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#1 nyctreeman

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:17 AM

Looking forward to seeing the scientific information supporting the Bible.

I'm involved in some other forums populated by mostly atheist evolutionists and it's like talking to a wall :)

I'm pretty much Calvinist, I don't believe in free will regarding any portion of salvation.

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:29 PM

Welcome. You will meet resistance here if you preach that doctrine.

Question: Did everyone have it wrong before Calvin got it right? And are Calvinists the only ones going to Heaven?

#3 nyctreeman

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:18 PM

I think many people had it right before Calvin, and he was certainly not 100% right on all of his doctrines.

The only people going to heaven are those God almighty chose in election before the foundations of the world.

No more, no less.

#4 supamk3speed

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:05 PM

Welcome, perseverance for gods truth will always lead you down the right path.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:47 PM

I think many people had it right before Calvin, and he was certainly not 100% right on all of his doctrines.


So which doctrines was he wrong on?

The only people going to heaven are those God almighty chose in election before the foundations of the world.

No more, no less.


The thing about this part of your belief it's supported by taking one or two verses out of context of the whole Bible. This is what JWs and Mormons do. And they also believe that their leader, who is exalted for this, was the only person who had it right.

A salvation that is pre-choosen is:

1) A salvation that does not need a savior. If we are predetermined before the foundations of the world, what Christ did on the cross does not save you. The predetermination does.
2) A salvation you are predetermined for and cannot lose is bondage. Christ came to set the captives free not move them unto another bondage by having a covenant no one can ever leave, or have a choice to be in.
3) Calvinism, like Mormons and JWs. Give their followers a since that they are superior to everyone else because they are the elected. And that anyone who does not believe their doctrine or joins their denomination are going to Hell.
4) Cults all have something in common. Their ways of doing the same thing are different but the end game is always the same.

What does the Calvinism denomination tell you will happen if you leave them?

#6 MamaElephant

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 02:20 AM

Welcome, perseverance for gods truth will always lead you down the right path.

I agree with all of the above. Welcome.

I am also familiar with disagreeing with Ikester, but still I learned. Feel free to shoot me a PM or email anytime.

#7 nyctreeman

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 05:55 AM

I agree with all of the above. Welcome.

I am also familiar with disagreeing with Ikester, but still I learned. Feel free to shoot me a PM or email anytime.


I see what you mean :)

He wanted me to move my posts in the general discussion to another thread, I was unsure where he wanted them moved to and why, asked for further guidance, and this morning I see that all my posts and responses to them have been removed.

I thought that discussing Bible verses would be tolerated here, perhaps certain verses will not?

heh...

#8 nyctreeman

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 06:41 AM

So which doctrines was he wrong on?


Calvin like many others was wrong on the corporate or Earthly church being the foundation of truth.
The word of God is the foundation of truth, not the church.

The thing about this part of your belief it's supported by taking one or two verses out of context of the whole Bible. This is what JWs and Mormons do. And they also believe that their leader, who is exalted for this, was the only person who had it right.


It's not one or two verses, it's throughout the entire Bible. I offered many examples both in the old and new testaments in the other thread, and rather than respond to them from the Bible, you deleted them.

A salvation that is pre-choosen is:

1) A salvation that does not need a savior. If we are predetermined before the foundations of the world, what Christ did on the cross does not save you. The predetermination does.
2) A salvation you are predetermined for and cannot lose is bondage. Christ came to set the captives free not move them unto another bondage by having a covenant no one can ever leave, or have a choice to be in.
3) Calvinism, like Mormons and JWs. Give their followers a since that they are superior to everyone else because they are the elected. And that anyone who does not believe their doctrine or joins their denomination are going to Hell.
4) Cults all have something in common. Their ways of doing the same thing are different but the end game is always the same.

What does the Calvinism denomination tell you will happen if you leave them?


