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Arguments Against Christian Theistic Evolution


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#1 jason

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 05:46 PM

i have used the basic oral tradition of the sages when i can find them and also what the bible does say.

anything else?

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:12 PM

List what you have and we can add to them. This way this thread becomes a learning tool.

#3 JayShel

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:13 PM

Im not really sure what your question is here. Seems like you are asking this:

"What are some good arguments against theistic evolution besides scientific evidence against evolution and the strong reasons to interpret Genesis literally as 24 hour days?"

Is that what you are asking?

#4 jason

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 04:48 AM

from a theological perspective.

1) according to the sages genesis was meant to be taken as it said and was an apologetic story to abraham from noah.
2) IF the days are long ages, there cant be long nights and long days
3) exodus for in six days god made the heavens and the earth and he rested on the seventh day..
4) the ot and jewish delination of a soul. five words for it and the earth has a soul
5) the allusion to the above by paul in romans
6) the millenial perfection by the earth whereby we all go back to being vegatarians not omnivores

#5 JayShel

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 09:39 AM

never heard to points four and five.

#6 jason

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:00 AM

never heard to points four and five.


paul in romans says that whole creation cries out for redemtion.
romans 8

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


and in is 66

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.



#7 jason

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:01 AM

now then i have te that wont listen and has countered this stuff. i dont think he will change but i want ammo so that if he or others like him go south i can deflate their positions.

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 07:07 PM

from a theological perspective.

1) according to the sages genesis was meant to be taken as it said and was an apologetic story to abraham from noah.
2) IF the days are long ages, there cant be long nights and long days
3) exodus for in six days god made the heavens and the earth and he rested on the seventh day..
4) the ot and jewish delination of a soul. five words for it and the earth has a soul
5) the allusion to the above by paul in romans
6) the millenial perfection by the earth whereby we all go back to being vegatarians not omnivores


7) If a person is a TE it also means they believe they have a soul that needs to be saved. At what point does a soul evolve and how would it evolve?
8) If a person believes in TE they also believe that Christ died for their sins. Problem is the Bible makes it very clear that it was one man's sin that condemn the whole world. Where is that first sin in the evolution process that Christ died for so we all could be saved?
9) If all life evolved from a single cell lifeform, why did God make it very clear that he created all life fully formed and ready to multiply after it's own kind?
10) If life has the ability to evolve into anything, why did God use the word kind 10 times (like the 10 commandments) while He created each kind?

A few off the top of my head.

#9 JayShel

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 07:44 PM

from a theological perspective.

1) according to the sages genesis was meant to be taken as it said and was an apologetic story to abraham from noah.
2) IF the days are long ages, there cant be long nights and long days
3) exodus for in six days god made the heavens and the earth and he rested on the seventh day..
4) the ot and jewish delination of a soul. five words for it and the earth has a soul
5) the allusion to the above by paul in romans
6) the millenial perfection by the earth whereby we all go back to being vegatarians not omnivores


never heard to points four and five.


paul in romans says that whole creation cries out for redemtion.
romans 8


and in is 66


I was talking about the "the earth has a soul" part. I think i misunderstand? You mean all of creation is affected by the curse? This is what I took those parts of the Bible to mean.

#10 jason

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 08:01 PM

I was talking about the "the earth has a soul" part. I think i misunderstand? You mean all of creation is affected by the curse? This is what I took those parts of the Bible to mean.


yup the sages say that earth has a ruach. and that verse in romans(who knew of the sages by oral traditions) confirmed it.

many christians say that when a bird sings they are praising the lord. yet are often unaware how that is so true and was stated by the sages for years.

does it make sense that the animals dont want to suffer that an animal will often show compassion etc.

te have to deny that fact.jesus never even commented on that part.

#11 jason

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 08:02 PM

11) if a whale or other creature starts talking to us and asks us why and who made us. what then. are they souless?

#12 JayShel

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 09:02 PM

yup the sages say that earth has a ruach. and that verse in romans(who knew of the sages by oral traditions) confirmed it.

many christians say that when a bird sings they are praising the lord. yet are often unaware how that is so true and was stated by the sages for years.

does it make sense that the animals dont want to suffer that an animal will often show compassion etc.

te have to deny that fact.jesus never even commented on that part.


What chapter/verse is this? I believe that animals have intelligence, they draw breath, but to say that they have a soul that will be judged in the same way that ours is? Did Jesus die for the salvation of animals as well as men?

Man’s “pre-emptive authority” over the creation, including the animal kingdom, was demonstrated quite forcefully in a single stroke when God granted mankind permission to kill and eat animals for food (Genesis 9:3-4). Interestingly, however, within the same context God specifically forbade manslaughter “for in the image of God made he man” (Genesis 9:5-6). If man “shares kinship” with animals or if animals possess immortal souls, why would God permit him to kill his own kin—relatives whose souls are no different than his own? As Neale Pryor commented: “Animals also have a ruach [a Hebrew word for “breath” or “life”—BT/SE] (Genesis 6:17). Killing one who has a ruach or nephesh would not necessarily constitute murder; otherwise animals could not be sacrificed or slaughtered” (1974, 5[3]:34). God’s prohibition against murder carried over even into New Testament times (Matthew 19:18). At the same time, however, God broadened the list of animals that men could kill and eat (Acts 10:9-14). Why was it that men could not kill other men, but could kill animals? The answer lies, of course, in the fact that animals were not created “in the image of God.”

