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Old Earth Creationist Vs Theistic Evolutionist


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#1 Crous

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 04:52 AM

What is the difference between old earth creationist and a theistic evolutionist?
In my profile I want to be more specific in what my world view is.
I do not consider myself an old earthen creationist. I’m not convinced that the earth is 6000 years old.
Also I do not think that evolution as it is understood today is that whole story.

#2 Chanzui

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 05:55 AM

I would suggest that an Old Earth Creationist would describe themselves as being a Christian (or possibly Jewish or Muslim), who accepted the evidence that the Earth is several billions of years old, but who maintained the belief that the Universe and Earth were specifically created by a personal God and that the moral teaching of scripture were True, though those events described as historical (such as the flood) would be better understood as allegorical. They may also believe in the special creation of humankind - the Earth may be billions of years old and OTHER animals may evolve, but Humans were created specially and in God's own image.

A Theistic Evolutionist on the other hand would probably not describe themselves as being a member of an organized religion (though they might), and would accept the age of the Earth and Universe as being billions of years old, that humankind had evolved from a common ancestor with chimpanzees, and that Naturalism is the best way to understand the functioning of the Universe, though they would admit a faith in the existence of some kind of Higher Power, probable faith in the existence of a soul and an afterlife (or possibly reincarnation) and would likely ascribe the initial 'cause' of existence to this Higher Power.

Now these are just broad generalizations and there are bound to be differences and variations within the groups, but if someone came to me and asked me "I accept the Geological and Astronomical timescale, but I believe in God. Am I a Theistic Evolutionist or an Old Earth Creationist?" the questions I would ask are:

1. Do you believe in a personal God who created the Earth/Universe with a specific purpose?
2. Do you believe this purpose has been revealed through scripture?
3. Do you believe that humankind was specially created, or that humankind was the ultimate 'goal' of the universe's Creator?

If you answered 'Yes' to two or more of those questions I would describe you as an Old Earth Creationist. Otherwise I would call you a Theistic Evolutionist.

#3 Calypsis4

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 06:34 AM

I would suggest that an Old Earth Creationist would describe themselves as being a Christian (or possibly Jewish or Muslim), who accepted the evidence that the Earth is several billions of years old, but who maintained the belief that the Universe and Earth were specifically created by a personal God and that the moral teaching of scripture were True, though those events described as historical (such as the flood) would be better understood as allegorical. They may also believe in the special creation of humankind - the Earth may be billions of years old and OTHER animals may evolve, but Humans were created specially and in God's own image.

A Theistic Evolutionist on the other hand would probably not describe themselves as being a member of an organized religion (though they might), and would accept the age of the Earth and Universe as being billions of years old, that humankind had evolved from a common ancestor with chimpanzees, and that Naturalism is the best way to understand the functioning of the Universe, though they would admit a faith in the existence of some kind of Higher Power, probable faith in the existence of a soul and an afterlife (or possibly reincarnation) and would likely ascribe the initial 'cause' of existence to this Higher Power.

Now these are just broad generalizations and there are bound to be differences and variations within the groups, but if someone came to me and asked me "I accept the Geological and Astronomical timescale, but I believe in God. Am I a Theistic Evolutionist or an Old Earth Creationist?" the questions I would ask are:

1. Do you believe in a personal God who created the Earth/Universe with a specific purpose?
2. Do you believe this purpose has been revealed through scripture?
3. Do you believe that humankind was specially created, or that humankind was the ultimate 'goal' of the universe's Creator?

If you answered 'Yes' to two or more of those questions I would describe you as an Old Earth Creationist. Otherwise I would call you a Theistic Evolutionist.


An old earth creationist is one who doesn't believe Moses chronologies, nor the Chronicler, nor Matthew, nor Luke.

#4 Fred Williams

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 04:02 PM

What is the difference between old earth creationist and a theistic evolutionist?
In my profile I want to be more specific in what my world view is.
I do not consider myself an old earthen creationist. I'm not convinced that the earth is 6000 years old.
Also I do not think that evolution as it is understood today is that whole story.


The simplest answer is:

1) A theistic evolutionist thinks God started the big bang billions of years ago, and evolution pretty much did the rest from there.

