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Where Is The Christian God?


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#21 ikester7579

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 04:03 PM

ME,

I love your argument with the blind man! If seeing is believing, then no blind man could every know anything was true. Can I steal this from you and use it in future arguments with atheists?

TeeJay



Yeah that is a good one. The reason God does not show Himself to people are for several reasons.

1) If you were to see God then faith would no longer be needed. And there would be no excuse for not accepting Christ.
2) Judgment without faith equals absolute judgment where there is no leeway. Everything in God's word you would have to do regardless.
3) Judgment with faith (not seeing God) allows leeway to be judged on what you knew or understood concerning God and His Word.

More of an explanation so that the evolutionists can understand. Like in science, being able to observe is a form of empirical evidence. So if you have empirical evidence that God exists and still reject, there is no excuse (leeway) for that rejection, therefore no forgiveness for that rejection. In other words there would be no second chance. No excuse = no leeway and only one chance to make the right choice.

Faith and no empirical evidence allows us leeway and time to make the choice. And if we decide later to change our minds we can. Meaning it's not a one shot deal which allows us more than one chance to make the right choice. In other word, having to have faith gives us the freewill choice to choose and more time to make the right choice. Even up to rejection.

1) Empirical evidence that God exists through observation equals that you either accept that God exists at that point or be forever condemned. And you have only "one chance" to do this.
2) Non-empirical evidence (faith) allows leeway and freewill to choose. If you reject and decide later you made a mistake, you can come back. The other way you don't have that choice.

Seeing how the two work which would you choose?

1) Would you rather "see God" and only have "one chance" to make the right decision, and also there would be "no excuse for sin" so you would have to follow the Bible to a T or else?
2) Would you rather "Not see God" and have the "freewill to choose", and "forgiveness of sin" because faith allows leeway for our imperfections?

#22 Ophiolite

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:34 AM

1) Empirical evidence that God exists through observation equals that you either accept that God exists at that point or be forever condemned. And you have only "one chance" to do this.
2) Non-empirical evidence (faith) allows leeway and freewill to choose. If you reject and decide later you made a mistake, you can come back. The other way you don't have that choice.

Seeing how the two work which would you choose?

1) Would you rather "see God" and only have "one chance" to make the right decision, and also there would be "no excuse for sin" so you would have to follow the Bible to a T or else?
2) Would you rather "Not see God" and have the "freewill to choose", and "forgiveness of sin" because faith allows leeway for our imperfections?

I would absolutely, without question, choose option 1. It is the only logical choice to make.

#23 JayShel

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 09:33 AM

Seeing how the two work which would you choose?

1) Would you rather "see God" and only have "one chance" to make the right decision, and also there would be "no excuse for sin" so you would have to follow the Bible to a T or else?
2) Would you rather "Not see God" and have the "freewill to choose", and "forgiveness of sin" because faith allows leeway for our imperfections?


I disagree with this dichotomy. In the Bible, the people of Israel saw God in the pillar of smoke and fire. God delivered them from a host of problems, and they still rebelled. They also had a means of atonement, which would show that the result of seeing God is not "one chance".

If anything, seeing God would polarize our feelings about Him. We could no longer deny that He exists, but we would still harbor the same feelings toward Him as before (unless maybe we had a chance to interview Him and have a heart change). It is only when we see God's beauty and perfection that we start to love Him. We cannot know how amazing God is unless He reveals Himself and His glory to us somehow, God has to draw us to Himself. The Bible also shows us that we are also very forgetful beings. We tend to forget His commands and substitute our will for His. But yes, if we only had one chance, we would all be condemned.

#24 ikester7579

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 02:46 PM

I would absolutely, without question, choose option 1. It is the only logical choice to make.


Then could you also live up to the absolute perfect life that absolute evidence would require?

Examples of how absolute judgment would be:

1) Why did you sin when you absolutely know that God exists?
2) Why did you not bring everyone you could unto salvation when you absolutely know that God exists?

There is no leeway, no excuse for absolute judgment for absolute empirical evidence. Our imperfections would condemn us under that type of evidence.

#25 ikester7579

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 02:55 PM

I disagree with this dichotomy. In the Bible, the people of Israel saw God in the pillar of smoke and fire. God delivered them from a host of problems, and they still rebelled. They also had a means of atonement, which would show that the result of seeing God is not "one chance".

