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#1 jason

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 01:55 PM

well alrighty then. i am curious. i as a former pre-tribber in eschatology want to know why 1948 is revalant? and how some come to the conclusion of the fig tree in matthew 24 meaning isreal.

when i was a pre-tribber i didnt see the fig tree as isreal.

thoughts.

#2 Fred Williams

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 02:52 PM

well alrighty then. i am curious. i as a former pre-tribber in eschatology want to know why 1948 is revalant? and how some come to the conclusion of the fig tree in matthew 24 meaning isreal.

when i was a pre-tribber i didnt see the fig tree as isreal.

thoughts.


Just opinion, my take is that Israel is not the fig tree in this case, but to be honest I haven't given this a lot of thought. However, I do believe Israel is clearly still in God's plans and that the end times will be centered around that nation. I definitely do not agree with Replacement Theology (though I do go to a church that has it in their doctrinal beliefs).

Fred

#3 Teejay

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 05:50 PM

well alrighty then. i am curious. i as a former pre-tribber in eschatology want to know why 1948 is revalant? and how some come to the conclusion of the fig tree in matthew 24 meaning isreal.

when i was a pre-tribber i didnt see the fig tree as isreal.

thoughts.


Jason,

I'm not sure that the 1948 establishment of Israel as a country is fulfillment of prophecy. God says that in the end times He will gather His people (Israel) from the four corners of the earth. Until recently, there were more jews in New York than Israel.

Are you referring to Matthew 21:19? Or are you referring to Luke 13:6-9? Jesus spoke the following parable in Luke 13:6-9:

"A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.'"

I interpret Jesus' killing of the fig tree in Matthew 21:19 as Jesus warning Israel that if He did not get some fruit, they would be cut off. Recall that Jesus warned that any tree that did not bear fruit would be "cast into the fire."

I interpret Luke 13:6-9 as Jesus saying: Look! I've been seeking fruit from my people Israel for three years now (the length of Jesus ministry) and I have found none. Cut Israel off. But the Keeper of the vineyard is the Holy Spirit who talks Jesus into giving Israel another year. And then if they do not repent and produce fruit, then cut Israel off.

The fig tree symbolizes Israel: "I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstfruits ON THE FIG TREE..." (Hosea 9:10). Also:

"Thus said the Lord, the God of Israel: 'Like these good figs, so... are [those] carried away captive from Judah... I will bring them back to the land.... And as the bad figs... are... Jerusalem...'" (Jer. 24:5-8

"[The Lord will make Israel] like rotten figs that cannot be eaten, they are bad." Jer. 29:17)

"[A nation] has laid waste My vine, and ruined My fig tree [describing Israel's destruction]."

Scripture commonly uses figs to represent blessing or cursing, etc., of the land of Israel as in Joel 1:12; 2:18 with 22:23; Num. 13:23; 20:5; Deut. 8:8; 1 Kina 4:25; Jer. 5:17; 8:13;Hosea 2:12; Amos 4:9; Haggai 2:19; Micah 4:4-5 and Zech 3:10.

The 70th Week of Daniel was to start immediately after the crucifixion and ascension of Jesus Christ. Israel was to go through the Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble (John the Baptist and Paul referred to it as the "wrath that is to come"). But all was contingent on Israel accepting their risen Christ. Peter understood this well and he was doing his best to convince Israel as a nation to accept Jesus:

"[Peter speaking] Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may SEND JESUS CHRIST, who was preached to you before, whom HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTORATON OF ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." Acts 19-21

Here, Peter offered the Kingdom to Israel, IF THE JEWS WOULD REPENT AND ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST. The "times of refreshing" [see also Isa 49:6, 8; 58:12; Isa. 28:11-12 with 1 Cor. 14-21-22] referred to Israel's kingdom.

Here's another shocker that I can present Scripture to prove: Israel was into their Tribulation when they were cut off by God for unbelief. The twelve signs given by Jesus to prepare Israel for their tribulation were fulfilled in the Book of Acts.

Two questions:

Why do you not see the fig tree as representing Israel?
Why are you no longer a pre-trib?

TeeJay

#4 Teejay

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 06:05 PM

Just opinion, my take is that Israel is not the fig tree in this case, but to be honest I haven't given this a lot of thought. However, I do believe Israel is clearly still in God's plans and that the end times will be centered around that nation. I definitely do not agree with Replacement Theology (though I do go to a church that has it in their doctrinal beliefs).

Fred


Fred,

I'll let you read my post to Jason concerning the fig tree being symbolic of Israel.

I have met some replacement theologists. They mostly ignore that Paul warned, "I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren. Israel was cut off but they will be grafted in again."

And I can show them that Israel was under the Gospel of Circumcision and not the Gospel of Grace. Under the Gospel of Circumcision, Israel was commanded by God to circumcise, keep Sabbath law, and many of the feasts. But many Christians seem to think that Israel was no longer under the law after the Cross. This can't be defended, bucause Sabbath law and circumcision, for example, are PERPETUAL laws for Israel. Israel will be keeping these laws in the New Heaven and the New Earth. If you like, I can present this argument at length--with Scripture verses. Perhaps you can take it to your church to see if they can respond.

TeeJay

#5 jason

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 03:45 AM

matthew 24 is the fig tree in question. i gave up pre-trib a few months ago.

1) Once the rapture occurs the trib-saints wont know they they are in the trib thus God wouldnt leave them without a comforter or the word. and reading the word as is without commentaries leaves one kinda cluesless on what did come to pass and what hasnt.
2)if they do know the doctrine then they know of time to the date christ returns
3) the great tribulations saints in heaven are delineated to be only these that didnt take the mark of the beast and also worship the beast and kept the testimony of the lord. and only they reign with christ thus violating what paul says in 1 corinthians 6 on the saints who were prior to the rapture judging men and angels
4)up to 200 yrs ago the the ecf and the church as whole didnt buy into a seven yr tribulation

i have more. shall i continue.

#6 Teejay

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:33 AM

matthew 24 is the fig tree in question. i gave up pre-trib a few months ago.

