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Chriscarlascio Says That Christ Saves Everyone...


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#1 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:33 PM

If this is true, why dosen't he save everyone? Well he does. The idea that he dosen't is in not found in scripture and the idea that he does is in fact found in scripture.

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)

Especially of believers does not mean, exclusively for believers. For the believers:

"For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thess. 4:15-18)

Jesus Christ dieing for our sins, being entombed, and roused the third day will save everyone. Even the unbelievers, when they come face to face with him and can no longer disbelieve. There is no eternal torment or never ending fire.

"soil are you, and to soil are you returning" (Genesis 3:19)

Just the death and sin that Christ saved us from which will one day be fully destroyed.

"The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:26)


How then are these scriptures to be understood? Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

#2 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:03 AM

How then are these scriptures to be understood? Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

First you have to understand who's in view. Its nations at that time, not people of all times.

"Now, whenever the Son of mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory, and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids. And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left" (Matt.25:31-33)

The word eternal in the Greek is aion and does not mean forever. Here's an article that will hopefully explain more: The Eons

Think about these verses and consider that the verses your reading eternal torment into, aren't talking about an eternal buring torment:

Romans 5:18,19: As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life’ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous.

Romans 11:32: God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

Romans 11:36: Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all.

1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28: As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.


Ephesians 1:3,11: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.

1 Timothy 4:10: We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.

About eonian (eternal) fire. Here is a good article: Eonian Fire and Judging

A Reply to "Universalism Refuted"

This book really covers the question, what is evil?The Problem of Evil

Here's a good book on death and judgement: Death and Judgement

Or human destiny: Human Destiny

These articles just cover all the important details that would take a while to type up. I believe they completely agree with scripture and if someone finds some inconsistencies, please let me know.

#3 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 04:25 AM

Thank you. About Aion: what about "time indefinite" or "indefinitely lasting"?

#4 Salsa

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 04:57 AM

So when the serpent told the woman "You will not surely die" he was actually telling the truth?

Or could it be the same old lie, in a different form?

I dunno Chris, I've heard this stuff before, just as I've heard other doctrines that have a similar "gospel" message (and what good news it must be for some people), but it really doesn't sit well with me. God made us in his image, and with that we have an inherrant sense of justice.

Mercy and grace is also included in our inherited nature. We feel good when we see someone responds to a kindness they don't deserve and are filled with joy when they repent in response to this.

When, on the other hand, we see someone who murders, torments, cheats, steals and tortures others, getting off scott free, we don't feel much like rejoicing. There is something still within us that enables us to understand God's nature and His feelings towards these things.

Now you might say, as I am sure you will, that universalism doesn't mean that the unrepentant are simply let off the hook. But if they are allowed to partake in the eternal nature and kingdom promised to the faithful, then the entire Gospel is pointless. God could just have told Adam from the beginning that he was forgiven and no one would have to suffer any more.

God being merciful to "all men" does not mean that all men reap the benefit of his grace. When God tells us that his Word will not return void, he compares it to the rain and snow falling on "all soil". He does this in order to produce a harvest, but at the same time he makes it clear to us through this parable that the same rain will also produce weeds. Not weeds that will be gathered into his barn, but weeds that will be burned.

The doctrine of universalism is a lie. It is a lie from of old.

#5 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 05:24 AM

Thanks for weighing in. This teaching is all new to me. I found it in an old book prior to seeing it from Chris.

What of this scripture then? "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Matt. 12:31

#6 Teejay

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 09:57 AM

First you have to understand who's in view. Its nations at that time, not people of all times.

"Now, whenever the Son of mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory, and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids. And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left" (Matt.25:31-33)

The word eternal in the Greek is aion and does not mean forever. Here's an article that will hopefully explain more: The Eons

Think about these verses and consider that the verses your reading eternal torment into, aren't talking about an eternal buring torment:

Romans 5:18,19: As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life’ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous.

Romans 11:32: God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

Romans 11:36: Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all.

1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28: As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.


Ephesians 1:3,11: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ . . . Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.

1 Timothy 4:10: We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.

About eonian (eternal) fire. Here is a good article: Eonian Fire and Judging

A Reply to "Universalism Refuted"

This book really covers the question, what is evil?The Problem of Evil

Here's a good book on death and judgement: Death and Judgement

Or human destiny: Human Destiny

These articles just cover all the important details that would take a while to type up. I believe they completely agree with scripture and if someone finds some inconsistencies, please let me know.


Chris,

If Hillary and Bill get into heaven, then heaven will be like hell. You are confusing the judgment of nations which Jesus Christ will do when He comes back to Israel and sets up His earthly kingdom and sits on King David's throne. Nations that have persecuted Israel will be set on His left (position of dishonor) and those who have blessed Israel will be set on His right (position of honor). This has absolutely nothing to do with individual salvation.

Your universalism can be rebutted wih one verse: "No man comes to the Father except through Me."

TeeJay

#7 Fred Williams

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:41 PM

Posted ImageChrisCarlascio , like most all false doctrines, this is a ploy by Satan to give people an excuse to not witness. The context in the verses cited is that everlasting means forever. Consider the contrast to eternal life in heaven in Romans 2:5-9. I'm sure you would agree that eternal here means eternal, forever. But if you were to be consistent with your argument, then it really doesn't mean eternal? Why are you picking and choosing when eternal means eternal, and when it doesn't? You are only picking against "forever" as it applies to unbelievers, because you feel you need to be "nicer" than God. Your "niceness" lacks justice, and in the end is no different than approving that an unrepentant child molester walk the streets. This is a very dangerous doctrine you teach (Isaiah 5:20).


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#8 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 03:26 PM

Thank you. About Aion: what about "time indefinite" or "indefinitely lasting"?

Your welcome. Aion does not have the idea of "endlessness" behind it. It means a duration or period of time.
Here's a book: The Eons
And a seperate article: The Living God and the Eons

What of this scripture then? "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Matt. 12:31

The sin will not be pardoned only within the present eon and the coming eon, not beyond. This supposition is inferred from the words, “neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.” Following the coming eon, the penalty which formerly had applied to this misdeed will then be rescinded. Those sinners will then be pardoned, so that, at the consummation, they may finally be saved. Here's more information: Overwhelming Grace, and "Unpardonable" Sin

So when the serpent told the woman "You will not surely die" he was actually telling the truth?

