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For Whom Was God's Law Intended, Israel Only Or The World?


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#181 Teejay

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 04:27 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313772629' post='74369']
I don't think these statistics prove your position. If they were molested then how much more so should we heal them instead of destroying them?[/quote]

ME, may I point out: If we had a swift, sure death penalty for h*m*s*xuality, then we would not have a second and third generation to "heal."

[quote]How much more so would our Lord want to heal them instead of destroying them?[/quote]

ME, I must point out to you as I did to Levi. You can have an opinion of what Jesus WOULD DO; or we can look at Post 12, get the Scripture reference, read it, and then you will know what God actually thinks on the matter. He knows best.

[quote]I didn't look at the link, but you are leaving some statistics out of your post: How many h*m*sexuals were molested by a heterosexual in their youth? How many heterosexuals molest or otherwise s*xually assault others?
[/quote]

ME, if you don't learn anything else from me, this I want you to learn. Notice that I never refer to men molesting boys as "child molesters." We have been brainwashed by the liberal news media to never refer to them as h*m*sexuals. When a man lies with a male (no matter what age), he is a H*mos*xual. And I will answer your question of how many boys were molested by heterosexuals? None.

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#182 Teejay

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 04:37 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313782676' post='74378']
Teejay, let's work on that speck.

Teejay is more righteous than Levi because Teejay upholds God's Law.

True or False? Pick one.
[/quote]

ME, I can't answer this because you basic premise is false. TeeJay does not uphold the law. But because I have accepted Jesus Christ, I have been taken out from under the condemnation of the law as it concerns my salvation. I have taken on Christ's righteousness because mine is as filthy rags. But if I commit murder or any of God's death penalty laws, I should be put to death. I do not object, as Paul proclaimed.

So, I can't possibly answer your question.

Stick with us, ME, eventually it will become clear.

TeeJay

#183 MamaElephant

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 05:17 PM

I ask that you stop assuming that you are the only one using scriptures. Scripture has been presented in posts other than yours and you choose to ignore it. I am perfectly capable of getting God's opinion on matters:

1 Corinthians 6: 9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in S@xual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice h*m*s*xuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

5 But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us. 6 For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.

7 You were running the race so well. Who has held you back from following the truth? 8 It certainly isn’t God, for he is the one who called you to freedom. 9 This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough! 10 I am trusting the Lord to keep you from believing false teachings. God will judge that person, whoever he is, who has been confusing you.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world."

Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in

that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!" Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

#184 MamaElephant

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 05:26 PM

Now I ask, how did the h*m*sexuals spoken of in Corinthians turn away from their former life? It's an easy answer, just quote the scripture.

#185 jason

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:03 PM

God is in the business of saving souls.

for he is that is in christ is a NEW creature. for the OLD things have PASSED away.


no law of moses could ever do that.

#186 Levi

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:38 PM

Levi, as you have probably discovered, I take a little different approach with Christians that I think are making a completely irrational and absurd argument. I'm one who sees little value in mincing words in such far-fetched circumstances. It may cause you to hate my guts, but I hope that next time you present the argument in some other setting, there will be a hesitation. You won't hear "its ok to agree to disagree". No, I will call it like it is and hope and some point in the future it sinks in for you. Your claim that death has zero deterrent value in all cases is as dumb as rocks. Do I think you are dumb? No, you are probably quite intelligent. Instead, I think you are dumb on purpose on this issue. You said that eye gouging for stealing apples would result in more stolen apples. This is unbelievably dumb. Let's use an even more extreme example. What if there is a wall in a public building that has a sign that says "don't touch, wet paint". Let's say 100 people walk by it. Probably at least 30 people will touch the wall, its the nature of man to be enticed by the law. Now lets say there is a guy standing by the wall, its Naxi Germany, and he has a machine gun and tells people not to touch the wall. According to your dumb, absurd logic, more than 30 people will touch the wall!!!

Levi, if a robber breaks in and holds a gun to your head and demands all the money in your wallet, will you give it to him? If he breaks in and is a 12 year old weak-looking kid with NO weapon, will you give it to him? If you are going to address this post, this is the only question I would like you to answer. Levi, its OK to admit you are wrong, that you are making a really, really, absurd argument.

