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After The Cross, Was Peter Under Law Or Grace?


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#61 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 07:52 PM

I must point out to you that your statement above, that we only "have one teacher" is not Biblically true. I think what you're referring to is Luke 12:12:

Not that one. Keep looking.

#62 Air-run

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 01:06 AM

If you read my post carefully, it does not say, “Go to the gentiles first.” It says, “… to NOT go to the Gentiles first.”


Oops, that was a typo - I meant Israel, not gentiles. I know your post implies the Acts verse gives instructions NOT to go to the Gentiles first. My point was that the verse doesn't say that - YOU are saying that. Reread the verse, there is no hierarchy given to preaching locale. Instructions were to go to "both."

And this may come as a shock to you. Are you sitting down? The Twelve did not fulfill their Great Commission. God cut off Israel. God cut off Israel. God cut off Israel. God cut off Israel. How can Israel go to the “remotest parts of the earth” with a gospel of circumcision that had been replaced with Paul and the gospel of uncircumcision.


Except that Paul calls believers "Israel" and the children of Abraham. That is how Israel can go to the remotest parts of the earth. That is how all the nations of the earth will be blessed through Israel - because believers (spiritual Israel) are in every corner of the earth. Will national Jews ever be in every corner of the earth?

Not exactly tradition. For millennia, God had commanded the Jews to have nothing to do with Gentile dogs (Ex. 34:12-15). God also prohibited Jews from marrying Gentiles (Gen. 24:3; 28:1; Ex. 34:16; Deut. 7:3). The Mosaic discouraged any social intercourse with Gentiles (Deut. 20:18; and also see Judges 3:5-6).


That's because most Gentiles were pagan idolaters and God didn't want their practices to infect Israel. However, if someone was humble and repentant, they could join Israel. As a symbolic example, everyone under Abraham's authority entered into the protective covering of circumcision - even the servants Abraham purchased. Rahab and her whole family were saved because of their obedience and dedication to Israel.

Air, can show me a verse where God tells Israel that they are not under law but under grace? Show me some verses where God says to Israel (not to Paul) that they no longer have to keep the Sabbath, circumcise, etc..

You can't handicap me with your beliefs. I don't subscribe to your dualistic gospel - so I am free to use Paul as my source.

Paul seems to be speaking pretty universally when he says "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything..." (Gal. 5:5)
or
"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." (I Cor 7:19)

Obviously, Paul can't be talking about all the ordinances and rules of the Law - because that included circumcision.

Paul doesn't say, as Gentiles circumcision means nothing. He says in Christ circumcision means nothing. So, if a Jewish convert is in Christ - circumcision means nothing. Does that mean circumcision is unholy and detestable? No. If a national Jewish convert wanted to continue this practice as a symbolic or cultural practice they were free to. What Paul was against is relying on circumcision for righteousness.

Why did Paul circumcise Timothy (Acts 16:3)?


It says right there in the verse: "Because of the Jews who were in those parts." I doesn't say, "Because God demanded it." The Jews would have had a difficult time accepting Timothy otherwise. Paul realized losing a little foreskin was nothing if they lost the chance to build up the churches and add converts.

And he claims that he is the first man saved under this new dispensation of the gospel of grace (1 Tim. 1:16).

Again - you are trying to squeeze ideas out of verses that aren't there. You didn't quote the verse, you quoted your interpretation. I don't know where you got that idea from. Nowhere does Paul say he is the first man saved under this new gospel. In that verse Paul says he is the "foremost" - referring to foremost sinner - not first convert. He says his conversion is an example of God's patience - something that would apply to both of your gospels. It is an example for those who would believe. This doesn't mean that he was the first to believe. He could say this even if thousands had believed prior to him.

Peter directs his first sermon in Acts to both Gentiles and Jews - saying the promise of God's Holy Spirit was for all mankind - for the children of Israel and for those who are "far off." This doesn't sound like Peter was primarily trying to get Israel to accept the Messiah as their king so Jesus could return and set up an earthly kingdom. Even from the beginning, Peter says the Kingdom of God, marked by the presence of the King dwelling in people's lives, was for EVERYONE.

Now today, we have confused Christians who falsely put themselves under the gospel of circumcision and perform phony miracles (lumbago, stiff knees, hard of hearing. But no person on an organ waiting donor list has ever been healed by Benny Hynn or Jessie Duplantis.

This is going to be totally off topic, but why not... Sounds like you think miracles have ended. No, Benny Hinn never healed anyone. Do you doubt that God healed anyone through Benny? Do you know that no person on an organ waiting donor list has never been healed? This past weekend I just witnessed a man at our church who has been deaf in one ear since his teens get healed when someone prayed for him.