Why do you believe, I don't believe people die? "For soil you are, and to soil you shall return" (Genesis 3:19). Christ "alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). Everyone else is dead, which is what the serpent said would not happen.
What is Death

When, on the other hand, we see someone who murders, torments, cheats, steals and tortures others, getting off scott free, we don't feel much like rejoicing. There is something still within us that enables us to understand God's nature and His feelings towards these things.

Perhaps these are your feelings? I was a murderer (I hated many people), I stole things all the time (literally), I cheated on my girlfriend, I tormented others (made fun of them so that they cry), but do you know what? "Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15). I learned that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and raised to life three days later and I despised every last thing I ever did like that.

God could just have told Adam from the beginning that he was forgiven and no one would have to suffer any more.

Why would he do that? "God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)

God being merciful to "all men" does not mean that all men reap the benefit of his grace.

Why not? "As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

The doctrine of universalism is a lie. It is a lie from of old.

What does "universalism" teach? I wouldn't call myself a "universalist". I would simply say:

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)

You are confusing the judgment of nations which Jesus Christ will do when He comes back to Israel and sets up His earthly kingdom and sits on King David's throne. Nations that have persecuted Israel will be set on His left (position of dishonor) and those who have blessed Israel will be set on His right (position of honor). This has absolutely nothing to do with individual salvation.

That is what I said?

Your universalism can be rebutted wih one verse: "No man comes to the Father except through Me."

All men will come to the father through Christ.

Consider the contrast to eternal life in heaven in Romans 2:5-9. I'm sure you would agree that eternal here means eternal, forever. But if you were to be consistent with your argument, then it really doesn't mean eternal? Why are you picking and choosing when eternal means eternal, and when it doesn't? You are only picking against "forever" as it applies to unbelievers, because you feel you need to be "nicer" than God.

Aiõnios would still not mean forever as it is here in Romans 2:5-9.

Your "niceness" lacks justice, and in the end is no different than approving that an unrepentant child molester walk the streets. This is a very dangerous doctrine you teach (Isaiah 5:20).

When did I call a child molester good? Like your implying by posting Isaiah 5:20. It's a good thing that God will save him and change his ways.

I recommend you guys check out this website. I'm not positive about everything they say, but they have scriptural support for all of it. It'd help if you got a grasp of where I'm coming from. Concordant Expositions

#9 Teejay

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 05:56 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1312526004' post='73760']
How then are these scriptures to be understood? Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
[/quote]

ME and Chris,

I don't know if many people on this thread know exactly what Chris is into. It's called Universalism where everyone is going to heaven, eventually. There's been a resurgence of this lately due to Christian parents losing their children to atheism through the atheist professors in most colleges. We are losing about 75 to 80 percent of our children. I have some dear Christian friends who sent their children to college and now both kids are atheists. In desperation, the wife read about Universalism and started believing it. After all, if Unviersalism is true, then her sons are not "eternally" lost afterall. But I finally convinced her that she had better do her darndest to rescue them here and now.

But that's what beliefs like this do. They lull people into a false sense of security--there is no hell. The Mormons baptize for the dead (no eternal damnation). The Catholics have Purgatory. And it's been a while since I looked at the JW's. Perhaps ME can fill us in on them? Most false beliefs deny the deity of Jesus and the existence of eternal hell. Calvinism is guilty as well, because why witness if God has already predestined who will go to hell and who will not.

Chris, I am going to post some informatin I wrote and collected on your belief system when I was witnessing to my friends. Could you please let us know what "exactly" you believe so that we are not shooting at a moving target and more importantly, we will not set up any straw-horses against you.

I'm not glad that you believe what you believe but I am glad that you are here. Christians need to be educated on Universalism.


UNIVERSALISM

What is universalism? Universalism is the teaching that all people will be saved. Some believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ that all will ultimately be reconciled to God. Others believe that all will go to heaven sooner or later, whether or not they have trusted in or rejected Jesus Christ as their Savior during their lifetime. And this universal redemption will be realized in the future where God will bring all people to repentance. This repentance can happen while a person lives or after he has died and lived again in the Millennium Kingdom (as some “Christian universalists” claim) or some future state. Additionally some Universalists, of the extreme camp, maintain that even Satan and his demons will be reconciled to God.

Nevertheless, both facets of universalistic belief are in serious error. People will suffer eternal damnation (Rev. 14:11) and the demonic forces have no redeemer. But, in my opinion, though universalism is a grave error, holding to the idea that all will be saved in itself does not automatically make someone a non-Christian. But while this false belief does not negate the salvation of the Christian, it provides a stumbling block to the unsaved who are led to believe in a second chance after death.

“And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Rev. 14:11

Validity of Universalism

How should a Christian determine the validity of these two beliefs? Do we need to pray about it? Do we need to wait for a word from the Lord? Do we need to consult a prophet? The answer to all three questions is a resounding, “No!”

Jesus Christ proclaimed that He “is the truth” (John 14:6). And truth is non-contradictory and therefore can’t include falsehood. Something can’t be both true and false at the same time and in the same way. Any teaching, prophecy, belief, or testimony that contradicts God’s word can’t be true. Even the laws of logic, and especially the Law of Non-contradiction, mandate that something can’t be both true and false at the same time and in the same way.

Therefore, both facets of universalistic beliefs are in serious error. God says that people will suffer eternal damnation (Rev. 14:11) and the demonic forces have no redeemer, for nowhere in the Bible does it say that God died for anyone other than men. Though universalism is in grave error, there are some Christians who have unwittingly bought in to this false belief. And in the past few years, there seems to be a resurgence of this belief. And this can be attributed to the increasing number of college graduates (from Christian homes) who leave college as atheists. Statistics show that we are losing three out of four of our children to the atheist college professors. Sadly, most of the ground work for relativism has already been laid in high school. Parents of these lost children are easy targets for Satan who convinces them, “not to worry,” for Jesus Christ will eventually save their children.

However, there are those within the universalism camp (who claim to be Christians) who also deny the doctrine of the Trinity and in doing so deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They also deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. Usually, these denials are held by Unitarian Universalists, though others who are not of the Universalist camp also deny the Trinity. When one denies the deity of Jesus Christ, one is in the same camp as a Mormon or a Jehovah Witness. Denying the deity of Jesus Christ, by definition, puts one in a false religious belief system. Christianity hinges on the deity of Jesus Christ—the Foundation. When the Foundation is removed, salvation has nothing on which to stand.

Is There a Church of Universalism?

