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Cliché #1 - Thou Shalt Not Judge!


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#1 Fred Williams

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 04:01 PM

This is the first in a series of rock-the-boat topics regarding what I submit are non-Biblical Christian cliches that have crept into the church over the years.

It has been said that Hillary Clinton's favorite verse is “Thou shalt not judge!" In my experience over the years, I especially hear this often from liberals, it seems to be one of the few verses they know. Unfortunately, many conservative Christians don't help matters, either because they are not very familiar with the Bible, or they are well-versed but have this so engrained from the years of hearing this teaching that they don't dispute it.

In a nut-shell I believe the Bible teaches to judge, but not like a hypocrite. Consider Hillary's favorite verse: “Judge not, that you be not judged." (Matt 7:1-5). Here's the remaining part of the verse they won't cite: “And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." This concept of judging, but not like a hypocrite, is not a new concept, for example: “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house" (Zech 3:7).

Paul was upset with the Corinthian Christians because they let their worldly tendencies (liberalism) impede their ability to do what was right, which was to judge the immorality going on in their church! 1 Cor 6:2-3: Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

Jesus also told us to judge: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

Fred



#2 Ron

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 05:38 PM

This is the first in a series of rock-the-boat topics regarding what I submit are non-Biblical Christian cliché’s that have crept into the church over the years.

It has been said that Hillary Clinton’s favorite verse is “Thou shalt not judge!” In my experience over the years, I especially hear this often from liberals, it seems to be one of the few verses they know. Unfortunately, many conservative Christians don’t help matters, either because they are not very familiar with the Bible, or they are well-versed but have this so engrained from the years of hearing this teaching that they don't dispute it.

In a nut-shell I believe the Bible teaches to judge, but not like a hypocrite. Consider Hillary’s favorite verse: “Judge not, that you be not judged.” (Matt 7:1-5). Here’s the remaining part of the verse they won’t cite: “…And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?  … Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.” This concept of judging, but not like a hypocrite, is not a new concept, for example: “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house” (Zech 3:7).

Paul was upset with the Corinthian Christians because they let their worldly tendencies (liberalism) impede their ability to do what was right, which was to judge the immorality going on in their church! 1 Cor 6:2-3: Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

Jesus also told us to judge: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

Fred

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I have to say that I totally agree Fred.... And here I wanted to play the devil's advocate! :D

:)

#3 jason

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 04:33 AM

I have to say that I totally agree Fred.... And here I wanted to play the devil's advocate!  :D

:)

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sheesh,basic bible reading and prayer do wonders. it sad our church in the west is so weak and shallow. man if these things hit paul he would be on his knees in prayer and looking at the word for the answers to give.

#4 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 09:35 AM

This is the first in a series of rock-the-boat topics regarding what I submit are non-Biblical Christian cliché’s that have crept into the church over the years.

It has been said that Hillary Clinton’s favorite verse is “Thou shalt not judge!” In my experience over the years, I especially hear this often from liberals, it seems to be one of the few verses they know. Unfortunately, many conservative Christians don’t help matters, either because they are not very familiar with the Bible, or they are well-versed but have this so engrained from the years of hearing this teaching that they don't dispute it.

In a nut-shell I believe the Bible teaches to judge, but not like a hypocrite. Consider Hillary’s favorite verse: “Judge not, that you be not judged.” (Matt 7:1-5). Here’s the remaining part of the verse they won’t cite: “…And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?  … Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.” This concept of judging, but not like a hypocrite, is not a new concept, for example: “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house” (Zech 3:7).

Paul was upset with the Corinthian Christians because they let their worldly tendencies (liberalism) impede their ability to do what was right, which was to judge the immorality going on in their church! 1 Cor 6:2-3: Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

Jesus also told us to judge: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

Fred

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I agree with everything except throwing in the liberalism part, as if the republican party is not rife with "worldly tendencies". I'm neither a republican nor a democrat as I see both parties full of hypocrites and neither has YOUR best interests in their minds. All of them are rich people with their own agendas.

:D

#5 jason

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 09:57 AM

I agree with everything except throwing in the liberalism part,  as if the republican party is not rife with "worldly tendencies". I'm neither a republican nor a democrat as I see both parties full of hypocrites and neither has YOUR best interests in their minds. All of them are rich people with their own agendas.

:rolleyes:

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that is why i have gone independent. our constitutional republic has gone to crap. if i vote for a candidate he best be doing the majority wishes and not behind back doors.

#6 Teejay

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 06:07 PM

=Fred Williams,May 27 2011, 06:01 PM]
This is the first in a series of rock-the-boat topics regarding what I submit are non-Biblical Christian cliché’s that have crept into the church over the years.

It has been said that Hillary Clinton’s favorite verse is “Thou shalt not judge!” In my experience over the years, I especially hear this often from liberals, it seems to be one of the few verses they know. Unfortunately, many conservative Christians don’t help matters, either because they are not very familiar with the Bible, or they are well-versed but have this so engrained from the years of hearing this teaching that they don't dispute it.

In a nut-shell I believe the Bible teaches to judge, but not like a hypocrite. Consider Hillary’s favorite verse: “Judge not, that you be not judged.” (Matt 7:1-5). Here’s the remaining part of the verse they won’t cite: “…And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?  … Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.” This concept of judging, but not like a hypocrite, is not a new concept, for example: “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house” (Zech 3:7).

Paul was upset with the Corinthian Christians because they let their worldly tendencies (liberalism) impede their ability to do what was right, which was to judge the immorality going on in their church! 1 Cor 6:2-3: Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

Jesus also told us to judge: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

Fred

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Fred, If you say, "I'm not judgmental" you will get a standing O on Oprah. This is a litmus test. If we get a standing O on Oprah, then we need to reread and recheck Scripture to see if it supports our original belief. It's probably a false cliche. Now cliche's, once ingrained, take precedence over Scripture. An example is I was attending a local Baptist Church. The Bible teacher, who was a retired pastor, said we should not hate h*m*sexuals because God does not hate. And then he gave the favorite Christian cliche: "Love the sinner but hate the sin."

Privately, I gave him about three pages of Bible quotes where God hates. (God can't love unless He is also free to hate. If He did not have the ability to do otherwise, then His love has no meaning.) And I pointed out to him that his favorite Christian cliche he quotes is not in the Bible and is a quote from the Hindu Ghandi. I even showed him that God considers it hypocritical love to love those who hate the Lord:

“Should you love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.

I know I got a little off the subject here and I will get back to judging. But after we expose this false cliche' (don't judge), we should expose the rest of them as well.

Jesus cautioned His followers, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Mat. 7:15). How are we to rebuke false prophets, unless we judge? Paul judged a s*xually immoral man in the Corinthian Church and ordered him kicked out (1 Cor. 5:1-3). James wrote, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20). How are we to let a sinner know that he has wandered from the truth, unless we first judge? Paul judged and rebuked Peter to his face and openly before others (Gal. 2:11-14). Paul advised Timothy, “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear” (1 Tim. 5:20).

Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. . .” (Mat. 12:41). And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband’s fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance. He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34-35). God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).

But being Nonjudgmental and Self-righteous Feels So Good! Today, many believers are effectively saying, “Lord, thanks but no thanks. I’ll pass on that judgment duty. Besides, this self-righteous, nonjudgmental philosophy feels good!” But Paul responds, Start judging now, because you will need the practice (1 Cor. 6:2-5). Remember, “He who is spiritual judges all things. For. . . we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15-16). And God will reward those who judge, and do the hard work: “Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them” (Prov. 24:25).

Jesus admonished us to witness, rebuke, and forgive. It is not possible to witness, rebuke, and forgive, UNLESS we first judge.

