of Christianity. For example, Mormons believe:
1) Jesus is a literal son of God and his wife


Yes, we believe that (see Mark 1:9-11)-- and that each one of us is a literal child of God and his wife.

2) Jesus was a polygamous male!


No, we do not believe that. The accounts of the Gospels indicate that he was celibate, possibly why the Catholic clergy takes vows of celibacy (I'm not versed in Catholic doctrine, note).

3) Jesus is one of three gods overseeing this planet.


Christ was the God of the Old Testament, in our belief, acting for and in behalf of the Father (God). And the Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. We believe in the Holy Trinity, but they are one in purpose.

If you are a good Mormon, you’ll get to be god of your own planet someday!


Better than getting 72 virgins for killing infidels? :blink: Seriously, though-- this is indeed our belief; I'll touch more on this in a later post (it starts to get into the Creation/Evolution debate).

4) Is the literal spirit brother of the devil!


And we are the literal brothers and sisters of Christ, and of Lucifer. (Isaiah 14:12-14 for a brief mention of Lucifer's fall; more detailed accounts are found in the LDS scripture. I'll link if you'd like it)

5) Jesus’ death did not pay for everyone’s sins


His death didn't-- the Attonement occurred in Gethsename just prior to His arrest. The Attonement is what paid for each and everyone's sins. We simply have to repent for them now instead of serving the sentence the Lord would have us pay.


6) You cannot be saved without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God (Mormons throughout history have claimed the Christian body was the church of Satan, but they have toned this down in recent years in their attempt to appear more mainline Christian)


If you are a Latter-Day Saint or are a prospective LDS, accepting Joseph Smith is needed. If you are of another denomination or religion (and this is MY belief, not neccesirally representative of the church), you best live to the teachings of your church to the best of your ability in the most Christ-like way.
As far as the LDS view of the Christian Body as being the Church of Satan, it's a view of how Christianity has splintered into many denominations, squabbling with each other on who was the True Church, etc. I used to think it meant the Catholic Church, for example. But-- BUT-- each denomination, each RELIGION has a facet of the Truth. Mormons like to think that they have more of it. In the long run, I've always believed that we don't know for sure until the time comes and we pass on.

There are of course more.  So the question is, who is right? Which book can we trust, the Bible, or the Mormon writings?


Everyone's right, in their own way. I'm not saying that to dodge the question, mind. If you can lead a Christ-like life from the Bible alone, that's all you'll need. The Book of Mormon, whether you agree on it's truth on how it came about, contains very good principals on morality and living a Christ-like life; it doesn't contradict the Bible; it complements it.


Back to the point of the thread: Are Latter-Day Saints Christian?
Yes. We believe in Christ, we strive to live by his teachings, as presented by the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon. While it is through our own interpretation of Biblical scripture whether the Bible supports the Book of Mormon (I've heard the 'There can be no other Bible!' argument), the Book of Mormon supports the Bible, through quotations of Isaiah and as a whole is another account, another Testament of Christ.
The origins of the Book of Mormon aside, the archaelogical logistics of the BoM aside, it provides a very good standard of morality (ironically, I will say, running counter to what Joseph Smith is presented as by those outside the church).
We believe, no doubt you do as well, that Christ will return to Earth in the 2nd Coming. We believe he will personally reign. And I believe that he will ask each and every single person that has lived, lives and will live three questions:
Do you acknowledge me as the Christ, the Maker, Redeemer and Saviour of this world?
Have you lived a Christ-like life to the best of your ability and knowledge of what a Christ-like life is?
Have you repented of your sins?

That said, my question here is: Have you read the Book of Mormon? If so, what did you think (did you pray about it)?

I'll get back on some of the other topics I briefly touched on at a later time.

Bick

Admin3: Because forum program only allows 10 quotes per post, I broke this post up into two parts so the quote boxes would show up. The second part of this post is under my user name, but is Bickendan's post. I hope this makes his post more readable and understandable.


Currently, there is no fix, or setting change, for the ten quote per post limit. :(


#4 chance

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Posted 17 July 2005 - 03:10 PM

Bickendan Just a couple of points/questions.

2) Jesus was a polygamous male!
No, we do not believe that. The accounts of the Gospels indicate that he was celibate, possibly why the Catholic clergy takes vows of celibacy (I'm not versed in Catholic doctrine, note).


The Catholic church turned to celibacy to stem the tide of internal corruption that was rampant. Mini empires were being created by priests passing on their ‘jobs’ and wealth to their sons. The ‘old boy’ network literally :rolleyes:


If you are a good Mormon, you’ll get to be god of your own planet someday! Better than getting 72 virgins for killing infidels?  Seriously, though-- this is indeed our belief; I'll touch more on this in a later post (it starts to get into the Creation/Evolution debate).


Is this meant literally (I assume a populated planet like the earth) to be a lord over an earth? To what ends is this responsibility given?


6) You cannot be saved without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God (Mormons throughout history have claimed the Christian body was the church of Satan, but they have toned this down in recent years in their attempt to appear more mainline Christian)


One would have to ask why the lack of consistency then! IMO when one is critical of behaviour of others it invites retaliation (in one form or the other). Do unto others etc.

