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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 11:17 PM

This is a move of some of the posts from the thread found here because Calvinist views will be used here in this thread. It would have derailed the other thread: http://www.evolution...t=0

The thread starter post by ikester7579:


God can only judge those who "knew" that what they do is wrong. Because sin has to be understood before a person can realize that they need to get help, and ask forgiveness and repent. A person who does not know this will never come to this understanding and therefore is not responsible. Because you have to know good before you know what's bad.

Now some people will use this "not knowing what's wrong" as justification before others. In doing so they actually admit to knowing by even claiming this. And besides, God judges by what's in our hearts. Our heart does not lie so He will know who is claiming innocence, but really knows and hides behind a lie. People can fool men, but you cannot fool God.

God will judge certain sins for those who:

1) Having the knowledge that what is being done is wrong.
2) Not seeking help or forgiveness and to repent when you know you need it.
3) Not being mentally ill enough to not know what should be done.
4) Claiming innocence when it does not apply.

God will not judge certain sins for those who:

1) Do not understand that the sin was wrong.
2) To mentally ill to know right from wrong.
3) Was mentally damaged and does not understand.
4) Or for some reason did not have a choice.

If the judgment were easier, then all sin could be justified and Christ dying on the cross would not be needed.

To sun it up:
Knowledge of what you do as being wrong means you are guilty and will be judged as such. And you will be held responsible for asking forgiveness and repenting (abstaining) from sin.
Not knowing or understanding what's wrong means you could not have known to do the right thing. And therefore cannot be judged for what you did not know.

I believe that this may cover some who did not get a chance to know Christ because they were never introduced for one reason or another. And the mentally ill because they could never be made to understand. And children of a innocent mind who never got to make the choice.



ncytreeman said:
The real answer is, it doesn't matter how you were born or what you understand.

If you want to see how God really sees the human race, start with Psalm 58, which is some very ugly language.

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"


Furthermore, God explains who the "wicked" are in many places in the scriptures, like Romans 3 for example.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


The fact is that the entire human race from the fall of Adam on is judged exactly the same way, Guilty at birth

We are all born in sin and destined for eternal damnation from God unless God intervenes by changing our flawed soul.

When Adam and Eve fell, we all fell with them, as we were all in the loins of the first humans (think DNA) and God did go through the motions of looking at the corridors of time to see if there was a single human being that would ever be innocent or without sin, and guess what? No not one as Romans 3 tells us.

God then determined to have a people for himself, and as the sovereign creator of everything that is, he selected his elect in his own good pleasure and absolute justice before the foundations of the world, that's what the scriptures say. And those people are represented very well in the parable of the hidden treasure in the field. Of course God obey's his own laws, and therefore he had to provide someone to suffer the death the elect would deserve, which is a mind boggling concept if you think a bit on it.

No one can bring anyone to salvation, no one can convince anyone to get right with God, and the Bible doesn't tell us to, it tells us to be witnesses and occupy until God returns, so there is NO SUCH THING as an innocent child, they are the same in God's eyes as anyone else.


ikester7579 said:
Anyone can take the Bible out of context to make a new doctrine. Are you here to promote and preach Calvinism?

ncytreeman said:
Nope, not at all.

I don't know how you can say I'm taking the Bible out of context...you cannot read the entire Bible without seeing a very clear and unambiguous message of God's sovereignty in all matters, which btw, is one of the reasons Christianity is so hated around the world.

I believe the Bible in it's original autographs, is the complete and divinely inspired word of God for the human race, every word was carefully chosen by God, not the people who were penning the words, and through this miraculous document, God speaks to the world, both elect and non-elect. To some he gives a hearing ear and a discerning eye, and to others he sends strong delusion.

The Bible is full of examples that defy any attempt of modern liberal theology to set up false doctrines like the age of accountability that most churches accept for some reason...probably because since children and babies die now and then, it wouldn't be very popular for the minister to tell the flock and the parents that the child may or may not be in heaven.

This entire notion of man's free will in relationship to God and salvation is a fabrication to ease our sensitive egos. It is the notion of free will btw, which forces churches to create false doctrines like age of accountability, otherwise the whole thing falls apart instantly.

When you read a verse like "I stand at the door and knock..." etc, that is only a piece of the story. Yes, God sends the call out to the entire world, but if you harmonize the verses that indicate this with the rest of the bible statements on the subject, you find that the call goes unanswered because the entire human race is "dead in their sins", which means spiritually dead.

So when Jesus stands at the door and knocks, who will open and let him in? The rest of the Bible clearly says that no one will. Jesus said no man may come to me unless the father who sent me draw him first. Where's the free will in that?


ncytreeman said:

In regards to those who never had a chance to know Christ;

God never made provisions for them. See Romans 9:21-24

21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 - And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 - Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Clearly God is telling us here that some people are simply not elected in God's plan.

And in John 15:16 he says

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


The sad reality of this world and the state of mankind is, that not a single person would ever seek after the true God or "accept" Christ of their own free will and nature, it's impossible, we cannot do it, and to suggest that someone can "decide" for Christ or "accept" his grace from within their own being, is to suggest that we contribute something to our own salvation.

More importantly, that would mean we could frustrate the will of God, ie: if God's desire was to save me, but I could resist his grace or will, I have therefore made myself the sovereign in this scenario, and the Bible simply will not tolerate that, likewise that would mean that those who do not "choose" for Christ are somehow not as good as those who do, which the Bible will also not tolerate.

