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After The Cross, Was Peter Under Law Or Grace?


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#1 Teejay

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:00 PM

Hell all,

After the Cross, were Peter and his followers (Jews) still under the Mosaic law which included circumcision, Sabbath keeping, feasts, refraining from eating meat sacrificed to idols and so on?

Many Christians think that after the cross the Twelve were free from all the law (symbolic and moral) and saved under grace. But here's the kicker: They were free from all the law but were too stupid to know it. God had to bring a smart Jew (Paul) on the scene to explain it to them. In other words, Jesus picked twelve retards. Believe it or not, I've gotten this from some Christians.

Now today, we Christians who are members of the Christ's Body, are saved by grace. Were the Twelve saved by grace, as we are, without law keeping and works?

What's my position? Jump in. Tell me what you think. And you will find out?

TeeJay

#2 AFJ

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:23 PM

Hell all,

After the Cross, were Peter and his followers (Jews) still under the Mosaic law which included circumcision, Sabbath keeping, feasts, refraining from eating meat sacrificed to idols and so on?

Many Christians think that after the cross the Twelve were free from all the law (symbolic and moral) and saved under grace. But here's the kicker: They were free from all the law but were too stupid to know it. God had to bring a smart Jew (Paul) on the scene to explain it to them. In other words, Jesus picked twelve retards. Believe it or not, I've gotten this from some Christians.

Now today, we Christians who are members of the Christ's Body, are saved by grace. Were the Twelve saved by grace, as we are, without law keeping and works?

What's my position? Jump in. Tell me what you think. And you will find out?

TeeJay

In the eyes of God they were justified by faith in the atonement, and not the law. Morals are a given, but the ceremonial law, was not required for justification. They were however Jews, and raised Jewish. Peter had to be commanded by God to "rise and eat" what was under the law considered to be unclean. This happened three times, and becasue of it Cornelius and his gentile household was saved.

So my point is God no longer required the ceremonial law, BUT, I beleive it took teaching from the Holy Spirit and time for the apostles to fully realize this, hence the council in Jerusalem about whether gentiles had to be circumcised. At any rate, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, so much of the infastructure for the law went with it.

#3 Teejay

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 09:16 AM

[quote] name='AFJ' timestamp='1314246182' post='74566']
In the eyes of God they were justified by faith in the atonement, and not the law. Morals are a given, but the ceremonial law, was not required for justification. They were however Jews, and raised Jewish. Peter had to be commanded by God to "rise and eat" what was under the law considered to be unclean. This happened three times, and becasue of it Cornelius and his gentile household was saved.

So my point is God no longer required the ceremonial law, BUT, I beleive it took teaching from the Holy Spirit and time for the apostles to fully realize this, hence the council in Jerusalem about whether gentiles had to be circumcised. At any rate, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, so much of the infastructure for the law went with it.
[/quote]

AFJ,

Thank you for reminding me that I must make something clear. God can add "grace" to works. We do this ourselves everyday. We hire our neighbor's teen to cut our grass. We inspect it after he's done, and we find that he did not do a perfect job. But he gave it his best shot and he worked hard--and he's young. So we add a little grace to his work and pay him $20.

But God (or we) can't add works to grace. Grace is a free gift of love from God (Jesus' death on the Cross for us). Trying to pay God back for this gift is insulting. Let's look at an earthly example: A man works overtime all year to save the money to buy a diamond ring for his wife on their wedding aniversary. The husband presents her with the ring and instead of repaying him with her love, she offers to pay him $50 a month until the price of the ring is paid off. He would be deeply hurt.

Under the Gospel of Grace, we who are saved under it, should never attempt to pay Jesus for His sacrifice for us. First of all, it's not possible for us to pay that price. Jesus's sacrifice is of infinite value--a value that no man can ever repay. So, should we do good works? Yes, of course! But our motivation should not be the law. For if our motivation is law, then we are not doing good works or obeying moral law out of love for our neighbor or God; we are motivated by fear or obligation of the law.

The husband in heaven who brags that he has never been unfaithful to his wife will get no kudos when God reveals that he was faithful but he lusted after his neighbor's wife for 30 years. His motivation to not stray was not love for God and his wife; it was fear of getting caught. If there are frying pans in heaven, he will get one kver the head.

Now does this mean than Israel was not saved by grace? No. Peter said, basically, that if God does not cut us a little slack, we ain't going to make it (Acts 15:11). But this did not mean that the Jews could ignore the law. For Israel, as we will see, was under the Covenant of Circumcision or law. Although the law should not have been their motivation, they were still required to do good works and keep the law, "the weightier matters without leaving the lesser undone."

Now,AFJ, I want to give you a bit of a conundrum. God dragged Peter kicking and screaming to witness to the Gentile centurion Cornelius. What's interesting is that the Holy Spirit fell on these Gentiles WITHOUT THEM BEING CIRCUMCISED! "And those of the circumcision who believed WERE ASTONISHED" (Acts 10:45). Circumcisn was the gateway to the Abrahamic Covenant for not only the Jew but the Gentile as well to become a proselyte Jew. Now did this mean that Peter and his followers could ignore the rite of circumcision? Before you answer, consider some Scripture.

First, we should realize that circumcision for Israel was a perpetual covenant. "This is My covenant which you shall keep between Me and you and YOUR DESCENDANTS AFTER YOU. Every male child among you shall be circumcised" (Gen. 17:10). For Israel, God said that circumcision is an everlasting for Abraham and all his descendants.

Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh or foreskin. Why did God give this strange ritual? Circumcision is a synonym for the Law. Israel had to circumcise and keep the law, as the effort to keep the law is a “cutting off of the flesh.” Paul wrote, “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit [God], and the Spirit against the flesh…” (Gal. 5:17-19).