As far as the LDS view of the Christian Body as being the Church of Satan, it's a view of how Christianity has splintered into many denominations, squabbling with each other on who was the True Church, etc. I used to think it meant the Catholic Church, for example. But-- BUT-- each denomination, each RELIGION has a facet of the Truth. Mormons like to think that they have more of it. In the long run, I've always believed that we don't know for sure until the time comes and we pass on.


One would hope then that one should practice what we preach, if indeed the Mormon church has ‘more truth’ how is that to be demonstrated?

#5 Fred Williams

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 07:28 PM

Sorry about the quote tags problem you had. This happened a few times to ‘Deacon’ but we were never able to figure out what happened.

Yes, we believe that [Jesus is a literal son of God] (see Mark 1:9-11)-- and that each one of us is a literal child of God and his wife.


The official Mormon doctrine is that God the Father had S@xual relations with Mary to beget Jesus. This is well outside Christian orthodoxy. From what I have found, every LDS General Authority that has addressed the subject has consistently taught it. It has no basis in scripture. I suspect the modern Mormon church perhaps now rejects this?

Fred: 2) Jesus was a polygamous male!
No, we do not believe that. The accounts of the Gospels indicate that he was celibate…


This was widely taught by the LDS apostles. Is this yet another doctrine the modern Mormon church has revised their views on? Shouldn’t all these revisions cause warning bells to go off? The Bible has overwhelming textual integrity to support it, as we would expect if it came from God. A trait of all other religions is that they typically are revised through the years. They “evolve”, as you readily admit has happened with your church, but the God of the Bible does not change, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday , today, and forever.” (Heb 13:8). The New Testament is the same as it was 2000 years ago (you can recreate almost the entire New Testament just by using quotations of the early church fathers! (see my ‘Bible Transmission’ chapter. The Book of Mormon on the other hand, has almost 4000 changes since the first copy! (link)

Let’s get back to this apparent change in Mormon doctrine regarding Jesus being married, that apparently modern Mormon’s no longer believe:

LDS Apostle, Orson Hyde:
Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee...We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed [children] before he was crucified (Journal of Discourses, 2:82; emphasis added)

There was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that non less a person that Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha an the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it (Journal of Discourses, 4:259; emphasis added)

LDS Apostle, Jedediah Grant:
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons (Journal of Discourses, 1:346; emphasis added)


Fred: If you are a good Mormon, you’ll get to be god of your own planet someday!
Bick: Better than getting 72 virgins for killing infidels?  Seriously, though-- this is indeed our belief; I'll touch more on this in a later post (it starts to get into the Creation/Evolution debate).


Like I said, Mormonism is the most attractive religion to the carnal mind I have ever come across. It only makes sense Satan will try to lure people with such attractive platitudes. But I believe these lures are exactly that, lures! The problem is, they are unbiblical. That is why we need to watch for false prophets, and why I think it is very important to understand the character of the founder of the religion and his predecessors (we will kno wthem by their fruits, Matt 7:16). The number one goal of a con man is to make his pitch seem as attractive as possible.

This particular Mormon belief of becoming a god echoes remarkably similar to Satan’s lie from the very beginning:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Gen 3:5)

Fred: 4) Is the literal spirit brother of the devil!
Bick: And we are the literal brothers and sisters of Christ, and of Lucifer. (Isaiah 14:12-14 for a brief mention of Lucifer's fall; more detailed accounts are found in the LDS scripture.


What you should have said is “The Bible doesn’t support this belief, it is only found in LDS scripture”. :o

Note this verse from the Biblical passage you cited:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

I can see why Mormons believe Lucifer is their spirit brother, they share this common belief. B)

His death didn't [pay for sins]-- the Attonement occurred in Gethsename just prior to His arrest. The Attonement is what paid for each and everyone's sins. We simply have to repent for them now instead of serving the sentence the Lord would have us pay.


Mormons teach that you have to follow the law of obedience:

Eternal life, the kind of life enjoyed by eternal beings in the celestial kingdom, comes by grace plus obedience (Mormon Doctrine., 671; emphasis added). – LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie


This again is completely unbiblical. The Bible says:

Eph 2:7-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Fred: 6) You cannot be saved without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God (Mormons throughout history have claimed the Christian body was the church of Satan, but they have toned this down in recent years in their attempt to appear more mainline Christian)

B: If you are a Latter-Day Saint or are a prospective LDS, accepting Joseph Smith is needed. If you are of another denomination or religion (and this is MY belief, not neccesirally representative of the church), you best live to the teachings of your church to the best of your ability in the most Christ-like way.


Note what B Young said:

No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses,  7:289).


All of the above is very straightforward and is not mincing of words, and is precisely the type of false Gospel Paul warned us about in Galatians 1. Please note this additional warning from the Bible about trusting a mere man:

"Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.” Jer 17:5

Back to the point of the thread: Are Latter-Day Saints Christian?
Yes. We believe in Christ,


Believing in Christ does not make you a Christian, as the Book of James clearly points out (“even the demons believe”). The problem with Mormon doctrine is that they believe in a Jesus that is not the same Jesus of the Bible. Anyone can claim to be something, I can claim to be good at golf, but my mere statement does not make it true.

