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For Whom Was God's Law Intended, Israel Only Or The World?


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#101 Calypsis4

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 04:50 PM

Cal, please go to my post # 12. You will see that I did not include Sabbath law in the "moral" crimes for which God demands the death penalty.

TeeJay


O.K.

Bye.

#102 Teejay

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:10 PM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1313538653' post='74222']
O.K.

Bye.
[/quote]

Cal, I hope the "bye" is not final? Are you going to address my post 100?

TeeJay

#103 Calypsis4

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:16 PM

Cal, I hope the "bye" is not final? Are you going to address my post 100?

TeeJay


Answers:

No, it isn't final.

No.

#104 Air-run

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 12:57 AM

Why were the Gentiles which dwelt in the land of Palestine prior to Israel's conquest of the land under the wrath and curse of God? Because they engaged in the abominable actions which God's statutes through Moses condemned. The very law which God was revealing to Israel was the same law which concurrently brought divine punishment upon the Gentiles for transgressing. Israel and the Gentiles were under the same moral law, and they both would suffer the same penalty for the defilement which comes with violating it -- eviction from the land.


My 2 cents...

Do you see the differences in the example you cite? For one, the death penalty that was required for all those abominations you mention earlier were typically carried out by Israelites on other Isaraelites.

Do you think Gentiles stoned other Gentiles for not keeping the Sabbath? No, they weren't obeying God's law, neither were they carrying out the judgements on each other for breaking God's law. The situation of Israel was not like the Gentile situation.

As to the Gentiles, God became their divine judge. Outside of those nations Israel wiped out when they took the promised land, most of the pagan and Gentile nations did not experience any death penalties for breaking God's law. The due punishment was not carried out until after the pagans died in their sin - which is by far a worse punishment than being stoned to death.

What about today? Jesus has bore the punishment for every person's sins - even the unbeliever. While it was the lawful practice of Israel to extract an immediate death penalty for breaking certain laws, we are not under that covenant any more. Judgement for law breakers has been postponed until the end of the age. God is not going to require the immediate lawful consequences for people's sins right now because Jesus bore those consequences - even the consequences of those who reject him. If people continue to reject him when they die, they will receive the just punishment by default because they did not receive the free gift.

This mostly speaks of God's role as judge. I'm not completely sure how this would translate to our justice system.

#105 Levi

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:23 AM

Anyone who is under the law is under a CURSE, because if he does not do everything the law requires of him, he is condemned.

and

Those who have died apart from the Gospel will be judged according to their conscience sometimes defending and sometime convicting. We all have the knowledge of good and evil inside us, it is the fruit of disobedience gained in the garden.

The sole purpose of the law was to

A: increase conviction.
b: remove excuse.
c: bring greater understanding of what sin is.

The law was never meant to make people Holy or righteous, it serves ONE purpose, to CONDEMN!

Jesus said that so long as Heaven and earth remain not one jot nor tittle will be removed from the law.

So what to make of that?

Easy: Jesus said again "some suppose that I have come to do away with the law, but I have not come to do away with it but to fulfill it." He is our death penalty fulfilled because we are ALL transgressors of the law.

Jesus made it IMPOSSIBLE to obtain righteousness under law "You have heard it said that a man shall not commit adultery but I tell you if you even look at a woman in that way I will judge you guilty" He raised the bar to impossibility with this and some other statements.

The Disciples said this to the gentiles:

Refrain from S@xual immorality.
Refrain from false idols.
refrain from eating blood.

That's our only law to lay down on others when bringing them into the grace of God, the law of their land will suffice for physical boundaries, a renewed mind in Christ brings with it greater understanding of sin and death and His power that overcomes.

The righteous man shall stumble seven times. We as Christians have the power to overcome the world and hold out till the end, no matter how many times we fall we will always fall to the foot of the cross.

As for the law of the land, well to be honest this is a fallen world and its largely run by criminals against God's laws, there are many I don't agree with that's to be expected. But we shouldn't get all bent out of shape about it because faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by preaching.

If a person has broken Gods law (and all have) they will feel the conviction and will either repent or want to kill you for bringing the message.