Fred



Whats absurd and dumb is that you don't actually read or cant hear what I am saying!

I didn't say that eye gouging will increase the incidences of apple theft, what I said was, you will increase the incidences of EYE GOUGING! and maybe even increase the incidences of stabings.

The threat of getting caught is vague to a criminal and it is nowhere near the same as a man with a machine gun. And if a criminal wanted to touch the paint he would bring his own machine gun to even the odds, so instead of thirty passive paint touchers you will have one murderous paint toucher and a dead guard.

If a twelve year old breaks in your house and you shot him, you can GUARANTEE that the next robber WILL have a gun and he will most likely shot you first.

This is why you have so much viscious murderous trouble in your country.

In my country the police do not carry guns and we are not licensed to shoot intruders. The incidences of murder in New Zealand are moving up but nowhere on the scale seen in your country or other countries that license lethal force. It is as a result of the evil mass media campaigns by morally corrupt enterprises such as the American music and entertainment industry that causes most of our woes here, young people wanting to be gangster rappers or glamorized murders masquerading as the good guy or thieves and drug dealers living on easy street.

If we allow lethal force in the mix we WILL INCREASE the incidences of murder and violence.

Your logic is exactly what has lead your country to its current predicament.

You don't feel safe because you have breed generations of murderous thugs that exist in an environment that calls them to operate with lethal force.

#187 Teejay

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 07:56 PM

[quote]name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313799450' post='74390']
I ask that you stop assuming that you are the only one using scriptures. Scripture has been presented in posts other than yours and you choose to ignore it. I am perfectly capable of getting God's opinion on matters:

I ask that you stop assuming that you are the only one using scriptures. Scripture has been presented in posts other than yours and you choose to ignore it. I am perfectly capable of getting God's opinion on matters:[/quote]

ME, I don't believe I accused you of not using Scripture. Now I could have, but I don't recall doing it. I did point out to Levi that he gave no scriptural basis for his arguments. They were simply his opinions. We all have differing opinions. I'm still waiting for him to answer the million dollar question: If God's law with punishments are not for today, then whose law, or what law, or no law? Why do you think he refused to answer? You can answer if you wish.

ME, as the prison warden said in "Cool Hand Luke": "What we have here is a failure to communicate" And I think it's my failure. So I will try and explain from another angle.



[quote]1 Corinthians 6: 9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in S@xual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice h*m*s*xuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

5 But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us. 6 For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.

7 You were running the race so well. Who has held you back from following the truth? 8 It certainly isn’t God, for he is the one who called you to freedom. 9 This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough! 10 I am trusting the Lord to keep you from believing false teachings. God will judge that person, whoever he is, who has been confusing you.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world."

Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in

that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!" Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[/quote]



All of these passages above are admonitions by Paul to not use the law as a guide for righteous living. The people to whom Paul addressed these verses are converts (Jews and Gentiles) saved under Paul's gospel of grace. When God cut off Israel, He commissioned Paul to go to the Gentiles, bypassing Israel. God gave Paul the Gospel of Uncircumcision (no law, no works, saved by grace). This was radical change from the commission Jesus gave to Israel which was the Gospel of Circumcision (law and works plus grace). Just to show you that I'm not making this up:

"But on the contrary, when they [circumcision apostles at Jerusalem Council] saw that the gospel for [OF] the uncircumcised had been committed to me [Paul], as the gospel for [OF] the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the GRACE [GOSPEL] that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised." Gal. 2:7-9

Note: The KJV renders the passage in the most common manner, true to the usual function of the genitive case of these Greek nouns, “the gospel OF the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel OF the circumcision was to Peter.” The KJV translates these nouns as expected as genitives of description (describing the Gospel that was committed to each). Unexpectedly, the NKJV translates them as though they were indirect object genitives. Even if this unlikely translation were correct, WHICH IT IS NOT, the point remains: there is the Gospel for the Body and the Gospel for Israel, the former based on grace, the latter on circumcision [law].

