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For Whom Was God's Law Intended, Israel Only Or The World?


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#81 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 02:23 PM

Are you not judging me now?

Actually, I said not one thing.

#82 Calypsis4

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 02:25 PM

As am I. It is clear you are missing an important point. Isn't the job easier if the person is alive to be witnessed to? Personally I'd rather witness to a living person, who is alive because of a deterrent that kept him from a behavior that would have killed him. I think God's wisdom on this is impeccable.

Fred
PS. I agree realist is a better description than defeatist.


Thanks for the kindly worded response. 'Witness to a living person'? Perhaps we are mentally crossing wires here. Are you speaking of child molesters, h*m*sexuals, adulterers, etc. who, under Moses law were to be put to death? I suppose I should wait for you to clarify that point before I answer.

Best wishes.

#83 Teejay

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:41 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313420247' post='74153']
Have we forgotten that God is in control of all things? If he wanted Moses' law to apply to everyone then it would!
[/quote]

ME,

With respect, I would like you to think a bit about this post. God wants many things for us and wants us to obey Him. He "desires that all men be saved." But we don't. To have love, we must have the freedom to hate. And this applies to God as well. He has the freedome to hate. If God forced us to obey Him and His law, then we would not be obeying Him because we love Him but because He is forcing us to obey. And if God was not free to hate, then His love would be valueless. Now God is powerful enough to make me do anything He wants me to do. But that's not a love relationship.

My wife always makes sure I have a good breakfast in the the morning. She does this not because I force her to get out of bed and do it. She does it because she loves me. And I value her love because she is free to love other, but she loves me. My house has a door for her to leave anytime she wants. She elects to stay with me. God gave Adam and Eve a door out of the garden (the Tree of Knowledge). He did not fore them to obey Him.

Now contrast my wife with my brother's wife. My brother ate two meals a day. He loved a good breakfast. Shortly after he got married, his wife told him that she would get out of bed and make breakfast for him if he "really wanted her to do it." In other words, he would have to force her; she was not exactly volunteering. She would not do it out of love. My brother was hurt and told her to stay in bed and he would eat at a restaurant. For the next 30 years of their marriage she slep in.

So God wanted Israel to execute criminals for capital crimes but what he god was: "And will you profane Me among My people... killing people who should not die, but keeping people alive who should not live..." (Ezek. 13:19). God will not force us to obey Him. We must obey Him willing out of love.

TeeJay

#84 Teejay

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 04:32 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313420690' post='74154']
Romans 2:1 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
[/quote]

ME,

I have not read ahead to see if anyone else has responded to this, but I would like to. There is another thread that addresses whether we should judge. "Do not judge lest you be judged" is a cliche that will get you a standing O on Oprah. A standing O on Oprah should give Christians pause. When Jesus taught on this, He was talkng to hypocritical Pharisees who were sitting in the seat of Moses. They were authorized by God to judge Israel but they were unworthy to judge because many of them were guilty of the very sin or crimes (or greater crimes) for which they were judging the people. So God did not tell them to not judge. Rather He instructed them to "get the log out of their own eye [or get the sin out of their lives] first. But He did not tell them NOT TO JUDGE. He expeced them to not leave their brother with a speck in his eye. Jesus did not want them not to judge, but to "judge with righteous judgment."

Neither did Paul instruct us not to judge. He was parroting Jesus theme that we should not judge other people if we have the same or a greater sin in our lives. But Paul scolded the Corinthian church for not judging the smallest matter. "Don't you know you will judge angels," Paul admonished. Basically Paul was saying to them, "you're going to judge the world and angels even. So start practicing now." But to judge, we must know God's law. If we are ignorant of His law, then we are unequipped to judge. Most Christians will have to be put in remedial training classes before they can be judges at the Great White Throne.

Now understand that as individuals, we do not have authority to hold court and try criminals and punish them. God did not grant this authority to individuals. He granted this authority to governments. Paul writes that the government is to bring wrath and vengeance on the guilty. Even an evil government is carrying out God's ministry when it executes a convicted murderer who is guilty.