Politics are neither Gods law nor the Gospel, so to top this speil off I would say they are actually a distraction.

#106 Levi

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:37 AM

My 2 cents...

What about today? Jesus has bore the punishment for every person's sins - even the unbeliever. While it was the lawful practice of Israel to extract an immediate death penalty for breaking certain laws, we are not under that covenant any more. Judgement for law breakers has been postponed until the end of the age. God is not going to require the immediate lawful consequences for people's sins right now because Jesus bore those consequences - even the consequences of those who reject him. If people continue to reject him when they die, they will receive the just punishment by default because they did not receive the free gift.

This mostly speaks of God's role as judge. I'm not completely sure how this would translate to our justice system.


We need to be like Paul, unto the slaves we need to be as slaves unto the freeman we need to be as a freeman, to the Jew as to one who is under the law to the gentile as a gentile... Speaks of not exampling anything that will cause your brother to fall. Obey the law of the land but put what you know through the renewal of you mind first and above all don't do anything that could lead your brother into sin.

The ruler of this world will always work into the mix and more so as we go down the slippery slope to the final day, but this springs to mind: "whoa unto the generation that calls good evil and evil good"

Be an ambassador no matter where you find yourself, that's my 2 cents.

#107 Teejay

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:04 AM

[quote] name='Air-run' timestamp='1313567823' post='74244']
My 2 cents...[/quote]

Air, your two cents are more than welcome. This is a very important issue--an issue about which most Christians are very confused.

[quote]Do you see the differences in the example you cite? For one, the death penalty that was required for all those abominations you mention earlier were typically carried out by Israelites on other Isaraelites.[/quote]

Does this mean that God did not want Israelites to execute Israelites? I'm not sure where you're going here?

[quote]Do you think Gentiles stoned other Gentiles for not keeping the Sabbath? No, they weren't obeying God's law, neither were they carrying out the judgements on each other for breaking God's law. The situation of Israel was not like the Gentile situation.[/quote]

Air, if you go back to my post 12, I list only the "moral" crimes for which God demands the death penalty. I agree that Sabbath law was not enforced outside of Israel--nor should it be. Symbolic law (feasts, diets, clothing, Sabbaths) was for Israel only, was neither moral nor immoral, and pointed to Jesus Christ.

[quote]As to the Gentiles, God became their divine judge. Outside of those nations Israel wiped out when they took the promised land, most of the pagan and Gentile nations did not experience any death penalties for breaking God's law. The due punishment was not carried out until after the pagans died in their sin - which is by far a worse punishment than being stoned to death.[/quote]

I'm not sure where you got this? Actually, Israel mostly disobeyed God's command to drive the pagans out completely. And the pagan nations became "a thorn in their sides" as God prophesied. Because they were not successful in driving them out, the Israelites married their women, took their gods to worship, and Solomon even built a temple for one of his pagan wives.

God did not "become" their divine judge. He always was their divine judge. All these pagan nations came out of the loins of Noah and many of these pagan nations were the result of incestious relationships between Ham and his mother and Lot and his daughters. Now God did not want them destroyed for the sins of their fathers or mothers. Rather He wanted them killed because of the crimes they were guilty of--crimes for which God told Israel He demanded the death penalty.

[quote]What about today? Jesus has bore the punishment for every person's sins - even the unbeliever. While it was the lawful practice of Israel to extract an immediate death penalty for breaking certain laws, we are not under that covenant any more. Judgement for law breakers has been postponed until the end of the age. God is not going to require the immediate lawful consequences for people's sins right now because Jesus bore those consequences - even the consequences of those who reject him. If people continue to reject him when they die, they will receive the just punishment by default because they did not receive the free gift.[/quote]

Jesus died to save our souls and not our physical bodies. God could rearrange molecules and heal bodies before the Cross, and Jesus did that numerous times. But Jesus said that "no man has gone to heaven" meaning that all were in Abraham's bosom awaiting Jesus sacrifice on the Cross and then "He led captives {that were in Abraham's bosom) free.