A good illustration of this is the man who picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath Day, he wasn't a terrible person, he only violated a tiny portion of the law, a seemingly insignificant and minor offense, he picked up a few sticks. And God had him killed, and if you read the rest of the following verses in that story, you will see that God goes into language of outer darkness and eternal destruction, wholly indicating that this is also an analogy for anyone who does a little bit of work on the Sabbath, which in our day is the same thing as people who think they have contributed just a tiny bit to their relationship with God.

Something every Christian should read and ponder every day from Matthew 7:21-23

21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


If Christ says that people who thought of themselves as dedicated Christians who were convinced that they had served God properly, devoted their lives to the good or wonderful works as laid out in Matthew 7, and tried their best to live and serve the way they thought proper...will be turned away and rejected on the last day because he never knew them, WOW, and where does that leave the rest of the world that never heard of Christ?

This is one of the passages that first made me question my own salvation or status with God.

There were two thieves on crosses with Jesus, both were reviling Christ in their teeth, but then without any visible reason why, one thief suddenly humbles his heart and asks Christ to remember him when he gets to his kingdom. The other thief did not. Was one thief better than the other? certainly not. I submit to you that these men both heard the words of Christ as he spoke on the cross, and the holy spirit applied those words to one and not the other. It's the only answer that doesn't violate the scriptures.

I know this is incredibly unpopular, but it is what the scriptures are saying.



#2 Salsa

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:21 AM

I think that taking a few verses and pulling and stretching them to their utmost extreme is one of the tell-tale signs of unhealthy dogmatism and should be a warning flag to all Christians.

In Romans 9 Paul speaks in general terms about God's sovereignty as it applied to Israel and the gentiles, giving a few specific examples that show, obviously, that God can do whatever he wants to do. The word examples is important, because Paul suggests elsewhere that examples are provided for us for a specific reason - to keep us from making the same mistakes as those given in the examples (1 Cor 10:6,11).

God hardened Israel. Does he harden every nation? God hardened pharoah. Does God harden everyones heart that rejects him?

NO!! Pharaoh was merely an example given for our benefit, just as the verse suggests:

"I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Not everyone is an example!

What God did with Pharaoh, and with Israel seems unjust from a human perspective, until we realize that there is a good reason for his doing so. He doesn't just go around the globe hardening hearts like a madman, but only when providing examples that are meant to warn us.

Calvinism nullifies these examples because there is no longer any benefit in heeding warnings. After all, it's not up to me, but up to God, and who knows.. God might have decided from the beginning of time that I will eventually be an object of wrath.

This is a false and very dangerous teaching.

#3 nyctreeman

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:26 PM

Does God harden every nation or heart that rejects him?

Absolutely he does those who are not elect, God sends them strong delusion so that they would believe a lie, and he gives peoples and nations over or up to their sins, he releases his hand of restraint upon them.

Romans 1:18-32 for example"

18-For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19-Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20-For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21-Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22-Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23-And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24-Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25-Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27-And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28-And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29-Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30-Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31-Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32-Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


What does it mean when God "gives people up" or "gives them over to" ?

I submit to you that it means that God is not neutral in these things, restraining sin at some times, and then giving people over to sin at other times. A God that was neutral, who waited for people to make their own ultimate and final decisions, does not actively participate in "turning them over" to sin as the Bible clearly states he does.

Thessalonians 2:11-12 further illustrates this principle

11-And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12-That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You can't just gloss over these verses in the word, and to suggest that certain verses apply only to the people being addressed at the time they were written, is to undermine the principle that everything in the Bible applies to us today in the form of parable and analogy, and Jesus did say that he speaks not to us unless by parable, clearly indicating that the word of God has both historical and analogous meaning.

#4 nyctreeman

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:32 PM

Free will doctrines ultimately lead to "works gospels"

It's unavoidable, if you have free will, then by implication, you must "do something" no matter how small to participate in your salvation, whether it be by water baptism, or "accepting Christ", or through visions and dreams, lying signs and wonders, etc. etc.

The bottom line is, if you have free will to accept or deny Christ, then Christ must wait for you to make the decision, and therefore you become the sovereign in the matter, and the Bible simply will not allow this.

#5 Salsa

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 10:04 PM

Absolutely he does those who are not elect, God sends them strong delusion so that they would believe a lie, and he gives peoples and nations over or up to their sins, he releases his hand of restraint upon them.


No, God sends a strong delusion to test whether or not those who live on the earth will believe the lie or whether they will believe in his word. Testing is not the same as hardening, even though hardening may be the result of testing.

Both testing and electing would be utterly pointless if everyones fate is already determined.

Polarizing the inhabitants of the earth through delusion is simply a action taken to separate the weeds from the wheat, so that the wheat won't be damanged by intermingling with the weeds.

What does it mean when God "gives people up" or "gives them over to" ?


It means he "gives them up", or "gives them over to" whatever they have reaped. What else would it mean?

You can't just gloss over these verses in the word, and to suggest that certain verses apply only to the people being addressed at the time they were written, is to undermine the principle that everything in the Bible applies to us today in the form of parable and analogy, and Jesus did say that he speaks not to us unless by parable, clearly indicating that the word of God has both historical and analogous meaning.


I never gloss over anything in the word, and I haven't suggested anywhere that certain verses only apply to the time in which they were written. If I do so then I will let you know.