There is no official “Universal Salvation Church” denomination. But there is a Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA). The UUA can be classified as non-Christian because it denies the deity of Jesus Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, etc.

It is not possible to lump all of Universalists into one tidy doctrinal category. Its adherents vary in belief. Some are Arian (God is one person and Jesus is a creation). Some are Trinitarian. Others even lean toward New Age concepts of man's divinity.

So, Universalism is not really a doctrine that identifies a group. Rather, it is a doctrine of different, even contradictory groups, who all claim Universalism.

Does God’s Word Really Mean What It Says?

Satan has not changed. He asked Eve, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?’” (Gen. 3:1). Satan knows that if he can convince a man to doubt God’s word, he has won. The cults are particularly guilty of using biblical words with non-biblical definitions. This is absolutely necessary among them in order to maintain some sort of internal consistency of theology. So too, with many Universalists. Hell can mean non-existence, after-life consciousness, or this present life on earth. Some Universalists believe that all punishment is accomplished here on earth, while others believe it is future with loss of rewards, and not physical punishment. The punishment in both groups is corrective and limited. It will last only as long, and only be as severe, as it takes to accomplish its corrective purpose—which is to bring all mankind to a state of holiness and happiness in obedience to God. Of course the problem with this is righteousness is not obtained through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice but on one’s own apart from Jesus Christ.
In Universalism, the word “eternal” means “without end” when it comes to salvation, but not when referring to damnation—even though the same word is used for both and in the same context (Mat. 25:46). Universalists divide history and the future into different “eons” or “ages” and assert that punishment is “age- or eon-lasting,” not eternal. The term “Son of God” is claimed by all groups as an accurate description of Jesus Christ; yet, to some it means a created being and to others it means God in flesh. Determining which belief is held by which Universalist is often difficult and requires digging.

Misrepresentation

Universalists often use emotional, negative terms to argue their position. For example, regarding the damnation of the unsaved, instead of saying that historic Christianity teaches that those who reject Christ will suffer eternal damnation, they say that historic Christianity teaches that “God can’t save everyone and wants to torture most of humanity forever.” Or, it is often implied that God will not torture people forever because “God is not a sadistic enough to send people to hell.” Such emotionally slanted language reveals a hostile bias against historic doctrines and is an unfair description of those beliefs. That Universalists resort to these tactics demonstrates their lack of unbiased objectivity and casts doubt on their teachings.

Conclusion

As you can see, Universalism covers a wide range of beliefs. Though belief in Universalism, in and of itself, does not automatically void salvation, it has the potential danger of lulling Christians into a false belief that they need not worry, i.e., their sons and daughters will eventually saved. But this life in not a dress -rehearsal. The writer of Hebrews warns, “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment” (Heb. 9:27).

TeeJay

#10 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 06:23 PM

Chris, I am going to post some informatin I wrote and collected on your belief system when I was witnessing to my friends. Could you please let us know what "exactly" you believe so that we are not shooting at a moving target and more importantly, we will not set up any straw-horses against you.

How are you going to post something about my belief system if your just now asking me what I believe? Just ask me a specific question and I will try to answer it, but I'm happy that you care though. Thank you for trying to help me and I hope we all come to a better understanding of the truth.

But that's what beliefs like this do. They lull people into a false sense of security--there is no hell.

This isn't true. Maybe for some. I'm working on a video right now about creation and the scripture to show to all my friends and my dad who don't believe this stuff. Why wouldn't I want to herald the good news of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection? Thats all I want to do.

“And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Rev. 14:11

I'll quote from the article I already posted, about this verse:

"Conversely, a good example of literal fire and death is given to us in the Unveiling, in the destruction of the great city of Babylon. It is only during the fall of Babylon that the worshipers of the wild beast and its image will be subjected to torment in fire and sulphur. These alone are concerned in this judgment. Though this may involve many individuals, together they comprise only a tiny percentage of all humanity. In the hour when judgment comes upon the city, a great conflagration will ensue. Once ignited, the fire of the city will continue to burn until it is “burned up” (Rev.18:8), when nothing but ashes remain.

We know that subterranean coal beds may smolder for centuries; that is, they burn with little smoke and no flame. But this could not be said of the ashes of the city! Hence no literal fumes are in view here, where we read that “the fumes of their torment are ascending . . . .” (Rev.14:11). “Fumes” is a figure of speech, as is “drinking of the wine” (of the fury of God) and “blended undiluted in the cup” (of His indignation) (Rev.14:10). Like literal fumes which are the product of fire, the destruction of Babylon which is the product of God’s judgment upon its inhabitants, will constitute the figurative “fumes”—that is, the associated evidence—which will be “ascending for the eons of the eons.” This “ascending,” since it is the ascending of figurative fumes, is figurative itself as well. Like smoke, which testifies to its existence when it ascends high into the air, the destruction and death which occurred at Babylon will be exceedingly widely known and attested to throughout the entire world, even “for the eons of the eons.”

“The ‘fumes . . . ascending for the eons of the eons’ (Rev.14: 11) is a figure of speech similar to the one used in Jude 7, ‘a specimen . . . [of] the justice of fire eonian. When sulphur and fire rained from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, the inhabitants were killed and the fumes ascended from the land (Gen.19:28). This event is well remembered. The Israelitish worshipers of the wild beast are the supreme sinners of mankind. They have no rest day and night while they are worshiping the wild beast and its image and shall be tormented until they die (Rev. 14:9-12; 16:2,8,9; 18:8), some of them by the blade (19:21). Their fate will be remembered through the eons of the eons.”[2]

The phrase “the eons of the eons” should not be viewed as if it were a proper noun, indeed, one which had exclusive reference to the “oncoming eons” (cp Eph.2:7). Though we find that this is ordinarily the usage of this phrase (e.g., Rev.11:15), it does not follow that this must always be its usage, or that this is its usage here, in Revelation 14:11 (or, in its companion passage, Revelation 19:3). Since the judgment of Babylon is concerned with this present earth, which will no longer exist during the final eon, the plural word “eons” here must refer to a period which includes the remainder of the present eon and at least a portion (if not the entirety) of the coming eon, the “millennium.”

In order for something to become present “for [i.e., into] the eon” it need not have been present throughout all its preceding portion, nor is it necessary for it to continue on until its consummation. Instead, it need only continue on into its future. Since, then, in Revelation 14:11, “eons” is plural, and since the present eon, at this juncture, will be nearing its consummation, the reference must be to the present eon (to its brief remainder) as well as to the coming eon.