Can you go back and read some of my posts on this. There is one where I list all of the New Testament passages that endorse the death penalty. Then get back to me and we will discuss.

[quote]This mostly speaks of God's role as judge. I'm not completely sure how this would translate to our justice system.
[/quote]

I am retired law enforcement. When I retired, I did an in-depth study of God's criminal justice system. I did this because I saw, first hand, that ours was broken. Ask any police officer. Our country is about to go down the toilet because we have lost our Moral Compass. I will ask you the same question that Fred and I posed: Absent God's law, what law do you think our country should be under? I haven't gotten a good answer on this yet.

TeeJay

#108 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 08:22 AM

What about today? Jesus has bore the punishment for every person's sins - even the unbeliever. While it was the lawful practice of Israel to extract an immediate death penalty for breaking certain laws, we are not under that covenant any more. Judgement for law breakers has been postponed until the end of the age. God is not going to require the immediate lawful consequences for people's sins right now because Jesus bore those consequences - even the consequences of those who reject him.

:yoda: :cool:


We need to be like Paul, unto the slaves we need to be as slaves unto the freeman we need to be as a freeman, to the Jew as to one who is under the law to the gentile as a gentile... Speaks of not exampling anything that will cause your brother to fall. Obey the law of the land but put what you know through the renewal of you mind first and above all don't do anything that could lead your brother into sin.

The ruler of this world will always work into the mix and more so as we go down the slippery slope to the final day, but this springs to mind: "whoa unto the generation that calls good evil and evil good"

Be an ambassador no matter where you find yourself, that's my 2 cents.

:yes:


Can you go back and read some of my posts on this. There is one where I list all of the New Testament passages that endorse the death penalty. Then get back to me and we will discuss.

I am retired law enforcement. When I retired, I did an in-depth study of God's criminal justice system. I did this because I saw, first hand, that ours was broken. Ask any police officer. Our country is about to go down the toilet because we have lost our Moral Compass. I will ask you the same question that Fred and I posed: Absent God's law, what law do you think our country should be under? I haven't gotten a good answer on this yet.

TeeJay

to do those things which are not fitting;

29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:

32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death,

:get_a_clue:

#109 Teejay

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 09:35 AM

[quote] name='Levi' timestamp='1313580181' post='74250']
Anyone who is under the law is under a CURSE, because if he does not do everything the law requires of him, he is condemned.

and

Those who have died apart from the Gospel will be judged according to their conscience sometimes defending and sometime convicting. We all have the knowledge of good and evil inside us, it is the fruit of disobedience gained in the garden.[/quote]

Levi, you could not be more correct in what you wrote above if you were the apostle Paul. "By the law, no flesh will be justified." "The law is not of faith." And without faith, it's impossible to please God. "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law."

But the purpose of this thread is should our government be under and inforcing God's "moral" laws with punishments prescribed by God? Just to be clear, in my Post 12, I list all of the moral laws that I think apply to all men (not just Israel). And in the absence of God as a Foundation or Ultimate Standard, what should be our standard for determining what is moral and immoral? I have not gotten an answer from anyone on this thread yet. If you are against God as the Ultimate Standard, then what standard do we replace Him with?

[quote]The sole purpose of the law was to

A: increase conviction.
b: remove excuse.
c: bring greater understanding of what sin is.[/quote]

God gave the law for two purposes: First, God's law, if justly and swiftly enforced, deters criminals. Moses and Solomon both said that if criminals are punished swiftly and justly, then "men will hear and fear and not act presumptiously." The second purpose is as you correctly wrote, "increase conviction." Paul wrote that "the law was our tutor to bring us to Jesus Christ. The law is a mirror to show us our true selves as the sinners we are. And I like your third purpose, "bring greater understand of what sin is." The Law is The Great Teacher. Even bad law accomplishes its mission--it teaches immorality. Fifty years you if a woman said, "I can kill my baby because I have the right to choose, she would have been hanged. But for the last 40 or so years, Supreme Court law (bad law) has taught generations that young women have a God-given right to kill their kids. The Law is the Great Teacher.