TeeJay

#7 jason

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 06:20 PM

ok, lets shift this up a notch since i have a testimony of being healed of bisexuality. let me ask you all this. is this judgment? repent and be saved? or this God hath condemned thee already , God hates queers.

the later is often attributed to christians but often any solid christian wont say that one.

#8 Fred Williams

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 07:15 AM

Fred,  If you say, "I'm not judgmental" you will get a standing O on Oprah.  This is a litmus test.  If we get a standing O on Oprah, then we need to reread and recheck Scripture to see if it supports our original belief.  It's probably a false cliche.  Now cliche's, once ingrained, take precedence over Scripture.  An example is I was attending a local Baptist Church.  The Bible teacher, who was a retired pastor, said we should not hate h*m*sexuals because God does not hate.  And then he gave the favorite Christian cliche:  "Love the sinner but hate the sin."

Privately, I gave him about three pages of Bible quotes where God hates.  (God can't love unless He is also free to hate.  If He did not have the ability to do otherwise, then His love has no meaning.)  And I pointed out to him that his favorite Christian cliche he quotes is not in the Bible and is a quote from the Hindu Ghandi.  I even showed him that God considers it hypocritical love to love those who hate the Lord:

“Should you love those who hate the Lord?  Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2).  Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love.  A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.

I know I got a little off the subject here and I will get back to judging.  But after we expose this false cliche' (don't judge), we should expose the rest of them as well.

Jesus cautioned His followers, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Mat. 7:15).  How are we to rebuke false prophets, unless we judge?  Paul judged a sexually immoral man in the Corinthian Church and ordered him kicked out (1 Cor. 5:1-3).  James wrote, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20).  How are we to let a sinner know that he has wandered from the truth, unless we first judge?  Paul judged and rebuked Peter to his face and openly before others (Gal. 2:11-14).  Paul advised Timothy, “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear” (1 Tim. 5:20).

Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. . .” (Mat. 12:41).  And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband’s fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance.  He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34-35).  God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn.  This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).

But being Nonjudgmental and Self-righteous Feels So Good!  Today, many believers are effectively saying, “Lord, thanks but no thanks.  I’ll pass on that judgment duty.  Besides, this self-righteous, nonjudgmental philosophy feels good!”  But Paul responds, Start judging now, because you will need the practice (1 Cor. 6:2-5).  Remember, “He who is spiritual judges all things.  For. . . we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15-16).  And God will reward those who judge, and do the hard work:  “Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them” (Prov. 24:25).

Jesus admonished us to witness, rebuke, and forgive.  It is not possible to witness, rebuke, and forgive, UNLESS  we first judge.

TeeJay

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This is a great post, I couldn't agree more. As Pastor Bob Enyart quips, often times Christians are "nicer than God". They unwittingly stumble in to hypocrisy when accusing another of being judgmental, which itself is also judging! And for crying out loud you are stealing my thunder on one of the next clichés I was going to post "love the sinner, hate the sin". :rolleyes:

EDIT: Just posted Cliché #2 - Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin

Fred

#9 Fred Williams

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 07:19 AM

I agree with everything except throwing in the liberalism part,  as if the republican party is not rife with "worldly tendencies". I'm neither a republican nor a democrat as I see both parties full of hypocrites and neither has YOUR best interests in their minds. All of them are rich people with their own agendas.

:rolleyes:

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I agree, I'm certainly not a Republican, I'm a Bible-believing conservative. In fact I did not vote for McCain (he is a liberal), I actually voted for the black guy. That's right, Alan Keyes. :)

Fred

#10 Teejay

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 07:39 AM

=jason,May 28 2011, 08:20 PM]
ok, lets shift this up a notch since i have a testimony of being healed of bisexuality. let me ask you all this. is this judgment? repent and be saved? or this God hath condemned thee already , God hates queers.


Jason, I'm not sure if I understand your post? But you posted, "God hates queers." My understanding from Scripture is that God hates UNREPENTANT queers. Jesus responded with love to anyone who came to Him in humility with a repentant heart. But He harshly rebuked the self-righteous Pharisees.

I, God, and the angels in heaven rejoice over you, "the one sheep that was lost but now is found" and returned to the safety of the Sheppard. I do have a question for you. Why did you repent of this lifestyle? Did some Christian rebuke you? Did your conscience convict you (God wrote the law on our hearts)? Why do I ask this? There is a church near me that allows h*m*sexuals (with partners) to attend and are not rebuked by anyone. I rebuked the pastor and told him that he was offended by God's word. h*m*s*xuality is not only a sin, but it is a crime punishable by death (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16). Superficially, God's punishment may seem very harsh, but long term, it is more merciful. Just look at the millions who have died of AIDS and all manner of deseases because we have ignored God's wisdom.

I asked this pastor why should these people repent and accept Jesus Christ? And then I pointed out to him that Hollywood, our media, our legislators, our courts, and even our Christian leaders have convinced h*m*sexuals that they are most wonderful of creatures. They have no reason to repent.

Paul pointed out that the law is our teacher to convict us of our sins and to show us our need for a Savior. Without the concemnation of the law, we deem ourselves righteous because we have no condemnation. (While our conscience can convict us it can also become hard.) Also, it becomes more difficult for people to believe in a just God in heaven when they do not see justice here on earth. The law is a mirror that shows us our true idenity.

While we should welcome sinners into our pews, we should not let them languish Sunday after Sunday in their sin without being told the truth. Paul warned that "a little leaven leavens the whole loaf." Christian love should rebuke, warn, condemn, and point to our Savior Jesus Christ.

I pray that I have addressed this post to your satisfaction?

the later is often attributed to christians but often any solid christian wont say that one.

#11 Fred Williams

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 07:59 AM

ok, lets shift this up a notch since i have a testimony of being healed of bisexuality. let me ask you all this. is this judgment? repent and be saved? or this God hath condemned thee already , God hates queers.

the later is often attributed to christians but often any solid christian wont say that one.

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Good question jason. God has not condemned homosexuals any more than he has condemned murders or adulterers. According to Jesus, every straight guy reading this has already committed adultery in their heart (Matt 5:28), and if they deny this they are committing the sin of lying. However, as Teejay pointed out God will condemn the UNREPENTANT homosexual, murderer, adulterer, etc.

That guy in Kansas who holds up 'God hates queers" is a raving hypocrite. Why isn't he also holding up a sign that says, 'God hates adulterers'? Because it would expose himself as a hypocrite with a double-standard. Now if the guy held up a sign that said "God hates unrepentant sinners", then I would have little Biblical cause to challenge him.

Fred

#12 jason

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:20 AM

Good question jason. God has not condemned h*m*sexuals any more than he has condemned murders or adulterers. According to Jesus, every straight guy reading this has already committed adultery in their heart (Matt 5:28), and if they deny this they are committing the sin of lying. However, as Teejay pointed out God will condemn the UNREPENTANT H*mos*xual, murderer, adulterer, etc.

That guy in Kansas who holds up 'God hates queers" is a raving hypocrite. Why isn't he also holding up a sign that says, 'God hates adulterers'? Because it would expose himself as a hypocrite with a double-standard. Now if the guy held up a sign that said "God hates unrepentant sinners", then I would have little Biblical cause to challenge him.