For Israel, the Law Was Not Optional

Jesus Christ was born a Jew under the Covenant of Circumcision, and He was circumcised strictly according to the Law on the eighth day after His birth (Luke 2:21). The thought just occurred to me that Jesus (God) made a contract with Abraham. Then He came and fulfilled Abraham’s obligation of the contract. Wouldn’t it be nice to make a contract with a car dealer and have the dealer pay for the car?
“And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off [killed] from his people; he has broken My covenant.” Gen. 17:14

"And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him [Moses] and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses feet, and said, 'Surely you are a husband of blood to me!' So He let him [Moses] go. Then she said, 'You are a husband of blood!'—because of the circumcision…." Ex. 4:24-26

Moses learned firsthand how serious God was about circumcision. After working with Moses for eighty years, God sought to kill him because he failed to circumcise his son by his Midianite wife Zipporah. And his pagan Midianite wife did not take kindly to having to cut off the foreskin of her perfectly healthy son. But had she not, God would have killed Moses. Under Moses, Israel would learn also that failure to obey some of these commands meant a death penalty, even though some laws were symbolic and not moral nor immoral. The first man to violate the Sabbath law was executed (Num. 15:33-35).

Perpetual Laws for Israel

We have already seen that Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is ”an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement for Israel to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

AFJ, let's stick with circumcision for now. As we go along, I will show that many other laws are also perpetual covenants with Israel. The destruction of the temple really had nothing to do with God's covenant of circumcision being forbidden by Paul. It was the cutting of of Israel for unbelief. But Paul warns replacement theologians: "For God has cut them off, but He will graft them [Israel] in again." When Israel is grafted in again, will God again deal with them under the Covenant of Circumcision? That's what we will determine.

TeeJay

#4 Fred Williams

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 04:43 PM

TeeJay, thanks for taking the time to share this.

This view was foreign to my ears until a couple years ago, but I was unable to refute it with scripture so I ultimately began to embrace it. All, please remember that we all head in to any new idea, regardless of its truth or lack thereof, with a pre-conceived bias. I would just ask those reading this and fuming out the ears to consider the following - does your rebuttal and accompanying scripture also accommodate (deal with) the scripture TeeJay provided? Our viewpoint should accommodate all of scripture, not just the verses we are using and familiar with to support our position.

As an example, I'll change the question from Peter to James, another Jew. In Acts 21, James agrees the Gentiles are not under the law, but gently rebukes Paul that the believing Jews are still zealous for the law, just as Paul, also a Jew, also still walks orderly and keeps the law (Acts 21:20-24). Paul does not disagree and partakes in the purification ritual requested by James! Why would Paul do this? Paul certainly had no problem rebuking apostles for their error, as he did with Peter. Is it possible the Jews at that time were under a transition gospel that included works (Galatians 2:7, Hebrews 8:13)? I've seen the arguments against this (such as Gal 1:6-7), but they were not convincing because they seldom account for the opposition verses, such as Acts 21 and those raised by TeeJay. I believe the "two gospel" position TeeJay is advocating easily accommodates verses like Galatians 1:6-7, in fact the unorthodox wording of verse 7 would seem to be an attempt to make clear that the false gospel "is not the one, or that other one".

Just asking... I'm still working through all this myself.... Any verses that falsify what TeeJay is suggesting (a verse that TeeJay's position cannot accommodate)?

Fred

#5 Teejay

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 06:00 PM

Hello all,

I want to point out that "circumcision" is a synonym for law. And circumcision is key to understanding the Bible and unraveling many of the conundrums we encounter in the New Testament. Circumcision trumped Sabbath keeping. If the eighth day for a Jewish male baby fell on the Sabbath, then the positive command to circumcise trumped the Sabbath law not to work and the Sabbath could be profaned. Symbolic law such as circumcision, Sabbath law, diet restrictions, clothing was symbolic, was neither moral nor immoral, and pointed to Christ. While the Sabbath law could be profaned to keep circumcison law or feed a hungry man, one could never violate one moral law to keep from violating another moral law (buying a prostitute to keep from raping, for example). As we proceed, it will be shown that many of these symbolic law for Israel are perpetual, everlasting, for as long as there is an Israel, for as long as there are descendants of Abraham--forever.

The first covenant that God made with Abraham was the Covenant of Grace: “[Abraham] believed in the Lord, and He [God] accounted it to him for righteousness” (Gen. 15:6). Paul used this centuries later as his argument for grace: “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something of which to boast…. For what does the Scripture say” ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness’” (Rom. 4:2-3). This covenant was the first covenant that God made with Abraham. NO WORKS WERE REQUIRED BY ABRAHAM! In fact, God put Abraham to sleep.

The second covenant was the covenant of Circumcision (or works or the law). Years later, God insisted that Abraham circumcise himself (OUCH!). Why? Circumcision was a sign of the agreement between God and Abraham’s descendants who would become known as people of the Circumcision (Jews): “and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me [God] and you [Abraham and your descendants]” (Gen. 17:11).

Circumcision, although symbolic, was not optional for the Jews. God almost killed Moses because he did not circumcise his son born to Midionite wife Zipporah: “And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment that the Lord met him [Moses] and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah [Moses wife] took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, ‘Surely you are a husband of blood to me!’ So He let him [Moses] go. Then she said, ‘You are a husband of blood!’ because of the circumcision” (Ex. 4:24-26)

