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Would You Share Your Thoughts On The Statue Dream Of Daniel Chapter 2?


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#1 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 09:26 AM

Thanks.

#2 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 07:16 PM

I believe the gold head of the image represents King Nebuchadnezzar and his Babylonian kingdom that ruled over the entire earth, then the silver represents King Cyrus and his Persian kingdom that ruled over the entire earth after Nebuchadnezzar, then the bronze represents King Alexander and his Grecian kingdom that ruled over the entire earth after Cyrus, then the iron legs represent the coming world leader and his kingdom thats going to be set up after us believers are raptured out of the earth, and then the iron and muddy toes mixed represents the apostate jews and ungodly gentiles who will come together for this final kingdom ruled by this future world leader. These will all be destroyed by the coming of the Lord and the setting up of his kingdom represented by the stone destroying this statue. Thats my view. Hope it was helpful.

#3 ikester7579

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 08:58 PM

I'd give it a shot except one of my main typing fingers got cut so I can barely type. In a day or 2 maybe.

#4 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 10:35 AM

Here's my current view: Babylon -> Medo-Persia -> Greece -> Rome.


It seems to make the most sense that the stone is the FIRST coming of Christ (Jesus as the Rock). After all, isn't this really the beginning of the new covenant?


Definitely just two cents worth...


Fred

#5 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 09:45 AM

Here's my current view: Babylon -> Medo-Persia -> Greece -> Rome.


It seems to make the most sense that the stone is the FIRST coming of Christ (Jesus as the Rock). After all, isn't this really the beginning of the new covenant?


Definitely just two cents worth...


Fred


The reason I don't hold the widely held view that the legs and feet represent Rome is because the Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Macedonian empires had authority over all nations, peoples, and languages and Rome never conquered Ireland, upper Scotland, the greater part of Germany, or Babylon. It was not a world empire as the other three, but the future empire which I believe is represented by the legs and feet will be just that. Just something I thought I'd point out.

#6 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:31 AM

The reason I don't hold the widely held view that the legs and feet represent Rome is because the Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Macedonian empires had authority over all nations, peoples, and languages and Rome never conquered Ireland, upper Scotland, the greater part of Germany, or Babylon. It was not a world empire as the other three, but the future empire which I believe is represented by the legs and feet will be just that. Just something I thought I'd point out.

The Macedonian Empire most certainly did not hold authority over all. It didn't hold authority over Rome for one.

Having written a textbook on Ancient History, I would have to say that Fred's idea seems to mesh... what I don't think it meshes with is scripture as the rock is said to put an "end to all these kingdoms and it itself will rule to time indefinite".

#7 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 05:45 PM

The Macedonian Empire most certainly did not hold authority over all. It didn't hold authority over Rome for one.

Thank you for the information. I'll have to research more and come back with some new thoughts.

#8 MamaElephant

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:08 PM

Could the legs be Rome and the feet be a world power that has yet to come on the scene?

Thank you for the information. I'll have to research more and come back with some new thoughts.

Thank you brother. :blush:

#9 MamaElephant

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 10:49 AM

Here's my current view: Babylon -> Medo-Persia -> Greece -> Rome.


It seems to make the most sense that the stone is the FIRST coming of Christ (Jesus as the Rock). After all, isn't this really the beginning of the new covenant?


Definitely just two cents worth...


Fred

All of the Hebrew scriptures were fulfilled either before Christ came or when he came to earth? This is starting to make sense.

#10 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 08:52 AM

Could the legs be Rome and the feet be a world power that has yet to come on the scene? Thank you brother. :blush:

"And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, [that kingdom] will break in pieces and crush all the others.

Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay." (Daniel 2:40-41)

I think these are talking about the same kingdoms. It dosen't mention that the feet and toes are another kingdom, but just says "the kingdom". The other kingdoms each have their own metals, so when the feet, toes and legs include iron, it makes me think they're representing the same power or authority. Perhaps the legs to the toes represent different stages or different ways that this last kingdom will operate. I've heard someone point out that maybe the ten toes are the same as the ten kings talked about in Revelations. My theory on why two legs is maybe that they represent east and west. The east will join together and the west will join together and there will be some wars until they join together as one under the ten kings or toes. I'm just speculating but I thought those ideas sounded interesting, but I believe the legs and feet are talking about the same thing.

#11 AFJ

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 05:31 AM

mama,
Without getting into long drawn out explanations, don't you agree that the dreams of Daniel coincide with each other, and with John's vision in the revealation. I can site this, but it would take quite some time and resource. I did quite an extensive study of Daniel in Bible college, and it have reiewed it from time to time. Also, my view is not any different than the Baptist or full gospel view of the end times.

The dream in chapter 2 requires basic world history knowledge of the nations Israel has been subject to, starting the with the gold head--Babylon. In another dream later in Daniel Babylon is an eagle. The next nation--the silver chest and arms--is Medo Persia, which in another dream later is a bear with one it's paws raised. The bronze part of the statue is Greece which defeated Medo Persia. Then after is Rome. On this part of the statue, it is bronze mixed with clay, signifying the both the weakness and strength of Rome throughout time. Rome started out as a mighty empire, but diminished. It then became the Christian headquarters of the world in the dark ages, and then it's influence again diminished after the reformation.