Another important consideration is that of the words “their torment.” As they appear here, they constitute a metonymy or figure of association. This figure may also be classed as a figure of omission. Such figures may always be made literal by the insertion of an explanatory phrase. The words “their torment” point us to the ellipsis, or figure of omission. The full thought is, “The fumes of their torment [which existed in the hour of their judgment prior to their death] are ascending for the eons of the eons.” Even if the fumes were literal, it would hardly follow, since these “fumes” continue to “ascend,” that the torment which is rightly associated with them must itself continue to exist!

“As figures arise from fervor of speech, and this is inclined to be terse, they are often accompanied by the omission (Ellipsis) of words. [Figures] of Association may be made literal by adding an explanatory phrase, as ‘the cup [containing the wine] of blessing’ (1 Cor.10:16).”[3] The omitted, and yet obvious, thought which is associated with that which has been expressed, constitutes the Ellipsis.

In Revelation 14:11, the “fumes” are the reminder of the fire which tormented these idolaters during the hour (not “the eon”!) of their judgment. Fire, however, soon consumes human bodies, even if the fire itself should continue to burn for a long span of time. The entire account is one of the “desolation” (Rev.18:17,19) of the most notable city of Babylonia in the conclusion of this eon (Rev.14:8-11). Even as “Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them . . . are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian” (Jude 7),[4] thus also Babylon will constitute such a specimen as well. “In one day shall her calamities be arriving: death and mourning and famine . . . . She shall be burned up with fire, for strong is the Lord God Who judges her” (Rev.18:8). In “one hour” the great city will be desolated, and this will mean death to her inhabitants (Rev.18:8; 18:9-24)." - James Coram, Eonian Fire and Judging

the word “eternal” means “without end” when it comes to salvation, but not when referring to damnation—even though the same word is used for both and in the same context (Mat. 25:46).

Why does the word's meaning change when it comes to salvation? Shouldn't we be consistent?

Determining which belief is held by which Universalist is often difficult and requires digging.

Why don't you just ask these "universalist's"? I don't call myself that and the word is not found in scripture.

“And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment” (Heb. 9:27)

What part about this verse says eternal torment? I agree with the verse.

#11 Teejay

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:00 PM

Chris,

Can you give us a brief of what "you" believe? If I am going to dialogue with you, I would like to know "exactly" what you believe. Then I will not be inadvertantly setting up a straw-horse argument against you.

And we can determine if you are a Universalist.

For exampel:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?

Do you believe in the Triune God?

Are there people in hell right now?

Will Satan and his demons be eventually saved?

TeeJay

#12 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 09:26 PM

Teejay,

And we can determine if you are a Universalist.

Call me what you want sir, but I don't know what that word means and I've never wanted to be called anything other than a believer in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?

Do you know that the word god can refer to other beings apart from the supreme Elohim of the universe? Satan is called the god of this eon (2 Cor.4:4). The term elohim is applied to arbiters in Israel (Ex.21:6; 22:8,9,9,28, judges) and to the Jews (Psa.82:6; John 10:34). Do not mistake me. I am not reasoning concerning the relation of Christ to His Father. I am merely showing the fallacy of this method of inference.

"And a voice came out of the cloud saying, 'This is My Son, The Chosen; Him be hearing.'" (Luke 9:35)

God said that about Jesus Christ. He called Jesus Christ "My Son". I believe Jesus Christ is God's son.

"for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Here is an article that goes more in depth: One God and One Lord

Do you believe in the Triune God?

What does "the Triune God" mean in your definition?

The Doctrine of the Triune God

Are there people in hell right now?

I don't believe so, nor do I believe there is a hell (place where people burn forever). The word hell is translated from three or four different (don't remember how many exactly) words that mean different things. I believe people that have died are dead (Genesis 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:16). As in, they do not live. If death was merely a transition to another life, why would scripture call it death and not a transition to another life?

What Is Death?

Will Satan and his demons be eventually saved?

"And He [Christ] is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:18-20)

"For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)

Why would you not include Satan and demons in the "all"? If it didn't include them, it wouldn't be "all" (it would be some) and God could never become "All in all."

Your brother in Christ,
Chris Carlascio

#13 Teejay

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 01:49 PM

='ChrisCarlascio' timestamp='1312604781' post='73807']
Teejay,


Call me what you want sir, but I don't know what that word means and I've never wanted to be called anything other than a believer in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.


Do you know that the word god can refer to other beings apart from the supreme Elohim of the universe? Satan is called the god of this eon (2 Cor.4:4). The term elohim is applied to arbiters in Israel (Ex.21:6; 22:8,9,9,28, judges) and to the Jews (Psa.82:6; John 10:34). Do not mistake me. I am not reasoning concerning the relation of Christ to His Father. I am merely showing the fallacy of this method of inference.

"And a voice came out of the cloud saying, 'This is My Son, The Chosen; Him be hearing.'" (Luke 9:35)

God said that about Jesus Christ. He called Jesus Christ "My Son". I believe Jesus Christ is God's son.

"for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Here is an article that goes more in depth: One God and One Lord


What does "the Triune God" mean in your definition?

The Doctrine of the Triune God


I don't believe so, nor do I believe there is a hell (place where people burn forever). The word hell is translated from three or four different (don't remember how many exactly) words that mean different things. I believe people that have died are dead (Genesis 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:16). As in, they do not live. If death was merely a transition to another life, why would scripture call it death and not a transition to another life?

What Is Death?


"And He [Christ] is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:18-20)

"For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)

Why would you not include Satan and demons in the "all"? If it didn't include them, it wouldn't be "all" (it would be some) and God could never become "All in all."

Your brother in Christ,
Chris Carlascio



Chris,

I’m having computer problems in that I get dumped off my computer before I can finish a post. I’m a dinosaur with computers. So I typed the following into word and just pasted it. I think I addressed all your issues. If not let me know.

Definition of Universalism

You don’t want to be called a Universalist. Why? I’m a Christian who attends a Baptist Church. I’m not a Baptist, but if you want to call me one, I’m not offended.

Random House Webster’s College Dictionary defines Universalism: “Doctrine that emphasizes the Fatherhood of God and the final salvation of all souls.” Universalist: “a member of a religious denomination advocating Universalism.”

Is Jesus God?

Why the equivocation? Surely you must realize that I’m not talking about Satan or Allah? I’ll ask again. Is Jesus the Christ God who is not a created being, but who existed eternally past as God the Son?