1) Once the rapture occurs the trib-saints wont know they they are in the trib thus God wouldnt leave them without a comforter or the word. and reading the word as is without commentaries leaves one kinda cluesless on what did come to pass and what hasnt.
2)if they do know the doctrine then they know of time to the date christ returns
3) the great tribulations saints in heaven are delineated to be only these that didnt take the mark of the beast and also worship the beast and kept the testimony of the lord. and only they reign with christ thus violating what paul says in 1 corinthians 6 on the saints who were prior to the rapture judging men and angels
4)up to 200 yrs ago the the ecf and the church as whole didnt buy into a seven yr tribulation

i have more. shall i continue.


Jason,

1) When the Rapture occurs, there will not be one "trib-saint on Planet Earth. All in the Body of Christ (saved by grace in accordance Romans 10:9-10)will be Raptured. All those left are outside the Body of Christ are left and will go through the "wrath that is to come."

2) Not even Jesus knows the time of Jesus' second coming. Why did not Jesus, who is God the Son, not know? Because His return was contingent on Israel's rejecting or accepting Jesus as the Christ. And Jesus pointed out to His disciples in Acts 1:7 that only the Father had authority to determine the time of Jesus' return. Recall that Jesus said that "if I bear witness of myself, don't believe Me" (John 5:31). Jesus was sent by the Father (who bears witness of Him). And Jesus will be sent by the Father at His second coming.

3) The Tribulation saints are those who have gone through the Tribulation and have been killed for not denouncing Jesus and have not taken the Mark of the Beast. They will reign and govern with Jesus Christ here on earth in the thousand year kingdom.


Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev. 20:1-5

There is no violation of 1 Cor. 6. We in the Body of Christ will judge angels and the whole unbelieving world at the Great White Throne Judgment. All unbelievers will be judged under the law and will be condemned by it. Paul wrote, "By the law no flesh will be justified." When we accept Jesus, we are taken out from the condemnation of the law and can't be condemned. But our citizenship is in heaven (Phil. 3:20; 2:10; Eph. 1:10; 3:15; Col. 1:5, 20; 3:1-2' 2 Cor. 5:1; 2 Tim. 4:18). Israel will reside on earth in their kingdom with Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords.

4) Aristotle taught that the sun orbited the earth. But the Christian scientists in Christianized Europe proved him wrong. Not believing in the Tribulation does not make it null and void. Daniel and Jesus Christ bought into the Tribulation and Jesus spent much of his time preparing his disciples to go through it.

The Rapture is not mentioned by Daniel, Jesus Christ, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, or any circumcision apostle. Why is this? Because the establishment of the Body of Christ was a future event and was contingent on Israel rejecting or accepting Jesus as the Christ. Sadly, the whole nation of Israel rejected their Messiah and killed the apostles. Patience exhaused, God cut off Israel and commissioned Paul to bypass Israel and go directly to the Gentile nations. But Paul did not preach a circumcision gospel. He was given the gospel of grace where circumcision is no longer necessary. So it follows that the Body of Christ does not fit into God's plans for Israel which is future. Jesus Christ will return to His first love (Israel) and take up where He left off 2,000 years ago. But we in the Body are "saved from the wrath that is to come," as Paul wrote.

TeeJay

#7 jason

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 10:04 AM

Jason,

1) When the Rapture occurs, there will not be one "trib-saint on Planet Earth. All in the Body of Christ (saved by grace in accordance Romans 10:9-10)will be Raptured. All those left are outside the Body of Christ are left and will go through the "wrath that is to come."

2) Not even Jesus knows the time of Jesus' second coming. Why did not Jesus, who is God the Son, not know? Because His return was contingent on Israel's rejecting or accepting Jesus as the Christ. And Jesus pointed out to His disciples in Acts 1:7 that only the Father had authority to determine the time of Jesus' return. Recall that Jesus said that "if I bear witness of myself, don't believe Me" (John 5:31). Jesus was sent by the Father (who bears witness of Him). And Jesus will be sent by the Father at His second coming.

3) The Tribulation saints are those who have gone through the Tribulation and have been killed for not denouncing Jesus and have not taken the Mark of the Beast. They will reign and govern with Jesus Christ here on earth in the thousand year kingdom.


Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev. 20:1-5

There is no violation of 1 Cor. 6. We in the Body of Christ will judge angels and the whole unbelieving world at the Great White Throne Judgment. All unbelievers will be judged under the law and will be condemned by it. Paul wrote, "By the law no flesh will be justified." When we accept Jesus, we are taken out from the condemnation of the law and can't be condemned. But our citizenship is in heaven (Phil. 3:20; 2:10; Eph. 1:10; 3:15; Col. 1:5, 20; 3:1-2' 2 Cor. 5:1; 2 Tim. 4:18). Israel will reside on earth in their kingdom with Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords.

4) Aristotle taught that the sun orbited the earth. But the Christian scientists in Christianized Europe proved him wrong. Not believing in the Tribulation does not make it null and void. Daniel and Jesus Christ bought into the Tribulation and Jesus spent much of his time preparing his disciples to go through it.

The Rapture is not mentioned by Daniel, Jesus Christ, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, or any circumcision apostle. Why is this? Because the establishment of the Body of Christ was a future event and was contingent on Israel rejecting or accepting Jesus as the Christ. Sadly, the whole nation of Israel rejected their Messiah and killed the apostles. Patience exhaused, God cut off Israel and commissioned Paul to bypass Israel and go directly to the Gentile nations. But Paul did not preach a circumcision gospel. He was given the gospel of grace where circumcision is no longer necessary. So it follows that the Body of Christ does not fit into God's plans for Israel which is future. Jesus Christ will return to His first love (Israel) and take up where He left off 2,000 years ago. But we in the Body are "saved from the wrath that is to come," as Paul wrote.

TeeJay

that isnt what pre-trib doctrine says. that is my position. the pre-trib is that there will be a seven yr period of hell on earth with the most intensity after the ac declares himself God. they do teach persons will be saved that way.

simply put we are in the tribulation now. besides how is the jews going to get saved? they must do as we do and believe without the law getting them in. and besides the jews arent that big enough to fufill the great trib mulitudes, as hebrews of which i am one of is less then 6% of the earths populace.

ye shall not see me till ye say barcuchba beshem adonai. isreal must do that first for the lord to come to their rescue as a nation. jews are saved on the individual scale. think paul wilbur and the jews for jesus movement. so jews will be in heaven with us when the pre-wrath rapture occurs. i dont believe we are except from the time of wrath of satan nor man.