The ten toes coincide with the ten kings that shall rise up in the last days to rule with the antichrist. They are also mentioned in Revelation, where the ten kings reign with the "beast" for a "time and times and half a time" or "42 months" which is one half of the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24). The messiah was "cut off" in the midst of the week, and the clock for physical Israel was shut off, util the "the times of the gentiles be fulfilled."

I think you will find this to be the basis for standard premillenial view, which says that Jesus will set up his 1000 year kingdom on Earth and will rule the nations "with a rod of iron." Satan will be bound, and after be loosed for a season "to deceive the nations." There will be a war and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire forever. And then Jesus will deliver the kingdom to his Father.

I would like ot add this though. I think the JWs put far to much centrality on the end times. Most of the Pauline epistles are very general as to Christs' return. The main jist of the teaching is "the blessed hope." That Christ will return to take us out of this world! I would never make a disagreement on end time theology a point of judgement as to whether one was a true Christian. But to make it a central thrust of evagelism is error. Paul preached Christ, the crucifixion and ressurection, and that one must accept that Jesus was the Son of God. One must accept this and repent of sin to be saved. God will decide the manner, place, and time of our unltimate salvation.

#12 MamaElephant

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 08:31 AM

I would like ot add this though. I think the JWs put far to much centrality on the end times. Most of the Pauline epistles are very general as to Christs' return. The main jist of the teaching is "the blessed hope." That Christ will return to take us out of this world! I would never make a disagreement on end time theology a point of judgement as to whether one was a true Christian. But to make it a central thrust of evagelism is error. Paul preached Christ, the crucifixion and ressurection, and that one must accept that Jesus was the Son of God. One must accept this and repent of sin to be saved. God will decide the manner, place, and time of our unltimate salvation.

As the light has been getting brighter in my own mind and heart I can see that what you say is true. The JWs think that they are the true religion because they teach a lot of details regarding these prophecies and no one else does... Well, for one, Christians do have explanations for these things, and for another Christians don't presumptuously think that there is only one explanation and force that on everyone.

#13 Tubal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

There is no doubt as to the meaning of the dream.

Head of Gold was Nebuchadnezzar and his empire of Babylon.
Arms of Silver was Cyrus of Medo Persia
Abdomen of Brass was Alexander and the Greek empire.
The Iron legs was Julius Caesar and Rome

I'd also like to mention, Fred, that the rock cannot be the first coming because he establishes the kingdom on his return (the second coming).
I'm going to refer the people of this thread to a few videos I'd like you all to see explaining this prophecy.

here. http://www.evolution...?showtopic=5113

#14 Air-run

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

"And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, [that kingdom] will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay." (Daniel 2:40-41) I think these are talking about the same kingdoms. It dosen't mention that the feet and toes are another kingdom, but just says "the kingdom".



Chris - excellent reading of the text! I find that most interpretations interpret the toes as a separate kingdom distinct from the Roman empire - but the text explicitly says that the feet and toes represent one kingdom - only that the different materials represent different facets of the same kingdom.

The problem with a futurist approach is that if you accept that the legs and feet refer to the Roman empire, you must accept that the rock comes and the Kingdom is established during the reign of the Roman empire. However, since the Roman empire no longer exists, you either have to imagine that the Roman empire still exists in some vague form, or that the Roman empire will be revived in the future in order for the rock to come during the Roman empire. I think both of these scenarios have many problems.

The simplest way to read this is that the rock did come during the past Roman empire and the Kingdom was established. We know that Jesus came during the Roman empire - and it seems very clear to me that the Kingdom was established.

John the Baptist said "repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand."

Jesus said "the Kingdom is within your midst."

When Jesus ascended to the Father's side, he was seated above all power and authority - he was crowned King. The futurist asserts that Jesus' position of authority and honor did not establish the Kingdom - but that Jesus must be sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem to initiate the Kingdom. However, Acts 2:29-36 shows that the resurrection and ascension of Christ were the fulfillment of Jesus promise to David that one of his descendants would sit on his throne. The throne of David was merely a physical representation of the throne of God. Jesus ascended to sit on the real thing. The result of Jesus' ascension is that he is Lord of all.

Compare this to Daniel 7:13-14. It is during the reign of the fourth beast (the fourth kingdom - same as the legs and feet of Daniel 2) that the son of Man comes with the clouds up to the Ancient of Days and is given a kingdom. Contrary to the typically held belief that this is referring to Jesus' second coming, the text says Jesus travels UP, not DOWN. This is a reference to Jesus ascension - not his second coming.

I've just gone through a whirlwind revolution of my previously held beliefs on this subject. If it helps anybody get a better idea of where I'm coming from, I've recently written 3 articles on the subject on my blog:

This article deals with Daniel 2:




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