Triune God

My definition of the Triune God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Do you believe this?

Are There People In Hell Now?

Chris, why in the world do you not believe in hell? I don't like throwing a lot of Scripture verses at people, because whatever verses you give will be interpreted through one's worldview. But Jesus said that when Lazarus died, he "was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom [to await Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross]" (Luke 16:22). When the rich man died (physically), he woke up (in the spirit) "in torment in Hades" (v. 23). Sure sounds like Hell to me! Surely Jesus' parable here means something.

Can't we just define Hell and a place where people who do not want to live WITH God can go to be apart from Him? And from how Hell is described in Scripture, it's not a place with air conditioning. Surely by "death" you do not mean that we cease to BE? Surely? We are created an eternal spiritual beings with physical bodies. We experience physical death when we get old and our bodies cease to function. But this does not mean that we cease to exist. Samuel came from Abraham's bosom when summoned by King Saul's witch. The beggar was alive spiritually in Abraham's bosom. And the rich Lazarus was alive spiritually in Hades. I define spiritual death as existence apart from God.

In answer to your last question: “If death was merely a transition to another life, why would scripture call it death and not a transition…?” Because God did not know that there would be people who would not know when to take His word woodenly literal and when not to take it woodenly literal. For example: One of Christ's enemies said, "All the world is gone mad and is following Him [Jesus]." Does "all" mean "all" in this phrase? No. All the world did not go after Jesus. But when the Bible says, "God desires that "all" men be saved, we can safely interpret "all" to mean ALL. No? Now misinterpret this to mean God is going to save “all.” Most of the time we disappoint God in what He desires of us.

What Is Death?

Why do you have to ask this? When your physical body ceases to function, you die physically. Spiritual death is separation apart from God—Hell.

Scripture That Repudiates Universalism

• "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).

• "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).

• "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).

• "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just ( Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ez. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).

The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1

Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.
There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:



"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life, (John 5:24).

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

• "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

• "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

• These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

Is "forever and ever" without end?

The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"
Eternal - without end Eternal Damnation

The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great "No name calling" of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).


The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great "No name calling" of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.


"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).
"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great "No name calling" of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, "aionas ton aionon," which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is "aionas aionon" which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

Unquenchable Fire

Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)

Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The word "unquenchable" is "asbestos" in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."

The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. The word "unquenchable," which is "asbestos" in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt.

Will God Save Satan and Demons?

There are some universalists who believe that Satan and all of the demonic realm will be redeemed through the atonement of Jesus. Though I have found this is a minority view among the universalists, it is still worth addressing and correcting.

The demonic realm will not and cannot be redeemed. This simple reason is that they have no Redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer of humanity, not of the demonic realm.

There is a doctrine in theology called the hypostatic union. It is the doctrine of the two natures of Jesus. Jesus is both God and man. He was God so that He could appease God the Father with the sacrifice of infinite value. We need a sacrifice of infinite value because when we sin, we sin against an infinite God. Therefore our offense against Him has infinite consequences.

No mere human can please and satisfy an infinitely holy and righteous God. Only God Himself can satisfy the infinite requirements of His own holiness. Therefore, "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," (John 1:14). Jesus became our atoning sacrifice to turn away the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9) by bearing our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). Therefore, those who trust in Christ are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 6:23).

Likewise, the reason he needed to be a man was so that he could atone for the sins of mankind. He had to be made like one of us.
"For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." (Heb. 2:16-17).

The fallen angels do not have a sacrifice on their behalf. They do not have the infinite God becoming one of them and atoning for them. Therefore, the demonic realm will not be saved.

______________________
• John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

• Rom. 5:9 - "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

• 1 Pet. 2:24 - "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

• Eph. 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

• Rom. 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is ETERNAL life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Your brother in Christ as well, TeeJay

#14 AFJ

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 05:49 PM

Chris,
What do you do with this?

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


I don't see this saying anything about eons, or forgiveness in another age. It says they "will not" inherit the kingdom of God--that means ever.

#15 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 11:41 PM

What you all have to understand is that the scripture plainly says: "God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)

"[God] Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

So you guys are interpreting eternal torment (or eternal seperation from God) into the other scripture, because nowhere is this plainly said. It is plainly said that God will save all mankind. This will be through his son's death, entombment, and resurrection.

You don’t want to be called a Universalist. Why? I’m a Christian who attends a Baptist Church. I’m not a Baptist, but if you want to call me one, I’m not offended.

Why would you want to be called a Baptist or even a Christian for that matter when the scripture never calls us who believe in Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection those words. We are referred to as saints, but I don't like using that word because people will get the wrong idea. I'm no saint in that sense lol, but we are saints because of what Christ did.

Random House Webster’s College Dictionary defines Universalism: “Doctrine that emphasizes the Fatherhood of God and the final salvation of all souls.”

What is this "Fatherhood of God" business? The only way God becomes your father is when you believe the good news of Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection.

Surely you must realize that I’m not talking about Satan or Allah?

My point was, that even if the scripture refers to Christ as God (which it does), it does not follow, that you should assume he is his own father, "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Is Jesus the Christ God who is not a created being, but who existed eternally past as God the Son?

I believe Christ is God's son, not his father and that he was created.

"'Now this is saying [Jesus Christ] the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: ..." (Revelation 3:14)

"[Jesus Christ] Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, ..." (Colossians 1:15)

My definition of the Triune God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Do you believe this?

As Christ said, God the father is "the only true God" (John 17:3).
Christ is his image and the holy spirit is God's spirit. Just as it says. If his spirit were a living "person", why would Christ's spirit not be a living "person" and a member of this trinity?

Chris, why in the world do you not believe in hell?

Like I said, hell is an english word. It was translated from several different words. These words did not have the same meaning. Thats why they were different words. Please go through your Bible and where it says hell, find the original Greek word. Do this for all instances of hell and you will see how discordant the translators were. When they didn't understand what that particular word meant, they just said, must be our idea of hell and they translated it hell. None of the words indicate an "eternal" seperation from God. God has a plan, a beginning and an end to his plans and at the end he will be "the savior of all mankind" (1 Timothy 4:10).

Surely by "death" you do not mean that we cease to BE? Surely? We are created an eternal spiritual beings with physical bodies. We experience physical death when we get old and our bodies cease to function. But this does not mean that we cease to exist.


Thats what death is. The opposite of life.

Christ "alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16).