Bick: "While it is through our own interpretation of Biblical scripture whether the Bible supports the Book of Mormon (I've heard the 'There can be no other Bible!' argument), the Book of Mormon supports the Bible, through quotations of Isaiah and as a whole is another account, another Testament of Christ."

There are many places the Book of Mormon contradicts not only the Bible, but itself and other LDS scriptures! Just for a few examples, see http://www.evangelic...rg/mormons2.htm, and http://christiandefe..._earlyteach.htm. Also, note these warnings about adding to the completed scripture:

Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Prov 30:5-6

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:18-19

Bick: "That said, my question here is: Have you read the Book of Mormon? If so, what did you think (did you pray about it)?"

I have not read it in its entirety, mostly bits & pieces. Since the bits & pieces we discuss aren’t disputed by Mormons, it isn’t really necessary to read the whole book. There’s enough there to know it is not from God. My question to you is, did you pray after you read the Koran, or the revised “bible” of the Jehovah’s Witnesses? There are plenty of testimonies from Jehovah’s that they too received a “burning in the bosom”, yet surely you deny this is a valid religion?

Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to pray about things that are unbiblical, things that are against what is written in the Bible. This would be to “test” God, so I certainly will not pray to God after reading the Book of Mormon as to whether or not it is true, that would be a great sin (see Matt 4:7, Matt 22:18, etc). The Bible stands or falls on its own - the overwhelming evidence is that it “stands”. My faith is not based on some prayer to God, but instead on “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1). I don’t want to de-emphasize prayer, it is important in a Christian’s life, but God did not pen the Bible for us to rely solely on prayer. His invisible attributes are “clearly seen” (Romans 1), and if we seek Him he is easy to find (see Luke 11:9; I will note that the Holy Spirit has to draw us first). Even John the Baptist started having doubts while he was sitting in prison. What was Jesus’ response? It was not “ye of little faith”, or “go tell John to pray about it”. Instead, Jesus replied: “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me." Luke 7:22-23

In closing, my biggest concern regarding Mormonism is that perhaps it’s most powerful lure is the same one so many other religions have, one that sounds so convincing and reasonable – that being “good” gets you to heaven. IMO this is Satan’s number one lie (evolution is second :) ). The problem is in what “good” is. We know from the Bible that man is inherently flawed, that “there is none who does good, no, not one” (Psalms 14:3, Romans 3:12). Compared to God, we don’t even come close to “good”, and a Holy God could never allow us in His presence – without paying a price for us! If our comparative righteousness could be measured by a flag pole, no doubt many Mormons would be near the top. I know many Mormons that are very decent, family-oriented, and lead healthy, productive lives. It is on the surface a very admirable trait. However, God is as far as the Sun in His righteousness above our righteousness as measured by the hypothetical flag pole. The extent of how a Mormon differs from Jeffrey Dahmer is hardly registered in the grand scheme of things, since both the Mormon and Dahmer fall far short of the righteousness of God (BTW, I believe Dahmer was saved before he was murdered, and is actually in heaven now, a testimony to how grace saves the worst of sinners and the law condemns the least of sinners). What Mormons and other false religions fail to see in their sin, is particularly the damage they are doing spiritually. Mormonism and other false religions lead people away from the true God, where the spiritual consequences are eternal.

And He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come! "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.” Luke 17:1-3

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Matt 7:13-15


Sincerely,
Fred Williams

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 11:43 PM

I just figured out the problem with the quotes. You can't go beyond 10 quotes in one post. I don't know if there is a changable setting for it. But I work with that post for an hour. And when I deleted the quotes down to 10, the boxes showed up. And it did not matter what quotes were removed or left. Because I tried different ways just to make sure. So maybe it's a setting. But for now we just need to make note of that.

#7 Fred Williams

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:29 PM

I just figured out the problem with the quotes. You can't go beyond 10 quotes in one post. I don't know if there is a changable setting for it. But I work with that post for an hour. And when I deleted the quotes down to 10, the boxes showed up. And it did not matter what quotes were removed or left. Because I tried different ways just to make sure. So maybe it's a setting. But for now we just need to make note of that.

View Post


I noticed the same thing, just forgot to mention it after I figured out what was going on. That's why I started quoting Bick using "" toward the end. I searched the invisionize forum and a few other places, and only found one blurb where it was suggested this is hard-coded (ie no workaround). So for the time being, we'll have to just live with it.

Fred

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 02:24 PM

Part two of Bickendan's post:

In the 'Ezekial 37:15-17' thread we already looked at one piece of historical evidence that offers a pretty solid falsification of one claim in the Book of Mormon (DNA evidence solidly refutes the claim that American Indians are a lost tribe of Israel).


Without doing much research into this, I can't say much here B) But I will reaffirm my belief in it, considering that the BoM mentions a 'narrow neck of land' for a long while I thought to be Panama. That's rather far from North America :)

1) Joseph Smith’s failed prophecies,
2) Conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith was a “glass looker” otherwise known as a con man, at the time he started the church.