Now this does nt mean that individuals can't judge. Having raised daughters I can give this advise: If your daughter brings home a boyfriend dressed in black gothic clothes, his nose pierced, tattoos, unwashed, and smelling from smoking grass, you had better make a judgment. One can't live on Planet Earth and not judge. To witness, rebuke, or forgive, one must first judge. One can't accuse another of being judgmental without first judging. Only plants don't judge.

TeeJay

#85 Teejay

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 05:39 PM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1313442998' post='74168']
"Should they take you(sic) advice and just quit what they are doing?"

Why don't you even try to think about what others are telling you TeeJay? Quote me. Where did I ever say that we should stand aside and say or do nothing? I've repeatedly said in this discussion that Christians should speak, vote, and persuade others to not do evil things; that includes abortion, h*m*s*xuality, or any other dreadful sin listed in God's word. Don't you think that Jeremiah did what he could in that regard right down too the last day before Babylon destroyed Jerusalem? Of course he did. But unlike you, he was a realist. Since he COULD NOT persuade the government authorities to repent and not stop the flow of evil he yet continued to work on a private level to help those he could.

As far as what you said about stopping babies from being aborted, I am in favor of such a thing as you are.

Stop putting words in my mouth, please.

Best wishes.
[/quote]

Cal, I guess I am confused as to your position? I recall you telling me that our ship is sinking and we may as well just throw out life preservers. But my original argument is that if we had not ignored God's laws with punishment, perhaps the ship would not be sinking. I think we are on the same side but just disagree as to strategy.

Let's play pretend and put Jeremiah in America. He's on TV and even making a bus tour across the nation. Today, in America, would he be able to warn us of our impending doom? I think not. If he preached that we should put abortionists to death for killing a baby in the womb (Ex. 21:21, he would be told that the U.S. Supreme Court has overridden God's law on this. "It's a woman's right to choose," he would be told. If he taught that murderers should be swiftly executed, he would be corrected with: "I would rather have 10,000 guilty murderers go free that one innocent man be put to death." If he asked why kidnappers were not executed as commanded by God, everyone would deem him a very strange man. If he saw a g*y pride parade, he would reason that God had transported him back to Sodom and Gomorrah. If he spoke out against h*m*s*xuality, and he was in Colorado, he would be arrested and sent to sensitive training. If he asked why false witnesses in a murder trial were not put to death, no one would have the slightest idea what he was talking about. If he wondered why innocent babies were put to death instead the rapist father or the incestuous uncle, he would be laughed at. Absent God raining down fire and brimstone on a few cities, he would be the butt of jokes on Letterman and Leno.

Now, Cal, most of this ridicule and persecution would come from Christians. I know. Just try teaching a Bible class on this to a group of Christians in any church in America. You will think you stirred up a hornets nest.

The late great Christian apologist Dr. Norman Geisler falsely taught that God's law was for Israel only. I loved the man, because he was such a great debater against atheists. And I'm sure he's in heaven. But on this one point he was as wrong as he could be. He was rebuked by Dr. Greg Bahnsen of "The Great Debate" fame where he sliced and diced atheist Dr. Stein. If you haven't read it, I recommend it. Anyway, there is a rebuttal of Dr. Geisler by Dr. Bahnsen. I don't have the link at my fingertips, but I will post it for everyone to read. It is claimed by most theologicans that Dr. Bahnsen never lost a debate. I am reading all his articles one by one. He too is now with the Lord.

TeeJay

TeeJay













Cal,

#86 Teejay

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 05:57 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313443414' post='74169']
Actually, I said not one thing.
[/quote]

ME, Think about it. When someone tells me that I should not judge, I ask: is that your judgment? If they tell me that there is no such thing as truth, I ask, "Is that true." If they tell me that I can't be certain of anything, I ask, "Are you certain of that." If they say there is nothing absolute, I ask, Absolutely? And, believe it or not, there are people who argue that we should not argue. Where does all this illogical relativism come from? Atheist philosphers in our colleges. But all relativistic arguments defeat themselves. My grandson came home from college and proudly lectured me that there was no such thing as truth. I asked him if that was true? He started to answer and then went mute.