Let me provide a verse for you that totally anihilates Calvinism, and let us see whether or not you "gloss over it":

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4)

Why would God predestine someone to perish when his explicit will is that they be saved? It would be like someone drawing squares when what he really wants is circles.

The potter offers some of the clay in an effor to warn and save the remainder of the clay not to form themselves according to that particular pattern. It is a calculated risk!

God does not want ANYONE, including pharaoh, to perish, but "raised him up" that way in order to serve a greater purpose.

Not everything that happens on this planet is God's will. Otherwise Jesus would never have taught us to pray that his will be done here as it is in heaven. God does whatever anyone would do in a bad situation to save as many people as possible.

Free will doctrines ultimately lead to "works gospels"


Free will hopefully lead to following Christ and living a faithful and productive life. Even though "works gospels" are bad, that does not mean that "works" in themselves are. What is boils down to is whether or not your deeds are a fruit or righteousness, or something you submit in order to gain righteousness. Big difference.

You yourself quoted the following verse somewhere:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Obviously, works will accompany someone who lives by faith. The works themselves do not save him, but are simply an indication that they are being led by the Spirit, whom they willfully follow because of their love of God.

Both "works gospels" and faith produce works. What distinguishes them in the sight of God is the motives of the heart.

#6 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:02 AM

Free will doctrines ultimately lead to "works gospels"

I completely disagree. I believe in free-will and I have come from a religion that teaches a works gospel (though they don't realize it, ugh) to Christ, who gives freely.

#7 Fred Williams

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:12 AM

ncytreeman, just to let you know where I stand beforehand, I have several good friends who are Calvinists (even though some of them would deny it), and I don't doubt theirs or your salvation. That being said, I won't mince words in that I am absolutely 100% convinced Calvinism, like virtually all false doctrines, was started by Satan as a mechanism (an effective one) to keep people from Christ, as it creates no logical or reasonable reason whatsoever to witness to others (I'd rather not debate this point, so please spare the excuses such as the oft-used "simply because God told us to witness" which IMO is utterly irrational). It also creates a God virtually indistinguishable from a stone idol, which is what immutability, an idea easily traced to Greek paganism, is (the Calvinist God "never changes" even to the point of having NO emotion). It's a downright despicable view of God to believe he has ordained all rapes and murders, that Casey Anthony's murder was all part of God's plan, that Hitler was meant to kill all the Jews as part of His sovereignty, etc.

Now to scripture. The problem with Calvinism, as has been shown on many debates on this forum, is that the Calvinist, without question, will be forced to ignore scores of Bible verses that completely contradict his position. These counter-verses might as well be crossed out of the Calvinist's Bible because they mean absolutely nothing and serve zero purpose. Time and time again, debate after debate, the Calvinist is forced to use words like "anthropomorphism" to explain away the plain meaning of tons of verses. Of the verses they claim support their position, they are typically yanked out of context, as you have already done with your very first salvo.

One of the key points of exegesis I have tried to convey is that, when confronted with seemingly contradictory verses, which doctrine can accommodate the PLAIN MEANING of both, and which doctrine is forced to ignore the PLAIN MEANING (Prov8:8 - All the words of my mouth are with righteousness; Nothing crooked or perverse is in them. They are all plain to him who understands, And right to those who find knowledge).

Let's look at the first two verses you presented for Calvinism:

Psalms 58:3 - This says absolutely nothing about whether or not the person was pre-ordained by God to be wicked, and nothing about man's so-called total depravity. You have to add this in. It fits completely with the Biblical teaching that men are borne into sin. Since you brought this verse up, would you care to explain how my view does not easily accommodate its plain language? (a summary of my beliefs can be found in the link in my signature).

You then quoted Romans 9:21–24. You clearly yanked this out of context, not realizing Paul is quoting directly from the Old Testament, Jeremiah 18:2-10. It is crystal clear from the Jeremiah passage that God did not mar the vessel, it marred itself. I would ask you, what value is God's conditional statement in Jeremiah 8:8, if He has already ordained their action? Can't you see how irrational a view this is to defend? You are forced to say God's conditional was worthless, of no value, since the outcome was already pre-determined!

If Jeremiah 8 isn't enough to convince you (or anyone in the audience), please explain a similar verse where God clearly is the potter wanting to make Israel into something it refuses to mold into:

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Who knows? I waited for it to yield grapes, but it yielded rotten grapes.

Please explain to the audience how Calvinism accommodates the PLAIN LANGUAGE of Jeremiah 8:-2-10 and Isaiah 5:4.

And I'm just getting started.Posted Image

Fred

PS. Why is it every Calvinist I encounter seem to especially underline Matthew 7:21–23? Why does this verse matter one iota if God already chose who gets to go to heaven, and who gets to suffer in hell for eternity? Doesn't this verse have meaning only if you don't have a Calvinist POV?

#8 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 08:18 AM

This is a very encouraging topic.

1“I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;

I was found by those who did not seek me.