#8 jason

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 10:13 AM

the time frame of a seven yr does violate the no man noweth the hour. and uh if its only the "body of christ"then the saved jews arent part of the body of christ nor the trib saints?

also grace doesnt stop for them. do you see the problem? one isnt perfect in the trib grace will be most needed. they cant save themselves and if the holy spirit doesnt dwell in them arent one of his.its not denying the trib, i was a hardore tribber for yrs but i as was challenged by the bible believing non-tribber i began to look hard at the bible and found that it doesnt support the trib idea at all. i dont see God saying grace for those now and no grace for those after the rapture. once his judgments start then its no grace at all and none are saved. orgininally scholfied had it like this the jews could reach God with the ot way and the christian with christ ans made it with christ. that is unbiblical.

how will the jews come to christ? the 144,000? possible but still the earth has billions. its possible but still. i know you all assume those are super saints when much isnt said on them teaching, just who they are.show me in the bible them teaching and preaching. theres none. i do believe that but i cant honeslty say that they do, it could be that these are the only jews saved, and become a ruling class.

#9 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 12:17 PM

Fred,

I'll let you read my post to Jason concerning the fig tree being symbolic of Israel.

I have met some replacement theologists. They mostly ignore that Paul warned, "I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren. Israel was cut off but they will be grafted in again."

And I can show them that Israel was under the Gospel of Circumcision and not the Gospel of Grace. Under the Gospel of Circumcision, Israel was commanded by God to circumcise, keep Sabbath law, and many of the feasts. But many Christians seem to think that Israel was no longer under the law after the Cross. This can't be defended, bucause Sabbath law and circumcision, for example, are PERPETUAL laws for Israel. Israel will be keeping these laws in the New Heaven and the New Earth. If you like, I can present this argument at length--with Scripture verses. Perhaps you can take it to your church to see if they can respond.

TeeJay


There's one person in particular, a retired Pastor, who is pretty passionate about this. I'd like to set it up where you post your argument here, and ask him to respond. I'm not sure how willing he would be to do this, and I'm not sure how internet-savvy he is. I'll check...

#10 Teejay

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:14 PM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1307984648' post='72853']
that isnt what pre-trib doctrine says. that is my position. the pre-trib is that there will be a seven yr period of hell on earth with the most intensity after the ac declares himself God. they do teach persons will be saved that way.[/QUOTE]

Jason, let me present to you in full what I believe.

THE RAPTURE

The Rapture Appears Only in Paul’s Writings

Rapture teaching does not appear in the Old Testament. Further, the Rapture does not appear anywhere in the New Testament other than in Paul’s writings. Unbelievers trying to instill doubt concerning the authority of the Bible sometimes point out that Paul’s teachings, including Rapture, run contrary to much of the Biblical record. One expects such from the heathen. Sadly, however, some Christians attempting to discredit Rapture teaching actually try to demean the subject by pointing out that only Paul mentions it. On the 700 Club, Pat Robertson said he did not believe in any sort of Rapture and there was no Biblical support for the notion of a rapture. Go figure!

Some, making a contrary error (though less egregious) suppose that Jesus taught about the Rapture. However since the departure of the Body of Christ is part of God’s “unprophesied” mystery for the Body, Christ would not have mentioned it. What then was Jesus referring to in the following passage?

“Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left.” Mat. 24:40-41

Superficially it may seem that Christ is speaking of the Rapture, a great departure, or something similar, since it is supposed that those “taken” are blessed and those left are cursed. However, the context shows the opposite is the case. Those left are left due to mercy and those taken are taken in judgment.

For in the time of Noah:

“…the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Mat. 24:39

Those in unbelief are taken away in judgment in this context. Further, concerning the Kingdom Christ earlier taught:

“The Son of Man will send out His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness and will cast them into the furnace of fire.” Mat. 13:41-42

The angels will take away evil men in judgment (see also Mat. 13:49-50), leaving righteous men remaining (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9), rooted in “good ground” (Mat. 13:23). So the angels do not rapture, but take away in judgment the man “in the field” and the woman “at the mill.” Luke gives additional proof of this by recording the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” Like students today, they wondered where those people would be “taken.” Jesus replied, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles [vultures] will be gathered together” (Luke 17:37). The Lord thus quoted Job about “the eagle [vulture]” (Job 39:27) and “where the slain are, there it is” (Job 39:30). (This also shows that “the coming of the Son of Man” as “lightning comes from the east” (Mat. 24:27) refers to a coming in judgment (and not for rapture) because Matthew immediately adds Christ’s same quote about “the carcass” and “the eagles” (Mat. 24:28). So Jesus spoke of judgment and not of Rapture. After all,, the Rapture was also a mystery (1 Cor. 15:51) which God revealed only through the Apostle Paul for the Body of Christ.

The Rapture is Another Mystery

Yes, not only was the Body of Christ a mystery, but God’s plans for the Body were also a mystery, including the Rapture, which had never before been revealed:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:51-52

God kept a secret of the Body and of the Rapture. Of those saved by the Gospel of the Uncircumcision (grace) “we shall not all sleep.” This means that some members of the Body of Christ will not die. “Sleep” is a metaphor for death (John 11:11-14). Paul commonly used this figure of speech (Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Thes. 4:14; 5:10). The “last trumpet” here is not the last trump for Israel, which will still have seven more trumpet blasts to endure in the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:6). This is the last trumpet for the Body of Christ.

Recall that the Great Tribulation is “the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble (Jer. 30:7), that is, Israel’s Tribulation. Thus the seven trumpet blasts of Revelation are part of the purification process for the nation of Israel (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9; Luke 21:20-24; Mat. 24:9) to prepare them to inherit their Kingdom (Mat. 25:34; Dan. 9:24).

The great mystery is that God broke down the wall of partition (symbolized by the partition in the Temple between the Court of the Gentiles and the inner courts) between Jew and Gentile, which was the law (Eph. 2:14-15), to create the Body of Christ. Hence, God did not intend to submit this new Body to His old plans for Israel. Those plans do not fit God’s new program—the Body under the Gospel of Uncircumcision (grace).