Now Paul would establish a church and leave town for a while, and believing Pharisees (saved under the Gospel of Circumcision) would come behind Paul and tell Paul'S converts that they had to get circumcised. Circumcision is a synonym for law. When a Jew got circumcised, he put himself under th law, and he had to keep the law. Paul would come back to his grace church (Galatians say) and everyone would be getting circumcised and keeping the law to be righteous. Paul would go postal: "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh [law]. I fear for you." if an angel from heaven gives you a different gospel than I preach to you, let him be accursed."

Under the Gospel of circumcision [law] the Jews had to keep the law, do good works, produce fruit, and the list is long. And if they endured to the end and gave it their best shot, God would add a little grace and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." God can add grace to works, but He can't add works to grace. We are saved by grace. It's a gree gift. You can't do anything to pay for it, because if you do, it is no longer a free gift.

Recall that I said that the law had only two purposes: to deter criminals. And to convict and point to Jesus Christ. But Paul teaches that once the law has fulfilled these two purposes, to get us saved, then we are no longer under the law and are not condemned by it (for salvation purposes). And Paul teaches that we are not to use the law as a guide to righteous living once we are delivered from it. If we do, we are partaking of the Tree of Knowledge and are again cursed. So what are we to use as a guide for righteous living under Paul's gospel of grace? God. We are to walk in the Spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Everything we do or don't do should be governed by love for God and love for our neighbor. The married man who brags that he has never once was unfaithful to his wife will get no appreciation dinner from God or his wife when it is learned that for 20 years he lusted after his neighbor's wife. Now contrast this scenario with the man who did commit adultery early in his marriage but was sorry and repented. He asked for forgiveness, and for the next 40 years he grew to love his wife more and more and never even looked at another woman. The first husband will get a frying pan over the head from his wife. But the second wife will heap praise and love on her husband.

The law should never be used as a guide to righteousness living. If we can keep the law to some degree, we are puffed up, become self-righteous and do not need God. And if we break the law, which we always do, then the law serves up deseart--condemnation that drives us from God. (Adam and Eve hid themselves.)

So what Paul is teaching in the passages above is righteous living walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh (under the law).

Now this has nothing to do with our topic: Should God's moral law be in force today? It should because it still serves the two pruposes for which God intended: deter criminals and convict and point to Jesus. The whole unbelieving world is under God's law and condemned by it. But most are not convicted by it, because confused Christians have failed to use it as an evangelical tool.

TeeJay

#188 Teejay

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:09 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313800018' post='74391']
Now I ask, how did the h*m*sexuals spoken of in Corinthians turn away from their former life? It's an easy answer, just quote the scripture.
[/quote]

ME, I don't know if you can't grasp this because you don't understand or you just don't want to accept that God's law with punishments is for us today. Why the obstinacy? If you answer the question I've been asking, you will defeat your own argument. So I will ask again: If not God's law, then whose?

Getting frustrated with me is not going to answer this question or solve your dilemma.

And I can assure you that if I were a false teacher, Fred and his crew would run me out of here so fast, my name would not be remembered.

TeeJay

#189 Teejay

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:11 PM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1313802233' post='74392']
God is in the business of saving souls.

for he is that is in christ is a NEW creature. for the OLD things have PASSED away.


no law of moses could ever do that.
[/quote]

Jason, I'm glad you quoted some scripture. That's better than Levi did. But what in the world has this got to do with the topic we are on?

TeeJay

#190 Teejay

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:15 PM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1313802233' post='74392']
God is in the business of saving souls.

for he is that is in christ is a NEW creature. for the OLD things have PASSED away.


no law of moses could ever do that.
[/quote]

Jason, just think this through a bit. The gospel of grace did not exist until Paul was commissioned as the "apostle to the Gentiles." Did anyone get saved before Paul?

TeeJay

#191 Teejay

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:24 PM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1313788361' post='74379']
This is my opinion which may not be the opinion of this ministry.

In the old covenant (old testament) judgment was done before death and not after as in the new covenant. The reason for this is because when a man dies in the old covenant, his soul stayed in the grave with his body. This is confirmed by the term: Slept with his fathers. Which was what each person did when they died and is confirmed several times in the OT. To see this use a Bible search engine and search for the phrase: "slept father". That same phrase is omitted from the new testament because Christ made a straight way to Heaven by being our sin atonement.

So what this means is that judgment for sin like in the old testament no longer applies. God is not going to tell us to band together to kill people because they sin.