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i was going to church and i always had lusts for men from time to time. oddly one day i met that one man who i decided to like and acted on that. my friend a muslim who was also a business partner, and well part of my testimony, had a bible believing mother who he told of my sin. she prayed and called me and had me read romans 1:26.

i repented. and when i did i let that nature go.if i may i can post what i expercienced and learned from my deliverance and what i believe set me up to that sin. P*rn had a lot to do with that but not all of it

#13 Fred Williams

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 01:45 PM

i was going to church and i always had lusts for men from time to time. oddly one day i met that one man who i decided to like and acted on that. my friend a muslim who was also a business partner, and well part of my testimony, had a bible believing mother who he told of my sin. she prayed and called me and had me read romans 1:26.

i repented. and when i did i let that nature go.if i may i can post what i expercienced and learned from my deliverance and what i believe set me up to that sin. P*rn had a lot to do with that but not all of it

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Jason, there is an excellent video of Bob Enyart bringing a homosexual to Christ during his TV broadcast. This homosexual said that it was Enyart's frank judgment, his showing him the law (Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;), that turned him toward Jesus. That is, it wasn't the "Jesus loves you" crowd, it was instead a frank message (law) followed by Jesus wants you to trust in Him (gospel). The video is available here, highly recommended:

http://www.kgovstore...et/Detail?no=57

Fred

#14 performedge

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:07 AM

This is the first in a series of rock-the-boat topics regarding what I submit are non-Biblical Christian cliché’s that have crept into the church over the years.

It has been said that Hillary Clinton’s favorite verse is “Thou shalt not judge!” In my experience over the years, I especially hear this often from liberals, it seems to be one of the few verses they know. Unfortunately, many conservative Christians don’t help matters, either because they are not very familiar with the Bible, or they are well-versed but have this so engrained from the years of hearing this teaching that they don't dispute it.

In a nut-shell I believe the Bible teaches to judge, but not like a hypocrite. Consider Hillary’s favorite verse: “Judge not, that you be not judged.” (Matt 7:1-5). Here’s the remaining part of the verse they won’t cite: “…And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?  … Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.” This concept of judging, but not like a hypocrite, is not a new concept, for example: “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house” (Zech 3:7).

Paul was upset with the Corinthian Christians because they let their worldly tendencies (liberalism) impede their ability to do what was right, which was to judge the immorality going on in their church! 1 Cor 6:2-3: Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

Jesus also told us to judge: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

Fred

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OK, I agree for the most part! Except, I wouldn't call this a "cliche". So let me ask you a question. Are you a hypocrite?
:lol:


Am I a hypocrite?
:lol:


Are there any hypocrites in the church?
:lol:

The question I had to deal with, because I judged plently, was how can I even see a speck when I cannot recognize the log in my own eyes. That's the question most Christians are missing when we deal with our brothers. Now does this mean we can't judge?

No No No!

We can judge with the warning that the judgement we meet out will be used on us. If we judge with condemnation of hell fire, then that will be meeted out to us. So a great deal of caution, love and mercy must be used in our judgements, because our God uses a great deal of love and mercy in His judgments.

If every "erring from the truth" becomes a salvation, hell fire judgment, then we are all doomed.

#15 performedge

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 04:23 PM

Fred,  If you say, "I'm not judgmental" you will get a standing O on Oprah.  This is a litmus test.  If we get a standing O on Oprah, then we need to reread and recheck Scripture to see if it supports our original belief.  It's probably a false cliche.  Now cliche's, once ingrained, take precedence over Scripture.  An example is I was attending a local Baptist Church.  The Bible teacher, who was a retired pastor, said we should not hate h*m*sexuals because God does not hate.  And then he gave the favorite Christian cliche:  "Love the sinner but hate the sin."

Privately, I gave him about three pages of Bible quotes where God hates.  (God can't love unless He is also free to hate.  If He did not have the ability to do otherwise, then His love has no meaning.)  And I pointed out to him that his favorite Christian cliche he quotes is not in the Bible and is a quote from the Hindu Ghandi.  I even showed him that God considers it hypocritical love to love those who hate the Lord:

“Should you love those who hate the Lord?  Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2).  Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love.  A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.

I know I got a little off the subject here and I will get back to judging.  But after we expose this false cliche' (don't judge), we should expose the rest of them as well.

Jesus cautioned His followers, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Mat. 7:15).  How are we to rebuke false prophets, unless we judge?  Paul judged a s*xually immoral man in the Corinthian Church and ordered him kicked out (1 Cor. 5:1-3).  James wrote, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20).  How are we to let a sinner know that he has wandered from the truth, unless we first judge?  Paul judged and rebuked Peter to his face and openly before others (Gal. 2:11-14).  Paul advised Timothy, “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear” (1 Tim. 5:20).

Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. . .” (Mat. 12:41).  And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband’s fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance.  He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34-35).  God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn.  This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).

But being Nonjudgmental and Self-righteous Feels So Good!  Today, many believers are effectively saying, “Lord, thanks but no thanks.  I’ll pass on that judgment duty.  Besides, this self-righteous, nonjudgmental philosophy feels good!”  But Paul responds, Start judging now, because you will need the practice (1 Cor. 6:2-5).  Remember, “He who is spiritual judges all things.  For. . . we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15-16).  And God will reward those who judge, and do the hard work:  “Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them” (Prov. 24:25).

Jesus admonished us to witness, rebuke, and forgive.  It is not possible to witness, rebuke, and forgive, UNLESS  we first judge.

TeeJay

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I think you first need to define and correctly apply the word "judge" to the context of it's use.

A judge in a courtroom has a certain ordained authority. The parrallel is God/Jesus.

The jurors also have a certain ordained authority. They must judge guilt. This is also called discernment. They do not have authority to place the sentence of condemnation, but they can recommend one. Only the judge has the authority to place the sentence. And only the judge can ajudicate the law.

When Jesus said "do not judge" it is clearly in the context of the judge placing sentence. Because He says:

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

We do not have the authority to judge in this manner. We are told not to. And we are warned if we do, then we will be judged the same. This is quite clear.

All of the verses and your argument for judging applies only to the sense of discernment. So I see alot of Christian equivocation here. When we make virtually any and everything in the scriptures a salvation issue for our brothers this is wrong, and we will be judged for it.

Think of it this way. As a Father and his two sons. One is near perfect. The other rebelious. During the years of youth the father judged his children with love and mercy and discipline. There was punishment, but never the threat of loss of sonship. When they reached the teenage years, one chose to leave and rebel and live like the devil. The other stayed home with the father. The father gave his son over, but he never gave his son away. One day the rebelious son came home. Now the rebelious son had squandered his dad's wealth and sinned countless times. But the father had no thought of him as anything but his son who needed forgiveness. He never threatened him with loss of sonship. But the faithful son didn't see his brother the same way. He was jealous, and wanted judgement on his brother. In fact, he probably never really wanted his brother back anyway. The brother disowned his own brother, but the father loved both and didn't disown either.

This is the way God judges. He wants us to do the same. The history of the church is full of corrupt judgements. And we are no better. Unless we stop judging our brothers, and we let God bring His judgements which are the only things that will bring us truely back to Him.

#16 Teejay

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 03:25 AM

=performedge,May 31 2011, 09:07 AM]
OK, I agree for the most part!  Except, I wouldn't call this a "cliche".  So let me ask you a question.  Are you a hypocrite?


I strongly disagree that this is not a cliche'. The dictionary defines a cliche' as something that becomes trite or common from overuse. "Don't judge" is so common that even Hollywood repeats it. A cliche' not only becomes common with overuse, but it is not necessarily true. "He's as strong as an ox." But is he really strong as an ox?

Am I a hypocrite? Jesus warned us not to be one. And He told HOW not to be one: "First get the log out of your own eye." Jason can rebuke and warn a H*mos*xual now that he has stopped being one himself. He has gotten the log out of his eye. But Jesus did not tell Jason to leave the speck in his brother's eye now that he has become clear-eyed.
:(

Are there any hypocrites in the church?