But Jesus said that when Lazarus died, he "was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom [to await Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross]" (Luke 16:22). When the rich man died (physically), he woke up (in the spirit) "in torment in Hades" (v. 23). Sure sounds like Hell to me! Surely Jesus' parable here means something.

The cambric of the priest and the purple of the king in the rich man's garments indicate Israel as the royal priesthood. His merry times are due to Israel's special blessings. The Pharisees looked down upon the sinners and publicans and gave them a place like that of Lazarus, outside, with the dogs, even as the prodigal was afar off with the swine. They had little more than the unclean aliens, who were called curs by the religious Jews.
The prodigal, the rich man, and Lazarus all are represented as being dead. The prodigal and the rich man show the nation in apostasy. Lazarus, being comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the faithful remnant. So long as the nation, as such, is dead, neither Lazarus nor the rich man can claim the blessings of the kingdom. The continued persecution and hatred of the Jews by all nations is aptly pictured by the flames in which one of them found himself. The place in Abraham's bosom is no less faithful a figure of the comfort which came to those who believed. Abraham's bosom cannot be literal, for he is dead and even were he alive the picture of thousands of believers in his literal bosom is preposterous. Since this is so it follows that all of the scene is figurative, for if Abraham is not literally there, neither is Lazarus nor the rich man.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

Samuel came from Abraham's bosom when summoned by King Saul's witch.

Verse 12 makes it apparent that the woman possessing the medium was quite surprised to see Samuel. She may have seen apparitions through the medium previously, but there was obviously a different character to this appearance. The fact of her surprise at the true appearance of Samuel suggests that her customary dealings with the dead should be discredited.

Samuel was a prophet, and Saul sought him, though the means were wrong. God Himself answered Saul by producing Samuel to speak to him. This man was truly Samuel in resurrection. He was standing up. This was not a vision conjured up by the woman, but Samuel himself resurrected from the dead by the power of God.

I'm not trying to doubt you, but does it say he came from Abraham's bosom? It sounds like God brought him back to life from the dead (no-life) for that moment.

For example: One of Christ's enemies said, "All the world is gone mad and is following Him [Jesus]." Does "all" mean "all" in this phrase? No. All the world did not go after Jesus.

But when God says all, I believe he means it. If he didn't, he couldn't become "All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). Which is the goal he is "operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11) towards.

But when the Bible says, "God desires that "all" men be saved, we can safely interpret "all" to mean ALL. No? Now misinterpret this to mean God is going to save “all.”

You should check the Greek for what your Bible is saying "desires". The Greek says that he "wills" it be so. God can't desire or wish for something. He is "the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,..." (Ephesians 1:11) Thats means God operates everything. He is in control of reality.

Why do you have to ask this? When your physical body ceases to function, you die physically. Spiritual death is separation apart from God—Hell.

I wasn't asking. That was a link to an article about "What is Death?" Did you read it to see where I'm coming from?

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).

• "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).

• "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).

• "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

I agree with all of this. Nowhere do these passages go against 1 Timothy 4:10. All of these verses are talking about Israel and their kingdom. After all this is said and done, God will save all mankind just as he says.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

Research the Greek for eternal. This is talking about the future judgement. Not forever.

It is what Jesus came here to save us from.

Jesus came to save us from our sin.

There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer.

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.

• "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

• "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

• These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

Is "forever and ever" without end?

The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"
Eternal - without end Eternal Damnation

Right, the problem is how your reading aion and its other variations. "Ages of the ages". A better word would be "durations". They have a beginning and an end.

The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever,"

I don't think thats the proper translation. It should be "eons of the eons". Which are periods of time that begin and end.

Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)

Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The word "unquenchable" is "asbestos" in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."

The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. The word "unquenchable," which is "asbestos" in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

This fire is unquenchable (won't dissipate on its own), but its not eternal or going to last forever.

The demonic realm will not and cannot be redeemed. This simple reason is that they have no Redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer of humanity, not of the demonic realm.

Where in the scripture is this plainly said?

"And He [Christ] is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:18-20)

"For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)

Your brother in Christ as well, TeeJay

I realize your trying to help TeeJay, but this is alot of text and typing and I don't have time to type out a long response to each point. As I said in the beginning I believe its clear that God will save all mankind and that he operates all things according to the counsel of his will. I'd recommend just reading this website to understand how I came to this understanding: Concordant Expositions, but I don't think were going to see eye to eye and that you're going to convince me that the scriptures teach "eternal seperation from God" for he saves "all mankind". God has a goal, a beginning and an end to his plans. At the end of this he will save all mankind as he says, so that he can be "All in all".
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#16 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 11:42 PM

I don't see this saying anything about eons, or forgiveness in another age. It says they "will not" inherit the kingdom of God--that means ever.

Your assuming it means "ever". God "is the savior of all mankind" (1 Timothy 4:10).

It does not follow that if we do not enjoy an allotment in God's reign, that we therefore will not live under its jurisdiction. Basileia (translated "kingdom") is simply the corresponding noun of the verb basileuoo (translated "reign"). It will be helpful for us to be aware that even as basileuoo literally means "reign" (used as a verb), thus also, basileia also literally means "reign" (used as a noun). The former means "to exercise a king's sovereignty;" hence, the latter means "the sovereign power pertaining to [a king's sovereignty]." It is only when basileia is used metonymically, as a figure of speech for "a realm ruled by a king" (or the territory or people thereof), that it should be understood in the common sense of the English "kingdom" (i.e., dominion). Yet it is on this basis, that of the common English usage of "kingdom," that it is claimed that those who do not "inherit the kingdom," must necessarily either be dead or in hellfire. Any such notion related to basileia here, however, is not only unwarranted but mistaken, for it contradicts the glorious truth that "the allotment of life eonian" (Titus 3:7) is an expectation in grace.

#17 AFJ

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 03:42 AM

Your assuming it means "ever". God "is the savior of all mankind" (1 Timothy 4:10).

No, I'm reading the scripture as it sits, and also aligns with other scripures. "...will not inherit..." means "will not inherit." "Will inherit" is the future tense conjugation of "to inherit." So if people are not going to inherit the kingdom in the future, when will they inherit it? "...will not inherit..." rules out the future and present.