Now having said all this, why this unusual circumcision ritual? Recall that these laws were symbolic, neither moral nor immoral, were for the Jews only, and pointed to Jesus. Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh. Jesus Christ (God the Son) became flesh, and was cut off. God told Abraham: “He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:13). God had also said to Abraham, “in you all” nations will be blessed (Gen. 12:3), and in Abraham, because Jesus came from Abraham’s loins, and from David’s body (2 Sam. 7:12). Thus, the Covenant of Circumcision pointed to Jesus Christ, who “became flesh” (John 1:14) and then the “Messiah” was “cut off” (Dan. 9:26; Mat. 27:46, 50). The Jews, called the Circumcision, the people of the Covenant of Circumcision, were themselves cut off (Rom. 11:20, 22). So, too, Christ, the King of the Jews (Mat. 2:2; 27:11), became flesh and was cut off. Thus the circumcision of Jesus Christ according to the Law on the eighth day (Luke 2:21) foreshadowed the very purpose of His coming. Consider also that God used the Hebrew word silver when He said to Abraham, “he who is bought with your money [silver].” Then recall two things: that the High Priest bought Christ with “thirty pieces of silver” from Judas (Mat. 26:15); and also that Jesus was born a Jew. Thus, throughout all history, He was the One both “born in your house [Israel] and… bought with your silver.” Thus the Covenant of Circumcision uniquely pointed to Christ.
And we must also realize that the Covenant of Circumcision represented the law. Jesus Christ became flesh and voluntarily was circumcised and baptized thus putting Himself under the very covenant that He made with Abraham. While Abraham’s descendants were unable to keep the Covenant of Circumcision (the law), Jesus Christ did keep the law perfectly and fulfilled the covenant which Abraham and the Jews could not keep. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to buy a car and have the car salesman come around to your side of the table and pay for the car? But in reality, that is exactly what God did for us.

TeeJay

#6 Fred Williams

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 07:30 AM

As we proceed, it will be shown that many of these symbolic law for Israel are perpetual, everlasting, for as long as there is an Israel, for as long as there are descendants of Abraham--forever.


What is your take on Messianic Jews? I currently believe their salvation is no different than the rest of the world, aka grace only. It seems Hebrews 8:13 hints at a transition out of the Old Covenant for Jews.

Fred

#7 Teejay

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:35 AM

[quote] name='Fred Williams' timestamp='1314369009' post='74586']
What is your take on Messianic Jews? I currently believe their salvation is no different than the rest of the world, aka grace only. It seems Hebrews 8:13 hints at a transition out of the Old Covenant for Jews.

Fred
[/quote]

Fred,

Good question and something that is often misinterpretd. In Galatians 3:27-28 Paul writes, "For as many of you as were baptized [by the Holy Spirit] into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are ll one in Christ [members of His Body]." When Paul taught this it was startling to a Jew, for there was a big difference between male and female, slave or free, and especially Jew and Gentile dogs. So, for a Jew back in Paul's day, this was tantamont to teaching that one did not have to get circumcised. As we say in Texas, "this is a hangin' offence." Many Christians erroneously use this verse to justify putting women in spiritual authority over men (pastors).

Before Paul, a Jewish man came under the Abrahamic Covenant of Circumcision (or law) when he was circumcised on the eithth day. Jesus voluntarily placed Himself under His own law that He gave to Abraham. And Jesus did what Abraham or we could not do--He kept and fulfilled His law perfectly. A Jewish female came under this covenant when she was born to a Jewish man or married a Jewish man. A Gentile came under it when he became a proselyte Jew. (He had to be circumcised.) And a slave came under it when he had a Jewish master.

But Paul is showing that under his new dispensation of grace gospel there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. It matters not if our father is a Jew. Jews, Gentiles, slaves, freemen, males, females--we all gain entry into the Body of Christ when we accept Jesus Christ in accordance with Romans 10:9-10. When we do this, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:13).

Whereas God had a "national" or corporate relationship with Israel, He has an individual relationship with us as members in His Body. And the Body of Christ is international. It matters not if we are Jews, Chinese or Zulu, we call can approach God directly, bypassing Israel and the need to get circumcised and keep the law, "the weightier matters without leaving the lesser undone" as Jesus commanded of the Jews.

Today, when Jews accept their Messiah, they label themselves "Messianic" Jews. They are really no different than any other Christian, for God's dispensation of grace for us through Paul is for every human on Planet Earth, regardless of his ethnic background. Now this gives me no heartburn. It may enable them to better witness to other Jews?

There are many religious leaders (Hagee comes to mind) who erroneously teach that the Jews can be saved under a special dispensation withou Christ. They could not be more wrong if they were Mormons. Since Paul, God's dispensation is a grace gospel (no works or law). One can't say to God, "No thank you, God, I've got my own sheet of music that I play off of." It's God's way or the highway.

Hagee had a program where he was flying Jewish orphans out of Russia and taking them to an orphanage in Israel run by an unsaved Jewish Rabbi. I wrote him a letter asking him why in the world he was not flying these kids to a Christian orphanage. I pointed out to him that they would never hear the gospel from a Jewish Rabbi. He rebuked me with an angry letter. Confused Bible teaching can have dire consequences. The problem is that these national Christian figures like Hagee become unreachable and unteachable. They eventually get to a position so high and lofty that they would rebuke John the Baptist himself.

TeeJay

#8 Air-run

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:35 AM

First, we should realize that circumcision for Israel was a perpetual covenant


You know what else was permanent? The day of atonement was given as a "permanent statute" (Lev. 16:29). They had to make special sacrifices for sin once a year - it was a day to practice humility. Do you think atonement sacrifices are still binding on Jews because they were set up to be "permanent?"

The only reason they had to be done every year was because once was not enough to get the job done. In fact, the atonement sacrifice could never get the job done (Heb. 10:4). Since Christ has fulfilled the atonement sacrifice with his one sufficient sacrifice for all time, there is no need for a continual sacrifice - therefore, what was once a permanent statute has been absorbed by a greater covenant. There is no longer a need for the physical goat sacrifice once the eternal spiritual sacrifice has been made (Heb. 10:18).

In the same way, while circumcision had symbolic value to the OT Jews, its value has been superseded by the greater spiritual reality. Paul affirms that "circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter..."

The greater spiritual reality is a redefining of what circumcision really is. Yes circumcision is forever important and necessary for all people, both Jews and Gentiles, but true circumcision is not of the flesh--it is of the heart. Moreover, it is fully accomplished when we are "baptized" into Christ (Col. 2:11)(Phil 3:3), whether you are born of Gentile flesh or Jewish flesh.

Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement for Israel to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament.


Who says Israel still has to obey the command of the physical cutting? You? As with the sacrifice of atonement, the perpetual physical statute gets absorbed by the greater spiritual reality. Circumcision of the heart isn't a metaphor for the physical act. The physical act is a metaphor for spiritual circumcision - which is the greater reality.

Yes, circumcision is necessary - and it is fulfilled once we are in Christ. Once you are in Christ, and are truly circumcised, the physical cutting of the skin has no value to you - just as once you are in Christ, the shedding of a goat's blood once a year has no value for you.

Things are a little opposite in the new covenant in Christ. While you had to get circumcised and obey the law to partake of the old covenant - under the new covenant we become spiritually circumcised and spiritually fulfill the whole law AFTER we enter into the new covenant (Rom. 8:4).

As we proceed, it will be shown that many of these symbolic law for Israel are perpetual, everlasting, for as long as there is an Israel, for as long as there are descendants of Abraham--forever.


And there will be descendants of Abraham forever - descendants by faith. Christians are the true descendants of Abraham (Rom. 9:6). Paul makes it clear that not all the people born into Israel are truly "Israel", nor are they all Abraham's descendants. This means that you could be a national Jew but not a true spiritual "Jew". Christians are the true "Israel" and we will always be marked by the true circumcision by faith. Fleshly circumcision is a "mere shadow" and is of "no value against fleshly indulgence." (Col. 2:23)

Paul does not disagree and partakes in the purification ritual requested by James! Why would Paul do this? Paul certainly had no problem rebuking apostles for their error, as he did with Peter. Is it possible the Jews at that time were under a transition gospel that included works (Galatians 2:7, Hebrews 8:13)?

Fred, shouldn't we rely on clear teachings of scripture, and not try and deduce doctrine from happenstance? We don't know everything that went on in Paul's mind during that story in Acts. We have a clearer picture in Paul's epistles - and I don't gather anything from those two vague references that clearly imply a transitional gospel.

#9 jason

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 04:38 AM

teejay by that circumcision thought, i as a jew must still be under the law. forever is forever.

aeon in that whole bible context cant mean forever but for an indefinite period. God cant change his mind?

and a remnamt of isreal is saved,so if only that remnant during the age of grace by what covenant are they under? the law or the new covenant? the messainic jews dont follow the torah laws fully. THEY CANT.THE TEMPLE ISNT BUILT and they neither would teach animal sacrifices are needed.i know i have a good friend that is one. they follow the dietary laws and feasts, and do the rosh hoshana thing but it isnt needed for salvation. just a way to reach the jews and get them to christ and they teach the tanakh far better then the gentile churches do.

they will NEVER SAY THE LAW WITH CHRIST IS THE WAY. ONLY THE BLOOD CLEANSES.I HAVE THE FREEDOM to keep the feasts.but i dont have too.i also know of a christian woman who celebrates channukah instead of christmas. i can see christ in that talmudic tradition. but again not needed nor required for salvation.

often to some jews the messianics are a hinderance to those that converted and dont follow that torah as they see they are set free from that.

#10 MamaElephant

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 05:27 AM

Fred, shouldn't we rely on clear teachings of scripture, and not try and deduce doctrine from happenstance? We don't know everything that went on in Paul's mind during that story in Acts.

I think we do know what was on Paul's mind. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23; 10:23-30; Romans 14

If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.

But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
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#11 Teejay

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:10 AM

[quote] name='Air-run' timestamp='1314434119' post='74590']
You know what else was permanent? The day of atonement was given as a "permanent statute" (Lev. 16:29). They had to make special sacrifices for sin once a year - it was a day to practice humility. Do you think atonement sacrifices are still binding on Jews because they were set up to be "permanent?"[/quote]

Air, you surprise me with your last question to Fred! You want to cut me off before you even hear the argument? I'll let Fred answer it.

Air, This is a very good point! Not only the day of atonement, but God gave Israel other laws that were “perpetual” and “everlasting.” Let’s look:

The Lord gave many symbolic commands including circumcision, the feasts, and the Sabbath to Israel as “everlasting statutes.” But none of these apply to us, today, in the Body of Christ. Note the Jewish purpose of the Sabbath:
”’Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath… throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…’” Ex. 31:16-17.

But Paul writes, “Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow [sign] of things to come, but the substances is of Christ” (Col. 2:16-17). But Jesus, teaching of the coming Tribulation, warns His followers: “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath [after the Cross]” (Mat. 24:20).
Notice the difference between Paul writing to his uncircumcision believers (Jew and Gentile, slave and free, male and female) and God’s message to Israel. Now, above we have God clearing stating that for Israel these laws are “perpetual” and “everlasting.” So either God was lying or they are indeed forever for Israel.

Air, you asked if I think the Day of Atonement is still binding on Jews today. The answer is no. But, you must realize that when Israel was cut off and Paul was commissioned by God and given the gospel of grace, all Jews are saved the same as Gentiles under grace with no law or works—faith only. But when God comes back to the nation of Israel to give them their kingdom, Jews will be required to circumcise, keep the Sabbaths, and the other perpetual feasts—forever, as long as there are descendants of Abraham.

[quote]The only reason they had to be done every year was because once was not enough to get the job done. In fact, the atonement sacrifice could never get the job done (Heb. 10:4). Since Christ has fulfilled the atonement sacrifice with his one sufficient sacrifice for all time, there is no need for a continual sacrifice - therefore, what was once a permanent statute has been absorbed by a greater covenant. There is no longer a need for the physical goat sacrifice once the eternal spiritual sacrifice has been made (Heb. 10:18).[/quote]

If you are saved under Paul’s dispensation of grace, this is true. For a Jew under the Gospel of Circumcision or law, this was not true. Failure to circumcise under the covenant of circumcision was a death penalty. Failure to observe the Sabbath law was a death penalty. Let’s quote Lev 16:31: “It [the Day of Atonement] is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you... It is a statute FOREVER.”