God saved the Gentiles in part “to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy” (Rom. 11:11). Therefore God gave the Body a heavenly calling (Eph. 1:3; 2:6; Phil 3:20) rather than a calling to an earthly kingdom (Mat. 6:10). The Last Days prophecy for the Body is not filled with trouble and terror as Israel’s is, but as Paul says, these things will comfort (1 Thes. 4:18) the Body. After God finishes His work with the Body He will return to His plans for Israel (Rom. 11:25). At that point the Body will have completed its ministry upon earth. Therefore God will Rapture His Church (the Body) just prior to rejoining the program for Israel where He left off, toward the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week.


We, the Body of Christ, Are Not Israel

Jesus’ original plan, which was prophesied throughout the whole Old Testament, was to give Israel a Kingdom with Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords. Israel rejected their risen Christ. God’s plan for Israel’s kingdom was Plan A.

But, just as a good general will have a Plan B (and even a Plan C) should Plan A fail, God had a Plan B should Israel reject Jesus’ offer. “Because of unbelief” God cut off Israel. When He did this, He took Paul sent him directly to the Gentiles, bypassing Israel. He also gave Paul new marching orders—the Gospel of Uncircumcision or Gospel of Grace.

Had Israel not rejected Jesus, they would have gone through their Tribulation or the Time of Jacob’s trouble 2,000 years ago. Jesus would have then returned, established their kingdom, and judged nations, etc. Make sense?

The Departure “Comes First”

Paul wrote about the Rapture again in his second epistle to the Thessalonians and placed it prior to the Tribulation. The Greek noun, pronounced ap-os-tas-ee’-ah appears in that context. Understanding apostaseeah involves a related word, its cognate verb, pronounced aph-is’-tay-mee. In the New Testament, these two Greek words can translate into apostasy, as in forsake, fall away and departure. These related words both have two related meanings: departure, as in from a place, as in the angel departed; and apostasy, as in from a creed, as in they departed from Moses. Thus Paul could use apostaseeah, meaning departure (or Rapture) as a sign that will precede the Day of Christ [i.e., the Day of the Lord].

Therefore, we must consider the intended meaning by the context. For what sign will precede the Day of the Lord, departure from the faith (as in apostasy), or departure from earth (as in Rapture). Let’s look at the context:

Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him we ask you, not to be soon shaken… as though the Day of Christ had come. 2 Thes. 2:1-2

The context is “our gathering together to Him” at “the coming of our Lord.” The Rapture, that is, the supernatural departure of the Church (Body of Christ) from the earth is the context.

Paul went further to correct a rumor that they were living in the Day of the Lord. Paul wrote:

… that Day will not come unless the falling away [departure] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition. 2 Thes. 2:3

Pray for Fullness, Not Apostasy

One final point is that Israel’s Day of the Lord, called the time of Jacob’s trouble, begins not after the falling away but after the fullness. For:

…hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [into the Body]. And so all Israel will be saved…. Rom. 11:25-26

Hence the Lord does not come for the Body after the forsaking but after the fullness. Thus to hasten the Lord’s coming, believers should pray for a full harvest, not a falling away.

When the truth is “rightly divided,” all pieces of the Scriptural puzzle fit without being forced or spiritualized. And best of all, theories of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and partial Rapture, et.al. are easily deemed absurd.

As Paul admonished, “We should all study to show ourselves approved.”

[quote]simply put we are in the tribulation now. besides how is the jews going to get saved? they must do as we do and believe without the law getting them in. and besides the jews arent that big enough to fufill the great trib mulitudes, as hebrews of which i am one of is less then 6% of the earths populace.[/quote]

Can you present proof that we are now in the Tribulation? Present, Jews are under the same dispensation as you and I--the Gospel of Grace. The Tribulation that is coming is not the one that Jesus warned His followers about. The Tribulation that's coming is described in Revelation and is worldwide. But after the Body of Christ is raptured, all those left will be under the Gospel of Circumcision or the law.

[quote]ye shall not see me till ye say barcuchba beshem adonai. isreal must do that first for the lord to come to their rescue as a nation. jews are saved on the individual scale. think paul wilbur and the jews for jesus movement. so jews will be in heaven with us when the pre-wrath rapture occurs. i dont believe we are except from the time of wrath of satan nor man.
[/quote]

The Lord coming to Israel after the Tribulation and the Lord coming to Rapture out His body of believers are two different events.

TeeJay
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#11 Teejay

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 05:41 PM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1307985200' post='72854']
the time frame of a seven yr does violate the no man noweth the hour. and uh if its only the "body of christ"then the saved jews arent part of the body of christ nor the trib saints?[/quote]

Jason, can I ask a favor. I'm not that swift a typist. Can you let me answer one post before you post a second?

Every person saved from Acts 9 until today are saved under the Gospel of Grace. Paul writes that in the Body of Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free. Under the Gospel of Circumcision or Law, a Jewish male came under the Abrahamic Covenant when he was circumcised on the eighth day. A female came under it when she was born to a Jewish man or when she married a Jewish man. A Gentile came under it when he became a proselte Jew. A slave came under it if he was in bondange to a Jewish family. But Paul points out that in the Body of Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile. We can all come boldly to the throne of God. All, Jews and Gentiles, are saved by grace under Paul's gospel.

You must realize that Israel, as a nation, was cut off for unbelief. When God did this, He simultaneously commissioned Paul to go to Jews and Gentiles with the Gospel of Grace. Peter and James are part of Israel, saved under the Gospel of Circumcision or law. That dispensation of law is temporarily on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in under the Gospel of Grace. Then God will go back to working with Israel where he left off 2,000 years ago. Israel's laws of circumcision, Sabbaths, feasts are perpetual for Israel. Israel will be observing these laws in the thousand year kingdom and in the new heaven and the new earth.

[QUOTE]also grace doesnt stop for them. do you see the problem? one isnt perfect in the trib grace will be most needed. they cant save themselves and if the holy spirit doesnt dwell in them arent one of his.its not denying the trib, i was a hardore tribber for yrs but i as was challenged by the bible believing non-tribber i began to look hard at the bible and found that it doesnt support the trib idea at all. i dont see God saying grace for those now and no grace for those after the rapture. once his judgments start then its no grace at all and none are saved. orgininally scholfied had it like this the jews could reach God with the ot way and the christian with christ ans made it with christ. that is unbiblical.[/QUOTE]

I challenge you to find a grace gospel in any circumcision apostle's writing. It's not in Matthew, Mark, John, Luke, James. The grace gospel can only be found in Paul's writings. If you bear with me, I can show you that circumcision, Sabbath law, and many of Israel's feasts are perpetual covenants. As long as Israel exists, they will be under the law. But PLEASE UNDERSTAND that presently, Jews and Gentiles are under Paul's gospel of grace. When the Body is raptures, Jesus will come back to Israel and all Jews alive on earth will be under the Gospel of Circumcision or law.