[quote]The law was never meant to make people Holy or righteous, it serves ONE purpose, to CONDEMN![/quote]

God gave the law for two purposes: First, God's law, if justly and swiftly enforced, deters criminals. Moses and Solomon both said that if criminals are punished swiftly and justly, then "men will hear and fear and not act presumptiously." The second purpose is as you correctly wrote, "increase conviction." Paul wrote that "the law was our tutor to bring us to Jesus Christ. The law is a mirror to show us our true selves as the sinners we are. And I like your third purpose, "bring greater understand of what sin is." The Law is The Great Teacher. Even bad law accomplishes its mission--it teaches immorality. Fifty years you if a woman said, "I can kill my baby because I have the right to choose, she would have been hanged. But for the last 40 or so years, Supreme Court law (bad law) has taught generations that young women have a God-given right to kill their kids. The Law is the Great Teacher.

[quote]Jesus said that so long as Heaven and earth remain not one jot nor tittle will be removed from the law.

So what to make of that?

Easy: Jesus said again "some suppose that I have come to do away with the law, but I have not come to do away with it but to fulfill it." He is our death penalty fulfilled because we are ALL transgressors of the law.[/quote]


Jesus died to save our souls, and not our physical bodies. Jesus, using hyperbole said that it was better to enter Heaven with missing body parts than to go to Hell hardy and whole. God could rearrange molecules and heal the body before the Cross. But to save our souls, Jesus had to die. And regardless of salvation, all bodies will be resurrected--some to eternal glory and some to eternal damnation.

God's death penalty was not optional and judges were forbidden by God to show mercy (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31). Earthly judges can't judge the heart. Only God can do that. Christians who violate God's moral law should be punished the same as unbelievers.


[quote]Jesus made it IMPOSSIBLE to obtain righteousness under law "You have heard it said that a man shall not commit adultery but I tell you if you even look at a woman in that way I will judge you guilty" He raised the bar to impossibility with this and some other statements.

The Disciples said this to the gentiles:

Refrain from S@xual immorality.
Refrain from false idols.
refrain from eating blood.

That's our only law to lay down on others when bringing them into the grace of God, the law of their land will suffice for physical boundaries, a renewed mind in Christ brings with it greater understanding of sin and death and His power that overcomes.

The righteous man shall stumble seven times. We as Christians have the power to overcome the world and hold out till the end, no matter how many times we fall we will always fall to the foot of the cross.

As for the law of the land, well to be honest this is a fallen world and its largely run by criminals against God's laws, there are many I don't agree with that's to be expected. But we shouldn't get all bent out of shape about it because faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by preaching.

If a person has broken Gods law (and all have) they will feel the conviction and will either repent or want to kill you for bringing the message.

Politics are neither Gods law nor the Gospel, so to top this speil off I would say they are actually a distraction.
[/quote]

Levi, this last material you posted is for another thread but Israel was not given a Gospel of Grace. "I came only to the House of Israel," Jesus said. And Jesus was born under the law, circumcised on th eighth day, and He kept the law perfectly. But Jesus never once told the Twelve that they were no longer under the law. The Twelve were Jews, the "people of the circumcision" and were under the Mosaic symbolic law of circumcision (perpetual laws) for Israel. Please let this go. If you want to start a thread on this, we can discuss it.

TeeJay

#110 Teejay

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 09:59 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313594557' post='74256']
:yoda: :cool:


:yes:


to do those things which are not fitting;

29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:

32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death,

:get_a_clue:
[/quote]

ME, I would appreciate a little quid pro quo. I am answering a lot of people on this thread, and so far, the only one on my side is Fred. Now I'm not complaining. I get this when I try to teach at a church, say, because Christians have been falsely taught by well meaning Christian teachers and preachers that we should not enforce God's criminal law. "This is the age of grace" and so on.

I will gladly answer any questions or arguments you have, but when I give my arguments and explanations I would like you to either give a reasoned rebuttal with some Scripture or say, "TeeJay, that's a good point. Let me think a little on that." But there is no use in my presenting an argument if it is not addressed and I am hit with another "what if" argument.