[quote]In the same way, while circumcision had symbolic value to the OT Jews, its value has been superseded by the greater spiritual reality. Paul [/quote]

Air, recall that I wrote and showed that circumcision is a synonym for the law. Israel was the “people of the circumcision” or the law. When a Jew was circumcised on the eighth day, he automatically came under the Covenant of Circumcision. God’s positive command to circumcise on the eighth day trumped the negative command to not work on the Sabbath. So if the Sabbath law is in effect forever, then circumcision is also perpetual. And yes, Paul rightly taught that we are not to get circumcised as a religious rite, for to do so puts one under the law. Paul wrote that if you get circumcised you are then required to keep the whole law. But Paul was under a different dispensation than Israel.

[quote]The greater spiritual reality is a redefining of what circumcision really is. Yes circumcision is forever important and necessary for all people, both Jews and Gentiles, but true circumcision is not of the flesh--it is of the heart. Moreover, it is fully accomplished when we are "baptized" into Christ (Col. 2:11)(Phil 3:3), whether you are born of Gentile flesh or Jewish flesh. [/quote]

Circumcision is not necessary for all people. Paul warns that if any of his followers got circumcised, they were required to keep the whole law. But for Israel, under their Covenant of Circumcision, obeying God’s law to circumcise on the eighth day was not optional.


[quote]Who says Israel still has to obey the command of the physical cutting? You? As with the sacrifice of atonement, the perpetual physical statute gets absorbed by the greater spiritual reality. Circumcision of the heart isn't a metaphor for the physical act. The physical act is a metaphor for spiritual circumcision - which is the greater reality.[/quote]

No. God. I do not have authority to make law or nullify law. God has reserved that right for Himself.



[quote]Yes, circumcision is necessary - and it is fulfilled once we are in Christ. Once you are in Christ, and are truly circumcised, the physical cutting of the skin has no value to you - just as once you are in Christ, the shedding of a goat's blood once a year has no value for you.[/quote]

If you are saved by the Dispensation of Grace that was given to Paul. No so if you were a Jew under Peter’s ministry.



[quote]Things are a little opposite in the new covenant in Christ. While you had to get circumcised and obey the law to partake of the old covenant - under the new covenant we become spiritually circumcised and spiritually fulfill the whole law AFTER we enter into the new covenant (Rom. 8:4).[/quote]


But you could not write the above and be correct prior to Paul.



[quote]And there will be descendants of Abraham forever - descendants by faith. Christians are the true descendants of Abraham (Rom. 9:6). Paul makes it clear that not all the people born into Israel are truly "Israel", nor are they all Abraham's descendants. This means that you could be a national Jew but not a true spiritual "Jew". Christians are the true "Israel" and we will always be marked by the true circumcision by faith. Fleshly circumcision is a "mere shadow" and is of "no value against fleshly indulgence." (Col. 2:23)[/quote]

Yikes! Air, I must warn you that you are on dangerous ground! When you write, “Christians are the true Israel,” you are into Replacement Theology. The JW’s and the Mormons teach this. Paul warns us clearly: “For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN. And so all Israel will be saved...” (Rom. 11:25-26). God loves Abraham and He has a covenant with him that He will fulfill.


[quote]Fred, shouldn't we rely on clear teachings of scripture, and not try and deduce doctrine from happenstance? We don't know everything that went on in Paul's mind during that story in Acts. We have a clearer picture in Paul's epistles - and I don't gather anything from those two vague references that clearly imply a transitional gospel.
[/quote]


No. The perpetual laws for Israel can’t possibly be transitional. Paul accommodated James to “keep peace in the family. Paul was teaching his followers (Jews and Gentiles) did not have to circumcise and keep the law. For the Jews, this was 180 degrees in opposition to what Jesus commanded of Israel. As a former Pharisee and as a duly appointed apostle, Paul could show James’ followers that Paul did not deem God’s law for the Jews for Israel of no value. But would Paul ever allow any of his followers to put themselves under the law? NO.

Air, one simple question: If the Jews were not under Sabbath law after the Cross, why did Jesus warn His followers of the coming Tribulation (after the Cross): "Pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath."?

TeeJay

#12 Teejay

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:22 AM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1314445116' post='74591']
teejay by that circumcision thought, i as a jew must still be under the law. forever is forever.

aeon in that whole bible context cant mean forever but for an indefinite period. God cant change his mind?

and a remnamt of isreal is saved,so if only that remnant during the age of grace by what covenant are they under? the law or the new covenant? the messainic jews dont follow the torah laws fully. THEY CANT.THE TEMPLE ISNT BUILT and they neither would teach animal sacrifices are needed.i know i have a good friend that is one. they follow the dietary laws and feasts, and do the rosh hoshana thing but it isnt needed for salvation. just a way to reach the jews and get them to christ and they teach the tanakh far better then the gentile churches do.

they will NEVER SAY THE LAW WITH CHRIST IS THE WAY. ONLY THE BLOOD CLEANSES.I HAVE THE FREEDOM to keep the feasts.but i dont have too.i also know of a christian woman who celebrates channukah instead of christmas. i can see christ in that talmudic tradition. but again not needed nor required for salvation.

often to some jews the messianics are a hinderance to those that converted and dont follow that torah as they see they are set free from that.
[/quote]

Jason, I don't mean to be disrespectful but I think I answered this in Post 7. If you have any particular question on this post I will be glad to answer. In short, unless you were born over 2,000 years ago and saved by Peter's ministry, you are saved by grace.

TeeJay

#13 Teejay

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:49 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1314448048' post='74593']
I think we do know what was on Paul's mind. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23; 10:23-30; Romans 14

If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.