Yes!

The question I had to deal with, because I judged plently, was how can I even see a speck when I cannot recognize the log in my own eyes.  That's the question most Christians are missing when we deal with our brothers.  Now does this mean we can't judge? 

No No No!


Correct.

We can judge with the warning that the judgement we meet out will be used on us.


Judgment will be used against us only if we are hypocrites. Jesus called the Pharisees "hypocrites." Why? They were committing the same sin that they were judging others of being guilty of. If we have gotten the log out of our eye, then God will not judge us guilty of having a log in our eye.

If we judge with condemnation of hell fire, then that will be meeted out to us.  So a great deal of caution, love and mercy must be used in our judgements, because our God uses a great deal of love and mercy in His judgments.


This sounds good, but it is not Biblical. Condemnation and hell fire will be meeted out to us ONLY IF WE ARE GUILTY OF SOME SIN. God will not condemn us for judging the unrepentant harshly. If you are an earthly judge in a court for example, God does not allow you to show mercy (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31). You can only forgive a sin committed against you. You have no standing to forgive a sin committed against another. Only the victim of the sin has standing to forgive.

And, yes, God does show mercy (the woman caught in adultery for example). And God showed mercy to King David. King David and the woman caught in adultery should have been put to death, for they both committed death penalty crimes. Now while God can forgive someone these crimes, He has not delegated this authority to us. We do not have authority to show mercy to the guilty. And we can only show mercy and forgive someone who has sinned against us when they repent and ask for our forgiveness.

If someone murdered my sister, only my sister and God can forgive him. If he asks for my forgiveness, I can only forgive him the hurt that he caused me. I can't forgive him for my sister. Only she and God can do that. And even through I can forgive him for my hurt, he should still be put to death. Earthly judges judge the flesh. God judges the heart.

If every "erring from the truth" becomes a salvation, hell fire judgment, then we are all doomed.

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No we are not all doomed. When Jesus died on the Cross, He nailed the law to the Cross. Where there is no law, there is no condemnation. We have been delivered from the law. The law is not of faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law. We can't be condemned by that which we have been delivered from (the law). We "err from the truth" when we teach anything that does not agree with God's word. Cliche's do that. "I must be merciful to a muerderer, a rapist, a kidnapper, a false witness in a capital crime, an adulterer, etc. because God is merciful" is "erring from the truth." When something is repeated long enough and often enough, it becomes a cliche' which sounds so good but is not true. Today, the vast majority of earthly judges in our courts are totally unaware that God has not granted authority to them to show mercy. They pride themselves on being merciful, they falsely believe that they are imitating God, and are oozing self-righteousness from their pores.

TeeJay

#17 performedge

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 06:50 AM

I strongly disagree that this is not a cliche'.  The dictionary defines a cliche' as something that becomes trite or common from overuse.  "Don't judge" is so common that even Hollywood repeats it.  A cliche' not only becomes common with overuse, but it is not necessarily true.  "He's as strong as an ox."  But is he really strong as an ox?

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I understand that it meets the definition. What I meant was that is is indeed scriptural, and it is a commandment of our Lord. I see no other contrary commandment allowing us to judge. You seem to think, as most do, that you are allowed. What I see is rebukes and warnings against this.

Am I a hypocrite?  Jesus warned us not to be one.  And He told HOW not to be one:  "First get the log out of your own eye."  Jason can rebuke and warn a H*mos*xual now that he has stopped being one himself.  He has gotten the log out of his eye.  But Jesus did not tell Jason to leave the speck in his brother's eye now that he has become clear-eyed.
 :blink:


I notice you didn't answer the question. I won't directly address Jason, but I will you. Apparently Jesus' analogy of log verses speck is difficult for your understanding. It was for me also. Most people like yourself read this as "First get the speck out of your own eye." Then you won't be a hypocrite!. But that is not what it says. Is it? It is a comparrison of a gazillion specks to one speck. Since you don't have any hypocricy in the area of h*m*s*xuality, you apparently feel quite unhypocritical to judge with hellish sentences all those brothers who may lean towards this sin. And Jesus will judge you with those same hellish sentences. You fail to recognize the grace that is covering those other gazillion minus one sins in your life while addressing the one in anothers life.

Now does this mean we can't address any sin? Of course not!. It means we address it with grace and not condemnation. Any one sin does not send us to hell. Lack of grace (the gift) sends us to hell. Hell is already the judgment for all of us, because we are but filthy rags without Christ. But if we have His gift, then we have life. Once we have the gift, we are brothers. But some brothers have sinful tendencies that other brothers do not. One of those sinful tendencies is to destroy our brothers.

Let me give an example. I know homosexulaity has been mentioned. It's always the BIG sins isn't it. I knew a wonderful Christian elder once, who's common cliche' was "Oh my Lord!" He said it all the time. He is just as guilty as any H*mos*xual brother. Yet no one jumped his hide with hellish condemnation. Why?, because his sin was closer to our own sins. Do you see the hypocricies we have?

Judgment will be used against us only if we are hypocrites. 


BINGO! You've got it. Or do you? It's always the other guy who is the hypocrite. Those damned Pharisees!

I can imagine Jesus wanting to say to you, now "Go to the chalk board and write the above sentence 1000 times." And "each time you write it, go look in the mirror. "

I am saved but by the grace of God. So are you. So are all of our brothers. They (and we) still sin. Those sins and ours still need to be addressed and repented from. But we can do all that addressing and admonishing without condemnation of hell. Can't we?

Condemnation of hell only comes when we reject the gift. When we don't want it any longer. And we are quite happy returning to our vomit. So in the end, we get what we basically had since our first sin

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?



This sounds good, but it is not Biblical.  Condemnation and hell fire will be meeted out to us ONLY IF WE ARE GUILTY OF SOME SIN.



OK. So who is not guilty. Hypocrites, all of us!

But wait! My guilt is covered by the blood of Jesus. I wonder if my brothers sin is also!? I will pray and work hard for Jesus to grow out of my own sins. Maybe I can help my brother to do the same.

Or, I can falsely believe that my brother is worthy of hell fire condemnation. Burden him with that. Hypocritically ignore my gazillion specks, because I am saved by grace. All the while, I am promoting a works salvation for my brother.



And, yes, God does show mercy (the woman caught in adultery for example).  And God showed mercy to King David.  King David and the woman caught in adultery should have been put to death, for they both committed death penalty crimes.  Now while God can forgive someone these crimes, He has not delegated this authority to us.  We do not have authority to show mercy to the guilty.  And we can only show mercy and forgive someone who has sinned against us when they repent and ask for our forgiveness.


So we do not have authority to show mercy, but we do have authority to judge our brothers. Oh my!

No we are not all doomed.  When Jesus died on the Cross, He nailed the law to the Cross.  Where there is no law, there is no condemnation.  We have been delivered from the law.  The law is not of faith.  Without faith, it is impossible to please God.  The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law.  We can't be condemned by that which we have been delivered from (the law).


If there is no condemnation, then why are you condemning your brother?

We "err from the truth" when we teach anything that does not agree with God's word. 


Well I can honestly admit, that I have never erred from the truth. But I can see that you have. You're going to hell if you don't repent, and see it my way.

Said with complete sarcasm. I pray that you can see the hypocricy in your statements.

#18 jason

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 02:58 PM

I understand that it meets the definition.  What I meant was that is is indeed scriptural, and it is a commandment of our Lord.  I see no other contrary commandment allowing us to judge.  You seem to think, as most do, that you are allowed.  What I see is rebukes and warnings against this.