For example, in my post to Cal (not too many posts ago) i showed that God told Israel that the pagan nations around them were committing the crimes for which God told Moses to put Isralites to death--clearly showing that God held the Gentile nations outside of Israel just as guilty as He held the Jews for breaking his laws.

The death penalty for murder was not given to Israel. It was given by God to Noah (Gen. 9:6). Theologians call this God's Dispensation of Government verses the Dispensation of Conscience (Cain to Noah). Should we simply disregard God's command here, to the whole human race, to put murderers to death?

And I am still waiting for the answer to Fred's and my question. If we are not to institute God's law, then whose or what law should we implement? Would you please answer this.

TeeJay

#111 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 11:25 AM

I will gladly answer any questions or arguments you have,

There are a lot of people on this thread. My post was not with the purpose of questioning or arguing with you, but for communicating with others.

#112 Teejay

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 05:55 PM

[quote] name='Levi' timestamp='1313581067' post='74251']
We need to be like Paul, unto the slaves we need to be as slaves unto the freeman we need to be as a freeman, to the Jew as to one who is under the law to the gentile as a gentile... Speaks of not exampling anything that will cause your brother to fall. Obey the law of the land but put what you know through the renewal of you mind first and above all don't do anything that could lead your brother into sin.[/quote]

Levi, What we are arguing here is whether God's moral laws should be in force today. Are unbelievers under the law? Should God's death penalty be enforced? If enforced, should Christians be put to death the same as unbelievers? Understand we are not talking about salvation, although I argue that without the law, evangelism becomes more difficult. How does one convict an unbeliever that he is a sinners in need of a Savior without the law to convict him? It's like trying to get a man to put on a parachute who does not think the plane is about to crash. And when men do not see Godly justice on earth, it becomes increasingly difficult to believe that there is a just God in heaven that will judge them.

Did you read my post 100?

[quote]The ruler of this world will always work into the mix and more so as we go down the slippery slope to the final day, but this springs to mind: "whoa unto the generation that calls good evil and evil good"

Be an ambassador no matter where you find yourself, that's my 2 cents.
[/quote]

Yes, Levi. Right on. Israel disobeyed God and His law and the unavoidable outcome was as you posted, "they called evil good and good evil." And we have abandoned God's law as our Moral Compass and we are reaping the consequences. Through Ezekiel, God asked Israel, "And will you profane Me among My people... killing people who should not die [babies in the womb], and keeping people alive who should not live [h*m*sexuals, kidnappers, murderers, false witnesses, rapists, incest violators]...? (Ezek. 13:19).

TeeJay

#113 Levi

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:00 PM

Levi, this last material you posted is for another thread but Israel was not given a Gospel of Grace. "I came only to the House of Israel," Jesus said. And Jesus was born under the law, circumcised on th eighth day, and He kept the law perfectly. But Jesus never once told the Twelve that they were no longer under the law. The Twelve were Jews, the "people of the circumcision" and were under the Mosaic symbolic law of circumcision (perpetual laws) for Israel. Please let this go. If you want to start a thread on this, we can discuss it.

TeeJay


Jesus smashed and hammered the Pharisees and the teachers of law He called them the sons of Satan! because they did not do what the law required, they did not understand what the law was all about.

My point is this TeeJay:


We shouldn't be to worried about what happens here in this age, because it is an age of sin and death. Corruption is rife and law only exasperates this phenomenon. The human heart is desperately wicked and you will always see the rich avoiding punishment and the poor being hammered. This was exemplified by the Jews who had all sorts of ways to flout and crookedly enforce the law, to the point of putting to death a perfect follower of the law, it is rife in every society today.

As Christians it matters not what law makers do, we should follow the laws, but you should worry more about your own heart and the 'law of the Spirit'! because the physical law increases corruption, here is true law:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto
Forgive so that your Father in Heaven can forgive you (He is bound by His Word)
As you judge so shall ye be judged


Honestly, who cares what fallen rulers of a fallen world do, if they are rulers of perverts and adulterers then they will act accordingly (God grants the desires of the heart). It's only going to be crooked and expecting anything else is like expecting good fruit from a rotten tree. This is not the age of grace my friend, this is the age of sin and death.