But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
[/quote]

ME, your last paragraph so clearly shows that Paul was walking a tight-rope. God had given him the gospel of grace. What he was teaching his followers was new--don't get circumcised, don't keep the Sabbath, don't keep the feasts, and so on. Most of Paul's persecution did not come from Gentiles; it came from believing Jews. God would turn his back and believing Pharisees would come into his church and teach that they had to be circumcised according to the law of Moses to be saved. Paul would come back and go postal: "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit [saved by grace] are you now made perfect by the law? I fear for you!"

Jews were forbidden to eat meat sacrificed to idols in pagan temples. So if a Jew went to dinner at someone's house, and they were afraid that the meat could have been bought at the pagan temple, then they would refrain eating meat and only eat vegetables. And, of course, the Jews had clean foods and unclean foods. This had nothing to do with diet, but foods were clean or unclean with regard to sacrifice. Recall that Noah took clean and unclean animals on the Ark and this was before God allowed men to eat animals.

Now Paul's followers were free from dietary laws. Paul told them they could eat meat sacrificed to idols (1 Cor. 8:3) and to let no one judge them in food or drink (Col. 2:16-17). But Paul warned his followers that if they were eating with a Jewish brother who would be offended, then to refrain from eating the meat. I do the same if I am having Pizza with a Baptist. I do not have a beer with my pizza. Love for our brother trumps our freedom from the law. If I can, I try to politely teach him that "what God forbids, let no man permit and what God permits, let no man forbid.

Now whiles Paul can tell his followers not to worry about eating meat sacrificed to idols, what does Jesus say to the nation of Israel or the "people of the circumcision." Wrting to the church at Pergamos, Jesus said, "I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling stone before the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS..." (Rev. 2:14). Now Paul says just the opposite of Jesus. Who's right? Both are.

Paul is talking to followers saved under God's new dispensation of grace. Jesus is talking to Jews. John wrote Revelation to "the seven churches which are in Asia." Now lest I get an argument that these churches were not Jews, read Rev. 2:9 and 3:9.

TeeJay

#14 jason

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:20 AM

paul seems to say this in romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


odd, you claim the present jews such as myself, so God again goes back on his word and changes his mind again? did you ever think all alone that jesus was the plan since genesis? yes its said to eve of they seed there shall arise a deliver! not abraham. again why is it important for the temple. sorry the kingdom of God has both jews and gentiles in it, the promise given to isreal is a land promise. why would god tell the jews that died, opp back to the land and do the torah all over again because you were faithful? and to me thou stay in heaven while i teach the jews of the hamashiac they knew about by faith(the ot saints worked in faith, if you doubt read what God said of joshua, and caleb for they have a different spirit. and even works now. so i guess in pauls day those jews in the majority after him werent jews?

i know a messianic jew who believes as i do.he is very knowlegdable on the torah and tanakh.it would be easy for me to leave christ and just to do what you say.


from a quick search:

http://www.didgodlie.com/who_is.html
HE BROUGHT SALVATION TO THE GENTILES.

Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth." 700 B.C.E.

Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 700 B.C.E.

Zechariah 2:10-11 [10] "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. [11] "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 520 B.C.E.

Note that in Biblical usage the Gentiles are often referred to as "the nations."

Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Yeshua. [15] Aware of this, Yeshua withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope."



and from that site.

the law teaches not saves, interesting leave to spirit lead jew to say that.

Practices vary among congregations.) Messianic Jews observe traditional Jewish holidays such as Purim and Chanukah, the ninth of Av and the Ten Days of Awe.


Messianic Jews observe the biblical feasts such as the Feasts of Trumpets, Tabernacles and Passover.


Messianic Jews worship on the biblical sabbath, i.e., Friday evening till Saturday.


Messianic Jews cant the Sh'ma, the kiddush and motzi, the Aaronic benediction, Etz Chaim, and many other parts of traditional Jewish liturgy.


Messianic Jews say kaddish for those who have passed on.

Messianic Jews cant the Torah portion in Hebrew at worship services.

Messianic Jews bar mitzvah their sons and bat mitzvah their daughters.

Messianic preaching is mainly from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), although references to the B'rit Chadasha (New Covenant) are not unusual.


Messianic Judaism emphasizes the special relationship between G-d and the Jewish people.


Messianic Judaism emphasizes Jewish traditions that do not conflict with the Bible.


Messianic Jews understand that G-d never changed the way to obtain salvation: "And Abraham believed G-d and it was credited to him [Abraham] as righteousness." The purpose of following the Torah (often mistranslated "Law", but literally, "teaching") always has been to live holy, not to obtain salvation.


Messianic Judaism asserts that the Torah (literally, "teaching") is still in effect (as modified by Yeshua).


Messianic Judaism teaches the biblical doctrine that salvation is a free gift from G-d, by faith in the atoning work of His Messiah.


Messianic Jews only baptize those who have accepted Messiah (no infant baptism) and baptize by immersion only (no sprinkling or pouring).

Not everyone who considers himself a "Messianic Jew" is. More

i dont fall into that category, so teejay these arent isreal? funny while i dont follow the feast etc , i believe in much of what they do. i even agree can with that statement. remember God told me i was a JEW not a christian nor gentile, i didnt read John upon my conversion but genesis. I was told get to YOUR roots.

i find it funny a gentile tells me what the tanakh says and how it works, yet God says that to me. i am not alone in my family that has had that expericience since my brother has had similiar expericiences. i dont get convicted for doing the kaddish. i choose not to as it similiar to the idea of purgatory., but i can see why they do that as its older then the days of christ on the earth but is a talmudic tradition.(oral passed).

#15 Fred Williams

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:24 AM

Fred, shouldn't we rely on clear teachings of scripture, and not try and deduce doctrine from happenstance? We don't know everything that went on in Paul's mind during that story in Acts. We have a clearer picture in Paul's epistles - and I don't gather anything from those two vague references that clearly imply a transitional gospel.