If anything, seeing God would polarize our feelings about Him. We could no longer deny that He exists, but we would still harbor the same feelings toward Him as before (unless maybe we had a chance to interview Him and have a heart change). It is only when we see God's beauty and perfection that we start to love Him. We cannot know how amazing God is unless He reveals Himself and His glory to us somehow, God has to draw us to Himself. The Bible also shows us that we are also very forgetful beings. We tend to forget His commands and substitute our will for His. But yes, if we only had one chance, we would all be condemned.


You are comparing old covenant things to new covenant things. Old covenant required us to only sacrifice animals for sin atonement. The new covenant requires us to believe in Christ and what He did on the cross. In other words, belief = faith. Very different from the old covenant.

In other words faith was not required so absolute evidence could be presented as was on more than one occasion in the old covenant.

If you have a better explanation for why we must have faith, why God won't show Himself to us when He is able to do so, I'm all ears.

#26 Ophiolite

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 04:14 AM

Then could you also live up to the absolute perfect life that absolute evidence would require?

Examples of how absolute judgment would be:

1) Why did you sin when you absolutely know that God exists?
2) Why did you not bring everyone you could unto salvation when you absolutely know that God exists?

There is no leeway, no excuse for absolute judgment for absolute empirical evidence. Our imperfections would condemn us under that type of evidence.

The simple answer ikester is that God, if she exists, is not the God you believe in, but an infintely more forgiving (or possibly infinitely more indifferent) God than mine.

By the way, perhaps I missed the relevant post, but you seemed to have changed the goal posts. At what point in defining the choices did you stipulate that having accepted the reality of God I was now prohibited from asking for and receving forgiveness? That sounds like a particular interpretation of Christian theology. I await an education from you in the matter.

#27 ikester7579

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:02 AM

The simple answer ikester is that God, if she exists, is not the God you believe in, but an infintely more forgiving (or possibly infinitely more indifferent) God than mine.


LOL, you attempt to make me mad by calling God a she is quite funny. And your push of a God that would push universalism (most all go to heaven) is funny as well. Hell exists for a reason.

By the way, perhaps I missed the relevant post, but you seemed to have changed the goal posts. At what point in defining the choices did you stipulate that having accepted the reality of God I was now prohibited from asking for and receving forgiveness? That sounds like a particular interpretation of Christian theology. I await an education from you in the matter.


And your twisting of my words is quite amusing. But if you are going to waste time with this by acting the fool and twisting my words I must warn you that time wasters usually don't last long here.

#28 jason

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:10 AM

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


per hebrews 11 paul or the writer seems to say otherwise.

they operated in faith. and yet those isrealites seeing that pillar of smoke and the cloud of fire still doubted. seeing doesnt equate to believing.

they seen all the miracles and all of them that did see that never saw the promise land save two, joshua and caleb.
funny that you say that they had faith.

#29 Ron

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 07:57 AM

The simple answer ikester is that God, if she exists, is not the God you believe in, but an infintely more forgiving (or possibly infinitely more indifferent) God than mine.


So your god is a female then? Funny, I thought you were agnostic!

Further, I would wonder where your evidence for this female god is...



Also; this OP was predicated upon a question concerning the Christian God:

If the Christian God is true, then where is it now?


Is it really your intent to sidetrack the conversation with talk about your “non-Christian” “female” god then?

Or is it simply your intent to side-track the conversation by any means possible…

I’m not sure whether you want to actually waste peoples time like that.

#30 Ron

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 08:35 AM

1) Empirical evidence that God exists through observation equals that you either accept that God exists at that point or be forever condemned. And you have only "one chance" to do this.

I would absolutely, without question, choose option 1. It is the only logical choice to make.


Okay, we’ll go with that, but that means YOU have to adhere to it as well!

The life of Jesus, His ministry, miracles, death, burial, resurrection and ascension were verified by numerous first hand eyewitness testimonies. And in many of these first hand eyewitness testimonies, the eyewitnesses provided numerous accounts of actions that only God could do (the Christian God as per the New Testament AND the OP). Further, even Jesus Him-self claimed no not only be on equal footing with God, but to be God as well! AND in numerous portions of these eye-witnessed testimonies the witnesses say that not only did Jesus tell them to test His deity, but that they did indeed “empirically test” him (handled Him, spoke with Him severally, ate with Him etc…) One only need read John Chapter Twenty to see some of this in action.

Therefore we have first-hand eye-witnessed empirical evidence for Gods existence, through the personage of Jesus Christ. So are you good for your word, or are you going to attempt to wriggle out of it?

in other words; are you going to be logical or illogical...