We must also understand that although Israel was under the law, they were still saved by grace. Peter affirms this at the Jerusalem Council. While Israel had to keep the law, they could not do it perfectly. God would add a little grace and say, "Well done good and faithful servant." But God will never say that to us in the Body of Christ. Once we comply with Romans 10:9-10, our salvation is assured. Now works can save us. For if we do works to be saved, we make grace (free grift) null and void. This is why Paul would go postal when his converts got circumcised and tried to keep the Mosic law. "O foolish Galitians. Who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh [law keeping]. I fear for you!" God can add grace to works, but He can't add works to grace.

[quote]how will the jews come to christ? the 144,000? possible but still the earth has billions. its possible but still. i know you all assume those are super saints when much isnt said on them teaching, just who they are.show me in the bible them teaching and preaching. theres none. i do believe that but i cant honeslty say that they do, it could be that these are the only jews saved, and become a ruling class.
[/quote]

I'll get back to you on this last one.

TeeJay
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#12 jason

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:05 PM

Jason, let me present to you in full what I believe.

THE RAPTURE

The Rapture Appears Only in Paul’s Writings

Rapture teaching does not appear in the Old Testament. Further, the Rapture does not appear anywhere in the New Testament other than in Paul’s writings. Unbelievers trying to instill doubt concerning the authority of the Bible sometimes point out that Paul’s teachings, including Rapture, run contrary to much of the Biblical record. One expects such from the heathen. Sadly, however, some Christians attempting to discredit Rapture teaching actually try to demean the subject by pointing out that only Paul mentions it. On the 700 Club, Pat Robertson said he did not believe in any sort of Rapture and there was no Biblical support for the notion of a rapture. Go figure!

Some, making a contrary error (though less egregious) suppose that Jesus taught about the Rapture. However since the departure of the Body of Christ is part of God’s “unprophesied” mystery for the Body, Christ would not have mentioned it. What then was Jesus referring to in the following passage?

“Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left.” Mat. 24:40-41

Superficially it may seem that Christ is speaking of the Rapture, a great departure, or something similar, since it is supposed that those “taken” are blessed and those left are cursed. However, the context shows the opposite is the case. Those left are left due to mercy and those taken are taken in judgment.

For in the time of Noah:

“…the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Mat. 24:39

Those in unbelief are taken away in judgment in this context. Further, concerning the Kingdom Christ earlier taught:

“The Son of Man will send out His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness and will cast them into the furnace of fire.” Mat. 13:41-42

The angels will take away evil men in judgment (see also Mat. 13:49-50), leaving righteous men remaining (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9), rooted in “good ground” (Mat. 13:23). So the angels do not rapture, but take away in judgment the man “in the field” and the woman “at the mill.” Luke gives additional proof of this by recording the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” Like students today, they wondered where those people would be “taken.” Jesus replied, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles [vultures] will be gathered together” (Luke 17:37). The Lord thus quoted Job about “the eagle [vulture]” (Job 39:27) and “where the slain are, there it is” (Job 39:30). (This also shows that “the coming of the Son of Man” as “lightning comes from the east” (Mat. 24:27) refers to a coming in judgment (and not for rapture) because Matthew immediately adds Christ’s same quote about “the carcass” and “the eagles” (Mat. 24:28). So Jesus spoke of judgment and not of Rapture. After all,, the Rapture was also a mystery (1 Cor. 15:51) which God revealed only through the Apostle Paul for the Body of Christ.

The Rapture is Another Mystery

Yes, not only was the Body of Christ a mystery, but God’s plans for the Body were also a mystery, including the Rapture, which had never before been revealed:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:51-52

God kept a secret of the Body and of the Rapture. Of those saved by the Gospel of the Uncircumcision (grace) “we shall not all sleep.” This means that some members of the Body of Christ will not die. “Sleep” is a metaphor for death (John 11:11-14). Paul commonly used this figure of speech (Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Thes. 4:14; 5:10). The “last trumpet” here is not the last trump for Israel, which will still have seven more trumpet blasts to endure in the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:6). This is the last trumpet for the Body of Christ.

Recall that the Great Tribulation is “the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble (Jer. 30:7), that is, Israel’s Tribulation. Thus the seven trumpet blasts of Revelation are part of the purification process for the nation of Israel (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9; Luke 21:20-24; Mat. 24:9) to prepare them to inherit their Kingdom (Mat. 25:34; Dan. 9:24).

The great mystery is that God broke down the wall of partition (symbolized by the partition in the Temple between the Court of the Gentiles and the inner courts) between Jew and Gentile, which was the law (Eph. 2:14-15), to create the Body of Christ. Hence, God did not intend to submit this new Body to His old plans for Israel. Those plans do not fit God’s new program—the Body under the Gospel of Uncircumcision (grace).

God saved the Gentiles in part “to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy” (Rom. 11:11). Therefore God gave the Body a heavenly calling (Eph. 1:3; 2:6; Phil 3:20) rather than a calling to an earthly kingdom (Mat. 6:10). The Last Days prophecy for the Body is not filled with trouble and terror as Israel’s is, but as Paul says, these things will comfort (1 Thes. 4:18) the Body. After God finishes His work with the Body He will return to His plans for Israel (Rom. 11:25). At that point the Body will have completed its ministry upon earth. Therefore God will Rapture His Church (the Body) just prior to rejoining the program for Israel where He left off, toward the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week.


We, the Body of Christ, Are Not Israel

Jesus’ original plan, which was prophesied throughout the whole Old Testament, was to give Israel a Kingdom with Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords. Israel rejected their risen Christ. God’s plan for Israel’s kingdom was Plan A.

But, just as a good general will have a Plan B (and even a Plan C) should Plan A fail, God had a Plan B should Israel reject Jesus’ offer. “Because of unbelief” God cut off Israel. When He did this, He took Paul sent him directly to the Gentiles, bypassing Israel. He also gave Paul new marching orders—the Gospel of Uncircumcision or Gospel of Grace.