The circumcision Jews were under the law and Jesus taught them to keep the law (Acts 15:21; Mat. 5:19; 23:23; 28:20; Acts 10:28).

Acts 10:28 is a good example. Peter says "you know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner." The Jews had a certain interpretation of what they thought the law was saying and what was important God. But, Peter says "yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean." God clears up the true understanding of the law and reveals what His heart is really about. This is what Paul affirms regarding circumcision - that the cutting away of the old man through the cross is what is really important, not the cutting away of some skin.

....You have to ignore that Peter fades off the scene after Paul is converted in Acts 9. You have to ignore that Jesus told the Twelve that miracles would follow them (immunity to snake bites and poison). You have to ignore James teaching on works verses Paul teaching the opposite. For you to assert that there is only one gospel, you have to willfully not want to accept the truth of Scripture.


I don't accept all your interpretations of Scripture - and to call your interpretations "truth" is a little presumptuous. Luke traveled with Paul - that's an easy answer as to why Acts deals more with Paul's adventures. Miracles still happen today amongst non-twelve-disciples. Most Christians fit James' teachings into Paul's without issues.

Do I agree with every statement made by everyone who claims to have a full view of truth? No. I'm sorry, but your persistent repetition of your ideas doesn't mean I will start with you. But, I won't claim I have absolute understanding of the truth. Not even studying for 50 years will guarantee me that.

I will be glad to answer any “specific questions” you may have. But I don’t want to present more scripture that will be rejected a priori.

If you can answer two questions: Are Gentiles in any way considered Israel? Are national Jews in any way not God's people and not heirs?

"For the sons of the bondwoman (Jerusalem - those born under the Law) shall not be an heir with the sons of the free woman (among whom are the Gentiles that Paul is writing - those who came to Christ by faith and not by the Law)."
(Gal. 4:30)

Do you have a different/better interpretation of that verse?

#63 Teejay

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 05:47 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1315277572' post='74756']
Not that one. Keep looking.
[/quote]

ME,

I'm sorry. I can't respond to vague Bible references. If you have a post you wish me to respond to, please post it.

TeeJay

#64 ikester7579

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 09:44 AM

ME,

I think on my next thread, I will post in Jason's name. After all I've posted here on this subject, please tell that you have more to say than this.

The purpose of this website is to debate and learn from each other. It would have been nice if you had given a rational argument as to "why" you disagree. Do you have a cogent argument that I can respond to?

Air is a worthy opponent who is quite capable of defending himself.

TeeJay


If you have frustrations for what is said, don't take it out in open forum. Also, we don't allow threads with members names to address them directly. If you have a problem you either settle it in the PMs of this forum. If you start a thread with a member's name it will be deleted.

Also if a member here pushes your buttons to where you don't think you can respond respectfully, we have an option on this forum that will solve that. You go into your control panel and add the member's name to you ignore list which will make their posts disappear (changes them into links instead of text so you don't have to read them unless you want to).

You have been warned.

#65 Teejay

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 04:33 PM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1315327469' post='74763']
If you have frustrations for what is said, don't take it out in open forum. Also, we don't allow threads with members names to address them directly. If you have a problem you either settle it in the PMs of this forum. If you start a thread with a member's name it will be deleted.

Also if a member here pushes your buttons to where you don't think you can respond respectfully, we have an option on this forum that will solve that. You go into your control panel and add the member's name to you ignore list which will make their posts disappear (changes them into links instead of text so you don't have to read them unless you want to).

You have been warned.
[/quote]

Ikester,

I respectfully would like to point out that I did not ever intend to post under Jason's name. I will admit that I was using a little humor, with a little bit of sarcasim, because ME "agrees" with Jason on just about everything while she "disagrees" with just about everything I post.

Perhaps I misunderstand the charges against me?

Before I reply further, I await your reply.

TeeJay

#66 Teejay

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:31 PM

[quote] name='Air-run' timestamp='1315296400' post='74759']
Oops, that was a typo - I meant Israel, not gentiles. I know your post implies the Acts verse gives instructions NOT to go to the Gentiles first. My point was that the verse doesn't say that - YOU are saying that. Reread the verse, there is no hierarchy given to preaching locale. Instructions were to go to "both."



Except that Paul calls believers "Israel" and the children of Abraham. That is how Israel can go to the remotest parts of the earth. That is how all the nations of the earth will be blessed through Israel - because believers (spiritual Israel) are in every corner of the earth. Will national Jews ever be in every corner of the earth?