Just consider some of this. I know it is new to most Christians. But I think we are all learning here. Your challenges teach me as well.

TeeJay

#87 Teejay

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 06:13 PM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1313443537' post='74170']
Thanks for the kindly worded response. 'Witness to a living person'? Perhaps we are mentally crossing wires here. Are you speaking of child molesters, h*m*sexuals, adulterers, etc. who, under Moses law were to be put to death? I suppose I should wait for you to clarify that point before I answer.

Best wishes.
[/quote]

Cal, I imagine Fred will answer this, but I would like to clarify (since I originally stirred up this all up). The answer is all of the above and I posted a list of death penalty crimes that are moral for everyone on earth and not symbolic (for Israel only). Fred pointed out, and this can be verified, that most h*m*sexuals, for example, die very young from all manner of diseases. Moses and Solomon said that when the death penalty is swift and just, "Men will hear and fear and not act presumptiously." We have must less murder than we have adultery. This is because in America the death penalty for murder is enforced to some degree, while adultery is not enforced. If the death penalty for h*m*s*xuality was enforced, we would not have millions dying from AIDS say. I am guilty of adultery I'm ashamed to say. I have reflected on this crime, and I probably would not have chanced it if I knew I would be put to death swiftly if caught.

Dr. Bahnsen, in his rebuttal of Geisler pointed out that if the Gentiles were not under the Mosaic law, then how could they be condemned by it. Why would Jesus have to deliver us from a law we were not condemned by. Good question?

TeeJay

#88 Calypsis4

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:17 PM

Cal, I guess I am confused as to your position? I recall you telling me that our ship is sinking and we may as well just throw out life preservers. But my original argument is that if we had not ignored God's laws with punishment, perhaps the ship would not be sinking. I think we are on the same side but just disagree as to strategy.

Let's play pretend and put Jeremiah in America. He's on TV and even making a bus tour across the nation. Today, in America, would he be able to warn us of our impending doom? I think not. If he preached that we should put abortionists to death for killing a baby in the womb (Ex. 21:21, he would be told that the U.S. Supreme Court has overridden God's law on this. "It's a woman's right to choose," he would be told. If he taught that murderers should be swiftly executed, he would be corrected with: "I would rather have 10,000 guilty murderers go free that one innocent man be put to death." If he asked why kidnappers were not executed as commanded by God, everyone would deem him a very strange man. If he saw a g*y pride parade, he would reason that God had transported him back to Sodom and Gomorrah. If he spoke out against h*m*s*xuality, and he was in Colorado, he would be arrested and sent to sensitive training. If he asked why false witnesses in a murder trial were not put to death, no one would have the slightest idea what he was talking about. If he wondered why innocent babies were put to death instead the rapist father or the incestuous uncle, he would be laughed at. Absent God raining down fire and brimstone on a few cities, he would be the butt of jokes on Letterman and Leno.

Now, Cal, most of this ridicule and persecution would come from Christians. I know. Just try teaching a Bible class on this to a group of Christians in any church in America. You will think you stirred up a hornets nest.

The late great Christian apologist Dr. Norman Geisler falsely taught that God's law was for Israel only. I loved the man, because he was such a great debater against atheists. And I'm sure he's in heaven. But on this one point he was as wrong as he could be. He was rebuked by Dr. Greg Bahnsen of "The Great Debate" fame where he sliced and diced atheist Dr. Stein. If you haven't read it, I recommend it. Anyway, there is a rebuttal of Dr. Geisler by Dr. Bahnsen. I don't have the link at my fingertips, but I will post it for everyone to read. It is claimed by most theologicans that Dr. Bahnsen never lost a debate. I am reading all his articles one by one. He too is now with the Lord.