I no doubt agree in that we should never hang our hat on a vague reference, but that's not what I am doing. I instead used it as an outcrop to the position that after the cross there are scripture that taken in plain language, such as has been shown in this thread in Galatians, James, Acts, and elsewhere, that there appears to be a slightly different message to the Jews after the cross. I haven't yet seen a satisfying answer that accommodates all these verses without appealing to this concept of a different gospel to the Jews. Listen, I truly am all ears on this, I'm not set in stone on this topic, I just need compelling reasoning from scripture that doesn't ignore or explain away difficult passages. As uncomfortable as it is to what our ears have been taught by the traditional church, there indeed seems to be something amiss with the more traditional view of a lone gospel after the cross. Do you at least admit that there was a different covenant (and by extension gospel) before the cross?

Fred



#16 jason

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:34 AM

the jews per dont hear a different gospel. if so that would present a problem. all those jews till isreal are in hell as they didnt believe in the right God. they dont have to be under the law. that link says that its not for salvation please try to look at messianic judaism as a ministry to the jews that were raised in the temple.most jews arent raised in the temple these days.

i wasnt, my dad didnt care for that so he left judaism as he hated that. statisically speaking how many jews in america are there and given that how is it possible that the small amount of jews that come forward to christ are in messianic temples? most of them are probably gentiles.

teejay and fred many jews dont know that they are jews(during the holocause many hid their names and never told the children of their heritage and that was going on long before that). my friend a jew was one of them he by found out he was by searching family history and he had a hunch he was a jew.

oh the arguments i had with his daughter on judaism. she left christ for judaism(and is now a messanic). she would give me the evil eye if said the law is for the torah believing days of isreal,not needed for salvation. ironically i just learned that is what the messianic guys teach.

i figured that out when i read the new testament years ago as paul clearly stated that! the law was a school master. so paul "son" timothy wasnt a jew? he was saved after paul most likely.

#17 Teejay

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 12:31 PM

name='jason' timestamp='1314469226' post='74600']
paul seems to say this in romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


odd, you claim the present jews such as myself, so God again goes back on his word and changes his mind again? did you ever think all alone that jesus was the plan since genesis? yes its said to eve of they seed there shall arise a deliver! not abraham. again why is it important for the temple. sorry the kingdom of God has both jews and gentiles in it, the promise given to isreal is a land promise. why would god tell the jews that died, opp back to the land and do the torah all over again because you were faithful? and to me thou stay in heaven while i teach the jews of the hamashiac they knew about by faith(the ot saints worked in faith, if you doubt read what God said of joshua, and caleb for they have a different spirit. and even works now. so i guess in pauls day those jews in the majority after him werent jews?

i know a messianic jew who believes as i do.he is very knowlegdable on the torah and tanakh.it would be easy for me to leave christ and just to do what you say.


from a quick search:

http://www.didgodlie.com/who_is.html
HE BROUGHT SALVATION TO THE GENTILES.

Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth." 700 B.C.E.

Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 700 B.C.E.

Zechariah 2:10-11 [10] "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. [11] "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 520 B.C.E.

Note that in Biblical usage the Gentiles are often referred to as "the nations."

Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Yeshua. [15] Aware of this, Yeshua withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope."



and from that site.

the law teaches not saves, interesting leave to spirit lead jew to say that.

Practices vary among congregations.) Messianic Jews observe traditional Jewish holidays such as Purim and Chanukah, the ninth of Av and the Ten Days of Awe.


Messianic Jews observe the biblical feasts such as the Feasts of Trumpets, Tabernacles and Passover.


Messianic Jews worship on the biblical sabbath, i.e., Friday evening till Saturday.


Messianic Jews cant the Sh'ma, the kiddush and motzi, the Aaronic benediction, Etz Chaim, and many other parts of traditional Jewish liturgy.


Messianic Jews say kaddish for those who have passed on.

Messianic Jews cant the Torah portion in Hebrew at worship services.

Messianic Jews bar mitzvah their sons and bat mitzvah their daughters.

Messianic preaching is mainly from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), although references to the B'rit Chadasha (New Covenant) are not unusual.


Messianic Judaism emphasizes the special relationship between G-d and the Jewish people.


Messianic Judaism emphasizes Jewish traditions that do not conflict with the Bible.


Messianic Jews understand that G-d never changed the way to obtain salvation: "And Abraham believed G-d and it was credited to him [Abraham] as righteousness." The purpose of following the Torah (often mistranslated "Law", but literally, "teaching") always has been to live holy, not to obtain salvation.


Messianic Judaism asserts that the Torah (literally, "teaching") is still in effect (as modified by Yeshua).


Messianic Judaism teaches the biblical doctrine that salvation is a free gift from G-d, by faith in the atoning work of His Messiah.


Messianic Jews only baptize those who have accepted Messiah (no infant baptism) and baptize by immersion only (no sprinkling or pouring).

Not everyone who considers himself a "Messianic Jew" is. More

i dont fall into that category, so teejay these arent isreal? funny while i dont follow the feast etc , i believe in much of what they do. i even agree can with that statement. remember God told me i was a JEW not a christian nor gentile, i didnt read John upon my conversion but genesis. I was told get to YOUR roots.

i find it funny a gentile tells me what the tanakh says and how it works, yet God says that to me. i am not alone in my family that has had that expericience since my brother has had similiar expericiences. i dont get convicted for doing the kaddish. i choose not to as it similiar to the idea of purgatory., but i can see why they do that as its older then the days of christ on the earth but is a talmudic tradition.(oral passed).