Am I a hypocrite?  Jesus warned us not to be one.  And He told HOW not to be one:  "First get the log out of your own eye."  Jason can rebuke and warn a H*mos*xual now that he has stopped being one himself.  He has gotten the log out of his eye.  But Jesus did not tell Jason to leave the speck in his brother's eye now that he has become clear-eyed.
 :blink:
 

I notice you didn't answer the question.  I won't directly address Jason, but I will you.  Apparently Jesus' analogy of log verses speck is difficult for your understanding.  It was for me also.  Most people like yourself read this as "First get the speck out of your own eye."  Then you won't be a hypocrite!.  But that is not what it says.  Is it?  It is a comparrison of a gazillion specks to one speck.  Since you don't have any hypocricy in the area of h*m*s*xuality, you apparently feel quite unhypocritical to judge with hellish sentences all those brothers who may lean towards this sin.  And Jesus will judge you with those same hellish sentences.  You fail to recognize the grace that is covering those other gazillion minus one sins in your life while addressing the one in anothers life.

Now does this mean we can't address any sin?  Of course not!.  It means we address it with grace and not condemnation.  Any one sin does not send us to hell.  Lack of grace (the gift) sends us to hell.  Hell is already the judgment for all of us, because we are but filthy rags without Christ.  But if we have His gift, then we have life.  Once we have the gift, we are brothers.  But some brothers have sinful tendencies that other brothers do not.  One of those sinful tendencies is to destroy our brothers.

Let me give an example.  I know homosexulaity has been mentioned.  It's always the BIG sins isn't it.  I knew a wonderful Christian elder once, who's common cliche' was "Oh my Lord!"  He said it all the time.  He is just as guilty as any H*mos*xual brother.  Yet no one jumped his hide with hellish condemnation.  Why?, because his sin was closer to our own sins.  Do you see the hypocricies we have?
BINGO!  You've got it.  Or do you?  It's always the other guy who is the hypocrite.  Those damned Pharisees!

I can imagine Jesus wanting to say to you, now "Go to the chalk board and write the above sentence 1000 times."  And "each time you write it, go look in the mirror. "

I am saved but by the grace of God.  So are you.  So are all of our brothers.  They (and we) still sin.  Those sins and ours still need to be addressed and repented from.  But we can do all that addressing and admonishing without condemnation of hell.  Can't we?

Condemnation of hell only comes when we reject the gift.  When we don't want it any longer.  And we are quite happy returning to our vomit.  So in the end, we get what we basically had since our first sin

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
OK.  So who is not guilty.  Hypocrites, all of us!

But wait!  My guilt is covered by the blood of Jesus.  I wonder if my brothers sin is also!?  I will pray and work hard for Jesus to grow out of my own sins.  Maybe I can help my brother to do the same. 

Or, I can falsely believe that my brother is worthy of hell fire condemnation.  Burden him with that.  Hypocritically ignore my gazillion specks, because I am saved by grace.  All the while, I am promoting a works salvation for my brother.
So we do not have authority to show mercy, but we do have authority to judge our brothers.  Oh my!
If there is no condemnation, then why are you condemning your brother?
Well I can honestly admit, that I have never erred from the truth.  But I can see that you have.  You're going to hell if you don't repent, and see it my way.

Said with complete sarcasm.  I pray that you can see the hypocricy in your statements.

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thank you my brother i can whole heartedely agree. i am unworthly to judge at present because i am not perfected. we judge so hyprocritcally as we cant know the hearts of men. only what appears on the outside.

often what offends me in others turns out to be in me as well. so if i am that blind whom am i to tell the repent or else i judge thee to hell?

#19 Teejay

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 07:19 PM

=performedge,Jun 1 2011, 08:50 AM]
I understand that it meets the definition.  What I meant was that is is indeed scriptural, and it is a commandment of our Lord.  I see no other contrary commandment allowing us to judge.  You seem to think, as most do, that you are allowed.  What I see is rebukes and warnings against this.


Jesus Christ taught “judge not that you be not judged” (Mat. 7:1). But then Jesus Christ commanded men not to “judge according to appearance,” but to “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24). And He complimented Peter for judging rightly (Luke 7:43). To add to the confusion, the Apostle Paul rebuked the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to “judge the smallest matters” (1 Cor. 6:2). Paul further wrote, “He who is spiritual judges all things” for “we [Christians] have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15-16). And Paul revealed that God will delegate to his saints authority to judge the world and angels.
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Jesus Christ instructed us to rebuke our brother if he sins against us. But before we can rebuke, we must first judge him sinful; and then to forgive him, we must judge him again to be truly repentant. If he sins against us seven times in one day and repents seven times in one day, then we are to judge him a sinner and judge him truly repentant seven times in one day. So, how can we obey our Lord’s command to “judge not” and judge your brother a sinner and rebuke him and judge him repentant to forgive him? Read on.
Logic tells us that before we can present the gospel of grace, we must first judge someone to be unsaved and judge him to be a sinner. After we judge someone to be unsaved and witness to him, we must further judge him to be truly repentant and we must judge him to be truly saved. Jesus Christ instructed, “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet” (Mat. 10:14). This sounds very judgmental, and would not get much applause on Oprah. But unless we judge, we cannot rebuke, forgive, or witness
The Speck in Your Brother’s Eye
Let’s reflect a bit. How many times have we heard Christians espouse: “Judge not that you be not judged”? (Even unbelievers have this verse memorized.) Jesus further said, “Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?” (Mat. 7:1 & 3)? Let’s quote all of what Jesus said:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or, how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” Mat. 7:1-5
Here, Jesus is not telling us to refrain from judging. He’s telling us how to judge. Jesus Christ did not want us to leave our brother with the speck in his eye, or the plank. But, He did not want us judging others for sin while we are just as guilty or guiltier. We know that the Pharisees plotted to trap Jesus when they brought the woman caught in adultery. But none of her accusers was worthy to judge her. Jesus made this clear: “He who is free from sin, cast the first stone.” Jesus did not say that this woman, who was guilty of adultery, should not be judged. Under the Law, she should have been judged guilty and executed (along with her lover). But these Pharisees were not interested in Godly justice. Their motive was to trap Jesus Christ, for the Roman authorities had taken away Israel’s authority to execute. God did not grant authority to human government to show mercy or commute the death penalty (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31). But, Jesus Christ, as God, has this authority, and He condemned the self-righteous Pharisees and forgave the repentant woman and commuted her death penalty. This single act by Jesus did not negate the death penalty. Today, we should still judge and execute those who violate God’s death penalty laws.
Hypocrisy
A half-quoted verse from God’s word has paralyzed the Body of Christ. God warns against “hypocrisy” commanding men to “abhor evil” (Rom. 12:9). Yet to abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. Thus, unable to judge, large numbers of Christians become hypocrites by obeying the Hypocrites Golden Rule. Since the hypocrite doesn’t want to be judged, he judges not, for as Jesus said, “Judge not… you hypocrite” (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52). For “judge not” (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrite’s application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged” (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you—inverted—is if you promise not to judge me, I promise not to judge you.
Christ kept repeating this theme in His ministry. “Hypocrites,” Jesus said, “why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?” (Luke 12:56-57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord’s harsh rebuke: “Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to [judge, i.e., to] remove the speck from your brother’s eye” (Mat. 7:5). “Judge Not” is the Hypocritical Oath (which will get you a standing O on Oprah by the way.
To the Jews God said, “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house” (Zech 3:7). Are members of the Body of Christ today less capable than Israel whom God commanded to “judge righteously” (Deut. 1:16-17; Lev. 19:15)? Moses appointed the head of one out of every ten households as a judge (Ex. 18:25; Deut. 1:15). Should Christians toss out the entire book of Judges? Should America eliminate all judges, or should just the Christian judges resign? Should believers ignore Paul’s admonition:
“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that you shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?” (1 Cor. 6:2-5).
Notice that Christians “will judge the world!” (1 Cor. 6:2). For Paul said, “If the world will be judged by you. . .” God, the Great High Judge, delegates judgment to His people. Even spirit beings will submit to believers: “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” Then and now, believers should “ judge. . . according to My judgments” (Ezek. 44:24) as God said. The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4).
Jesus cautioned His followers, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Mat. 7:15). How are we to rebuke false prophets, unless we judge? Paul judged a s*xually immoral man in the Corinthian Church and ordered him kicked out (1 Cor. 5:1-3). James wrote, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20). How are we to let a sinner know that he has wandered from the truth, unless we first judge? Paul judged and rebuked Peter to his face and openly before others (Gal. 2:11-14). Paul advised Timothy, “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear” (1 Tim. 5:20).
Sins of Some Follow Later
If God were the only Judge, the sins of all men would be “clearly evident, preceding them to judgment” (1 Tim. 5:24a). But because human beings will judge their fellow men on Judgment Day, therefore the sins “of some men follow later” (1 Tim. 5:24b). The human judges will already have been aware of the sins of notorious men. But they will not learn of the sins of obscure men until they are revealed at Judgment Day. Also, these human judges will then become aware of the sins of leaders, celebrities, and even family members who had carefully concealed their wickedness.
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, may have known of this. For he said, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all” (Jude 14:15). The Lord, with His saints, will judge the world!
Even Nineveh Will Judge
Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. . .” (Mat. 12:41). And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband’s fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance. He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34-35). God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).
How Long O Lord?
Will the slain students in a school shooting be forgiving or judgmental toward their unrepentant murderer? “How long O Lord before You avenge our blood?” (Rev. 6:10). Nicer-than-God, nonjudgmental Christians are quick to judge the martyrs who cry for vengeance while forgiving the murderer.
Hopefully the Body of Christ will see the Judge not cliché die in the near future before more Christian soldiers are taken out of the battle. And hopefully it will be replaced with, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