TeeJay

TeeJay

Cal,


Greg Bahnsen. Well, that explains your confusion. Geisler was much closer to the truth than Bahnsen. That man belongs to a branch of the Christian world that believes Israel and the church are the same thing. They are not. And excepting where those moral and spiritual teachings of the Law of Moses are repeated in the New Testament i.e. Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not commit adultery, etc. and other things related to morals, wisdom in finance, personal relationships, oaths, that are identical between Old and New Testament teaching, we are not obligated to Moses law.

The answer to the question is found in Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

I will say again that the believer in Jesus Christ is obligated by the Great Commission to convert the lost to Jesus but we have no command to convert society into a Christian state. There is no such command. If a country (like England, Scotland, America, etc) is/was to become 'Christian' it would be through revivals by means of the preaching of God's Word which converted millions of people and the influence of those converted would bring about a moral society. That...I am in favor of.

Still more explanation is that I and those like me will always speak favorably of, vote for, and promote those values in society which reflect biblical teaching. But if the government we happen to live under does not execute judgment according to God's law there is really not much we can do about it except to continue our witness on a personal and private level and persuade as many sinners and saints as we can to that which is right in God's sight.


What more needs be said? I am dead set against dominionist teaching which arrogantly assumes a calling for Christians which does not exist for the church and never did. IF that were true then we all might as well be Roman Catholics under a pope like Innocent III and take over the world. Phooey. That's the corruption of the church. In this regard the suffering anabaptists were right and the church state persecutors of those poor people were wrong; both catholic and protestant.

We are commanded to win souls. Can you say that you have personally won sinners to Christ and are making an honest attempt to bring them into the kingdom of God?

#89 Calypsis4

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:35 PM

Cal, I imagine Fred will answer this, but I would like to clarify (since I originally stirred up this all up). The answer is all of the above and I posted a list of death penalty crimes that are moral for everyone on earth and not symbolic (for Israel only). Fred pointed out, and this can be verified, that most h*m*sexuals, for example, die very young from all manner of diseases. Moses and Solomon said that when the death penalty is swift and just, "Men will hear and fear and not act presumptiously." We have must less murder than we have adultery. This is because in America the death penalty for murder is enforced to some degree, while adultery is not enforced. If the death penalty for h*m*s*xuality was enforced, we would not have millions dying from AIDS say. I am guilty of adultery I'm ashamed to say. I have reflected on this crime, and I probably would not have chanced it if I knew I would be put to death swiftly if caught.

Dr. Bahnsen, in his rebuttal of Geisler pointed out that if the Gentiles were not under the Mosaic law, then how could they be condemned by it. Why would Jesus have to deliver us from a law we were not condemned by. Good question?

TeeJay


It is God's eternal law...the law that existed BEFORE the law of Moses that sinners and/or gentiles are under. That law which is written upon the conscience according to Romans chapter two. Proof: no gentile was ever obligated to observe the Sabbath...either before or after Moses was given the law. That law was a covenant sign between God and Israel alone

Ex 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

If you think any gentile was ever obligated to observe the Sabbath then name him/her. The only possible exception were those who converted to the Jewish faith.

The Law of Moses is merely an extension of (a very special extension of) the eternal law of God in the same sense that the state constituion of Missouri, Alabama, or Maine are extensions of a higher law: the U.S. Constitution. All of those laws are in line with, but not exactly the same as the U.S. Constitution.

#90 jason

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:52 PM

funny, we ignore the fact that fornicating males tend (heteros) tend to like anal s@x done by women yet arent g*y at all? or do we forget that the military never has been a bastion of morality? how many times has the army had officers and ncos commit adultery? in the past and present?

cough we had a president in 60s do that. or what about the ucmj? in it in the old days sodomy(not just G*ys) was punishable by death,this meant oral s@x and any odd s@x seen in P*rn. yet i wonder how many times that was ignored. does it make it right.

jesus didnt come to save countries or make christian states but to save souls. if you all are that interesting in saving those like i was then be consistent

call for the death penalty for:
fornication
lying and anything on that list per romans 1.
or do YOU ALL NOT SEE THAT GOD inspired paul to write the scriptures and romans.