To a nation that did not call on my name,

I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’

2All day long I have held out my hands

to an obstinate people,--Isaiah 65

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.--Revelation 22:17

37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink." --John 7:37

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live-- Deut. 30:19

"Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. -- Ezekial 18:23

"God overlooked people's ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him.-- Acts 17:30

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.-- 2 Peter 3:9

#9 nyctreeman

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 08:24 AM

ncytreeman, just to let you know where I stand beforehand, I have several good friends who are Calvinists (even though some of them would deny it), and I don't doubt theirs or your salvation. That being said, I won't mince words in that I am absolutely 100% convinced Calvinism, like virtually all false doctrines, was started by Satan as a mechanism (an effective one) to keep people from Christ, as it creates no logical or reasonable reason whatsoever to witness to others (I'd rather not debate this point, so please spare the excuses such as the oft-used "simply because God told us to witness" which IMO is utterly irrational). It also creates a God virtually indistinguishable from a stone idol, which is what immutability, an idea easily traced to Greek paganism, is (the Calvinist God "never changes" even to the point of having NO emotion). It's a downright despicable view of God to believe he has ordained all rapes and murders, that Casey Anthony's murder was all part of God's plan, that Hitler was meant to kill all the Jews as part of His sovereignty, etc.

Now to scripture. The problem with Calvinism, as has been shown on many debates on this forum, is that the Calvinist, without question, will be forced to ignore scores of Bible verses that completely contradict his position. These counter-verses might as well be crossed out of the Calvinist's Bible because they mean absolutely nothing and serve zero purpose. Time and time again, debate after debate, the Calvinist is forced to use words like "anthropomorphism" to explain away the plain meaning of tons of verses. Of the verses they claim support their position, they are typically yanked out of context, as you have already done with your very first salvo.

One of the key points of exegesis I have tried to convey is that, when confronted with seemingly contradictory verses, which doctrine can accommodate the PLAIN MEANING of both, and which doctrine is forced to ignore the PLAIN MEANING (Prov8:8 - All the words of my mouth are with righteousness; Nothing crooked or perverse is in them. They are all plain to him who understands, And right to those who find knowledge).

Let's look at the first two verses you presented for Calvinism:

Psalms 58:3 - This says absolutely nothing about whether or not the person was pre-ordained by God to be wicked, and nothing about man's so-called total depravity. You have to add this in. It fits completely with the Biblical teaching that men are borne into sin. Since you brought this verse up, would you care to explain how my view does not easily accommodate its plain language? (a summary of my beliefs can be found in the link in my signature).

You then quoted Romans 9:21–24. You clearly yanked this out of context, not realizing Paul is quoting directly from the Old Testament, Jeremiah 18:2-10. It is crystal clear from the Jeremiah passage that God did not mar the vessel, it marred itself. I would ask you, what value is God's conditional statement in Jeremiah 8:8, if He has already ordained their action? Can't you see how irrational a view this is to defend? You are forced to say God's conditional was worthless, of no value, since the outcome was already pre-determined!

If Jeremiah 8 isn't enough to convince you (or anyone in the audience), please explain a similar verse where God clearly is the potter wanting to make Israel into something it refuses to mold into:

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Who knows? I waited for it to yield grapes, but it yielded rotten grapes.

Please explain to the audience how Calvinism accommodates the PLAIN LANGUAGE of Jeremiah 8:-2-10 and Isaiah 5:4.

And I'm just getting started.Posted Image

Fred

PS. Why is it every Calvinist I encounter seem to especially underline Matthew 7:21–23? Why does this verse matter one iota if God already chose who gets to go to heaven, and who gets to suffer in hell for eternity? Doesn't this verse have meaning only if you don't have a Calvinist POV?


Quite frankly, the doctrine of free will is what is Satanic.
By it's very definition, it places the sovereignty of God onto mankind.

Firstly, Adam and Eve are the only two human beings that ever had true free will, and they were both deceived by Satan and were cut off from God. God said in the day you eat of this fruit, you will surely die. Did they die that day? not physically, but spiritually they did, right at that moment. Did God not curse the Earth and mankind? so that they could not live forever in their sins? that's what it says in the scriptures fwiw.

God did not author sin, and regarding evil, the Bible does refer to some things God does in his wrath to be an evil thing, but not in the sense that God is evil, but in the sense that punishment and death is an evil consequence which must come because of the law God laid down in the begining.

You mentioned Hitler...

Does the Bible not say that God raises up kings, nations, and also put them down?
Does the Bible not demonstrate how God brings evil leaders to evil people?

Shall there be violence in the city and the Lord hath not done it?

You bet God raised up Adolf Hitler, that's Bible.

God doesn't create the evil men do, but what he does do is release his hand of restraint in the world, both in governments and individuals alike. I don't know how you can gloss over verses that say "God gave them up" or "gave them over to", I really don't.

This is the problem with free will doctrines, they start from the begining with a completely wrong assumption.

When God says there are none that seeketh after God, no not one...how do you twist that, brother?
When Jesus says "I pray not for the world, but for those that the father hath given me" how do you twist that?

The key to understanding where the human race really stands (by nature) with God is to go back to the begining, when Adam and Eve fell into sin, they and their descendants were removed from the book of life.

The human race is removed from the book of life at the fall, and yet we know that Abel was a saved man, how is that possible without the shedding of Christ's blood as stated in the Bible?

God declares in the Bible that Christ was the lamb slain BEFORE the foundations of the world. how can this be twisted, brother?

"Many are called, few are chosen" ..... in principle, the call of God does go to the entire human race, but the problem is that no one can or will answer that call without divine intervention.

Let's take the free will doctrine and apply it to the greatest example of predestination in the Bible (IMO):

The crucifixion of Christ and the two thieves.