So lets not get to wound up about the law of man or the law of the land, but lets just obey what is right and teach others to do the same. I am not a citizen of this earth so I do not worry on its political affairs, my concerns lay elsewhere.

#114 Teejay

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:36 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313605530' post='74263']
There are a lot of people on this thread. My post was not with the purpose of questioning or arguing with you, but for communicating with others.
[/quote]

ME, Okay. But did you read my Post 100? In this post I think I gave an irrefragable argument to show that Gentiles were under the Mosaic law and God punished them under it. Can you read it and tell me if you disagree with it and why?

I also asked some questions that no one has yet addressed. The big one is if not God's law then whose or what or none? Fred also asked this. No answer as yet.

TeeJay

#115 Teejay

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:42 PM

[quote] name='Levi' timestamp='1313629254' post='74276']
Jesus smashed and hammered the Pharisees and the teachers of law He called them the sons of Satan! because they did not do what the law required, they did not understand what the law was all about.

My point is this TeeJay:


We shouldn't be to worried about what happens here in this age, because it is an age of sin and death. Corruption is rife and law only exasperates this phenomenon. The human heart is desperately wicked and you will always see the rich avoiding punishment and the poor being hammered. This was exemplified by the Jews who had all sorts of ways to flout and crookedly enforce the law, to the point of putting to death a perfect follower of the law, it is rife in every society today.

As Christians it matters not what law makers do, we should follow the laws, but you should worry more about your own heart and the 'law of the Spirit'! because the physical law increases corruption, here is true law:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto
Forgive so that your Father in Heaven can forgive you (He is bound by His Word)
As you judge so shall ye be judged


Honestly, who cares what fallen rulers of a fallen world do, if they are rulers of perverts and adulterers then they will act accordingly (God grants the desires of the heart). It's only going to be crooked and expecting anything else is like expecting good fruit from a rotten tree. This is not the age of grace my friend, this is the age of sin and death.


So lets not get to wound up about the law of man or the law of the land, but lets just obey what is right and teach others to do the same. I am not a citizen of this earth so I do not worry on its political affairs, my concerns lay elsewhere.
[/quote]

Levi, I disagree with this post. But before I answer, I think I addressed a lot of it in Post 12. I'm not a terribly fast typist and I'm a dinosaur on computers. While you're at it can you read Posts 3, 24, and 100 Then get back to me. What we must keep in mind, Levi, is that our personal opinions on any issue do not really matter. Everyone has a personal opinion. If our Ultimate Standard is not God and His word, then we can reach truth only by accident. And then we would not know if it's true.

TeeJay

#116 Teejay

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:43 PM

Jesus smashed and hammered the Pharisees and the teachers of law He called them the sons of Satan! because they did not do what the law required, they did not understand what the law was all about.

My point is this TeeJay:


We shouldn't be to worried about what happens here in this age, because it is an age of sin and death. Corruption is rife and law only exasperates this phenomenon. The human heart is desperately wicked and you will always see the rich avoiding punishment and the poor being hammered. This was exemplified by the Jews who had all sorts of ways to flout and crookedly enforce the law, to the point of putting to death a perfect follower of the law, it is rife in every society today.

As Christians it matters not what law makers do, we should follow the laws, but you should worry more about your own heart and the 'law of the Spirit'! because the physical law increases corruption, here is true law:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto
Forgive so that your Father in Heaven can forgive you (He is bound by His Word)
As you judge so shall ye be judged


Honestly, who cares what fallen rulers of a fallen world do, if they are rulers of perverts and adulterers then they will act accordingly (God grants the desires of the heart). It's only going to be crooked and expecting anything else is like expecting good fruit from a rotten tree. This is not the age of grace my friend, this is the age of sin and death.


So lets not get to wound up about the law of man or the law of the land, but lets just obey what is right and teach others to do the same. I am not a citizen of this earth so I do not worry on its political affairs, my concerns lay elsewhere.