if God thinks those that do that list are all worthy of death then should we and call for such laws.

if not, dont pick on only G*ys when in the past we have hated blacks, G*ys, and at ton. i live in the south the old christians speak of the days in my county where whites went to one church and the blacks to another.

so God would just overlook that? so he blessed america when she was full of christian love that said dont mix the white with the black(yes some did teach that). the real churches didnt but i bet in my county those were few.there was one church that dared to invite all, no matter whose colors.


i wonder if any of the contra arguments actually have g*y neighbors and try to win them or just ignore them.

oh. this floridian was in school when prayer was around and the ten comandments and was taught creationism in school. yet then there was problems. racial riots.small reall small but the fights broke out.

#91 jason

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:19 PM

i wonder if anyone is aware of the occult link to S@xual immorality. most former G*ys that i know were into occult.hmm

so not killing witches?????????????? do you not know that demons can influence this? if so why would you all just ignore divination etc?? look to the readers i am not saying all G*ys are demonically influence but that some have dabled in withcraft and it does lead one to some wierd things.

its not uncommon for the lbgt to hate themselves.

#92 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:30 PM

I have reflected on this crime, and I probably would not have chanced it if I knew I would be put to death swiftly if caught.

I still would have done it.

Cal, I guess I am confused as to your position? I recall you telling me that our ship is sinking and we may as well just throw out life preservers. But my original argument is that if we had not ignored God's laws with punishment, perhaps the ship would not be sinking. I think we are on the same side but just disagree as to strategy.

Let's play pretend and put Jeremiah in America. He's on TV and even making a bus tour across the nation. Today, in America, would he be able to warn us of our impending doom? I think not. If he preached that we should put abortionists to death for killing a baby in the womb (Ex. 21:21, he would be told that the U.S. Supreme Court has overridden God's law on this. "It's a woman's right to choose," he would be told. If he taught that murderers should be swiftly executed, he would be corrected with: "I would rather have 10,000 guilty murderers go free that one innocent man be put to death." If he asked why kidnappers were not executed as commanded by God, everyone would deem him a very strange man. If he saw a g*y pride parade, he would reason that God had transported him back to Sodom and Gomorrah. If he spoke out against h*m*s*xuality, and he was in Colorado, he would be arrested and sent to sensitive training. If he asked why false witnesses in a murder trial were not put to death, no one would have the slightest idea what he was talking about. If he wondered why innocent babies were put to death instead the rapist father or the incestuous uncle, he would be laughed at. Absent God raining down fire and brimstone on a few cities, he would be the butt of jokes on Letterman and Leno.

Why are we asking about Jeremiah? Should we not ask what Jesus would do? Well, he was on earth among sinners. What did He do about it? What did He tell his disciples to do?

Jesus didnt come to save countries or make Christian states but to save souls.


ME, Think about it. When someone tells me that I should not judge,

I didn't tell anyone that they should not judge. Honestly. That is why the scripture was quoted without any comment on my part. I know that one of my faults is that I do tend to be judgmental of Christians when it comes to legalism or judging others. This is something for me to work on.

You along with the Spirit in you are free to interpret the scripture... I did not.

DO YOU NOT SEE ALL THAT GOD deems worthy of death? Did He not inspired Paul to write this?


If God thinks those sins are all worthy of death then should we and call for such laws?

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

#93 jason

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:35 PM

and doesnt that say that God gave them over to their lusts? isnt that in a sense a judgment. i have lived this. i knows what that is. romans 1 got me to repent. so i guess God didnt inspire that bible verse did he. the more i was in that sin the more i began to hate God, sure it wasnt large start but as i went that way, i had thoughts of God is just he made me that way and yet when i was convicted and ignored it i began to hate god slowly.


keep in mind i did all this while in church and claiming christ to know him!

#94 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:47 PM

and doesnt that say that God gave them over to their lusts? isnt that in a sense a judgment. i have lived this. i knows what that is. romans 1 got me to repent.

Good point.