Both thieves were reviling Christ in their teeth, then one suddenly changes and humbles his heart, asking the Lord Jesus to remember him when he enters his kingdom.

So....

One of two possibilities exists here:

1. Both thieves were free agents with free will, and for some reason, one was somewhat better than the other because he "decided" on his own free will to repent, humble himself, and ask Christ to remember him.
(the bible absolutely will not allow this for a host of reasons)

2. One thief was elect, the other was not, and when the elect thief heard the words of Jesus on the cross (who never ceased to be God) - faith cometh by hearing the word of God, his soul was changed at that moment by God almighty, and the evidence of that born again status was his sudden repentance and humble attitude.

You can't have it any other way...either the thieves were sovereign, and one decided for good whereas the other did not, or it was all in the divine plan of God almighty.

#10 Salsa

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 10:50 AM

Quite frankly, the doctrine of free will is what is Satanic.
By it's very definition, it places the sovereignty of God onto mankind.

Firstly, Adam and Eve are the only two human beings that ever had true free will, and they were both deceived by Satan and were cut off from God.


So what you are basically saying is that God gave Adam and Eve free will. Then after the fall he removed it... because it was "satanic". And in order to make things less "satanic" he converted mankind into puppets doing his will, so that everything evil that is done on the face of the planet is just God pulling the strings. Hmmm.. am I the only one that thinks that is utterly sick?

There is a big difference between God punishing nations though natural calamities and the appointment of rulers, and the idea that everything evil is caused and willed by God. Fred showed you in the verses he posted, that God waited for, and expected things, that never occurred. The reason being that those he expected to choose good, chose evil, which sounds a whole lot like someone exercising free will to me.

Dogmatic doctrines such as this are always a result of someone going to extremes with a few verses and turning them into absolute truths. The bible teaches us not to go beyond what is written. That means that you cannot take one verse and blow it out of proportion without seeing what boundaries exist in the rest of scripture.

For example, you cannot take a few words that Jesus prayed in a specific situation and pretend they are the basis for doctrine, unless you consider everything he taught us about prayer.

The fact that he was not praying for the world at that time does not mean that he never prayed for the world!

He was praying specifically for his disciples because the shepard was about to be struck down and the sheep scattered. He knew what lay before him and what lay before his disciples and was praying for that particular situation. It was a prayer of sanctification, because the situation they were about to be exposed to demanded it.

You can't just rip out a verse and use it simply because it supports your doctrine - you have to study the context!

It is good and proper for us to pray for those closest to us, and for believers, but Jesus taught his disciples to even pray for those that hated and persecuted them. Does everyone that hates and persecutes Christians get saved? Of course not!

Now as I said earlier, the fact that God wants all men to be saved and none to perish, absolutely destroys Calvinism!

If there is no free will then all that remains is God's will. And if it is God's will that all men be saved then one would have to assume that that is going to happen. After all, who is going to stop God's will from coming to pass?

#11 nyctreeman

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:30 AM

So what you are basically saying is that God gave Adam and Eve free will. Then after the fall he removed it... because it was "satanic". And in order to make things less "satanic" he converted mankind into puppets doing his will, so that everything evil that is done on the face of the planet is just God pulling the strings. Hmmm.. am I the only one that thinks that is utterly sick?

There is a big difference between God punishing nations though natural calamities and the appointment of rulers, and the idea that everything evil is caused and willed by God. Fred showed you in the verses he posted, that God waited for, and expected things, that never occurred. The reason being that those he expected to choose good, chose evil, which sounds a whole lot like someone exercising free will to me.

Dogmatic doctrines such as this are always a result of someone going to extremes with a few verses and turning them into absolute truths. The bible teaches us not to go beyond what is written. That means that you cannot take one verse and blow it out of proportion without seeing what boundaries exist in the rest of scripture.

For example, you cannot take a few words that Jesus prayed in a specific situation and pretend they are the basis for doctrine, unless you consider everything he taught us about prayer.

The fact that he was not praying for the world at that time does not mean that he never prayed for the world!

He was praying specifically for his disciples because the shepard was about to be struck down and the sheep scattered. He knew what lay before him and what lay before his disciples and was praying for that particular situation. It was a prayer of sanctification, because the situation they were about to be exposed to demanded it.

You can't just rip out a verse and use it simply because it supports your doctrine - you have to study the context!

It is good and proper for us to pray for those closest to us, and for believers, but Jesus taught his disciples to even pray for those that hated and persecuted them. Does everyone that hates and persecutes Christians get saved? Of course not!

Now as I said earlier, the fact that God wants all men to be saved and none to perish, absolutely destroys Calvinism!

If there is no free will then all that remains is God's will. And if it is God's will that all men be saved then one would have to assume that that is going to happen. After all, who is going to stop God's will from coming to pass?


Wrong on all counts.

God didn't remove their free will, THEY DID, by submitting themselves to Satan.
Satan was the winner of that test, and therefore won the right to rule over mankind.

Sorry if you cannot see the ABSOLUTE TRUTHS in the Bible, but last time I checked, there were no grey areas in God's laws or his statements.

There is a big difference between God punishing nations though natural calamities and the appointment of rulers, and the idea that everything evil is caused and willed by God. Fred showed you in the verses he posted, that God waited for, and expected things, that never occurred. The reason being that those he expected to choose good, chose evil, which sounds a whole lot like someone exercising free will to me.