To better understand what I am talking about in the difference in the OT and NT, here's and example:

1) OT you die and your soul stay in the grave. No Heaven, No Hell = No judgment. So God passed judgment while man was still on earth.
2) NT you die your soul goes straight to Heaven or Hell. Judgment is right after death so it does not have to be before death.

And what else confirms they stayed in their graves in the OT after they died? They had to rise from their graves during Christ's resurrection.

mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Notice the word slept. Death in the OT was considered a type of soul sleep. This is also why when Christ brought the little girl back to life. He said that she is sleeping when the people said she was dead. And they laughed at Him for making that comment. Until Christ went to the cross, soul sleep was still in effect. And judgment was before sin instead of after it.

So for us to say that certain people should not live because of a certain sin, then we are denying what Christ changed on the cross. Now some might use the verse that says: God never changes. God did not have to change, Christ took over the covenant so God does not deal directly with us. Because the Bible also says: No one comes to the Father except through me (Christ speaking). In order for Christ to take over where God left off. Things have to be different. For them to be the same means that what Christ did means nothing.

So if we choose to abide by Old Testament rules, then we deny what Christ did in the New Testament to change that. Because if we want to apply the rule that "God never changes" to the degree that it fits all things, then Christ did not change one thing. So we either have to accept that Christ made judgment after death by making a straight way to Heaven, or say that nothing changed and what Christ did means nothing as well because judgment is before death. So which is it?
[/quote]

Ikester, I'm not sure I agree with you totally. I have to read this over a bit and digest it. I think it would make an excellent separate thread: "What happened to souls before the Cross?" If you want to start it, I will respond as soon as I clear up a few things on this thread--which may be never.

TeeJay

#192 Fred Williams

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:47 PM

Whats absurd and dumb is that you don't actually read or cant hear what I am saying!

I didn't say that eye gouging will increase the incidences of apple theft, what I said was, you will increase the incidences of EYE GOUGING! and maybe even increase the incidences of stabings.



Don't spin this Levi, you also said it would be ZERO deterrent, which is willful dumbness.


If a twelve year old breaks in your house and you shot him, you can GUARANTEE that the next robber WILL have a gun and he will most likely shot you first.



Levi, why is it so difficult for you to give a straight answer, but instead go off on a silly tangent? I will try one last example. When driving up to Mt Evans in Colorado, there are some pretty steep drop off along the way, not much of a shoulder and boom, 1000 foot drop. Do cars driving up Mt Evans swerve, text others, comb their hair, check their nails? No, I assure you from personal experience that they grip the steering wheel tighter than they have ever gripped it, and they go real slow and pay close attention. To say death is not a deterrent is dumb as rocks, possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard a believer say on this forum since its inception. Either you can choose to have a spirit open to learning, or you can continue in your stubborn ways and promote error the rest of your life. We're here to help, Levi.Posted Image


#193 MamaElephant

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 02:55 AM

This is Teejay and Fred's position is it not? Putting h*m*sexuals and adulterers in prison on death row and executing the death penalty within one day is a good idea because it would cause them to repent and be saved before their death.

#194 jason

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 04:46 AM

the blood wasnt good enough till paul came into the picture. it had to well seep the earth. right. sure that thief on the cross wasnt saved, he neither did works, no sacrifice (he was a jew) and just believed. thats a grace deal.

uh since when did God's law ever allow freedom to refuse serving him?

if we passed laws stating that we must serve him wouldnt that make the world love Jesus?


nope, we tried it and it didnt work. all throughout history of europe and the americas that was done. it failed.

#195 Levi

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 05:32 AM

Don't spin this Levi, you also said it would be ZERO deterrent, which is willful dumbness.


This is not a spin Fred it is an address to the fact that you made an erroneous claim about what I had stated. Why call this spin?