The Bible is uncanny in its accuracy of prophecy (see my sister site www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm), but we have scores of failed prophecies by Joseph Smith. For example, in 1844 Smith predicted that his unborn son would be named David (easy to fulfill this part), and that he would eventually be “church president and king over Israel One Nation Under Gods, Abrames, 2002, Apndx D, p 467 – this is the last of 30 failed prophecies listed in this book. His son David never became president, and in fact spent the last 27 years of his life in an insane asylum.


Joseph Smith was far from a perfect man. His importance to me is that he brought forth the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. What's more important to me is how the Church has evolved since. What it is now.

For many years there was evidence that Joseph Smith was a con man, but nothing 100%  conclusive.  However, in 1971 in an old county jail in New York evidence was found that was the proverbial “smoking gun”, a court bill proving a prior transcript of a trial of Joseph Smith on disorderly conduct and con man charges. It was the final nail in the coffin, because it was irrefutable. Apparently some in the Mormon Church now admit Smith was a “glass looker” because of this overwhelming evidence (I haven’t researched how they explain their way out of this one), but note what one LDS leader said prior to finding this smoking gun:

"If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record,  it would have been impossible for him to have "legitimately" organized the restored Church." - Francis Kirkham (One Nation Under Gods, p 46)


I've no comment (I'll need to do some research on this). It is interesting though :)

To close, my observation is this: The Bible teaches man is inherently flawed. What do wicked men crave? Money, power, and s@x. Almost all man-made religions satisfy this desire. Only the Bible talks of man’s depravity and desire to choose darkness over light. In my opinion, the Mormon church started by Smith is the most attractive religion ever created for the carnal mind! Smith was able to achieve all three, money, power, and s@x by allowing himself to choose any woman he wanted that was a member of the church.



I don't think he ever really achieved the money end.

Brigham Young had 55 wives, including 6 who never received a divorce from their first husband!



Ah, if only polygamy were still legal! :o (Polygamists are excommunicated now).

(For a detailed accont of Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church history and doctrines, I highly recommend the book “One Nation Under Gods”, Abrames, 2002. It is meticulously researched and documented. Some exerpts can be found here: http://anyboard.net/...hive/13173.html.)

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I'll look into it at some point.

Some things to keep in mind is the organization of the LDS church: It is a lay clergy (not paid), save for the Quorum of the 12 and the First Presidency, in which only living expenses are covered. The organization is pattered after Christ's church during His ministry-- 12 Apostles, and then under we have the geographic divisions of the church. I'm not familiar with any other Christian denomination that uses a similar organization.

#9 Bickendan

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 12:40 AM

I've not had time to get to replying to Fred and chance's posts; I will get to them as soon as I can. I've just been a bit busy with school, work and a concert recently :o

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 12:59 AM

No problem, you gave us time to figure out why these quote boxes did not work. Now we know why. You can only use ten per post.

#11 Geode

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 01:46 AM

I see bick disappeared long ago and that he nor any other Mormons stepped up to completely answer some of the questions raised. As I was brought up a Mormon and left them, perhaps this gives me a different vantage point than him or others who have posted.

Mormonism either contradicts or compromises most of the important tenets of Christianity. For example, Mormons believe:

1) Jesus is a literal son of God and his wife
2) Jesus was a polygamous male!
3) Jesus is one of three gods overseeing this planet. If you are a good Mormon, you’ll get to be god of your own planet someday!
4) Is the literal spirit brother of the devil!
5) Jesus’ death did not pay for everyone’s sins
6) You cannot be saved without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God (Mormons throughout history have claimed the Christian body was the church of Satan, but they have toned this down in recent years in their attempt to appear more mainline Christian)


The trouble with some items on the list is one of accepting the proclamations of all Mormon leaders as being official LDS doctrine. Some of these are not and never have been official Mormon doctrine. Often ideas that Brigham Young promoted are taken as universal Mormon beliefs when in fact some bought in, and others did not. The first item is in this category. As a Mormon I disagreed with Brigham's thoughts on that matter as the Bible is clear that he was wrong. I knew Mormons who thought as I did, and others who thought Brigham was correct. Mormons support Brigham as a latter-day prophet yet do not accept some of his religious ideas as correct, such as "Adam/God".....this is self-contradiction in some ways in terms of belief. No wonder it is confusing to non-Mormons. It is confusing to many Mormons.

Jesus as a polygamous married man has only been speculation by some in the Mormon ranks. I always thought the Bible was clear that Jesus was not married. Other Mormon scripture is consistent with his not being married.

The second part of the third item has essentially been taught by the Mormon church, but they seem to have been trying to back off on this one during the past 20 years. The Mormons teach of a Godhead that is made up of three separate personages. It is implied if not stated that they are three gods, but Mormons attempt to claim monotheism and so play the game with semantics. I never could believe in multiple gods and that was a sticking point with me as a Mormon.

Yes, the Mormons teach that all humanity share being the brother or sister of Jesus and Lucifer as spirit children in a pre-existence before the creation of the earth.