Again, the will of God was not to create evil, it is to allow mankind to be turned over to the evil that they love and desire. You can ask the dead people in a cemetery to choose all you want, and there will be no answer, because they are DEAD. Likewise, the human race is born spiritually DEAD and is incapable of answering the call from God to choose anything regarding salvation.

When Jesus spoke that prayer, he is giving us a clear view into what the nature of the saved are, ie: not the world, but what the father hath given him ... I don't know how you can marginalize this statement.

When God states that he would desire that none be lost, is that "none" the entire world? or is that "none" referring to his elect?

This is where your argument falls apart...

Because if God's will is that no human being would be lost or that all would be saved, what you're really saying is that man's will trumps God's will, and that his will and grace is not irresistable as the Bible clearly states it is.

You can't have it both ways, either man is the sovereign, or God is.

Take your pick.

#12 nyctreeman

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:49 AM

Let me ask you a question:

When God almighty poured out the fierceness of his wrath on the world with the flood of Noah's day, or when he destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone raining down from heaven, DID HE LOVE THOSE PEOPLE?

Did God wish that those people he utterly destroyed would be saved? And if so, does that mean God had to cede to the "free will" of those people? This notion is preposterous.

When God brought those judgments upon the world, did he not destroy everyone? including little children, pregnant women, elderly, etc? You bet he did, and this idea that children or the ignorant are somehow innocent and not deserving of God's righteous wrath is just one of many examples of how this free will doctrine is bankrupt.

#13 Salsa

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:52 PM

Wrong on all counts.

God didn't remove their free will, THEY DID, by submitting themselves to Satan.


You are not making sense. In order for submission to someone to remove free will they would have to be under the complete and utter control of the one they are enslaved to - void of any possibility of making choices. The Bible shows us clearly that there are choices available to everyone.

Satan was the winner of that test, and therefore won the right to rule over mankind.


I can agree with that.

Sorry if you cannot see the ABSOLUTE TRUTHS in the Bible, but last time I checked, there were no grey areas in God's laws or his statements.


What "absolute truths" and "grey areas" are you referring to? Please be more specific. Unless of course this is just some kind of rhetorical outburst that you have no intention of providing any scriptural evidence for. If that is the case then I suggest you leave them out of the discussion and just stick to the points that are central to this issue.

So if you have any "black and white areas" that you'd like to pit them against what you consider to be my "grey areas" then be my guest. But make sure that they conform to the entire scriptural record, if you are going to suggest they are "absolute truths".

Again, the will of God was not to create evil, it is to allow mankind to be turned over to the evil that they love and desire. You can ask the dead people in a cemetery to choose all you want, and there will be no answer, because they are DEAD. Likewise, the human race is born spiritually DEAD and is incapable of answering the call from God to choose anything regarding salvation.


That's right, mankind is in a fallen state, and no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws them. That I don't have any problem with. The problem I have with Calvinism is the idea that all people were predetermined to choose life or death, portraying God as someone who actually wants billions and billions of people to suffer eternally.

When God states that he would desire that none be lost, is that "none" the entire world? or is that "none" referring to his elect?


He wants "all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." Paul did not qualify that verse in any way, so why should you or I?


Let me ask you a question:

When God almighty poured out the fierceness of his wrath on the world with the flood of Noah's day, or when he destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone raining down from heaven, DID HE LOVE THOSE PEOPLE?

Did God wish that those people he utterly destroyed would be saved? And if so, does that mean God had to cede to the "free will" of those people? This notion is preposterous.


Of course God wanted those people to be saved, but not under ANY circumstances. If God wanted them dead from the very beginning then he would never have grieved afterwards, would he? God gives man a period of time during which they have an opportunity to submit to him or not. If they fail to do so during that timespan, then it is obvious that they never will, and God cannot possibly allow them to continue to live and breed indefinitely.

If their fate was predetermined then waiting for them to repent would have been pointless, so even here your argument defeats itself.

When God brought those judgments upon the world, did he not destroy everyone? including little children, pregnant women, elderly, etc? You bet he did, and this idea that children or the ignorant are somehow innocent and not deserving of God's righteous wrath is just one of many examples of how this free will doctrine is bankrupt.


You are building up a strawman here. Where did you get the impression that I have any problem with the idea that God punishes and destroys the unrepentant?

#14 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 04:26 PM

Satan was the winner of that test, and therefore won the right to rule over mankind.

WHAT???? If I allow my kids to run the household in order to prove how badly things would fall apart without me, did they win the right to rule over it?

#15 Fred Williams

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 10:54 PM

Quite frankly, the doctrine of free will is what is Satanic.
By it's very definition, it places the sovereignty of God onto mankind.

Firstly, Adam and Eve are the only two human beings that ever had true free will, and they were both deceived by Satan and were cut off from God. God said in the day you eat of this fruit, you will surely die. Did they die that day? not physically, but spiritually they did, right at that moment. Did God not curse the Earth and mankind? so that they could not live forever in their sins? that's what it says in the scriptures fwiw.

God did not author sin, and regarding evil, the Bible does refer to some things God does in his wrath to be an evil thing, but not in the sense that God is evil, but in the sense that punishment and death is an evil consequence which must come because of the law God laid down in the begining.

You mentioned Hitler...