I notice you didn't answer the question.  I won't directly address Jason, but I will you.  Apparently Jesus' analogy of log verses speck is difficult for your understanding.  It was for me also.  Most people like yourself read this as "First get the speck out of your own eye."  Then you won't be a hypocrite!.  But that is not what it says.  Is it?  It is a comparrison of a gazillion specks to one speck.  Since you don't have any hypocricy in the area of h*m*s*xuality, you apparently feel quite unhypocritical to judge with hellish sentences all those brothers who may lean towards this sin.  And Jesus will judge you with those same hellish sentences.  You fail to recognize the grace that is covering those other gazillion minus one sins in your life while addressing the one in anothers life.


If I were to tell you that I have no hypocrisy in my life, I would be lying. But my moral condition does not negate what Jesus Christ taught. Do you agree that man’s moral condition does not negate Jesus’ command to get the speck out of your brother’s eye? Did Jesus Christ command us to first get the log out of our own eye first?
In our discussion, you are having great difficulty accepting a single speck. Let’s not introduce a “gazillion specks.” Can you give me some Biblical support for your interpretation of a gazillion specks—from theologians, other Scriptural verses, etc. If not, will you admit that this is simply arbitrary with no Biblical foundation to support it?
If I judge with righteous judgment and I do not have a log in my own eye, can you quote me a verse that says Jesus will judge me with the “same hellish sentences”?

Now does this mean we can't address any sin?  Of course not!.  It means we address it with grace and not condemnation.  Any one sin does not send us to hell.  Lack of grace (the gift) sends us to hell.  Hell is already the judgment for all of us, because we are but filthy rags without Christ.  But if we have His gift, then we have life.  Once we have the gift, we are brothers.  But some brothers have sinful tendencies that other brothers do not.  One of those sinful tendencies is to destroy our brothers.


How can a man repent of his sin unless, and this is a big unless, he is first convicted of his sin. Before grace can be given, the law comes first. There are two purposes of the law: To deter men from committing crimes and to convict and show the need for a Savior. First, we show that he is guilty under the law. Then we break the good news to him that he is saved by grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Without the condemnation of the law, he has no reason to repent. Recall that Jesus said that the first thing we must do is ‘REPENT” for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. But you argue that we must tell him he is saved before we tell him what he is being saved from.

There is no quicker way to destroy a brother than with false Bible teaching.


Let me give an example.  I know homosexulaity has been mentioned.  It's always the BIG sins isn't it.  I knew a wonderful Christian elder once, who's common cliche' was "Oh my Lord!"  He said it all the time.  He is just as guilty as any H*mos*xual brother.  Yet no one jumped his hide with hellish condemnation.  Why?, because his sin was closer to our own sins.  Do you see the hypocricies we have?
BINGO!  You've got it.  Or do you?  It's always the other guy who is the hypocrite.  Those damned Pharisees!


Yes! It is a big sin, at least according to God. God commands that h*m*sexuals be put to death (Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13. God destroyed two cities because of this sin. h*m*s*xuality drains the cup of iniquity to its dregs. Paul warns that no unrepentant H*mos*xual will be saved. Just look at the millions and millions of people who have died of AIDS and other diseases caused by this filthy lifestyle.

Now I notice that you argue that the Christian elder who utters “Oh my Lord!” is “just as guilty as any H*mos*xual brother.” Yikes! After this post, Fred will post Cliché’ 4, “All Sins Are Equal.” Have you searched Scripture to see if your statement is true?

This Christian elder had a small speck in his eye. And Paul would accuse your church with: “Is there not one member in your church who can judge this small matter? Do you not know that you will judge angels? If you can’t judge this small matter, how can God grant you authority to judge the world and angels?”

I can imagine Jesus wanting to say to you, now "Go to the chalk board and write the above sentence 1000 times."  And "each time you write it, go look in the mirror. "


But He did not say this. He said, “Judge with righteous judgment.” And for your blackboard scenario to be true, all of the Bible quotes that I posted above would have to be false.

I am saved but by the grace of God.  So are you.  So are all of our brothers.  They (and we) still sin.  Those sins and ours still need to be addressed and repented from.  But we can do all that addressing and admonishing without condemnation of hell.  Can't we?


No! We can’t. If you take the condemnation of the law out of the picture, then we do not have the knowledge of good and evil and we are not under the law and are not condemned.. Where there is no law there is no condemnation. If you tell an unsaved person that he is saved by Grace, he can simply ask, “Saved from what.” There is only one reason to accept Jesus Christ. You should accept Him because you are a sinner. If you come to Jesus for any other reason, then you are not saved. Question for you (I would like an answer): How can you convince a man that he is a hopelessly lost sinner who needs a Savior if you do not use the law? Paul wrote, “The Law is our tutor to bring us to Christ.” I think you need to rethink your position on this.

Condemnation of hell only comes when we reject the gift.  When we don't want it any longer.  And we are quite happy returning to our vomit.  So in the end, we get what we basically had since our first sin


Your first sentence is correct. If we reject Jesus Christ (see Romans 10:9-10), then we will spend eternity in hell. The rest of your post is false doctrine. We, in the Body of Christ can’t lose our salvation. Once we accept Jesus Christ, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Our salvation is assured. See Rom. 8:35, 37-39; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 1:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:12; 2:13; 1 Cor. 5:5; Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 2:6; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Col. 3:3, 13.

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
OK.  So who is not guilty.  Hypocrites, all of us!

But wait!  My guilt is covered by the blood of Jesus.  I wonder if my brothers sin is also!?  I will pray and work hard for Jesus to grow out of my own sins.  Maybe I can help my brother to do the same.