#117 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 07:31 PM

Hello all, Let's start over. Fred has asked an excellent question. If God's moral laws do not apply to us today, then whose or what law should our government be implementing and enforcing. I would like all on this thread to answer this simple question.

Laws should serve the purpose of protecting others from threats to their safety or rights. Consenting adults engaging in H*mos*xual acts does no damage to anyone else, so why should the law bother with it?

Something to consider before you answer: Paul writes to Gentiles that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness." So if Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, can't we assume that before Christ we were under the law? If we were not under the law, then how could Jesus's death deliver us from a law we were not under? Why would Christ have to die to save us from a law by which we were not condemned?

Well, there you have it. Teejay admits that we are not under the law. The gospel is all about God's grace. His view of G*ys is a part of that. Can they also take advantage of the eternal life He has given us? Or does He hate them too much to give them a chance? Does God feel this way, or does Teejay?

One does not have to do any in-depth search of Scripture to show that God condemned Gentiles for violation of His law: When God promulgated His moral will through the Mosaic law, how much of mankind did He consider accountable to keep that law? From Paul's standpoint the answer was obvious: "Now we know that whatever things the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God" (Romans 3:19). God declared His righteous standards to Israel, and through Israel to all the world, thereby stopping every mouth and bringing all men, Jew and Gentile alike, under judgment. "Whatever things the law says," therefore, it says to the whole of mankind. Precisely for this reason Paul could "lay to the charge both of Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.... There is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (vv. 11, 23).

Teejay, I do not understand how you think that this scripture is supporting your position? I see just the opposite. "For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"--Romans 3:22-24 This seems to say that you and I are just as guilty as the h*m*sexuals and we have all been justified freely by His grace.

The Sodomites were condemned for behaving contrary to the LAW -- God's law, of course.

"Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town." --Matthew 10:15


During the historical period when God specifically revealed His statutes through Moses, the Lord clearly declared that He would, at that very time, hold the Gentile tribes of Palestine accountable to the same law Moses brought to the Israelites. That is, Gentiles would be condemned for not keeping the law of Moses.

Consider what we read in Leviticus 18. The chapter begins with God speaking to Israel through Moses and prohibiting the Israelites from doing the kind of things which are done in Egypt and in Canaan: "After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein you dwelt, you shall not do; and after the doings of the land of Canaan where I will bring you, you shall not do; neither shall you walk in their statutes. You shall do My ordinances..."(vv. 3-4). God then issues a series of specific prohibitions of things done by the Gentile Palestinians. He commands the Israelites that they must not engage in incest, polygamy, adultery, child sacrifice, profaning Jehovah's name, h*m*s*xuality, or b*stiality (vv. 6-230. The Mosaic law forbade all such conduct and severely punished it.

Immediately following the long list of prohibitions, God's word in Leviticus 18 goes on with these pointed words:

Do not defile yourselves in any of these things for in all these things the nations are defiled which I cast out from before you; and the land is defiled. Therefore, I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land shall vomit out her inhabitants. You therefore shall keep My statutes and My ordinances, and shall not do any of these abominations ... (for all these abominations have the men of the land done that were before you, and the land is defiled), lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, even as it vomits out the nation which was before you (vv. 24-28).

Yes, so isn't the point that God's people should not act as unbelievers do?

The Sodomites were condemned for behaving contrary to the LAW -- God's law, of course. They had demanded H*mos*xual relations with the guests staying in Lot's home (Gen. 19:5-9), having given themselves over to fornication and strange flesh (Jude 7). God's law through Moses clearly prohibited H*mos*xual relations as an abomination to God (Leviticus 18:22). God's law specified that those who committed such an abomination shall have "their blood upon them" -- that is, should "surely be put to death" (Leviticus 20:13).

You seem to be very focused on h*m*s*xuality. You may have personal reasons for that. The fact of the matter is that you focus on h*m*s*xuality more than the Bible does, so I ask that you please put Romans 1:32 into context and stop using this thread as a soapbox.