Does the Bible not say that God raises up kings, nations, and also put them down?
Does the Bible not demonstrate how God brings evil leaders to evil people?

Shall there be violence in the city and the Lord hath not done it?

You bet God raised up Adolf Hitler, that's Bible.

God doesn't create the evil men do, but what he does do is release his hand of restraint in the world, both in governments and individuals alike. I don't know how you can gloss over verses that say "God gave them up" or "gave them over to", I really don't.

This is the problem with free will doctrines, they start from the begining with a completely wrong assumption.

When God says there are none that seeketh after God, no not one...how do you twist that, brother?
When Jesus says "I pray not for the world, but for those that the father hath given me" how do you twist that?

The key to understanding where the human race really stands (by nature) with God is to go back to the begining, when Adam and Eve fell into sin, they and their descendants were removed from the book of life.

The human race is removed from the book of life at the fall, and yet we know that Abel was a saved man, how is that possible without the shedding of Christ's blood as stated in the Bible?

God declares in the Bible that Christ was the lamb slain BEFORE the foundations of the world. how can this be twisted, brother?

"Many are called, few are chosen" ..... in principle, the call of God does go to the entire human race, but the problem is that no one can or will answer that call without divine intervention.

Let's take the free will doctrine and apply it to the greatest example of predestination in the Bible (IMO):

The crucifixion of Christ and the two thieves.

Both thieves were reviling Christ in their teeth, then one suddenly changes and humbles his heart, asking the Lord Jesus to remember him when he enters his kingdom.

So....

One of two possibilities exists here:

1. Both thieves were free agents with free will, and for some reason, one was somewhat better than the other because he "decided" on his own free will to repent, humble himself, and ask Christ to remember him.
(the bible absolutely will not allow this for a host of reasons)

2. One thief was elect, the other was not, and when the elect thief heard the words of Jesus on the cross (who never ceased to be God) - faith cometh by hearing the word of God, his soul was changed at that moment by God almighty, and the evidence of that born again status was his sudden repentance and humble attitude.

You can't have it any other way...either the thieves were sovereign, and one decided for good whereas the other did not, or it was all in the divine plan of God almighty.


Why did you fail to address any of the scriptures I raised?

Fred



#16 Salsa

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 02:47 AM

Because if God's will is that no human being would be lost or that all would be saved, what you're really saying is that man's will trumps God's will, and that his will and grace is not irresistable as the Bible clearly states it is.

You can't have it both ways, either man is the sovereign, or God is.


Believing in free will does not have any conflicts with the sovereignty of God. As long as God lays out the boundaries within which our freedom to choose can be exercised, his sovereignty remains intact.

Neither does free will conflict with the concept of God's election as depicted in John 15:16.

God clearly chooses us rather the opposite way around, but interpreting that as meaning that all of mankind is completely void of free will completely ignores the context and goes WAY beyond what is written.

The context is election.

But when does election occur and what is it based on?

From a Calvinistic viewpoint, election is a ridiculously meaningless exercise.

It has God designing something beforehand that he knows he is going to choose, along with others that he knows he is going to reject, puts them on the table and says "Hmm, I think I'm going to pick this one and that one..."

It just doesn't make sense.

What does make sense, and what scripture repeatedly tells us - is that God tests the heart and makes spiritual judgments about the nations and the people that he selects. It makes sense, doesn't break scripture, and doesn't go beyond what is written.

A healthy and sound doctrine HAS to be balanced. An unhealty one rips out verses and goes to extremes. A Good doctrine balances one verse against another in order to keep things in proportion.

Calvinism is BAD doctrine. It ignores context, nullifies scripture and creates apathy. This is what it was designed to do.
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#17 ikester7579

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 02:51 PM

Free will doctrines ultimately lead to "works gospels"


Just like osas leads to sinful salvation. Gotta have that ticket to sin, or the excuse to do it. Christ died to forgive sin not to condone it.

It's unavoidable, if you have free will, then by implication, you must "do something" no matter how small to participate in your salvation, whether it be by water baptism, or "accepting Christ", or through visions and dreams, lying signs and wonders, etc. etc.


Yep, that lazy doctrine where you don;t have to show a single soul salvation. In fact, why even have churches if we are predestined and don't have to do a thing? Church does you no good when your destination is predetermined and everyone else goes to hell and there is no one to bring to salvation.

So why do Calvinists have church when there is nothing to do because God forbid it might be work? Going to church is work I guess it's a sin to go, right? Even preaching is work. Come to think of it posting here to promote your view is work. So you working your way to Heaven?

What's your point of promoting Calvinism if we are predestined anyway? Is not your effort in vain since what you do makes no difference? Predestination makes all efforts of Calvinists in vain because of predestination.

The bottom line is, if you have free will to accept or deny Christ, then Christ must wait for you to make the decision, and therefore you become the sovereign in the matter, and the Bible simply will not allow this.


We are all puppets and God is our puppet master, that's Calvinism. Yep, that freewill sin is worst than blasphemy, right?

#18 jason777

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 09:18 AM

God is just. That means that he cursed all equally. How could he curse the descendants of Adam and bless them too? By grace, through a covenant and a promise made to Abraham, which later changed to a better covenant, which included all people through the blood of Christ. No man shall ever see God except through blood; His own or the blood of Christ.