The Mormons very strongly teach that Christ did not take upon the sins of the world when on the cross, but that he had already done this in the Garden of Gethsemane. To them he sealed this by dying on the cross as a follow-through.

Brigham Young made a claim that Joseph Smith held the pass/ no pass to heaven but this is not official Mormon doctrine. However, it would be very difficult to call oneself a believing Mormon and not accept Smith as a true prophet. Some Mormons (most notably Brigham Young) have claimed that other Christian sects are influenced by satan, and until 1990 part of a temple ceremony showed a Protestant pastor being mislead by the devil. A Mormon apostle wrote a book about 50 years ago entitled Mormon Doctrine where he termed the Catholic church " the Great and Abominable Church but the rest of the Mormon leadership was appalled and forced this to be removed.

Then there are the canonized words of Joseph Smith himself:

Joseph Smith History:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?


But quite frankly Mormons are rather universalist in their concept of salvation, thinking all will be saved except for the third of the host of heaven that already sided with Lucifer, and a handful more of "sons of perdition" who have subsequently fallen. But this salvation may only result in gaining the lowest kingdom of a tiered heaven.

#12 Teejay

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 06:39 AM

I started this from the 'Ezekial 37:15-17' thread that had obviously ventured away from the original OP. I hope Bickendan understands that I raise this topic with complete respect. The purpose of this forum is to seek truth and discuss topics that are obviously going to be offensive in some manner to both sides, that is just the nature of this type of debate. So I proceed with complete sincerity and respect, and I hope my words are taken with this intent in mind. Such topics should be considered very important by all, because every worldview has some version of our  eternal destiny and consequences, but only one of these versions is likely the correct one.

I think it is no surprise that Bible-believing Christians do not accept Mormonism as part of Christian orthodoxy, and consider the Mormon writings outside of the Bible (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) to be man-made creation that are not divinely inspired.  We believe Mormonism presents a false gospel, that we know from Galations is something Christians should rigorously guard against. The Apostle Paul did not mince words:

Gal 1:6-10 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Mormonism either contradicts or compromises most of the important tenets of Christianity. For example, Mormons believe:

1) Jesus is a literal son of God and his wife
2) Jesus was a polygamous male!
3) Jesus is one of three gods overseeing this planet. If you are a good Mormon, you’ll get to be god of your own planet someday!
4) Is the literal spirit brother of the devil!
5) Jesus’ death did not pay for everyone’s sins
6) You cannot be saved without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God (Mormons throughout history have claimed the Christian body was the church of Satan, but they have toned this down in recent years in their attempt to appear more mainline Christian)

There are of course more.  So the question is, who is right? Which book can we trust, the Bible, or the Mormon writings? In the 'Ezekial 37:15-17' thread we already looked at one piece of historical evidence that offers a pretty solid falsification of one claim in the Book of Mormon (DNA evidence solidly refutes the claim that American Indians are a lost tribe of Israel). There are many other evidences we can consider, but for now I’ll try to limit it to just a handful for brevity’s sake:

1) Joseph Smith’s failed prophecies,
2) Conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith was a “glass looker” otherwise known as a con man, at the time he started the church.

The Bible is uncanny in its accuracy of prophecy (see my sister site www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm), but we have scores of failed prophecies by Joseph Smith. For example, in 1844 Smith predicted that his unborn son would be named David (easy to fulfill this part), and that he would eventually be “church president and king over Israel [One Nation Under Gods, Abrames, 2002, Apndx D, p 467 – this is the last of 30 failed prophecies listed in this book]. His son David never became president, and in fact spent the last 27 years of his life in an insane asylum.

For many years there was evidence that Joseph Smith was a con man, but nothing 100%  conclusive.  However, in 1971 in an old county jail in New York evidence was found that was the proverbial “smoking gun”, a court bill proving a prior transcript of a trial of Joseph Smith on disorderly conduct and con man charges. It was the final nail in the coffin, because it was irrefutable. Apparently some in the Mormon Church now admit Smith was a “glass looker” because of this overwhelming evidence (I haven’t researched how they explain their way out of this one), but note what one LDS leader said prior to finding this smoking gun:

"If any evidence had been in existence that Joseph Smith had used a seer stone for fraud and deception, and especially had he made this confession in a court of law as early as 1826, or four years before the Book of Mormon was printed, and this confession was in a court record, it would have been impossible for him to have [legitimately] organized the restored Church." - Francis Kirkham (One Nation Under Gods, p 46)

To close, my observation is this: The Bible teaches man is inherently flawed. What do wicked men crave? Money, power, and s@x. Almost all man-made religions satisfy this desire. Only the Bible talks of man’s depravity and desire to choose darkness over light. In my opinion, the Mormon church started by Smith is the most attractive religion ever created for the carnal mind! Smith was able to achieve all three, money, power, and s@x by allowing himself to choose any woman he wanted that was a member of the church. Brigham Young had 55 wives, including 6 who never received a divorce from their first husband!  (http://www.utlm.org/...youngswives.htm). Yakov Smirnoff, a Russian comedian, is famous for saying about America “What a Country!”. I’m sure Brigham Young exclaimed when he first encountered Joseph Smith, “What a Religion!”