[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]

Levi, why is it so difficult for you to give a straight answer, but instead go off on a silly tangent? I will try one last example. When driving up to Mt Evans in Colorado, there are some pretty steep drop off along the way, not much of a shoulder and boom, 1000 foot drop. Do cars driving up Mt Evans swerve, text others, comb their hair, check their nails? No, I assure you from personal experience that they grip the steering wheel tighter than they have ever gripped it, and they go real slow and pay close attention. To say death is not a deterrent is dumb as rocks, possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard a believer say on this forum since its inception. Either you can choose to have a spirit open to learning, or you can continue in your stubborn ways and promote error the rest of your life. We're here to help, Levi.Posted Image



Ok so this is how silly I find your argument, you caught me off guard by using a criminal to illustrate your point.

But I would like you to mull over the following points:

The H*mos*xual does not stop his act of unprotected s@x although he knows his risks of contracting aids are astronomical.

The drug addict does not refrain from using a dirty needle although he knows the risks

The smoker does not stop smoking 40 cigarettes a day although he knows it will kill him.

The drunkard does not stop drinking although his liver is shot and gangrene is setting in in his extremities.

The drug smuggler does not stop smuggling although he knows the risk is death.

The murderer does not stop and think in the heat of satanic rage that overtakes him.

The rapist does not think about anything else when he is possessed by lust.

The purpose of the death penalty was to purge these types of people from the midst of the Israelis, to wipe them and their seed from the earth.

Deuteronomy 17:7
Deuteronomy 22:21
Deuteronomy 13:5

The only two death penalties that are as a deterrent are for: "enticing to false gods" and "bearing false witness". Which speaks volumes in a nation set aside and standing apart because of their God.

Also I would like everyone to consider this VERY IMPORTANT Biblical truth:

Romans 13:2 "Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment".

This answers your question Teejay that you seem to think I have not answered but I have addressed it many times.

The Law that should be enforced in your society today is the law of your government AS ORDAINED BY GOD!

Powerful truth is here that will grant freedom from the oppression of this issue and the apostasy of legalism that abounds therein.

Get over it! get on with it and do the work of the Kingdom- which lays outside your door in all the nations of the earth with what ever government our God has seen fit to appoint death penalty or no death penalty.

#196 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 05:49 AM

[quote] name='Levi' timestamp='1313804313' post='74395']
Whats absurd and dumb is that you don't actually read or cant hear what I am saying!

I didn't say that eye gouging will increase the incidences of apple theft, what I said was, you will increase the incidences of EYE GOUGING! and maybe even increase the incidences of stabings.

The threat of getting caught is vague to a criminal and it is nowhere near the same as a man with a machine gun. And if a criminal wanted to touch the paint he would bring his own machine gun to even the odds, so instead of thirty passive paint touchers you will have one murderous paint toucher and a dead guard.

If a twelve year old breaks in your house and you shot him, you can GUARANTEE that the next robber WILL have a gun and he will most likely shot you first.

This is why you have so much viscious murderous trouble in your country.

In my country the police do not carry guns and we are not licensed to shoot intruders. The incidences of murder in New Zealand are moving up but nowhere on the scale seen in your country or other countries that license lethal force. It is as a result of the evil mass media campaigns by morally corrupt enterprises such as the American music and entertainment industry that causes most of our woes here, young people wanting to be gangster rappers or glamorized murders masquerading as the good guy or thieves and drug dealers living on easy street.

If we allow lethal force in the mix we WILL INCREASE the incidences of murder and violence.

Your logic is exactly what has lead your country to its current predicament.

You don't feel safe because you have breed generations of murderous thugs that exist in an environment that calls them to operate with lethal force.
[/quote]

Levi,

In every State in America where the "right to carry" a concealed gun has been enacted, crimes against persons decreases by 30 to 35 percent. But crimes against property (breaking into a car, say) goes up by a corresponding amount. I saw this study on TV and I saw in personally in Texas as a law enforcement officer.

What does this tell you? The criminal is not dumb. If he sees and old couple in a car, and he thinks that there just might be a chance that he will get shot, will try an easier target. Terrorists don't hit hard targets. They look for soft targets. I was trained in counter-terrorism.

You argued that if someone breaks into my house and I shoot him, this will guarantee that the next intruder will have a gun. No it will not! That's stupid on the face of it. What this will guarantee is: "Don't mess with TeeJay's house. He's a "shoot first and ask questions later" kind of guy. And I hear his wife is better with a gun than he is.