1) Incorrect. The law of God that the penalty for sin is death is still required, and it is satisfied by the fact that Christ paid that price before the foundations of the world. Christ did not pay for sins on the cross, as the Bible states; his walk here on Earth and his crucifixion was a "sign made manifest" or a demonstration to the human race what he had to do for the elect before the foundations of the world. The Bible is very clear on that.

2) Partially correct. The human race is born into the bondage of sin, we are dead in our sins as the Bible states, and God clearly states that NO ONE, NOT ONE, seeketh after God until God intervenes in their life. Therefore we are indeed in bondage outside of that miracle of being born again in our soul. Yes, Christ did come to set the captives free, but which ones? Those he is obligated to set free in his plan of election, ie: those who were chosen before the foundation of the world, until then, they are captives as well as the rest of the unsaved world. By suggesting that we have a choice is to suggest that we can frustrate the will of God, thereby making man the sovereign rather than God.

3) Calvinism per se, I do not believe preaches any kind of superiority other than the superiority of the sovereign God and his Holy word. It is not the belief in any doctrine or lack thereof that sends people to hell, it is sin. The entire human race is destined for hell by nature, and if sovereign God had not decided to elect a people for himself, NO ONE would be saved, because as God states in Romans, "there are none righteous, NO NOT ONE, there are none that seeketh after God"

4) I wasn't aware that Calvinism had been deemed a cult, and it doesn't tell me anything about "leaving" it to my knowledge, and since I'm not a member of any church, I'm not at risk for being punished for leaving :)

Remember that Jesus himself stated:

"I pray not for the world, but for those that the father hath given me, and of them, I have lost none"

I know these truths of the Bible are unpopular and rub the human ego the wrong way, but the fact is that your doctrine of free will cannot be supported by the Bible, and in fact forces the creation of all kinds of false doctrines to support it, like the doctrine of the age of accountability.

#9 Salsa

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:28 AM

Hi nyc, and welcome!

I don't think that ikester "sovereignly" deleted your posts, but has moved them to another thread in the General conversation section. (A Branch Of The Thread: God Is No Respecter Of Persons...)

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:29 AM

ncytreeman:
Your post were moved to a new thread in the same section with all responding posts as well.

#11 MamaElephant

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:54 AM

I see what you mean :)

He wanted me to move my posts in the general discussion to another thread, I was unsure where he wanted them moved to and why, asked for further guidance, and this morning I see that all my posts and responses to them have been removed.

I thought that discussing Bible verses would be tolerated here, perhaps certain verses will not?

heh...

I owe Ikester an apology. In trying to encourage you to stick around I didn't say enough and gave the wrong impression. My point was that though I have disagreed with Ikester for most of my time on the forum (and argued with him in PMs) in fact, God has used him to reach me and he has been a big help to me. If it weren't for his insistence on non-denominational I might not be a Christian today.


At one point, I had my posts removed from the welcome section when I said that I didn't believe that an atheist would be going to hell. I was allowed to approach the subject in the Bible Q&A forum.

With some doctrines, the forum moderators are afraid that opposing views from a Christian will stumble some, especially if left in the welcome section. Not least of all myself, since I am a newborn. I believe he moved your comments to a different thread. Did you find it? I am trying to help a new Christian get over the cult mind that sets in when praying, so I am concentrating on that right now. God sure has work for me to do! If I have time and the Spirit leads me I will pop in to that discussion, but I am sure Ikester and other Christians here have enough scriptural knowledge to discuss it for a while.

#12 nyctreeman

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:05 PM

ncytreeman:
Your post were moved to a new thread in the same section with all responding posts as well.


My bad...didn't realize that was the case.

I'll see if I can find them, not exactly used to this forum style :P

Regarding these doctrine issues;

I like to discuss them from the Bible rather than my own opinions, since the Bible is infallible and I am not

Do you guys agree that God constructed the Bible to be complicated for the specific purpose of causing us to search out the scriptures, and provide the opportunity to those who are so inclined to create false doctrines?




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