2) An "Old Earth creationist" generally denies and fights against NeoDarwinism. There are generally two camps, with occasional cross-over between the two:


a. Progressive or 'day-age' creationist - those who treat the creation days as long eras (god created life over millions of years) and deny a global flood. They are sold on the geologic column and agree with the evolutionary timeline, but disagree that Ne-Darwinism can account for all life. Some self-proclaiming progressive creationists are borderline theistic evolutionists.
b. Gap theory creationist: Those who believe in a billions of years gap between Gen 1:1 ans 1:2, but from that point forward believe in a literal Genesis, including a global flood.


Here's the progression from conservative to liberal:

YEC -> Gap OEC -> Progressive OEC -> Theistic Evolutionist -> Atheist

FYI, Jesus was a YEC. :)

Fred

#5 Calypsis4

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 06:46 PM

The simplest answer is:

1) A theistic evolutionist thinks God started the big bang billions of years ago, and evolution pretty much did the rest from there.

2) An "Old Earth creationist" generally denies and fights against NeoDarwinism. There are generally two camps, with occasional cross-over between the two:


a. Progressive or 'day-age' creationist - those who treat the creation days as long eras (god created life over millions of years) and deny a global flood. They are sold on the geologic column and agree with the evolutionary timeline, but disagree that Ne-Darwinism can account for all life. Some self-proclaiming progressive creationists are borderline theistic evolutionists.
b. Gap theory creationist: Those who believe in a billions of years gap between Gen 1:1 ans 1:2, but from that point forward believe in a literal Genesis, including a global flood.


Here's the progression from conservative to liberal:

YEC -> Gap OEC -> Progressive OEC -> Theistic Evolutionist -> Atheist

FYI, Jesus was a YEC. :)

Fred


Amen! Jesus said that everything Moses said was true. Matthew 24. :D

#6 Crous

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:32 PM

I would suggest that an Old Earth Creationist would describe themselves as being a Christian (or possibly Jewish or Muslim), who accepted the evidence that the Earth is several billions of years old, but who maintained the belief that the Universe and Earth were specifically created by a personal God and that the moral teaching of scripture were True, though those events described as historical (such as the flood) would be better understood as allegorical. They may also believe in the special creation of humankind - the Earth may be billions of years old and OTHER animals may evolve, but Humans were created specially and in God's own image.

A Theistic Evolutionist on the other hand would probably not describe themselves as being a member of an organized religion (though they might), and would accept the age of the Earth and Universe as being billions of years old, that humankind had evolved from a common ancestor with chimpanzees, and that Naturalism is the best way to understand the functioning of the Universe, though they would admit a faith in the existence of some kind of Higher Power, probable faith in the existence of a soul and an afterlife (or possibly reincarnation) and would likely ascribe the initial 'cause' of existence to this Higher Power.

Now these are just broad generalizations and there are bound to be differences and variations within the groups, but if someone came to me and asked me "I accept the Geological and Astronomical timescale, but I believe in God. Am I a Theistic Evolutionist or an Old Earth Creationist?" the questions I would ask are:

1. Do you believe in a personal God who created the Earth/Universe with a specific purpose?
2. Do you believe this purpose has been revealed through scripture?
3. Do you believe that humankind was specially created, or that humankind was the ultimate 'goal' of the universe's Creator?

If you answered 'Yes' to two or more of those questions I would describe you as an Old Earth Creationist. Otherwise I would call you a Theistic Evolutionist.


Thank you for your answers. It helped. If I measure myself to the three questions you ask, I consider myself as n Old Earth Creationist.

#7 Crous

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:41 PM

An old earth creationist is one who doesn't believe Moses chronologies, nor the Chronicler, nor Matthew, nor Luke.

Can you please elaborate on this statement? I don’t understand what you are saying here.

#8 Crous

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 12:14 AM

FYI, Jesus was a YEC. :)

I do not think Jesus came to earth to teach us about origins.
Thanx I’ll have a look at this link.
.

#9 ikester7579

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 02:13 AM

I do not think Jesus came to earth to teach us about origins.
Thanx I’ll have a look at this link.
.


He did come to save His Father's creation. Do you think that the Old Testament is null and void, full of myths and lies about false timelines showing that God was to weak to keep His own Word true? And if so, how will you answer when the same book you imply has lies is the same book in which you will be judged by?

Example: If you write a book that you claim is absolutely true. And I read it and disagree with more than half of what you say, am I not calling you a liar?