Fred Williams

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1

(For a detailed accont of Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church history and doctrines, I highly recommend the book “One Nation Under Gods”, Abrames, 2002. It is meticulously researched and documented. Some exerpts can be found here: http://anyboard.net/...hive/13173.html.)

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Fred,

The same argument that can be used to falsify atheism can also be used to show that Mormonism can't be true. I've presented this to many Mormons, and I've yet to get one to even reply to it.

When witnessing to a Mormon, a Christian has one arm tied behind his back. The Mormon is taught that the Bible has been corrupted. So you can't use God's word. If you show that the Book of Mormon is false, they say it's true because they believe it. What's a good Christian to do? C.S. Lewis came to the Lord by examining evidence for the existence of God--evidence which showed that there is no existence without God. Below is an argument I presented to a Mormon.

Our God (Christian Jesus) became a man and died to save us. Let’s examine Mormonism: Rather than God becoming man, Mormon men become gods. The Mormon father god of this earth came from a Planet Kolob. This father god was birthed into the spirit world by a S@xual union of a mother goddess and a father god (who came from gods on another planet, who came from gods on another planet, and so on). The first spiritual children of this Mormon father god (who is flesh and bone) and mother goddess (who both lived on Planet Kolob) were Jesus Christ (first son) and Satan (second son). Satan and Jesus are spirit brothers. These spirit children are then injected into earth when humans have S@xual intercourse. There is no difference between any human and Jesus Christ, except one. Jesus Christ was birthed into the physical world by a literal physical S@xual union between this father god (who is flesh and bone) and his daughter Mary. But then the Mormons are confronted with a god who is married in heaven, but who commits adultery on his goddess wife and incest with his daughter Mary who is engaged to his son Joseph. The Mormons don't like to be confronted with this. They try to hide it and deny that it's doctrine. But a Google search will render about thirty pages of quotes from Mormon founders, leaders, apostles, teachers, presidents, theologians et.al. When asked if God can sin and remain sinless, they have a huge problem. When the Mormon Church teaches that Jesus is "the only begotten of the father," this is a phrase they mean quite literally.

Mormons teach that matter is eternal. The reason for this is that their gods are not eternal. Each god comes from within (not outside) the creation. Whereas the real Christian God lowered Himself, became a man, and entered His own creation to save us, a good Mormon attains godhood "as all other gods before him." So, their definition of eternal has to be eternity future, or from the moment they become gods! (Notice that the Mormon Jesus Christ bypassed the normal struggle that all Mormons endure to become gods. Mormons do not have an explanation for this.)

But I argue that the Mormon god could not even guarantee our existence let alone salvation. The argument below can be used to disarm an atheist as well. But while we can convince an atheist or a Mormon mentally with Reason and Logic, his heart can still remain hard. Pharaoh in Egypt knew in his mind that Moses' God was the true God, but the Pharaoh refused to humble himself and repent. If he had, God would have blessed Egypt instead of destroying it.

Now the argument I present to Mormons:

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, NOR JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of JESUS ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." Joseph Smith

"Has any [heathen] nation changed its gods, WHICH ARE NO GODS? But my people have changed their Glory [the real God] for what does not profit" (Jer. 2:11). What God is saying here is that the heathens are more loyal to nonexistent gods than Jews (and Christians) are to the true God of Israel. The Mormons are more loyal to Smith than they are to God. Does Smith sound like a man who worshipped and loved the Lord? I think not. I attached this quote to show the true character of the man to whom Mormons are entrusting their eternal souls and the souls of their families.

A Mormon to whom I witnessed wrote: "If we use your definition of eternal [past and future], then God cannot offer eternal life and God would then be in violation of a promise that He Himself made." I answered: “Yes, if he's a Mormon god.” But it gets worse! If we use the Mormon definition of "eternal” (future only), you, I, and the universe could not even exist. The universe could not have created itself from nothing. For if it did not exist, then there was nothing. Nothing can’t create something, nor can something come from nothing. The universe could not have always been here, because the Law of Entropy (Second Law of Thermodynamics) shows that the useable amount of energy in the universe is decreasing and the universe is going from order to disorder. This means that at one time, there was more energy and more order. Therefore it had a beginning. The logic argument would be:

a. Everything that has a beginning has a cause.
b. The universe had a beginning.
c. Therefore the universe had a Cause.

Now if it could not have created itself from nothing, and it could not have always been here, it had to have had a beginning. And if it had a beginning, then it had to have a Beginner. Some Power outside the material universe had to have created it from nothing because at one time, it did not exist. This Power had to have always existed, for this Power could not have created itself from nothing if it did not always exist.