#118 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 10:30 PM

Romans 3:26, Living Bible: But isn't this unfair for God to let criminals go free and say that they are innocent? No, for he does it on the basis of their trust in Jesus who took away their sins. 31 Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need to obey God's laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

1 Corinthians 5:12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside

#119 Fred Williams

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 10:32 PM

There still seems to be a great amount of confusion on what is being advocated in this thread. I will try another approach that I hope clears some of this up. I hope everyone reading this at least admits that there are many people dying of AIDs and other sexual diseases related to homosexuality and other promiscuities. So please accept the fact that, just considering AIDs alone, the life expectancy for homosexuals is less than the national average. We also have studies that show same-sex partners have a higher murder rate, suicide rate, STD rate, and drug use rate. I would hope as Christians we would want to find a solution to this problem and save their lives.

Here are two plans I would like to propose:

1) Do nothing - stand by and watch another 35,000 homosexual men contract AIDs.
2) Institute a plan that prevents an estimated 34,125 new AIDs cases in homosexual men.

My plan, according to statistics, would save 34,125 lives! As a Christian, I would hope everyone jumps on board option 2.

Does plan number 2 show LOVE, or HATE, for homosexuals?

I suspect at this point most everyone knows where I am going with this. Plan 2 is a plan of love, based on a Biblical principal from the One who knows the most about love. I arrived at the above numbers using the latest statistics, in conjunction with by applying a Biblical standard of a capital punishment deterrent against homosexuality. We finally have statistics from Saudi Arabia, where practicing homosexuality is a capital offense. In 2009, AIDs as the result of homosexual behavior in Saudi Arabia was only 2.5% of all cases, just 32 men total! (link). Apply 2.5% to the US rate of 35,000, and you would reduce 35,000 down to 825; that is, 34,125 lives would have been spared suffering from AIDs,

God's wisdom is greater than ours, why do we think He was wrong to institute capital punishment for murder, homosexuality, rape, adultery? Clearly it was not just for punishment and judgment, but most importantly because He loves is and wants to keep us out of trouble. Think of the lives we would protect from the misery of a broken family caused by divorce? How many lady friends do you have out there that you know were raped, that would have been spared this tragedy if the penalty for being caught was death? We not only save the life of the would-be rapist, we save the life of the victim. Is it "hate" for me to want to remedy this?

Fred

#120 Levi

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 10:37 PM

Levi, I disagree with this post. But before I answer, I think I addressed a lot of it in Post 12. I'm not a terribly fast typist and I'm a dinosaur on computers. While you're at it can you read Posts 3, 24, and 100 Then get back to me. What we must keep in mind, Levi, is that our personal opinions on any issue do not really matter. Everyone has a personal opinion. If our Ultimate Standard is not God and His word, then we can reach truth only by accident. And then we would not know if it's true.

TeeJay



Ok Well I'll simplify my position. Should Gods moral laws be in force today? If they should they would! It really is that simple because God ordains all sovereigns authorities and rulers, its a fact. It is also a fact that God grants you, I and everyone one on earth the desires of our hearts. If a nation desires debauchery and wickedness then those are the law makers they will get.

I live in New Zealand and I saw many a good Christian burn out because there was an unstoppable tied of wickedness which lead to all sorts of moral roundabouts in our laws. It is a waste of time and your precious energy worrying about the lining up of judgment on your nation, It WILL come.

You can not stop it.

What you can do is be a light and bring others to cross when they know they have sinned against God, they all know because the law of God is 'written on their hearts' it is the knowledge of good and evil and NONE are without excuse, otherwise God would be seen to be unjust if He condemns.

People NEVER come to the truth by accident, HE comes to them through US!~

I am very hesitant to accept preachers of the law because the book of Hebrews mentions trampling the blood and sinning beyond repentance, the whole book is about not going back to the law but remaining in the grace of God. There is also a sect out there which is trying to do this and damn Christians (I'm not saying anything about you here, but I have seen their apostasy in action)

I have also had a bad personal experience where as a young Christian I repeated to an impressionable mind something a law preacher had said, The next day a young man of 17 was hanging by his neck from a beam.

I Love Jesus and the 'law was until John', The Law and the Prophets spoke of Him. Now so do I, law or no law He is the truth the way and the light.




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