Had Israel not rejected Jesus, they would have gone through their Tribulation or the Time of Jacob’s trouble 2,000 years ago. Jesus would have then returned, established their kingdom, and judged nations, etc. Make sense?

The Departure “Comes First”

Paul wrote about the Rapture again in his second epistle to the Thessalonians and placed it prior to the Tribulation. The Greek noun, pronounced ap-os-tas-ee’-ah appears in that context. Understanding apostaseeah involves a related word, its cognate verb, pronounced aph-is’-tay-mee. In the New Testament, these two Greek words can translate into apostasy, as in forsake, fall away and departure. These related words both have two related meanings: departure, as in from a place, as in the angel departed; and apostasy, as in from a creed, as in they departed from Moses. Thus Paul could use apostaseeah, meaning departure (or Rapture) as a sign that will precede the Day of Christ [i.e., the Day of the Lord].

Therefore, we must consider the intended meaning by the context. For what sign will precede the Day of the Lord, departure from the faith (as in apostasy), or departure from earth (as in Rapture). Let’s look at the context:

Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him we ask you, not to be soon shaken… as though the Day of Christ had come. 2 Thes. 2:1-2

The context is “our gathering together to Him” at “the coming of our Lord.” The Rapture, that is, the supernatural departure of the Church (Body of Christ) from the earth is the context.

Paul went further to correct a rumor that they were living in the Day of the Lord. Paul wrote:

… that Day will not come unless the falling away [departure] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition. 2 Thes. 2:3

Pray for Fullness, Not Apostasy

One final point is that Israel’s Day of the Lord, called the time of Jacob’s trouble, begins not after the falling away but after the fullness. For:

…hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [into the Body]. And so all Israel will be saved…. Rom. 11:25-26

Hence the Lord does not come for the Body after the forsaking but after the fullness. Thus to hasten the Lord’s coming, believers should pray for a full harvest, not a falling away.

When the truth is “rightly divided,” all pieces of the Scriptural puzzle fit without being forced or spiritualized. And best of all, theories of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and partial Rapture, et.al. are easily deemed absurd.

As Paul admonished, “We should all study to show ourselves approved.”



Can you present proof that we are now in the Tribulation? Present, Jews are under the same dispensation as you and I--the Gospel of Grace. The Tribulation that is coming is not the one that Jesus warned His followers about. The Tribulation that's coming is described in Revelation and is worldwide. But after the Body of Christ is raptured, all those left will be under the Gospel of Circumcision or the law.



The Lord coming to Israel after the Tribulation and the Lord coming to Rapture out His body of believers are two different events.

TeeJay

i say were in the tribulation now why. because God said that the world would hate us, and if you look at the verses where we are killed all the day long, can you name one day where a christian isnt killed in the world ie china, darfur and the muslim nations.

you also assumed that daniel nine that some use to refer the unfullilled seventeith isnt fulliled.

#13 jason

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:15 PM

Jason, can I ask a favor. I'm not that swift a typist. Can you let me answer one post before you post a second?

Every person saved from Acts 9 until today are saved under the Gospel of Grace. Paul writes that in the Body of Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free. Under the Gospel of Circumcision or Law, a Jewish male came under the Abrahamic Covenant when he was circumcised on the eighth day. A female came under it when she was born to a Jewish man or when she married a Jewish man. A Gentile came under it when he became a proselte Jew. A slave came under it if he was in bondange to a Jewish family. But Paul points out that in the Body of Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile. We can all come boldly to the throne of God. All, Jews and Gentiles, are saved by grace under Paul's gospel.

You must realize that Israel, as a nation, was cut off for unbelief. When God did this, He simultaneously commissioned Paul to go to Jews and Gentiles with the Gospel of Grace. Peter and James are part of Israel, saved under the Gospel of Circumcision or law. That dispensation of law is temporarily on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in under the Gospel of Grace. Then God will go back to working with Israel where he left off 2,000 years ago. Israel's laws of circumcision, Sabbaths, feasts are perpetual for Israel. Israel will be observing these laws in the thousand year kingdom and in the new heaven and the new earth.



I challenge you to find a grace gospel in any circumcision apostle's writing. It's not in Matthew, Mark, John, Luke, James. The grace gospel can only be found in Paul's writings. If you bear with me, I can show you that circumcision, Sabbath law, and many of Israel's feasts are perpetual covenants. As long as Israel exists, they will be under the law. But PLEASE UNDERSTAND that presently, Jews and Gentiles are under Paul's gospel of grace. When the Body is raptures, Jesus will come back to Israel and all Jews alive on earth will be under the Gospel of Circumcision or law.

We must also understand that although Israel was under the law, they were still saved by grace. Peter affirms this at the Jerusalem Council. While Israel had to keep the law, they could not do it perfectly. God would add a little grace and say, "Well done good and faithful servant." But God will never say that to us in the Body of Christ. Once we comply with Romans 10:9-10, our salvation is assured. Now works can save us. For if we do works to be saved, we make grace (free grift) null and void. This is why Paul would go postal when his converts got circumcised and tried to keep the Mosic law. "O foolish Galitians. Who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh [law keeping]. I fear for you!" God can add grace to works, but He can't add works to grace.



I'll get back to you on this last one.

TeeJay



i am sorry, i dont buy that either as one as jew then i shouldnt be in christ eh? his blood isnt sufficient but the blood of goats and lambs is? why would God then reverse his decision to the jews who then he deals with and then accept their animal sacrifices? he came to show them that he fullfilled the law not to opps its for the gentiles only and you jews can do it too but one day its that is going away.

any gentile who was willing to serve God in the days of the torah could do so if they wanted to and they could be circumsized. ie rachab and naomi and urijah the hittite. so if isreal was to be the means to save the world ere the messiah why then would he set them up to do the exact say thing again? makes no sense.


i dont see your position at all but i see why you say that.keep in mind who prophecy is written. did isiah literally say we esteemed him not and we hid our faces from him. to whom is this we? the pharisees? or the apostles?

our faith is a jewish one and the feasts arent required for salvation but were a means to point to the cross.look i have just particapated in a jewish burial, and as tempting as it was for me to leave christ and go to judaism i wont. i see no need to reverse course. do you actually listen to why the jews of today reject christ? and why the pharisees did.

who says the jews when they can and do come to christ dont worship him as we do?