Dare we call this Supernatural Power God? Perhaps the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? If we look at His creation--matter, animals, and humans, we can determine His attributes. For example, He is living, and He has to have always lived. He could not have come to be if He did not always exist. He is personal because we are persons and we are created in His image. He is relational--within the Godhead and with us. He is good, in that He has never been unjust or hurtful to us or within the Godhead. He is loving, for He sent His only begotten Son to die for us. This Son (Jesus Christ) did not ever cease to exist, for Scripture shows that He is the Creator God. He is not after creation; He is before creation. Remember: All Mormon gods attained godhood “as all other gods before us.” So, for the Mormon, finding the first man who became the first god, and then explaining how everything came to be is a conundrum of the first order.

The Mormon god can't guarantee existence let alone salvation. No Mormon god could have been before creation, for they all were born inside creation or this side of creation. This is why Mormons have to believe (against all well established science) that matter is eternal. Their gods are not eternal! And this may come as a shock to Mormons, but all humans and angels will exist eternally future. None will ever cease to exist. "Some will be raised to eternal glory and some to eternal damnation." God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have no beginning or end. And unless They existed eternity past, nothing could have existed, could now exist, or will exist in the future.

Any Mormon reading this knows that this is true. Now they must humble yourselves and accept the true Jesus into your hearts. The Mormon Jesus came to Be (in Smith’s imagination). The Mormon Jesus did not exist in the past, does not exist in the present, and will not exist in the future. Therefore, he is not God and can’t be the Savior

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#13 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 09:35 AM

We don't know what judgment anyone will have. God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. Jesus is the judge, not us.—Matthew 25:31-40

I think that there is a distinction between what is taught overall and whether the individual members are Christian. We are none of us perfect and all of us have growing to do, including Mormons, Catholics, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Perhaps that growth will lead to individuals changing their affiliation, but to imply that they are not Christian is just not right.

#14 ikester7579

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 02:54 PM

We don't know what judgment anyone will have. God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. Jesus is the judge, not us.—Matthew 25:31-40

I think that there is a distinction between what is taught overall and whether the individual members are Christian. We are none of us perfect and all of us have growing to do, including Mormons, Catholics, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Perhaps that growth will lead to individuals changing their affiliation, but to imply that they are not Christian is just not right.

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Actually the judgment is based on three things:

1) Our ability to understand or comprehend truth of God's word.
2) Our accessibility to it.
3) Our ability to allow ourselves to be corrected by God's word.

#1 covers those who maybe mentally challenged for one reason or another.
#2 covers those who may not have access to a Bible.
#3 Is more about those who think they already know truth, and therefore will refuse correction concerning God's word. Their denominational beliefs, their opinions, and pride can never allow them to become humble enough to ever admit they were wrong.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see it's the knowledge to do right, and the choice, while knowing right from wrong, that makes it a sin. If you did not truly know, how can you truly be condemned for all eternity for what you did not know of? In other words, the less you know about doing good the more leeway there will be. But, there won't be an excuse for willing ignorance either.

#1 If they cannot comprehend what doing good is, how can they be held responsible?
# 2 If they have no accessibility to learn right from wrong, how can they know or be held accountable?
#3 And if they have all these things (comprehension and accessibility) and reject them. Then there is no excuse.

You see the judgment is not going to be exactly the same for everyone. If it was, hardly anyone would make it into Heaven. Our judgment will be adjusted to our knowledge and our choices after receiving that knowledge (when we found out it was sin but did it anyway).

Example: Let's say a person is new in Christ (1 year saved). They end up in front of judgment because they died. Standing next to them is someone who has been saved for 30 years and has a lot of knowledge about good and evil. Yet the new in Christ does not. Would it be fair to judge them both by the same standard as the one with more knowledge will be judged for? Of course not. It would be like saying an young child should be held responsible like an adult would be for taking what was not theirs.

Even God's word recognizes those who are not as knowledgeable in the word:

1cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

#15 MamaElephant

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 10:47 AM

I agree Ikester. B)

#16 Geode

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 03:00 PM

Actually the judgment is best on three things:

1) Our ability to understand or comprehend truth of God's word.
2) Our accessibility to it.
3) Our ability to allow ourselves to be corrected by God's word.

#1 covers those who maybe mentally challenged for one reason or another.
#2 covers those who may not have access to a Bible.
#3 Is more about those who think they already know truth, and therefore will refuse correction concerning God's word. Their denominational beliefs, their opinions, and pride can never allow them to become humble enough to ever admit they were wrong.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see it's the knowledge to do right, and the choice, while knowing right from wrong, that makes it a sin. If you did not truly know, how can you truly be condemned for all eternity for what you did not know of? In other words, the less you know about doing good the more leeway there will be. But, there won't be an excuse for willing ignorance either.

#1 If they cannot comprehend what doing good is, how can they be held responsible?
# 2 If they have no accessibility to learn right from wrong, how can they know or be held accountable?
#3 And if they have all these things (comprehension and accessibility) and reject them. Then there is no excuse.

You see the judgment is not going to be exactly the same for everyone. If it was, hardly anyone would make it into Heaven. Our judgment will be adjusted to our knowledge and our choices after receiving that knowledge (when we found out it was sin but did it anyway).

Example: Let's say a person is new in Christ (1 year saved). They end up in front of judgment because they died. Standing next to them is someone who has been saved for 30 years and has a lot of knowledge about good and evil. Yet the new in Christ does not. Would it be fair to judge them both by the same standard as the one with more knowledge will be judged for? Of course not. It would be like saying an young child should be held responsible like an adult would be for taking what was not theirs.