Except for the Bible quotes, the rest is simply your opinion. If you’re saved by grace, you don’t need to “work hard.” If you are saved by grace, then all you have to do is love God and your neighbor as yourself. You can’t add works to grace. For if you do, then it is no longer grace.

Or, I can falsely believe that my brother is worthy of hell fire condemnation.  Burden him with that.  Hypocritically ignore my gazillion specks, because I am saved by grace.  All the while, I am promoting a works salvation for my brother.


But you did that above when you posited that he can lose his salvation. You promoted a works salvation for yourself above.

So we do not have authority to show mercy, but we do have authority to judge our brothers.  Oh my!


if you are offended, it is not I who offends. I quoted Scripture for you. It’s God’s word that offends you.

If there is no condemnation, then why are you condemning your brother?

If my brother is committing adultery on his wife, then I should rebuke him, persuade him to repent and stop, and direct him back to Christ. He’s the lost sheep that Jesus said that you should leave the 99 to rescue. Just because he is a saved brother does not mean that I should not love him enough to save him and his family from untold unhappiness.

Well I can honestly admit, that I have never erred from the truth.  But I can see that you have.  You're going to hell if you don't repent, and see it my way.

Can you show me where I posted, “You’re going to hell if you don’t repent, and see it my way.”? You should not agree with me, or I with you. Rather, we should both agree with God’s word.

Said with complete sarcasm.  I pray that you can see the hypocricy in your statements.
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You argued in your opening sentence that we “are not allowed to judge. But, while you are reluctant to judge sinners (as Jesus commanded), you have no problem judging a fellow Christian WHO JUDGES.

Quoting you judging me:

“And Jesus will judge you with those same hellish sentences. You fail to recognize the grace that is covering those other gazillion minus one sins in your life while addressing the one in another’s life.”

Speaking of the Christian elder: “He is just as guilty as any H*mos*xual brother.” Here you did JUDGED, but not with righteous judgment. There is no moral equivalency between the Christian elder and a H*mos*xual.

“I pray that you can see the hypocrisy in your statements.”

I think you need to rethink your position on this and search the Scripture to see if your opinion lines up with God's word. And, yes, I am judging you to be lacking in sound Bible doctrine. The difference between you and I is that I know that I am doing it, and I know that I am doing it in accordance with God's word.

In you reply, it would be helpful if you could cite Scripture as foundation for your beliefs (such as gazillion specks). At least give me some reasonable hermeneutic for your interpretation. Otherwise, your post on a gazillion specks is arbitrary (made up from whole cloth) and without foundation.

TeeJay

#20 jason

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 03:26 AM

Jesus Christ taught “judge not that you be not judged” (Mat. 7:1).  But then Jesus Christ commanded men not to “judge according to appearance,” but to “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24).  And He complimented Peter for judging rightly (Luke 7:43).  To add to the confusion, the Apostle Paul rebuked the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to “judge the smallest matters” (1 Cor. 6:2).  Paul further wrote, “He who is spiritual judges all things” for “we [Christians] have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15-16).  And Paul revealed that God will delegate to his saints authority to judge the world and angels.
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?  And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Jesus Christ instructed us to rebuke our brother if he sins against us.  But before we can rebuke, we must first judge him sinful; and then to forgive him, we must judge him again to be truly repentant.  If he sins against us seven times in one day and repents seven times in one day, then we are to judge him a sinner and judge him truly repentant seven times in one day. So, how can we obey our Lord’s command to “judge not” and judge your brother a sinner and rebuke him and judge him repentant to forgive him?  Read on.
Logic tells us that before we can present the gospel of grace, we must first judge someone to be unsaved and judge him to be a sinner.  After we judge someone to be unsaved and witness to him, we must further judge him to be truly repentant and we must judge him to be truly saved.  Jesus Christ instructed, “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet” (Mat. 10:14).  This sounds very judgmental, and would not get much applause on Oprah.  But unless we judge, we cannot rebuke, forgive, or witness
The Speck in Your Brother’s Eye
Let’s reflect a bit.  How many times have we heard Christians espouse:  “Judge not that you be not judged”?  (Even unbelievers have this verse memorized.)  Jesus further said, “Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?” (Mat. 7:1 & 3)?  Let’s quote all of what Jesus said:
“Judge not, that you be not judged.  For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.  And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?  Or, how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank in your own eye?  Hypocrite!  First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”  Mat. 7:1-5
Here, Jesus is not telling us to refrain from judging.  He’s telling us how to judge.  Jesus Christ did not want us to leave our brother with the speck in his eye, or the plank.  But, He did not want us judging others for sin while we are just as guilty or guiltier.  We know that the Pharisees plotted to trap Jesus when they brought the woman caught in adultery.  But none of her accusers was worthy to judge her.  Jesus made this clear:  “He who is free from sin, cast the first stone.”  Jesus did not say that this woman, who was guilty of adultery, should not be judged.  Under the Law, she should have been judged guilty and executed (along with her lover).  But these Pharisees were not interested in Godly justice.  Their motive was to trap Jesus Christ, for the Roman authorities had taken away Israel’s authority to execute.  God did not grant authority to human government to show mercy or commute the death penalty (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).  But, Jesus Christ, as God, has this authority, and He condemned the self-righteous Pharisees and forgave the repentant woman and commuted her death penalty.  This single act by Jesus did not negate the death penalty.  Today, we should still judge and execute those who violate God’s death penalty laws.
Hypocrisy
A half-quoted verse from God’s word has paralyzed the Body of Christ.  God warns against “hypocrisy” commanding men to “abhor evil” (Rom. 12:9).  Yet to abhor evil, someone must first judge evil.  Thus, unable to judge, large numbers of Christians become hypocrites by obeying the Hypocrites Golden Rule.  Since the hypocrite doesn’t want to be judged, he judges not, for as Jesus said, “Judge not… you hypocrite” (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52).  For “judge not” (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrite’s application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12).  “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged” (Mat. 7:2).  Judge others as you would have them do unto you—inverted—is if you promise not to judge me, I promise not to judge you.
Christ kept repeating this theme in His ministry.  “Hypocrites,” Jesus said, “why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?” (Luke 12:56-57).  Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord’s harsh rebuke:  “Hypocrite!  First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to [judge, i.e., to] remove the speck from your brother’s eye” (Mat. 7:5).  “Judge Not” is the Hypocritical Oath (which will get you a standing O on Oprah by the way.
To the Jews God said, “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house” (Zech 3:7).  Are members of the Body of Christ today less capable than Israel whom God commanded to “judge righteously” (Deut. 1:16-17; Lev. 19:15)?  Moses appointed the head of one out of every ten households as a judge (Ex. 18:25; Deut. 1:15).  Should Christians toss out the entire book of Judges?  Should America eliminate all judges, or should just the Christian judges resign?  Should believers ignore Paul’s admonition:
“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?  And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?  Do you not know that you shall judge angels?  How much more, things that pertain to this life?  I say this to your shame.  Is it so that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?”  (1 Cor. 6:2-5).
Notice that Christians “will judge the world!” (1 Cor. 6:2).  For Paul said, “If the world will be judged by you. . .”  God, the Great High Judge, delegates judgment to His people.  Even spirit beings will submit to believers:  “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?”  Then and now, believers should “ judge. . . according to My judgments” (Ezek. 44:24) as God said.  The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4).
Jesus cautioned His followers, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves” (Mat. 7:15).  How are we to rebuke false prophets, unless we judge?  Paul judged a s*xually immoral man in the Corinthian Church and ordered him kicked out (1 Cor. 5:1-3).  James wrote, “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20).  How are we to let a sinner know that he has wandered from the truth, unless we first judge?  Paul judged and rebuked Peter to his face and openly before others (Gal. 2:11-14).  Paul advised Timothy, “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear” (1 Tim. 5:20).
Sins of Some Follow Later
If God were the only Judge, the sins of all men would be “clearly evident, preceding them to judgment” (1 Tim. 5:24a).  But because human beings will judge their fellow men on Judgment Day, therefore the sins “of some men follow later” (1 Tim. 5:24b).  The human judges will already have been aware of the sins of notorious men.  But they will not learn of the sins of obscure men until they are revealed at Judgment Day.  Also, these human judges will then become aware of the sins of leaders, celebrities, and even family members who had carefully concealed their wickedness.
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, may have known of this.  For he said, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all” (Jude 14:15).  The Lord, with His saints, will judge the world!
Even Nineveh Will Judge
Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. . .” (Mat. 12:41).  And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband’s fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance.  He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34-35).  God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn.  This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).
How Long O Lord?
Will the slain students in a school shooting be forgiving or judgmental toward their unrepentant murderer?  “How long O Lord before You avenge our blood?” (Rev. 6:10).  Nicer-than-God, nonjudgmental Christians are quick to judge the martyrs who cry for vengeance while forgiving the murderer.
Hopefully the Body of Christ will see the Judge not cliché die in the near future before more Christian soldiers are taken out of the battle.  And hopefully it will be replaced with, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24). 
If I were to tell you that I have no hypocrisy  in my life, I would be lying.  But my moral condition does not negate what Jesus Christ taught.  Do you agree that man’s moral condition does not negate Jesus’ command to get the speck out of your brother’s eye?  Did Jesus Christ command us to first get the log out of our own eye first? 
In our discussion, you are having great difficulty accepting a single speck.  Let’s not introduce a “gazillion specks.”  Can you give me some Biblical support for your interpretation of a gazillion specks—from theologians, other Scriptural verses, etc.  If not, will you admit that this is simply arbitrary with no Biblical foundation to support it?
If I judge with righteous judgment and I do not have a log in my own eye, can you quote me a verse that says Jesus will judge me with the “same hellish sentences”?
How can a man repent of his sin unless, and this is a big unless, he is first convicted of his sin.  Before grace can be given, the law comes first.  There are two purposes of the law:  To deter men from committing crimes and to convict and show the need for a Savior.  First, we show that he is guilty under the law.  Then we break the good news to him that he is saved by grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.  Without the condemnation of the law, he has no reason to repent.  Recall that Jesus said that the first thing we must do is ‘REPENT” for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.  But you argue that we must tell him he is saved before we tell him what he is being saved from.