I live in the country on 100 plus acres. I'm very good friends with the local sheriff. We practice on the range together. Since 911, Congress wants retired police officers to carry guns. We are trained not only how to shoot but when to shoot. And they get our services free of charge. The county I live in is huge geographically. The sheriff has told me that at night he has two deputies on duty. And if they are on the other side of the county it will take them an hour and a half to two hours to get to my house. Help is not minutes away as in a city. I taught my wife to shoot and she's better than I am. I practice with the sheriff and I stay proficient. I have a female lab that is scary, but she never bites. I don't tell anyone that she does not bite.

We have drug pushers and drug users in our county as Texas is on the Mexican border and the drugs are flowing in faster than we can stop them. But all of these users know me and my wife. We have a rep. And they do not come near my ranch house. So your argument that lethal force does not deter crimes is simply false. Now there has been numerous break-ins around me. They pick soft targets just as the terrorists do.

When I lived in Europe, I always got similar criticisms from the locals about how us Americans were cowboys with too many guns and they would proudly point out that their police officers did not carry guns--similar to yours above. But I would tell them that when they get in trouble they don't mind us American cowboys shedding our blood to save them. And when I was in England I got the same as yours above. But I would tell them that it was a good thing that Churchill was a bit of an American cowboy or they would be speaking German.

TeeJay

#197 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 06:06 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313834132' post='74407']
This is Teejay and Fred's position is it not? Putting h*m*sexuals and adulterers in prison on death row and executing the death penalty within one day is a good idea because it would cause them to repent and be saved before their death.
[/quote]

ME, It's not exactly my position or Fred's position. It's God's position.

If you put h*m*sexuals to death, you would have far less h*m*sexuals on death row. You would have far less dying of AIDS and all manner of STD's. You would have far less h*m*sexuals going to hell. You would have far less H*mos*xual men molesting young boys. And since h*m*sexuals reproduce by molesting young boys, you would have far less h*m*sexuals to deal with.

ME, we can go round and round all day and into next week even. In Post 12, I listed all the crimes, with Bible reference, for which God demands the death penalty. You disagree with this list (and with God, and not with TeeJay or Fred). Please understand this.

Now since you disagree and do not think that God's law should be in effect, then I must ask you to present your criminal justice system. Or do you think that there should be no criminal justice system with punishments. I will proceed no further until you answer this. You can take my Post 12 and edit it to agree with your worldview. Then present it and we will all look at ME's criminal justice system.

TeeJay

#198 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 06:16 AM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1313840776' post='74409']
the blood wasnt good enough till paul came into the picture. it had to well seep the earth. right. sure that thief on the cross wasnt saved, he neither did works, no sacrifice (he was a jew) and just believed. thats a grace deal.[/quote]

Yes it was. I wrote earlier that God can add grace to works under the gospel of circumcision but He can't add works under the gospel of uncircumcision. Grace is free gift and if God required works then it would not be a free gift. If I gave my wife a diamond ring and then made her pay me back, it would not be a gift.

Now if the thief had lived, he would be required to keep the Sabbath, get circumcise his children, get circumcised himself, visit the sick, visit prisoners, take the plow and not look back, preach the gospel, lay hands on the sick, step on serpents and not die, drink poison without getting sick, lay hands on the sick, believe, produce fruit, keep the feasts, not eat meat sacrifice to idols, and we can add to this list until I time out on the computer. Such was life under the gospel of circumcision or the law.

[quote]h since when did God's law ever allow freedom to refuse serving him?[/quote]

Under Paul's gospel of uncircumcision, you are not under the law. You are under grace.

[quote]if we passed laws stating that we must serve him wouldnt that make the world love Jesus?[/quote]

No. No matter what God or we do, most of the world hates Him. "My door is narrow and few will enter."


[quote]nope, we tried it and it didnt work. all throughout history of europe and the americas that was done. it failed.
[/quote

Jason, present you criminal justice system since you don't like God's.

TeeJay

#199 MamaElephant

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 06:55 AM

Okay. I know a lot of unsaved people. I am sure you do too. Let's gather them all up, put them in jail on death row, read them some scriptures to show them why. Then they will all accept Jesus all the sooner, and if not, the world will be a better place. Right?

#200 MamaElephant

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 06:57 AM

The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.




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