#95 ikester7579

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:58 PM

funny, we ignore the fact that fornicating males tend (heteros) tend to like anal s@x done by women yet arent g*y at all? or do we forget that the military never has been a bastion of morality? how many times has the army had officers and ncos commit adultery? in the past and present?


So one sin now justifies another? Where is that in the Bible?

The main reason this sin is different because it goes against how God created us. Those who do s*x in ways they were not created to do are just as much to blame.

cough we had a president in 60s do that. or what about the ucmj? in it in the old days sodomy(not just G*ys) was punishable by death,this meant oral s@x and any odd s@x seen in P*rn. yet i wonder how many times that was ignored. does it make it right.


Exactly what is the point? Live in the past and you never will get beyond it.

jesus didnt come to save countries or make christian states but to save souls. if you all are that interesting in saving those like i was then be consistent


How can we be consistent when we have hundreds of denominations? You are asking to much, and wanting to much.

call for the death penalty for:
fornication
lying and anything on that list per romans 1.
or do YOU ALL NOT SEE THAT GOD inspired paul to write the scriptures and romans.


Do you think the lifestyle is justified and that God will accept it? Telling us exactly what you want us to do about believing and acting brings God down to the level of main. And you talk also like you are on one side and everyone else is on the other. If you are Christian as you say then we are all in the body of Christ. If you don;t feel that way then it's because you still clinging to that sin.

if God thinks those that do that list are all worthy of death then should we and call for such laws.

if not, dont pick on only G*ys when in the past we have hated blacks, G*ys, and at ton. i live in the south the old christians speak of the days in my county where whites went to one church and the blacks to another.

so God would just overlook that? so he blessed america when she was full of christian love that said dont mix the white with the black(yes some did teach that). the real churches didnt but i bet in my county those were few.there was one church that dared to invite all, no matter whose colors.


i wonder if any of the contra arguments actually have g*y neighbors and try to win them or just ignore them.

oh. this floridian was in school when prayer was around and the ten comandments and was taught creationism in school. yet then there was problems. racial riots.small reall small but the fights broke out.


Seems to me you want a soap box for your cause. This forum is not a soap box for that.

#96 ikester7579

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 09:07 PM

I think this thread needs to be closed again because it's getting out of control. And don't anyone start another thread on this subject because that considered going around the mods and admins.

#97 Fred Williams

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:26 AM

I'm going to re-open but ask everyone to work to watch the rhetoric, and try to understand your opponent's argument without reading something in to it that isn't there - I think we are all guilty of this in one fashion or another. Please keep in mind that this will be a naturally contentious debate with strong opinions.

I'm going to try another approach, assuming everyone agrees there should be some form of punishment for crimes. I think this boils down to some of us advocating that the U.S. install a justice system more reflective of the Mosaic Law (very similar to laws that existed in the U.S. 200 years ago), while others oppose doing this. My question to those who oppose this is, what basis do you use now to support current statutes and penalties? For example, if you support a first-time rapist getting 5 years (or whatever the statute is, or whatever you think it should be) as opposed to the Mosaic standard of death, what basis are you using to support your position? What should the penalty be for kidnapping, and what is your basis for supporting your position? 1st degree murder? manslaughter? Adultery? Etc....

Fred

#98 Teejay

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:52 AM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1313462154' post='74190']
It is God's eternal law...the law that existed BEFORE the law of Moses that sinners and/or gentiles are under. That law which is written upon the conscience according to Romans chapter two. Proof: no gentile was ever obligated to observe the Sabbath...either before or after Moses was given the law. That law was a covenant sign between God and Israel alone

Ex 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

If you think any gentile was ever obligated to observe the Sabbath then name him/her. The only possible exception were those who converted to the Jewish faith.

The Law of Moses is merely an extension of (a very special extension of) the eternal law of God in the same sense that the state constituion of Missouri, Alabama, or Maine are extensions of a higher law: the U.S. Constitution. All of those laws are in line with, but not exactly the same as the U.S. Constitution.
[/quote]

Cal, please go to my post # 12. You will see that I did not include Sabbath law in the "moral" crimes for which God demands the death penalty.