Questions:
1) Did Christ die for a lie that His Father told? Because if Christ dies for our sins He had to also Die for His Father's sins if His Word lies.
2) And since God cannot tell a lie, does not that also mean that if one part is lie the whole things is a lie?
3) How can God be a righteous judge for our sins when He sins in His own word is it's not true?

Something to make you ponder: If you are claiming to be Christian and only go halfway in your faith and belief, then what was the point in the first place?

#10 Fred Williams

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 12:01 PM

I do not think Jesus came to earth to teach us about origins.
Thanx I'll have a look at this link.
.


Sure, no problem. I was an OEC for 30 years. To be honest, what converted me to YEC, I'm kind of weird this way, was the scientific evidence (it caused me to start taking the Bible more seriously, up to that point I was pretty darn ignorant and carnal). Most former OECers I've met over the years claim it was the plain rendering of scripture. This is purely anecdotal, but the most common conundrum they mentioned wasn't necessarily the straightforward text of Genesis 1, but instead what won them over was the death before sin problem.

Fred

#11 Calypsis4

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 01:51 PM

Can you please elaborate on this statement? I don’t understand what you are saying here.


The chronologies given in Genesis 5 & 10, The chronology in I Chronicles 1 in which the first dozen or so names are identical with Genesis; the geneaology of Jesus Christ which traces His life back to Abraham (mentioned in Genesis and Chronicles) and finally the family tree of our Lord as mentioned in Luke all can be used to get an approximate date of the creation at close to 6,000 yrs. There is no room for million yr dates...and even if the patriarchs had lived ten thousand years each it still could not be made compatible with Darwinian theory about time.

Understand that the geneology of the Lord Jesus Christ MUST be correct for Him to lay claim to the throne of David (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Best wishes.

#12 Crous

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 12:28 AM

Sure, no problem. I was an OEC for 30 years. To be honest, what converted me to YEC, I'm kind of weird this way, was the scientific evidence (it caused me to start taking the Bible more seriously, up to that point I was pretty darn ignorant and carnal). Most former OECers I've met over the years claim it was the plain rendering of scripture. This is purely anecdotal, but the most common conundrum they mentioned wasn't necessarily the straightforward text of Genesis 1, but instead what won them over was the death before sin problem.

Fred

The opposite happened to me. I was a YEC.

Deaf before sin.
Question. Before sin, if Adam slipped and fall of a cliff could he die? If not, did gravity work different then or was Adams body indestructible?

#13 Calypsis4

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 05:42 AM

I think you mean death...not deaf.

Best wishes.

#14 Crous

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:44 PM

I think you mean death...not deaf.

Best wishes.

Yes thanks.

#15 Ron

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:41 AM

I’m not convinced that the earth is 6000 years old.

Why? What empirical evidence do you possess that proves the Earth is older than six to ten thousand years old? And, if you do not possess such empirical evidence, how is your view anything more than opinion? And if it is nothing more than mere opinion, how is that opinion greater than Gods word?

In other words, what empirical evidence do you have that trumps the word of God?

Just curious at this point...


An old earth creationist is one who doesn't believe Moses chronologies, nor the Chronicler, nor Matthew, nor Luke.

Can you please elaborate on this statement? I don’t understand what you are saying here.



The word of God, as written don (or chronicled by) Moses, gave a literal rendering of creation (regardless of the liberal theologian’s attempts to re-interpret said scriptures). The OEC basically defies that word based upon their presupposed opinion of some natural observances that they CANNOT empirically support. Jesus, in Mathew and Luke (as well as Mark and John), supports the words of Moses whenever He (Jesus) speaks on the scriptures of the Old Testament. Therefore, the OEC is also defying the words of Jesus, in this aspect, as well.

The OEC, if they consider themselves “Christian”, then must ask themselves; “does my opinion override the words of God through Moses, and the words of Jesus, when it comes to Creation? I other words, who’s opinion carries more weight, the OEC, or God?

I do not think Jesus came to earth to teach us about origins.


Jesus came here to teach us a great many things. And I think it’s safe to say, whenever Jesus was speaking, he was teaching. So we have to ask ourselves (as Christians), did Jesus talk about and/or support the validity of the Old Testament? Further, are the words of the Old Testament then valid? Can we trust the words of the Old Testament, or can we simply brush aside those which we don’t agree with, or don’t like?




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