That's because most Gentiles were pagan idolaters and God didn't want their practices to infect Israel. However, if someone was humble and repentant, they could join Israel. As a symbolic example, everyone under Abraham's authority entered into the protective covering of circumcision - even the servants Abraham purchased. Rahab and her whole family were saved because of their obedience and dedication to Israel.


You can't handicap me with your beliefs. I don't subscribe to your dualistic gospel - so I am free to use Paul as my source.

Paul seems to be speaking pretty universally when he says "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything..." (Gal. 5:5)
or
"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." (I Cor 7:19)

Obviously, Paul can't be talking about all the ordinances and rules of the Law - because that included circumcision.

Paul doesn't say, as Gentiles circumcision means nothing. He says in Christ circumcision means nothing. So, if a Jewish convert is in Christ - circumcision means nothing. Does that mean circumcision is unholy and detestable? No. If a national Jewish convert wanted to continue this practice as a symbolic or cultural practice they were free to. What Paul was against is relying on circumcision for righteousness.


It says right there in the verse: "Because of the Jews who were in those parts." I doesn't say, "Because God demanded it." The Jews would have had a difficult time accepting Timothy otherwise. Paul realized losing a little foreskin was nothing if they lost the chance to build up the churches and add converts.


Again - you are trying to squeeze ideas out of verses that aren't there. You didn't quote the verse, you quoted your interpretation. I don't know where you got that idea from. Nowhere does Paul say he is the first man saved under this new gospel. In that verse Paul says he is the "foremost" - referring to foremost sinner - not first convert. He says his conversion is an example of God's patience - something that would apply to both of your gospels. It is an example for those who would believe. This doesn't mean that he was the first to believe. He could say this even if thousands had believed prior to him.

Peter directs his first sermon in Acts to both Gentiles and Jews - saying the promise of God's Holy Spirit was for all mankind - for the children of Israel and for those who are "far off." This doesn't sound like Peter was primarily trying to get Israel to accept the Messiah as their king so Jesus could return and set up an earthly kingdom. Even from the beginning, Peter says the Kingdom of God, marked by the presence of the King dwelling in people's lives, was for EVERYONE.

This is going to be totally off topic, but why not... Sounds like you think miracles have ended. No, Benny Hinn never healed anyone. Do you doubt that God healed anyone through Benny? Do you know that no person on an organ waiting donor list has never been healed? This past weekend I just witnessed a man at our church who has been deaf in one ear since his teens get healed when someone prayed for him.

Acts 10:28 is a good example. Peter says "you know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner." The Jews had a certain interpretation of what they thought the law was saying and what was important God. But, Peter says "yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean." God clears up the true understanding of the law and reveals what His heart is really about. This is what Paul affirms regarding circumcision - that the cutting away of the old man through the cross is what is really important, not the cutting away of some skin.



I don't accept all your interpretations of Scripture - and to call your interpretations "truth" is a little presumptuous. Luke traveled with Paul - that's an easy answer as to why Acts deals more with Paul's adventures. Miracles still happen today amongst non-twelve-disciples. Most Christians fit James' teachings into Paul's without issues.

Do I agree with every statement made by everyone who claims to have a full view of truth? No. I'm sorry, but your persistent repetition of your ideas doesn't mean I will start with you. But, I won't claim I have absolute understanding of the truth. Not even studying for 50 years will guarantee me that.


If you can answer two questions: Are Gentiles in any way considered Israel? Are national Jews in any way not God's people and not heirs?

"For the sons of the bondwoman (Jerusalem - those born under the Law) shall not be an heir with the sons of the free woman (among whom are the Gentiles that Paul is writing - those who came to Christ by faith and not by the Law)."
(Gal. 4:30)

Do you have a different/better interpretation of that verse?
[/quote]

Air, I'm stopping right here. Why? I can only answer with Scripture. But when I do, you reject a straight forward reading of it and reinterpret to fit your worldview--denying that it says what it says? In a theological discussion, it's impossible to dialogue if a plain reading of Scripture will not be accepted.

You also wrongly believe that we have replaced Israel, even though I posted much Scripture to show that is a false belief. You also reject Israel getting an earthly kingdom. With these two false beliefs, you can't possibly accept what I've posted. It can be likened to the math student who makes an error at the beginning of the problem. He can never reach the correct answer unless he goes back and corrects his initial error. There is absolutely no Scripture or argument that I can post that you will accept. I must move on.

I have some interests in other subjects that I want to pursue.

God bless, TeeJay




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