TeeJay

#99 Teejay

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:07 PM

funny, we ignore the fact that fornicating males tend (heteros) tend to like anal s@x done by women yet arent g*y at all? or do we forget that the military never has been a bastion of morality? how many times has the army had officers and ncos commit adultery? in the past and present?

cough we had a president in 60s do that. or what about the ucmj? in it in the old days sodomy(not just G*ys) was punishable by death,this meant oral s@x and any odd s@x seen in P*rn. yet i wonder how many times that was ignored. does it make it right.

jesus didnt come to save countries or make christian states but to save souls. if you all are that interesting in saving those like i was then be consistent

call for the death penalty for:
fornication
lying and anything on that list per romans 1.
or do YOU ALL NOT SEE THAT GOD inspired paul to write the scriptures and romans.


if God thinks those that do that list are all worthy of death then should we and call for such laws.

if not, dont pick on only G*ys when in the past we have hated blacks, G*ys, and at ton. i live in the south the old christians speak of the days in my county where whites went to one church and the blacks to another.

so God would just overlook that? so he blessed america when she was full of christian love that said dont mix the white with the black(yes some did teach that). the real churches didnt but i bet in my county those were few.there was one church that dared to invite all, no matter whose colors.


i wonder if any of the contra arguments actually have g*y neighbors and try to win them or just ignore them.

oh. this floridian was in school when prayer was around and the ten comandments and was taught creationism in school. yet then there was problems. racial riots.small reall small but the fights broke out.


Jason, I think you are getting a little too graphic in your description of S@xual behavior. We have a lady dialoging with us. And it's not necessary and it is drifting off topic. Please look at my Post 12. It lists the crimes for which we are argung.

I must also point out that apparently you think you are being picked on because of your prior sin before becoming a Christian. You are not special in this topic we are debating. I already pointed out that I too have committed a crime for which I should have been executed. The difference between us at the moment is that I admit that I am worthy of the death penalty. I do not object to God's penalty for my crime. Had His law been in force, though, I may not have committed the crime? But I, TeeJay, do not object to God's harsh penalty for the crime I committed. And you should not either.

And if you want to continue dialoguing with me on this, then do not let things get "personal." I have endeavored to be polite to all on this thread. Let us not forget that we are all brohers, and sisters, in Christ.

TeeJay

#100 Teejay

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:35 PM

[quote] name='Fred Williams' timestamp='1313511965' post='74216']
I'm going to re-open but ask everyone to work to watch the rhetoric, and try to understand your opponent's argument without reading something in to it that isn't there - I think we are all guilty of this in one fashion or another. Please keep in mind that this will be a naturally contentious debate with strong opinions.

I'm going to try another approach, assuming everyone agrees there should be some form of punishment for crimes. I think this boils down to some of us advocating that the U.S. install a justice system more reflective of the Mosaic Law (very similar to laws that existed in the U.S. 200 years ago), while others oppose doing this. My question to those who oppose this is, what basis do you use now to support current statutes and penalties? For example, if you support a first-time rapist getting 5 years (or whatever the statute is, or whatever you think it should be) as opposed to the Mosaic standard of death, what basis are you using to support your position? What should the penalty be for kidnapping, and what is your basis for supporting your position? 1st degree murder? manslaughter? Adultery? Etc....

Fred
[/quote]

Hello all, Let's start over. Fred has asked an excellent question. If God's moral laws do not apply to us today, then whose or what law should our government be implementing and enforcing. I would like all on this thread to answer this simple question.

Something to consider before you answer: Paul writes to Gentiles that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness." So if Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, can't we assume that before Christ we were under the law? If we were not under the law, then how could Jesus's death deliver us from a law we were not under? Why would Christ have to die to save us from a law by which we were not condemned?