Even God's word recognizes those who are not as knowledgeable in the word:

1cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

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I agree as well. This is a very well written post.

Another interesting thing is that it comes in a thread about Mormons. What you have set down here is basically the same as what Mormons believe on this subject as I remember their teachings.

#17 ikester7579

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 05:50 PM

I agree as well. This is a very well written post.

Another interesting thing is that it comes in a thread about Mormons. What you have set down here is basically the same as what Mormons believe on this subject as I remember their teachings.

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It took me a long time studying the osas (once saved always saved) vs no-osas (being able to lose salvation) controversy to figure this out. Because losing salvation has individual boundaries, and it cannot be the same for each person because of the verse about knowledge (you have to know it's sin before it is a sin). So if losing salvation is based on this knowledge, so is the judgment. Because one has to support the other in order to be fair and balanced for all involved.

Also, just because a particular doctrine has some things wrong does not mean all things are wrong. I cannot recall the exact verses, but I do remember the Bible saying that when we become knowledgeable enough in the word to self correct using the word. Then there is no excuse as to why we did not search it out and do so. Why? There are no perfect Christians, or denominations. Once the foundation of faith is laid, it is up to us to find more truth through God's word.

#18 Geode

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 03:45 AM

It took me a long time studying the osas (once saved always saved) vs no-osas (being able to lose salvation) controversy to figure this out. Because losing salvation has individual boundaries, and it cannot be the same for each person because of the verse about knowledge (you have to know it's sin before it is a sin). So if losing salvation is based on this knowledge, so is the judgment. Because one has to support the other in order to be fair and balanced for all involved.

Also, just because a particular doctrine has some things wrong does not mean all things are wrong. I cannot recall the exact verses, but I do remember the Bible saying that when we become knowledgeable enough in the word to self correct using the word. Then there is no excuse as to why we did not search it out and do so. Why? There are no perfect Christians, or denominations. Once the foundation of faith is laid, it is up to us to find more truth through God's word.

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Once again I agree with what you post. I have disagreed with "once save always saved" for as long as I can remember. This of course came part and parcel with Mormonism, since they believe one can stumble and fall. They draw lines based upon knowledge as well. But since leaving them I still think along the lines you have defined.

#19 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 05:36 PM

Also, just because a particular doctrine has some things wrong does not mean all things are wrong. I cannot recall the exact verses, but I do remember the Bible saying that when we become knowledgeable enough in the word to self correct using the word. Then there is no excuse as to why we did not search it out and do so. Why? There are no perfect Christians, or denominations. Once the foundation of faith is laid, it is up to us to find more truth through God's word.

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I would like to see more discussion on this if anyone wants to add something. B)

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#20 AFJ

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 05:39 PM

5) Jesus’ death did not pay for everyone’s sins
6) You cannot be saved without accepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God (Mormons throughout history have claimed the Christian body was the church of Satan, but they have toned this down in recent years in their attempt to appear more mainline Christian)


I believe these two greatly transgress the doctrine of Christ, because our salvation is exclusively in the blood of redemption (paying for sin and release from the debt of sin) that Christ afforded to all who believe.

No. 5 takes away from Christ's sacrifice--it paid for all sin. That is why it is unforgivable to reject Christ, and the salvation He affords--"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. He that believes not shall be condemned" (Mark the last chapter). No. 4 adds to salvation, that you must believe not only on Christ but on the writings of Joseph Smith.

All of these lines of thinking deny the blood covenant that God has instituted in his Son Jesus Christ--"the lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world" (John the Baptist--John 1)

The book of Mormon has an undertitle "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." The book of Hebrews clearly teaches that the shedding of blood must come with the installation of a covenant, so who's blood was shed for another testament??

Heb. 9:19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”e 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.



Hebrews teaches that a testament is a will for inheritance to the heirs. Remember that we are joints heirs with Christ Jesus. Romans 8:17

Heb 9:16 In the case of a will,d it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.


We inherit "all things that pertain to life and godliness" 2 Peter 1:3 and "every spiritual blessing" Ephesians 1:3 through Jesus Christ our Lord! But he had to die only once to give it to us. He doesn't suffer again and again--he died once to put away sin--there is no other testament after the covenant in his blood was accepted in heaven after his resurrection. Hebrews 9

24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 


That's why Jesus on the night before his crucifixion said:

24“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them. 25“I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.”


This indicates his blood would be shed, and would be sufficient to put away sin forever. Jesus will not appear to to initiate any other testament or covenant until he appears to install his literal kingdom in the age to come.

Hebrews 9:28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


Therefore anyone who says "another testament of Jesus Christ" has no understanding of what the covenant of Christ in the first place, and is transgressing the CENTRAL doctrine of Christ. This is not a dispute about end times, or once saved always saved--it is a transgression against the CROSS of Christ (the only means of salvation given to man) and the doctrine of Christ!

Whoever transgresses, and stays not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that stays in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9






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