#14 Teejay

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:27 AM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1308017158' post='72877']
i say were in the tribulation now why. because God said that the world would hate us, and if you look at the verses where we are killed all the day long, can you name one day where a christian isnt killed in the world ie china, darfur and the muslim nations.[/quote]

Jason,

Do you understand that the Tribulation to come is described in Revelation? If you are a Christian, you are "saved from the wrath that is to come." You can't experience that which you are saved from. Yes. Christians (and Jews) are hated and persecuted. Christians are hated for Jesus's sake; Jews because they are God's chosen people. But if you read Revelation, the opening of the seals and the seven trumpets will make our persecution pale in comparison. Trust me. People who are going to endure the "wrath that is to come" will not have to debate (like we are now) if we are in the Tribulation.

Regarding the 144,000, read Revelation 7 and Revelaton 14:1, 3.

[quote]you also assumed that daniel nine that some use to refer the unfullilled seventeith isnt fulliled.
[/quote]

If Daniel's 70th week had been fulfilled, Israel would have their kingdom, and Jesus Christ would be sitting on King David's throne as King of kings and Lord of lords. This has not happened and is future.

Question: Are you a replacement theologist? Definition: That we Gentiles have replaced the nation of Israel and that Israel has been permanently cut off.

TeeJay

#15 Teejay

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:57 AM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1308017732' post='72879']
i am sorry, i dont buy that either as one as jew then i shouldnt be in christ eh? his blood isnt sufficient but the blood of goats and lambs is? why would God then reverse his decision to the jews who then he deals with and then accept their animal sacrifices? he came to show them that he fullfilled the law not to opps its for the gentiles only and you jews can do it too but one day its that is going away.

any gentile who was willing to serve God in the days of the torah could do so if they wanted to and they could be circumsized. ie rachab and naomi and urijah the hittite. so if isreal was to be the means to save the world ere the messiah why then would he set them up to do the exact say thing again? makes no sense.


i dont see your position at all but i see why you say that.keep in mind who prophecy is written. did isiah literally say we esteemed him not and we hid our faces from him. to whom is this we? the pharisees? or the apostles?

our faith is a jewish one and the feasts arent required for salvation but were a means to point to the cross.look i have just particapated in a jewish burial, and as tempting as it was for me to leave christ and go to judaism i wont. i see no need to reverse course. do you actually listen to why the jews of today reject christ? and why the pharisees did.

who says the jews when they can and do come to christ dont worship him as we do?
[/quote]

Jason, if you are going to disagree with what I post, can you refute with Scripture. For example, I will answer your last question:

Since Paul in Acts 9, the whole world has been under the Dispensation of Grace or the Gospel of Uncircumcision (See Gal. 2:7-9). Under the Gospel of Uncircumcision, there is "no Jew or Gentile, no female or male, no slave or free." All(Jews and Gentiles) can get saved the same way by accepting Jesus in accordance with Rom. 10:9-10. But, and this is a big but, when the Body of Christ (all saved since Acts 9 and Paul's commission, under the Gospel of uncircumcision)is Raptured out of here, and Jesus comes back, there will be no dispensation of grace. Jesus is coming back to Isarel and Israel is under the law and will be saved by the Gospel of Circumcision or law. ("The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.") Circumcision is a synonym for law. Now, circumcision, Sabbath law, and many of the feasts are PERPETUAL laws FOR ISRAEL. When God told the Twelve to go to the nations (which they never did) the tools He gave them to evangelize was not grace. They were to take three things to the world as testimony--law, miracles, and Jesus Christ. Ironically, in the Ark of the Covenant (which is also called the Ark of Testimony)had three things--law (stone tablets), miracles (Aaron's rod that bloomed), and the Manna (symbolizes Jesus Christ). Jesus told his disciples that they would lay hands on the sick and they would recover. Do we see that happening today? No. Jesus told Paul, "My grace is sufficient for you."

Jason, I want you to do a Bible search. See if you can find where God did away with circumcision, Sabbath law, and the feasts for the NATION OF ISRAEL. But, you are not allowed to use any of Paul's writings.

TeeJay

#16 jason

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:22 PM

really? my church has had miracles and some were cured of cancer. i have met one family who had a son who had no cure and was brain dead and yet is fully functional?why God healed him.

next can you explain to what this verse meant?

http://www.biblegate... 36&version=KJV

i am fulfilled jew meaning that i am a messianic and that i am a christian. what does the 144k teach and preach how will the myriads of the gentiles be saved? by the law? or by preaching of the entire bible?

i have read revalation several times. can you tell me what this means?
from hosea 2
And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them that were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God

so we christian who are kings children and heirs in christ by adoption arent his? do tell.



and please reconcile this verse? for their neither greek nor jew , nor male nor female..


please also tell me why would god play this game with my kin the jews? tell them no you cant come to me that way and yet say yes after this rapture that is the way? God hasnt forgotten isreal but the only way a jew can be saved is through christ. and uh if you say isreal is under law NOW! then can you tell me why God paused that? and you err on what the ancient men of God taught on the law. moses preached faith through circumcision and heres what he said.

paul quotes in romans 2:28

from moses.

and note this part in loving strangers

deut 10:
16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

18He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

19Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

20Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

21He is thy praise, and he is thy God, that hath done for thee these great and terrible things, which thine eyes have seen.

22Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.




i wasnt raised in the temple like my father, but i made a point as directed by the lord to read where i came from. this is how i know i am jew.the lord told me that i am. i see christ all over in the ot.

again if the ot ways for isreal is never ending why then did the pause occur for the gentiles as jonah preached and whole nation of gentiles was saved in the city of ninevah.

you need to look hard for the statements by david and moses on God's mercy and grace.

heres one when he sees the lord.


King James Version (KJV)


Exodus 34
1And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

11Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

12Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

19All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

20But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

21Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

22And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

23Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

24For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

25Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

26The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

30And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

31And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.

32And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.

33And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.

34But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.

35And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

note vs 7 and 9 and in genesis it says noah found grace in the eyes of God.hmm so grace wasnt around then nor taught. so how could moses understand grace when he taught the pentateuch?