One does not have to do any in-depth search of Scripture to show that God condemned Gentiles for violation of His law: When God promulgated His moral will through the Mosaic law, how much of mankind did He consider accountable to keep that law? From Paul's standpoint the answer was obvious: "Now we know that whatever things the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God" (Romans 3:19). God declared His righteous standards to Israel, and through Israel to all the world, thereby stopping every mouth and bringing all men, Jew and Gentile alike, under judgment. "Whatever things the law says," therefore, it says to the whole of mankind. Precisely for this reason Paul could "lay to the charge both of Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.... There is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (vv. 11, 23).

We see this most dramatically in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which the apostle Peter held up as "an example unto those who intend to live in an ungodly manner" (2 Peter 2:6). This was no special case, but an exemplary one. And what did it exemplify? That men -- Gentile men -- who engage in unrighteous, wicked conduct are kept under divine condemnation or punishment (v. 9) and will be utterly destroyed by God's wrath. Peter describes the wicked conduct of the Sodomites whom God destroyed with fire and brimstone as "lawless works" which daily tormented the soul of Abraham's nephew, Lot (v. 8). The same word, "lawless," which is used by Peter is found in the Septuagint (the Greek translation) of Genesis 19:15, where God's angels hastened Lot's family out of Sodom, lest they be destroyed "with the lawlessness of the city."

The Sodomites were condemned for behaving contrary to the LAW -- God's law, of course. They had demanded H*mos*xual relations with the guests staying in Lot's home (Gen. 19:5-9), having given themselves over to fornication and strange flesh (Jude 7). God's law through Moses clearly prohibited H*mos*xual relations as an abomination to God (Leviticus 18:22). God's law specified that those who committed such an abomination shall have "their blood upon them" -- that is, should "surely be put to death" (Leviticus 20:13). And even prior to the promulgation of His law at Sinai, God held the men of Sodom accountable to what His law through Moses later declared. In fact, they were being condemned for such behavior before Moses was on the scene! As the apostle Paul later wrote, even the Gentiles "know the ordinance of God that those who practice such things are worthy of death" (Romans 1:32). It is precisely "the ordinance [statute] of God" which condemns Gentile sinners.


During the historical period when God specifically revealed His statutes through Moses, the Lord clearly declared that He would, at that very time, hold the Gentile tribes of Palestine accountable to the same law Moses brought to the Israelites. That is, Gentiles would be condemned for not keeping the law of Moses.

Consider what we read in Leviticus 18. The chapter begins with God speaking to Israel through Moses and prohibiting the Israelites from doing the kind of things which are done in Egypt and in Canaan: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein you dwelt, you shall not do; and after the doings of the land of Canaan where I will bring you, you shall not do; neither shall you walk in their statutes. You shall do My ordinances..."(vv. 3-4). God then issues a series of specific prohibitions of things done by the Gentile Palestinians. He commands the Israelites that they must not engage in incest, polygamy, adultery, child sacrifice, profaning Jehovah's name, h*m*s*xuality, or b*stiality (vv. 6-230. The Mosaic law forbade all such conduct and severely punished it.

Immediately following the long list of prohibitions, God's word in Leviticus 18 goes on with these pointed words:

Do not defile yourselves in any of these things for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out from before you; and the land is defiled. Therefore, I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land shall vomit out her inhabitants. You therefore shall keep My statutes and My ordinances, and shall not do any of these abominations ... (for all these abominations have the men of the land done that were before you, and the land is defiled), lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, even as it vomits out the nation which was before you (vv. 24-28).

Why were the Gentiles which dwelt in the land of Palestine prior to Israel's conquest of the land under the wrath and curse of God? Because they engaged in the abominable actions which God's statutes through Moses condemned. The very law which God was revealing to Israel was the same law which concurrently brought divine punishment upon the Gentiles for transgressing. Israel and the Gentiles were under the same moral law, and they both would suffer the same penalty for the defilement which comes with violating it -- eviction from the land.

God's word is unambiguous about the accountability of the Gentiles to the law of Moses: "because of the wickedness of these nations, Jehovah thy God does drive them out from before you" (Deuteronomy 9:4-5) -- the wickedness which is forbidden to Israel in the Mosaic law (cf. Deuteronomy 12:29-32; 18:9-14)

TeeJay




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