#31 JayShel

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:24 PM

You are comparing old covenant things to new covenant things. Old covenant required us to only sacrifice animals for sin atonement. The new covenant requires us to believe in Christ and what He did on the cross. In other words, belief = faith. Very different from the old covenant.

I can see your point here. I have always had the impression that God wants to be accepted by faith, not by worldly knowledge. Going back to your earlier post I see some things in this light which help clairfy what you are saying:

1) If you were to see God then faith would no longer be needed. And there would be no excuse for not accepting Christ.
2) Judgment without faith equals absolute judgment where there is no leeway. Everything in God's word you would have to do regardless.
3) Judgment with faith (not seeing God) allows leeway to be judged on what you knew or understood concerning God and His Word.



#32 Ron

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:27 AM



You are comparing old covenant things to new covenant things. Old covenant required us to only sacrifice animals for sin atonement. The new covenant requires us to believe in Christ and what He did on the cross. In other words, belief = faith. Very different from the old covenant.

I can see your point here. I have always had the impression that God wants to be accepted by faith, not by worldly knowledge. Going back to your earlier post I see some things in this light which help clairfy what you are saying:

1) If you were to see God then faith would no longer be needed. And there would be no excuse for not accepting Christ.
2) Judgment without faith equals absolute judgment where there is no leeway. Everything in God's word you would have to do regardless.
3) Judgment with faith (not seeing God) allows leeway to be judged on what you knew or understood concerning God and His Word.





Of course God wants us to know Him by “faith”; but that faith isn’t the “blind faith” that the skeptic or Bible scoffer espouses (or in fact uses when promulgating their blind faith in macro-evolution or abiogenesis etc…) we are told and commanded (an it is inferred as well) throughout the New Testament to test what is said up against the Words of Christ, the testimonies of the first-hand eyewitnesses and our own changed lives through Christ to insure the truth is being given! Our faith is increased in these ways, and these ways are based in said testing
!

#33 JayShel

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:29 AM

Of course God wants us to know Him by “faith”; but that faith isn’t the “blind faith” that the skeptic or Bible scoffer espouses (or in fact uses when promulgating their blind faith in macro-evolution or abiogenesis etc…) we are told and commanded (an it is inferred as well) throughout the New Testament to test what is said up against the Words of Christ, the testimonies of the first-hand eyewitnesses and our own changed lives through Christ to insure the truth is being given! Our faith is increased in these ways, and these ways are based in said testing


This is why I am here, and this is why I have read about historicity of the Bible and other apologetics. I start off with faith in God and questions about God. It is normal to have questions about someone you have never known before, to maybe have heard some bad things about them that need to be resolved. If I started digging into the Bible and found nothing to be true, or some irresolvable conflict, it would definitely be a stumbling block. Since I find truth in the Bible, and there are strong internal proofs of the Bible, and I can ask tough questions and find good solid answers, then my faith is strengthened. Blind faith would just not be satisfying. To know God you have to seek Him out, and continually pursue Him.

#34 jason

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:19 PM

abraham believed by faith. yes faith according to the bible is never blind. we dont leap out there and hope god exists. we have an expercience with god then act on that.

is it testable via science,no, but you bet ya when you heard him speak and you responded and you know it. it was something only you know to be as a fact.

whenever an athiest denies god and goes to such extremes to do so it confirms my faith. its sad that in order to deny something they have to go to such extremes.

i dont argue like that over zeus and other gods.

#35 JayShel

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 01:11 PM

abraham believed by faith. yes faith according to the bible is never blind. we dont leap out there and hope god exists. we have an expercience with god then act on that.

is it testable via science,no, but you bet ya when you heard him speak and you responded and you know it. it was something only you know to be as a fact.

(underline added)


I agree. I have vividly head God's voice twice. It is not something that I expect any atheist to believe, but it definitely cemented my belief in the God of the Bible. Also, Jesus has said:

“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you... because they do not know Him who sent Me." -John 15:18-21


So people persecute us because they hate God, not just what we are saying.

To confirm I quote from Paul:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. -Ephesians 6:12


Which reveals why so many cling to evolution to explain history.

whenever an athiest denies god and goes to such extremes to do so it confirms my faith. its sad that in order to deny something they have to go to such extremes.

i dont argue like that over zeus and other gods.
(underline added)


To quote Paul in Timothy;

2 Timothy 3:1-5, 10-14
"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God…. And from such people turn away!
"…all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned ..."


So it not only affirms our faith, but also fulfills prophecy, and we can expect it to get worse, not better.