Jason,

As I wrote in Post 7, there is no Jew or Gentile distinction. God cut off Israel and their promised kingdom is on hold. When God commissioned Paul to bypass Israel and go directy to the Gentiles, He gave Paul a different gospel--the gospel of grace. This dispensation is available to everyone--Jew, Gentile, slave, free, male, female, Zulus and Hungarians. The Body of Christ is international. A Chinese man who accepts Jesus under this gospel is my brother in Christ. When God raptures us out of here, He will go back to Israel (after the seven-year Tribulation). When He does this, Israel, as a nation will be back under the covenant of circumcision and will be required to keep the law.

Now if you have accepted Jesus Christ and are a Jew, then you can call yourself a Messianic Jew, but you are no different than any other human on earth who accepts Jesus. We are all saved by grace under Paul's Gospel. And there is nothing wrong with you observinc feasts when you visit your parents. It's polite and correct to do so. But if you observe any of the Jewish law to earn salvation, then you are not walking in the Spirit under grace. Circumcision is fine for health purposes, say, but not as a religious rite.

TeeJay

#18 Fred Williams

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:32 PM

Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.


I think this is a good response, and honestly I had at one time considered this a suitable explanation. However, I've since come to find this to not to be as compelling as I would like. Paul was extremely critical of the Jews who were trying to bring the law to the Gentiles, and the Gentiles who were falling for it (Galatians 3:3); If the believing Jews at this time did not also need to remain zealous for the law, Paul has every reason to warn James of this, otherwise he would be showing incredible favoritism to his followers, such as those at Galatians. I can't just chalk off Paul's handling of this to Air-run's explanation that we don't know what Paul was thinking at the time. Perhaps I could, if not for the other verses that have been raised in this thread that support James' response and Paul's reaction (or lack thereof) to it. This is my point to Air-run, I currently take this position because of the body of scripture that supports it. To not eat unclean foods around a weak believer to keep him from stumbling is one thing, but to allow James, a prestigious and influential person in the new Church, to go about teaching a zeal for the law to Jewish believers that is supposedly in error, seems way too important an issue to let pass. Regarding Romans 14:21, I have trouble believing James to be one of those believers without a solid maturity in his faith that he could stumble if Paul rebuked him about being zealous for the law.

Are there any scripture you or anyone else listening can provide that would falsify the position proposed in this thread? As mentioned earlier, I'm definitely all ears!

Fred

#19 Fred Williams

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 02:04 PM

No. The perpetual laws for Israel can't possibly be transitional. Paul accommodated James to "keep peace in the family. Paul was teaching his followers (Jews and Gentiles) did not have to circumcise and keep the law. For the Jews, this was 180 degrees in opposition to what Jesus commanded of Israel. As a former Pharisee and as a duly appointed apostle, Paul could show James' followers that Paul did not deem God's law for the Jews for Israel of no value. But would Paul ever allow any of his followers to put themselves under the law? NO.


My understanding is that James and the other Apostles were still under the kingdom gospel after the cross, and all new believers regardless of previous nationality were under the gospel of grace. Hence the transition (Hebrews 8:13) but I think this was probably a poor choice of words on my part.

What is your take on the AD 70 temple destruction and its impact on those under the kingdom gospel? Was this perhaps the end of the kingdom gospel at that time? I haven't worked through this aspect much... I also confess to not being familiar with the idea that Israel, when grafted back in, will be put back under this everlasting covenant of circumcision, I'll have to do more scriptural homework on this.

Thanks for an interesting topic!

Fred

#20 Teejay

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 03:04 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1314448048' post='74593']
I think we do know what was on Paul's mind. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23; 10:23-30; Romans 14

If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.

But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake; I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
[/quote]

ME, I would like to respond a little further to your post. What Paulis saying here is that he had a different message to different audiences. But Paul was not "all things to all people" concerning his gospel of grace. What I'm presenting here is a teaching that eludes most Bible teachers and is the cause of most doctrinal disputes.

Two covenants were in operation at the same time in the Acts perior. Paul preached his "dispensation of grace" while the Twelve were following thier "covenant of circmcision" WITH THEIR EXISTING CONVERTS (those saved priot to God commissioning Paul with the gospel of grace).

Paul makes this point in the mddle of a lecture on marriage (1 Corinthians 7): "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not become circumcised. Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called" (1 Cor. 7:18, 20).

We must realize that God cut off Israel. But Peter and James and their followers were originally saved under the gospel of circumcision or the law. While there was a difficult co-existence and friction, some of the circumcision apostles helped Paul in his ministry to the Gentiles: "Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas... and Jesus who is called Justus. These are my only fellow workers for the kingdom of God WHO ARE OF THE CIRCUMCISION. They have proved to be a comfort to us" (Col. 4:10-11). These two groups should have helped eath other, but there was conflict between the two groups and Paul lamented that only these three of the circumcision were a help to him.

Peter and James converts would hear that Paul was teaching his converts not to keep the law. So naturally some of Peter and James' converts were complaining that Paul had no respect for the law of Moses. So to keep "peace in the family" so to speak, Paul, as an apostle and a Pharisee could consent to show Peter's followers he did indeed have respect for Moses and consent to pay the expenses for the four Jewish men who had taken a vow (Acts 21:23-24). This is much like Jason visiting his family on a Jewish holiday. To show respect for his parents, it is perfectly proper to observe it with the family. Now if Jason did this to do works and gain salvation, then he would not be walking in the Spirit and he would be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

When Paul went to the Greeks in Greece, he could not preach the same gospel that Peter preached at Pentacost. Peter's audience was grounded in Jewish law and teaching. Peter did not have to convince the Jews that God was creator for example. But Paul was preaching to pagan Greeks who thought the earth was supported by turtles. Different audience, different way to witness. And also realize that Paul was preaching to unbelieving Jews who had not yet been saved by Peter. His message to them had to be tailored to Jews.

So, while Paul was all things to all people to win them to Christ, his grace gospel was chisled in stone. Paul railed, "If an angel from heaven preaches a gospel different than the one I preach, LET HIM BE ACCURSED!"

TeeJay




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