In short, God sees no man. He only sees the Son he sacrificed or the Sons of Adam, which he cursed. So, how could God control the life of any man he has never seen or known? He is either under the authority of Christ or he is under the authority of Satan. That choice is made by us not God. How can there be a race or a prize if faith was just given out? How many times have they just given out free crowns and all you had to do was just be born? If there is a race and a prize at the end, then it must be mans decision to run it.

Not to be confused with mans righteousness, which are filthy rags. Examples are part of the school of Christ, which he shows us to avoid. If man knows how to be saved, then there is no need to be taught. First we must learn how to race and what to race for, then we are let loose to run.



Enjoy.

#19 Jeffrox

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:50 PM

I am a semi-calvinist... And as time will allow I would like to tackle a few of the arguementa made here... Though to be honest, obviously I am out numbered, and most likely I will be overwhelmed, so much like nyctreeman I wont be able to respond to all of the arguements.

The problem with this whole debate, is Armenians don't understand the calvinists position. And its obvious when they make the claim that calvinists have no free will. Or when they say things like "Calvinists think they have a license to sin"

To be honest I think some of you guys were a little harsh."

Ikester I got this feeling you were implying that calvinism is like a cult...

And Fred you seem to be implying calvinism is of Satan... That's harsh. Perhaps fighting or arguing in the church is of satan. But are you so confident in your knowledge of the bible? Is it not possible for you to be on error on 1 doctrine? Of you are, does it mean some of your beliefs could be of satan?

Point is, no one knows everything about the bible. Anyways, ill try to tackle some of the arguments. Remember, we're all brothers and sisters here. 1 God, 1 Christ, one way.

Edit; sorry bout all the typos... I'm typing from my phone... Ill fox it up later.

#20 ikester7579

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 03:48 AM

I am a semi-calvinist... And as time will allow I would like to tackle a few of the arguementa made here... Though to be honest, obviously I am out numbered, and most likely I will be overwhelmed, so much like nyctreeman I wont be able to respond to all of the arguements.

The problem with this whole debate, is Armenians don't understand the calvinists position. And its obvious when they make the claim that calvinists have no free will. Or when they say things like "Calvinists think they have a license to sin"

To be honest I think some of you guys were a little harsh."

Ikester I got this feeling you were implying that calvinism is like a cult...

And Fred you seem to be implying calvinism is of Satan... That's harsh. Perhaps fighting or arguing in the church is of satan. But are you so confident in your knowledge of the bible? Is it not possible for you to be on error on 1 doctrine? Of you are, does it mean some of your beliefs could be of satan?

Point is, no one knows everything about the bible. Anyways, ill try to tackle some of the arguments. Remember, we're all brothers and sisters here. 1 God, 1 Christ, one way.

Edit; sorry bout all the typos... I'm typing from my phone... Ill fox it up later.


Well I'll ask you a question to make you ponder something.
1) Was the truth known only when Calvin found it?
2) Did everyone before Calvin believe in a lie?

When man comes up with a truth that is so different from everyone else, and makes a denomination-doctrine out of it, it makes it look just like a cult.

Some of the signs of a cult are (in my opinion):

1) When you have no control or freewill to choose salvation... Predestination to the degree Calvinist teach it is exactly that. The Jehovah Witness believe in a very similar thing. That only a certain number of the "elect" will go to heaven. The elect and the predestined are the same thing.

2) A cult will teach you that "they are the only ones with truth". That every one else believes a lie and is probably going to hell. They forbid the individual to search the truth out for themselves even though we will be individually judged for what we believed.

3) A cult will tell you who you can associate with. Not to stray to far from the fold because the heretics from other beliefs might get ya.

4) A cult always has a man (in this case Calvin) that they exalt as the only person who has ever led anyone to truth.

5) A cult will name their doctrine after the man they claim is the only one who knows the truth.

6) A cult will put a man between Christ and the congregation. Basically bringing back the old ways of having a priest even though they may never claim he is one. Anytime a man is put between the the congregation and Jesus, the truth becomes dictated by man and not Christ.

Example: There are many great men from the past that have figured out many truths about the Bible. But they did not have a denomination built on their belief and then named after them. The glory goes to Christ, not us. Do you think God will say: Because you are a Calvinist, and believed what Calvin said as the only truth, you may enter Calvinist heaven? You see when you take the glory of truth and give credit unto man instead of Christ, then the salvation of the whole thing is no longer about Christ.

I would not want a doctrine, a Bible, a church, or a denomination named after me because God gets the glory, not me. the truth I find or am able to understand is because God has allowed me to. Not Calvin.

7) A cult will use fear as it main control telling you that you can never leave or you will be damned for hell. To go to any other church will ensure this.

8) A cult has a predetermined truth. And they will make the Bible conform to it totally ignoring all the verses that contradict it as if those verses did not even exist. And they will blame it on misinterpretation. Which also implies that they are the only ones who can interpret the Bible correctly.

The truth was known way before Calvin appeared on the scene, and will not change. The reason Christ came to die was because the priests from the old covenant had corrupted the way. So upon dying and rising from the dead Christ became our only high priest. Placing Calvin in the middle is just like placing the old covenant priest back into power.

Man is fallible, Calvin is fallible. Which also means the doctrine by him is also fallible. No one man can know the perfect truth, it is not comprehensible. So when you refer to yourself as a Calvinist, does that mean you follow Christ or Calvin?

The only person between me and God is the Son of God.




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