There is no quicker way to destroy a brother than with false Bible teaching.
Yes!  It is a big sin, at least according to God.  God commands that h*m*sexuals be put to death (Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13.  God destroyed two cities because of this sin.  h*m*s*xuality drains the cup of iniquity to its dregs.  Paul warns that no unrepentant H*mos*xual will be saved.  Just look at the millions and millions of people who have died of AIDS and other diseases caused by this filthy lifestyle.

Now I notice that you argue that the Christian elder who utters “Oh my Lord!” is “just as guilty as any H*mos*xual brother.”  Yikes!  After this post, Fred will post Cliché’ 4, “All Sins Are Equal.”  Have you searched Scripture to see if your statement is true?

This Christian elder had a small speck in his eye.  And Paul would accuse your church with:  “Is there not one member in your church who can judge this small matter?  Do you not know that you will judge angels?  If you can’t judge this small matter, how can God grant you authority to judge the world and angels?”
But He did not say this.  He said, “Judge with righteous judgment.”  And for your blackboard scenario to be true, all of the Bible quotes that I posted above would have to be false.
No!  We can’t.  If you take the condemnation of the law out of the picture, then we do not have the knowledge of good and evil and we are not under the law and are not condemned..  Where there is no law there is no condemnation.  If you tell an unsaved person that he is saved by Grace, he can simply ask, “Saved from what.”  There is only one reason to accept Jesus Christ.  You should accept Him because you are a sinner.  If you come to Jesus for any other reason, then you are not saved.  Question for you (I would like an answer):  How can you convince a man that he is a hopelessly lost sinner who needs a Savior if you do not use the law?  Paul wrote, “The Law is our tutor to bring us to Christ.”  I think you need to rethink your position on this. 
Your first sentence is correct.  If we reject Jesus Christ (see Romans 10:9-10), then we will spend eternity in hell.  The rest of your post is false doctrine.  We, in the Body of Christ can’t lose our salvation.  Once we accept Jesus Christ, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.  Our salvation is assured.    See Rom. 8:35, 37-39; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 1:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:12; 2:13; 1 Cor. 5:5; Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 2:6; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Col. 3:3, 13.
Except for the Bible quotes, the rest is simply your opinion.  If you’re saved by grace, you don’t need to “work hard.”  If you are saved by grace, then all you have to do is love God and your neighbor as yourself.  You can’t add works to grace.  For if you do, then it is no longer grace.
But you did that above when you posited that he can lose his salvation.  You promoted a works salvation for yourself above.
if you are offended, it is not I who offends.  I quoted Scripture for you.  It’s God’s word that offends you.

If there is no condemnation, then why are you condemning your brother?

If my brother is committing adultery on his wife, then I should rebuke him, persuade him to repent and stop, and direct him back to Christ.  He’s the lost sheep that Jesus said that you should leave the 99 to rescue.  Just because he is a saved brother does not mean that I should not love him enough to save him and his family from untold unhappiness.

Well I can honestly admit, that I have never erred from the truth.  But I can see that you have.  You're going to hell if you don't repent, and see it my way.

Can you show me where I posted, “You’re going to hell if you don’t repent, and see it my way.”?  You should not agree with me, or I with you.  Rather, we should both agree with God’s word.

Said with complete sarcasm.  I pray that you can see the hypocricy in your statements.
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You argued in your opening sentence that we “are not allowed to judge.  But, while you are reluctant to judge sinners (as Jesus commanded), you have no problem judging a fellow Christian WHO JUDGES.

Quoting you judging me:

“And Jesus will judge you with those same hellish sentences.  You fail to recognize the grace that is covering those other gazillion minus one sins in your life while addressing the one in another’s life.”

Speaking of the Christian elder:  “He is just as guilty as any H*mos*xual brother.”  Here you did JUDGED, but not with righteous judgment.  There is no moral equivalency between the Christian elder and a H*mos*xual.

“I pray that you can see the hypocrisy in your statements.”

I think you need to rethink your position on this and search the Scripture to see if your opinion lines up with God's word.  And, yes, I am judging you to be lacking in sound Bible doctrine.  The difference between you and I is that I know that I am doing it, and I know that I am doing it in accordance with God's word.

In you reply, it would be helpful if you could cite Scripture as foundation for your beliefs (such as gazillion specks).  At least give me some reasonable hermeneutic for your interpretation.  Otherwise, your post on a gazillion specks is arbitrary (made up from whole cloth) and without foundation.

TeeJay

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um. your idea of judgment has been tried in the past, the puritans did that.

something about the salem witch trial and also the idea they also killed indians for land. i doubt jesus said


and here in context romans 1. paul said these(a list of doing these things)

started with verse 26.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,


Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,


Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:


Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.



hmm uh oh its not just being g*y that get that judgmen

and this verse. romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is life eternal.

note the word sin doesnt say which sin but all sin.unless you all wish to argue that some sins dont cause you not to go to hell.

if so then theres going to some "christian" athiests in heaven with us as they dont do a lot of sinning.




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