#17 jason

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 04:10 PM

and this one finnally that i meant earlier to post from jeremiah 31.

this one seems to say that the isreali people will be under a new covenant he clearly states the old is done away with.hmm

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more



interesting. now then i know what grace is. i want to know what the tribulation saints or whomever refuses the mark of the beast is. will they come to the lord by the law or by grace? and what specifically does the 144k preach? is not told in the bible.

#18 Teejay

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:58 PM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1308093031' post='72911']
and this one finnally that i meant earlier to post from jeremiah 31.

this one seems to say that the isreali people will be under a new covenant he clearly states the old is done away with.hmm

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more



interesting. now then i know what grace is. i want to know what the tribulation saints or whomever refuses the mark of the beast is. will they come to the lord by the law or by grace? and what specifically does the 144k preach? is not told in the bible.
[/quote]

Jason, I want to postpone answering you. If Fred brings his Pastor for me to debate, I think most of your questions will be answered. If not, I will resume with you and answer your questions.

I would like to ask you a question or two:

Why do you think God gave Israel the strange ritual of the cutting off of the foresckin?

Will the "nation" of Israel ever stop circumcising? Please understand that presently, Paul warns us not to get circumcised (as a religious ritual).) Circumcision for medical purposes is okay. To be clear, when God comes back to Israel to give them their kingdom will they be required to circumcise?

TeeJay

#19 jason

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:05 PM

there a disease in the new age of sin free and cursed free earth?

if so when was death not done away with. why would God require men to do that after the final doing away with satan?

circumision was a setting apart for the jews as was the diet to show the heathen that his people were unique as no other culture near the levant did that.

i will ask you this why then would isreal need the circumision in the millenium? for what purpose if the isrealites who are perfected in christ(remember all of them die and if you doubt why then does the book of revalation describe them all in heaven(those that are to reign with christ).

and uh i will say this. i doubt god would blot out a christian for celebrating the passover and feasts voluntarily. or channukah which christ celebrated per john 10:22. aka feasts of dedication. that is a talmudic holiday in rememberance the 8 day purification of the temple once it was freed from antiochus ephinese the IV.

#20 Teejay

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 10:10 AM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1308099935' post='72919']
there a disease in the new age of sin free and cursed free earth?

if so when was death not done away with. why would God require men to do that after the final doing away with satan?

circumision was a setting apart for the jews as was the diet to show the heathen that his people were unique as no other culture near the levant did that.

i will ask you this why then would isreal need the circumision in the millenium? for what purpose if the isrealites who are perfected in christ(remember all of them die and if you doubt why then does the book of revalation describe them all in heaven(those that are to reign with christ).

and uh i will say this. i doubt god would blot out a christian for celebrating the passover and feasts voluntarily. or channukah which christ celebrated per john 10:22. aka feasts of dedication. that is a talmudic holiday in rememberance the 8 day purification of the temple once it was freed from antiochus ephinese the IV.
[/quote]

Jason,

The first covenant that God made with Abraham was the Covenant of Grace: “[Abraham] believed in the Lord, and He [God] accounted it to him for righteousness” (Gen. 15:6). Paul used this centuries later as his argument for grace: “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something of which to boast…. For what does the Scripture say” ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness’” (Rom. 4:2-3). This covenant was the first covenant that God made with Abraham. NO WORKS WERE REQUIRED BY ABRAHAM! In fact, God put Abraham to sleep.

The second covenant was the covenant of Circumcision (or works or the law). Years later, God insisted that Abraham circumcise himself (OUCH!). Why? Circumcision was a sign of the agreement between God and Abraham’s descendants who would become known as people of the Circumcision (Jews): “and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me [God] and you [Abraham and your descendants]” (Gen. 17:11).

Circumcision, although symbolic, was not optional for the Jews. God almost killed Moses because he did not circumcise his son born to Midionite wife Zipporah: “And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment that the Lord met him [Moses] and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah [Moses wife] took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, ‘Surely you are a husband of blood to me!’ So He let him [Moses] go. Then she said, ‘You are a husband of blood!’ because of the circumcision” (Ex. 4:24-26)

Now having said all this, why this unusual circumcision ritual? Understand that the symbolic laws (such as circumcision) were neither moral nor immoral, were for the Jews only, and pointed to Jesus. Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh. Jesus Christ (God the Son) became flesh, and was cut off. God told Abraham: “He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an EVERLASTING covenant” (Gen. 17:13). God had also said to Abraham, “in you all nations will be blessed" (Gen. 12:3), and in Abraham, because Jesus came from Abraham’s loins, and from David’s body (2 Sam. 7:12). Thus, the Covenant of Circumcision pointed to Jesus Christ, who “became flesh” (John 1:14) and then the “Messiah” was “cut off” (Dan. 9:26; Mat. 27:46, 50). The Jews, called the Circumcision, the people of the Covenant of Circumcision, were themselves cut off (Rom. 11:20, 22). So, too, Christ, the King of the Jews (Mat. 2:2; 27:11), became flesh and was cut off. Thus the circumcision of Jesus Christ according to the Law on the eighth day (Luke 2:21) foreshadowed the very purpose of His coming. Consider also that God used the Hebrew word silver when He said to Abraham, “he who is bought with your money [silver].” Then recall two things: that the High Priest bought Christ with “thirty pieces of silver” from Judas (Mat. 26:15); and also that Jesus was born a Jew. Thus, throughout all history, He was the One both “born in your house [Israel] and… bought with your silver.” Thus the Covenant of Circumcision uniquely pointed to Christ.

And we must also realize that the Covenant of Circumcision represented the law. Jesus Christ became flesh and voluntarily was circumcised and baptized thus putting Himself under the very covenant that He made with Abraham. While Abraham’s descendants were unable to keep the Covenant of Circumcision (the law), Jesus Christ did keep the law perfectly and fulfilled the covenant which Abraham and the Jews could not keep. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to buy a car and have the car salesman come around to your side of the table and pay for the car? But in reality, that is exactly what God did for us.

Also notice that circumcision is an EVERLASTING covenant. Jason, I am going to let you do some research. Jesus and Peter and all of his followers were circumcised on the eighth day. When they did this, they automatically came under the Abrahamic Covenant of Circumcision or the law. After the Cross, did Peter, James, John, or any circumcision apostle ever teach that circumcision was now null and void? Hint: Read the purpose of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15.

TeeJay
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