#36 Jeebus

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 01:16 PM

Hmmmm, something smells about this post. Could this be nothing more than a thread posted for creating a spectacle? I would wonder what answer (other than the obvious answers found in the Bible) would be acceptable to the starter of the thread?

Further, I could counter with like questions (that would actually be more pertinent and damaging ) to the atheist:

1- If materialistic atheism is true, then where is the empirical evidence for our origins?

2- If materialistic atheism is true, then where is the empirical evidence for something come from nothing?

3- If materialistic atheism is true, then where is the empirical evidence for life come from non-life and intelligence come from non-intelligence?

4- If atheists weren't so fearful of God (and Christianity), why would atheists like Stalin, Pol Pot (etc…) persecute and murder millions of Christians?

5- If the atheist weren’t so fearful of God (and Christianity), why would they come onto forums and ask questions about God and the Bible, when the answers to their questions are found IN the Bible (Gods Word). Then they use as their evidence, those who claim to follow Jesus, but act ‘contrary’ to the words of Jesus. Or they use as evidence that they haven’t personally felt or seen evidence of this God that they don’t believe exists, and then outright deny those who have experienced a relationship with Him, without having a shred of negative evidence refuting the Christian’s relationship with the historical Jesus of the Bible.

Hmmmmm, something seems very odd about the OP, but questions one through three provide that the atheist has far mor faith in their religon than the theist!


You could counter simply by creating straw men such as you did above but I won't mention that.....

#37 jason

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 02:13 PM

hmm i wont go into too much an end times, but im closest to partial preterist.

these types arent knew. i could say very old, the pharisees, the children of isreal, and also others.

#38 Ron

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 02:51 PM


Hmmmm, something smells about this post. Could this be nothing more than a thread posted for creating a spectacle? I would wonder what answer (other than the obvious answers found in the Bible) would be acceptable to the starter of the thread?

Further, I could counter with like questions (that would actually be more pertinent and damaging ) to the atheist:

1- If materialistic atheism is true, then where is the empirical evidence for our origins?

2- If materialistic atheism is true, then where is the empirical evidence for something come from nothing?

3- If materialistic atheism is true, then where is the empirical evidence for life come from non-life and intelligence come from non-intelligence?

4- If atheists weren't so fearful of God (and Christianity), why would atheists like Stalin, Pol Pot (etc…) persecute and murder millions of Christians?

5- If the atheist weren’t so fearful of God (and Christianity), why would they come onto forums and ask questions about God and the Bible, when the answers to their questions are found IN the Bible (Gods Word). Then they use as their evidence, those who claim to follow Jesus, but act ‘contrary’ to the words of Jesus. Or they use as evidence that they haven’t personally felt or seen evidence of this God that they don’t believe exists, and then outright deny those who have experienced a relationship with Him, without having a shred of negative evidence refuting the Christian’s relationship with the historical Jesus of the Bible.

Hmmmmm, something seems very odd about the OP, but questions one through three provide that the atheist has far mor faith in their religon than the theist!


You could counter simply by creating straw men such as you did above but I won't mention that.....


First - You can attempt to explain how it is a straw man
Second - You can read the forum rules conserning "Negative One Liners".

#39 MamaElephant

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 12:04 AM

abraham believed by faith. yes faith according to the bible is never blind. we dont leap out there and hope god exists. we have an expercience with god then act on that.

is it testable via science,no, but you bet ya when you heard him speak and you responded and you know it. it was something only you know to be as a fact.

Amen!

Yes, but I remember that the Holy Spirit is within me controlling my thoughts, words, actions... my thoughts, words, actions are not my own. I am not to receive the glory. So when an atheist is so angry at me for being a Christian... are they in full control of their thoughts, words, actions? Why are we told to love our enemies? To pray for our enemies and those persecuting us? "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Yes, I love my enemies. I love them so much it hurts. Just like my Lord. "How often I longed to gather you under my wings" says my Lord. Yes Lord, it is so sad when they don't want it. But we love them.

#40 JayShel

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 08:59 AM

Amen!

Yes, but I remember that the Holy Spirit is within me controlling my thoughts, words, actions... my thoughts, words, actions are not my own. I am not to receive the glory. So when an atheist is so angry at me for being a Christian... are they in full control of their thoughts, words, actions? Why are we told to love our enemies? To pray for our enemies and those persecuting us? "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Yes, I love my enemies. I love them so much it hurts. Just like my Lord. "How often I longed to gather you under my wings" says my Lord. Yes Lord, it is so sad when they don't want it. But we love them.


Deffinitely something I need to work on, loving my enemies.




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