It does not follow that if we do not enjoy an allotment in God's reign, that we therefore will not live under its jurisdiction. Basileia (translated "kingdom") is simply the corresponding noun of the verb basileuoo (translated "reign"). It will be helpful for us to be aware that even as basileuoo literally means "reign" (used as a verb), thus also, basileia also literally means "reign" (used as a noun). The former means "to exercise a king's sovereignty;" hence, the latter means "the sovereign power pertaining to [a king's sovereignty]." It is only when basileia is used metonymically, as a figure of speech for "a realm ruled by a king" (or the territory or people thereof), that it should be understood in the common sense of the English "kingdom" (i.e., dominion). Yet it is on this basis, that of the common English usage of "kingdom," that it is claimed that those who do not "inherit the kingdom," must necessarily either be dead or in hellfire. Any such notion related to basileia here, however, is not only unwarranted but mistaken, for it contradicts the glorious truth that "the allotment of life eonian" (Titus 3:7) is an expectation in grace.



In response to your reference of 1 Tim 4:10. Yes, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. There is enough power in the blood of Jesus to forgive every sin of every person that has ever live! But you can't take one scripture and use it against the whole of all scripture. You would have to ignore the fact that some names will not be in the book of life.

Revelation 20

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


I don't know how you can get any clearer. You have to take every verse on hell and condemnation and explain it into your systematic error.

Mark 16:6

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned


So here we have Jesus saving those who believe, but if he condemns someone (the father has committed all judegement to the Son Jn. 5:20), how does he save them? If we align the condemnation from Christ with the Great White Throne judgement, we must now interpret 1 Timothy 4:10 in light of this.

1 Timothy 4:10 can now align with 1 Jn 2:2

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


Jesus atoning sacrifice is enough for the sins of all mankind. It's not HIM that is the problem, it is those that will not BELIEVE (Mark 16:6)

I am really sorry you have decided to believe such an un-apostolic view on salvation. This heresy you are holding to flies in the face of many scriptures, and your attempt to explain them away one by one, by using a Strong's concordance or Greek lexicon doesn't work when you use true Biblical hermenuetics.

#18 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 05:37 AM

No, I'm reading the scripture as it sits, and also aligns with other scripures. "...will not inherit..." means "will not inherit." "Will inherit" is the future tense conjugation of "to inherit." So if people are not going to inherit the kingdom in the future, when will they inherit it? "...will not inherit..." rules out the future and present.

"those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:21)

It does not follow, however, if one should fail to endure and so, being disqualified to reign (2 Tim.2:12) should therefore have no allotment in God's reign (Gal.5:21), that he cannot possibly live under its jurisdiction. Our problem is probably Bible versions. Sometimes I wish I knew Greek and Hebrew. We could just be smart people reading Bibles with the real languages lol.

In response to your reference of 1 Tim 4:10. Yes, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. There is enough power in the blood of Jesus to forgive every sin of every person that has ever live! But you can't take one scripture and use it against the whole of all scripture.

But the verse dosen't say that. It says that he will save all mankind. Not that there is enough power in the blood of Jesus to save all mankind, but that the power in the blood of Jesus will save all mankind, especially believers. I'm not using it against the whole of all scripture. It agrees with the whole of all scripture.

You would have to ignore the fact that some names will not be in the book of life.


Those who do not believe in this life will be resurrected and judged at the time of the great white throne (Rev. 20:11-15). God will deal with them justly according to their deeds (Rom. 2:1-16). Then those whose names are not in the book of life will suffer the second death (Rev. 20:15). This, however, is not their final end, for they will be made alive at the conclusion of the eons when Jesus Christ abolishes the last enemy which is death (1 Cor. 15:25, 26). Then, they too will be justified (Rom. 5:18, 19), reconciled to God (Col. 1:13-20), and be made immortal (1 Cor. 15:22; Rom. 8:18-23; 2 Tim. 1:9-11). Then all will be subjected to God the Father and God will be All in all (1 Cor. 15:27, 28).

I don't know how you can get any clearer. You have to take every verse on hell and condemnation and explain it into your systematic error.

Or is it that every verse mentioning judgement or fire, you interpret as eternal seperation from God? Hell was translated from different words that mean different things. I'm not positive, but I think they were sheol, gehenna, and tartarus.

So here we have Jesus saving those who believe, but if he condemns someone (the father has committed all judegement to the Son Jn. 5:20), how does he save them?

By his death, entombment, and resurrection. The only difference is we were saved by faith in this and the unbeliever realizes the truth of this first-hand through the Great White Throne judgement.

If we align the condemnation from Christ with the Great White Throne judgement, we must now interpret 1 Timothy 4:10 in light of this.

They align just fine. I have no problem with judgement, but the Great White Throne judgement is not the end of God's work with men.

Jesus atoning sacrifice is enough for the sins of all mankind. It's not HIM that is the problem, it is those that will not BELIEVE (Mark 16:6)

I would agree that Christ is not a problem at all, but concerning our belief in his death, entombment, and resurrection:

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

I am really sorry you have decided to believe such an un-apostolic view on salvation. This heresy you are holding to flies in the face of many scriptures, and your attempt to explain them away one by one, by using a Strong's concordance or Greek lexicon doesn't work when you use true Biblical hermenuetics.

I'm sorry you feel my belief is unscriptural. I know that "[God] wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

He can do this because he is "operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).

#19 Fred Williams

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 07:27 AM



FMW: Consider the contrast to eternal life inheaven in Romans 2:5-9. I'msure you would agree that eternal here means eternal, forever.

Chris: Aiõnios would still not mean forever as it is here in Romans 2:5-9.



So you are saying believers don't spend eternity in heaven? Can't you see the inconsistency your view causes?



FMW: Your "niceness" lacks justice,and in the end is no different than approving that an unrepentant childmolester walk the streets. This is a very dangerous doctrine you teach (Isaiah 5:20).

When did I call a child molester good? Like your implying byposting Isaiah 5:20. It's a good thing that God will save him and change his ways.



Because you are claiming that child molesters, murders, thieves, etc who die unrepentant will share heaven with the rest of us. What value is Psalms 19:7: "The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul;"? From your POV, this verse is meaningless - anything unlawful is meaningless, hence, you unwittingly put good and evil on equal footing as far as salvation goes (Isaiah 5:20). Why should anyone worry about raping, murdering, stealing, if they are still going to be saved? As I said earlier, this is a demonic doctrine to get people to not only not witness, but also to not care about salvation. Yours is a ticket to do anything you want, since it doesn't matter in the end.

