The thread starter post by ikester7579:
God can only judge those who "knew" that what they do is wrong. Because sin has to be understood before a person can realize that they need to get help, and ask forgiveness and repent. A person who does not know this will never come to this understanding and therefore is not responsible. Because you have to know good before you know what's bad.
Now some people will use this "not knowing what's wrong" as justification before others. In doing so they actually admit to knowing by even claiming this. And besides, God judges by what's in our hearts. Our heart does not lie so He will know who is claiming innocence, but really knows and hides behind a lie. People can fool men, but you cannot fool God.
God will judge certain sins for those who:
1) Having the knowledge that what is being done is wrong.
2) Not seeking help or forgiveness and to repent when you know you need it.
3) Not being mentally ill enough to not know what should be done.
4) Claiming innocence when it does not apply.
God will not judge certain sins for those who:
1) Do not understand that the sin was wrong.
2) To mentally ill to know right from wrong.
3) Was mentally damaged and does not understand.
4) Or for some reason did not have a choice.
If the judgment were easier, then all sin could be justified and Christ dying on the cross would not be needed.
To sun it up:
Knowledge of what you do as being wrong means you are guilty and will be judged as such. And you will be held responsible for asking forgiveness and repenting (abstaining) from sin.
Not knowing or understanding what's wrong means you could not have known to do the right thing. And therefore cannot be judged for what you did not know.
I believe that this may cover some who did not get a chance to know Christ because they were never introduced for one reason or another. And the mentally ill because they could never be made to understand. And children of a innocent mind who never got to make the choice.
The real answer is, it doesn't matter how you were born or what you understand.
If you want to see how God really sees the human race, start with Psalm 58, which is some very ugly language.
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"
Furthermore, God explains who the "wicked" are in many places in the scriptures, like Romans 3 for example.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The fact is that the entire human race from the fall of Adam on is judged exactly the same way, Guilty at birth
We are all born in sin and destined for eternal damnation from God unless God intervenes by changing our flawed soul.
When Adam and Eve fell, we all fell with them, as we were all in the loins of the first humans (think DNA) and God did go through the motions of looking at the corridors of time to see if there was a single human being that would ever be innocent or without sin, and guess what? No not one as Romans 3 tells us.
God then determined to have a people for himself, and as the sovereign creator of everything that is, he selected his elect in his own good pleasure and absolute justice before the foundations of the world, that's what the scriptures say. And those people are represented very well in the parable of the hidden treasure in the field. Of course God obey's his own laws, and therefore he had to provide someone to suffer the death the elect would deserve, which is a mind boggling concept if you think a bit on it.
No one can bring anyone to salvation, no one can convince anyone to get right with God, and the Bible doesn't tell us to, it tells us to be witnesses and occupy until God returns, so there is NO SUCH THING as an innocent child, they are the same in God's eyes as anyone else.
Anyone can take the Bible out of context to make a new doctrine. Are you here to promote and preach Calvinism?
Nope, not at all.
I don't know how you can say I'm taking the Bible out of context...you cannot read the entire Bible without seeing a very clear and unambiguous message of God's sovereignty in all matters, which btw, is one of the reasons Christianity is so hated around the world.
I believe the Bible in it's original autographs, is the complete and divinely inspired word of God for the human race, every word was carefully chosen by God, not the people who were penning the words, and through this miraculous document, God speaks to the world, both elect and non-elect. To some he gives a hearing ear and a discerning eye, and to others he sends strong delusion.
The Bible is full of examples that defy any attempt of modern liberal theology to set up false doctrines like the age of accountability that most churches accept for some reason...probably because since children and babies die now and then, it wouldn't be very popular for the minister to tell the flock and the parents that the child may or may not be in heaven.
This entire notion of man's free will in relationship to God and salvation is a fabrication to ease our sensitive egos. It is the notion of free will btw, which forces churches to create false doctrines like age of accountability, otherwise the whole thing falls apart instantly.
When you read a verse like "I stand at the door and knock..." etc, that is only a piece of the story. Yes, God sends the call out to the entire world, but if you harmonize the verses that indicate this with the rest of the bible statements on the subject, you find that the call goes unanswered because the entire human race is "dead in their sins", which means spiritually dead.
So when Jesus stands at the door and knocks, who will open and let him in? The rest of the Bible clearly says that no one will. Jesus said no man may come to me unless the father who sent me draw him first. Where's the free will in that?
In regards to those who never had a chance to know Christ;
God never made provisions for them. See Romans 9:21-24
21 - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 - And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 - Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Clearly God is telling us here that some people are simply not elected in God's plan.
And in John 15:16 he says
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
The sad reality of this world and the state of mankind is, that not a single person would ever seek after the true God or "accept" Christ of their own free will and nature, it's impossible, we cannot do it, and to suggest that someone can "decide" for Christ or "accept" his grace from within their own being, is to suggest that we contribute something to our own salvation.
More importantly, that would mean we could frustrate the will of God, ie: if God's desire was to save me, but I could resist his grace or will, I have therefore made myself the sovereign in this scenario, and the Bible simply will not tolerate that, likewise that would mean that those who do not "choose" for Christ are somehow not as good as those who do, which the Bible will also not tolerate.
A good illustration of this is the man who picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath Day, he wasn't a terrible person, he only violated a tiny portion of the law, a seemingly insignificant and minor offense, he picked up a few sticks. And God had him killed, and if you read the rest of the following verses in that story, you will see that God goes into language of outer darkness and eternal destruction, wholly indicating that this is also an analogy for anyone who does a little bit of work on the Sabbath, which in our day is the same thing as people who think they have contributed just a tiny bit to their relationship with God.
Something every Christian should read and ponder every day from Matthew 7:21-23
21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If Christ says that people who thought of themselves as dedicated Christians who were convinced that they had served God properly, devoted their lives to the good or wonderful works as laid out in Matthew 7, and tried their best to live and serve the way they thought proper...will be turned away and rejected on the last day because he never knew them, WOW, and where does that leave the rest of the world that never heard of Christ?
This is one of the passages that first made me question my own salvation or status with God.
There were two thieves on crosses with Jesus, both were reviling Christ in their teeth, but then without any visible reason why, one thief suddenly humbles his heart and asks Christ to remember him when he gets to his kingdom. The other thief did not. Was one thief better than the other? certainly not. I submit to you that these men both heard the words of Christ as he spoke on the cross, and the holy spirit applied those words to one and not the other. It's the only answer that doesn't violate the scriptures.
I know this is incredibly unpopular, but it is what the scriptures are saying.