You try to get out of this by claiming that after they die, "God changes their ways" with really only one mistranslated scripture to backup your claim (1 Tim 2:4). You said "Our problem is probably Bible versions" and I couldn't agree more. I searched quite a few translations and could not figure out where you came up with your version of 1 Tim 2:4: "[God] wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." This is an extremely poor translation. Go to BlueLetterBible.com and look up the Greek for this phrase, and also compare and contrast between versions. Even the most liberal, pro-Calvinist translators agree this should be translated "desires" or "wants", not "wills". How is what you are doing any different than JWs or Mormons who find a verse that contradicts their view, and then make up their own definition of the word(s) of that verse, in spite of what the experts in that language say (often with no ax to grind since they are not believers)?

Finally, in reading through your posts, you seem to hang your hat mostly on 1 Tim 4:10 (I love the way AFJ stated it - your misinterpretation has led to systematic error). I agree Jesus is the Savior of all men, but not all men will accept this! I could also say, "Barack Obama is the president of all people of the United States", yet men are still free to renounce their citizenship.

How does the following verse fit in your theology:

(Matt23:37 [NKJV]) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Fred

#20 Teejay

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 08:47 AM

[quote name='ChrisCarlascio' timestamp='1312699302' post='73833']
What you all have to understand is that the scripture plainly says: "God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)

"[God] Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

So you guys are interpreting eternal torment (or eternal seperation from God) into the other scripture, because nowhere is this plainly said. It is plainly said that God will save all mankind. This will be through his son's death, entombment, and resurrection.


Why would you want to be called a Baptist or even a Christian for that matter when the scripture never calls us who believe in Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection those words. We are referred to as saints, but I don't like using that word because people will get the wrong idea. I'm no saint in that sense lol, but we are saints because of what Christ did.


What is this "Fatherhood of God" business? The only way God becomes your father is when you believe the good news of Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection.


My point was, that even if the scripture refers to Christ as God (which it does), it does not follow, that you should assume he is his own father, "the only true God" (John 17:3).


I believe Christ is God's son, not his father and that he was created.

"'Now this is saying [Jesus Christ] the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: ..." (Revelation 3:14)

"[Jesus Christ] Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, ..." (Colossians 1:15)


As Christ said, God the father is "the only true God" (John 17:3).
Christ is his image and the holy spirit is God's spirit. Just as it says. If his spirit were a living "person", why would Christ's spirit not be a living "person" and a member of this trinity?


Like I said, hell is an english word. It was translated from several different words. These words did not have the same meaning. Thats why they were different words. Please go through your Bible and where it says hell, find the original Greek word. Do this for all instances of hell and you will see how discordant the translators were. When they didn't understand what that particular word meant, they just said, must be our idea of hell and they translated it hell. None of the words indicate an "eternal" seperation from God. God has a plan, a beginning and an end to his plans and at the end he will be "the savior of all mankind" (1 Timothy 4:10).


Thats what death is. The opposite of life.

Christ "alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16).


The cambric of the priest and the purple of the king in the rich man's garments indicate Israel as the royal priesthood. His merry times are due to Israel's special blessings. The Pharisees looked down upon the sinners and publicans and gave them a place like that of Lazarus, outside, with the dogs, even as the prodigal was afar off with the swine. They had little more than the unclean aliens, who were called curs by the religious Jews.
The prodigal, the rich man, and Lazarus all are represented as being dead. The prodigal and the rich man show the nation in apostasy. Lazarus, being comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the faithful remnant. So long as the nation, as such, is dead, neither Lazarus nor the rich man can claim the blessings of the kingdom. The continued persecution and hatred of the Jews by all nations is aptly pictured by the flames in which one of them found himself. The place in Abraham's bosom is no less faithful a figure of the comfort which came to those who believed. Abraham's bosom cannot be literal, for he is dead and even were he alive the picture of thousands of believers in his literal bosom is preposterous. Since this is so it follows that all of the scene is figurative, for if Abraham is not literally there, neither is Lazarus nor the rich man.

The Rich Man and Lazarus


Verse 12 makes it apparent that the woman possessing the medium was quite surprised to see Samuel. She may have seen apparitions through the medium previously, but there was obviously a different character to this appearance. The fact of her surprise at the true appearance of Samuel suggests that her customary dealings with the dead should be discredited.

Samuel was a prophet, and Saul sought him, though the means were wrong. God Himself answered Saul by producing Samuel to speak to him. This man was truly Samuel in resurrection. He was standing up. This was not a vision conjured up by the woman, but Samuel himself resurrected from the dead by the power of God.

I'm not trying to doubt you, but does it say he came from Abraham's bosom? It sounds like God brought him back to life from the dead (no-life) for that moment.


But when God says all, I believe he means it. If he didn't, he couldn't become "All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). Which is the goal he is "operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11) towards.


You should check the Greek for what your Bible is saying "desires". The Greek says that he "wills" it be so. God can't desire or wish for something. He is "the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,..." (Ephesians 1:11) Thats means God operates everything. He is in control of reality.


I wasn't asking. That was a link to an article about "What is Death?" Did you read it to see where I'm coming from?


I agree with all of this. Nowhere do these passages go against 1 Timothy 4:10. All of these verses are talking about Israel and their kingdom. After all this is said and done, God will save all mankind just as he says.


Research the Greek for eternal. This is talking about the future judgement. Not forever.


Jesus came to save us from our sin.


Right, the problem is how your reading aion and its other variations. "Ages of the ages". A better word would be "durations". They have a beginning and an end.


I don't think thats the proper translation. It should be "eons of the eons". Which are periods of time that begin and end.


This fire is unquenchable (won't dissipate on its own), but its not eternal or going to last forever.


Where in the scripture is this plainly said?

"And He [Christ] is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:18-20)

"For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)


I realize your trying to help TeeJay, but this is alot of text and typing and I don't have time to type out a long response to each point. As I said in the beginning I believe its clear that God will save all mankind and that he operates all things according to the counsel of his will. I'd recommend just reading this website to understand how I came to this understanding: Concordant Expositions, but I don't think were going to see eye to eye and that you're going to convince me that the scriptures teach "eternal seperation from God" for he saves "all mankind". God has a goal, a beginning and an end to his plans. At the end of this he will save all mankind as he says, so that he can be "All in all".

Chris, 1 Tim. 2:4 does not say that God our Savior "wills" all men to be saved. My Bible reads that God our Savior "desires" all men to be saved. But most men do not want to have anything to do with Him. He can't grant men the freedom to love or reject Him and then force men to love Him. That's not possible, even for God. And it's not logical. God can't be illogical, for then He would deny Himself.

TeeJay




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