[...]

But do animals have souls? Animals may be said to have souls—if the word “soul” is used as the Bible employs it in discussing members of the animal kingdom (i.e., to describe only the physical life force found within all living creatures). But if the word “soul” is used to refer to an immortal soul that one day will inhabit heaven or hell, then no, animals may not be said to possess a soul. This is the only conclusion that can be drawn, respecting the instruction on the subject found within the Word of God. LINK


I do not think that the idea of the earth or animals having a soul is Biblical. If the earth is personified in the Bible, I do not believe that the earth has a literal soul in the sense of a "mother earth", but that it is one giant interrelated "living" ecosystem. I would think it is a poetic description of the earth instead of literal. I would need to look at some examples you have from the Bible to consider this further since I can't think of any off the top of my head.

(maybe we should move this to another thread so we don't derail this one)

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:44 PM

11) if a whale or other creature starts talking to us and asks us why and who made us. what then. are they souless?


If something has a soul, and the whole world is condemn through sin, then that soul has to be saveable. If not then you go into a whole different theology like Calvinism which claims that some were created to go to Heaven while others were created to go to Hell. Because how do you save what you cannot even communicate to? So the idea that any type of animal has a soul means that God allows them all to go to Hell because He created them to be unsaveable. Now does that even make sense?

Now will there be animals in Heaven? Of course. It is said that the lion and the lamb shall lay down together. Will our pets be there? There are 2 options to this:
1) If we are not to remember the things of old (our old life) when we get to Heaven, then if they are not there we won;t miss them.
2) And if they are there then there will be a reunion.

Is it fair to the animal? The animal has no comprehension of eternal life so what is there to be fair about?

Jay Shell,

Side note:
And about derails, this forum allows what we call small derails. As long as:
1) It has something to do with the subject at hand.
2) The thread gets back on tract in a few posts.

If it is determined that the new subject is going to take over the thread it will be given one of it's on and all posts concerning it will be moved to that thread. On the other hand, derails (posts) that have nothing to do with subject at hand will be deleted.

#14 jason

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 04:30 AM

i am not saying animals have a soul like we do,just that the word soul like hell is often missused and misstranslated

case in point. hell is used for hades(not the hell that is described in revalation 20) and also for sheol(same concept as hades ) and also the real hell aka the lake of fire.

nephesh means a body, and that which breathes.

we are over the animals. but that doesnt mean that the animals dont have a soul, kapesh.

when you get into this it will make sense if you reasearch what is taught.


how does the earth groan for redemption?

the df's would say by the earthquakes increasing and so forth.

#15 ikester7579

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 08:02 PM

i am not saying animals have a soul like we do,just that the word soul like hell is often missused and misstranslated case in point. hell is used for hades(not the hell that is described in revalation 20) and also for sheol(same concept as hades ) and also the real hell aka the lake of fire.

nephesh means a body, and that which breathes.


When you imply mistranslation you also imply that the Bible is inaccurate.

we are over the animals. but that doesnt mean that the animals dont have a soul, kapesh.


I still wait for someone who could prove that with scripture. It's a non issue if God did not see it fit to tell us.

when you get into this it will make sense if you reasearch what is taught.


I don't mix my faith with confusing things that God Himself did not even think enough of to mention in his word. Confusion brings doubt.

how does the earth groan for redemption?


Because Hell is held within it.

the df's would say by the earthquakes increasing and so forth.


Hell has to expand while it's being filled.

#16 JayShel

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 10:44 PM

At one point i hear discussion of there being a difference in the Bible between a soul and a spirit, although I can't give specifics, and I don't know if there is, but maybe this is what you are referring to?

#17 MamaElephant

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 11:44 PM

When you imply mistranslation you also imply that the Bible is inaccurate.


Well, actually, he is right. Using the term hell to mean hades or sheol does bring in an inaccuracy. Sheol is not the same as the Lake of Fire, yet some translations use the term hell for both, thus causing confusion. This inaccuracy in translation results in teachers using the fact that sheol and hades are not a place of torment to disprove the doctrine of hell.

Animals will be in heaven, because heaven is wherever the Lord is, and we will be with the Lord forever. But where will the Lord be? Revelation 21:2 "I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven 3 “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them"

#18 MamaElephant

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 11:51 PM

Jason, I will tell you my argument against OEC or TE. I take God at his word. He is not a God of confusion, but of peace. If I have to work hard to decide if something is to be taken literally or not then I can be confused. I can let false teachers tell me that some things were not literal. For example, when Jesus returns and every eye will see him... that is figurative. He has already returned and chosen the Watchtower to be the "faithful slave". When 1 Timothy says that there is one mediator between God and men, that doesn't mean that He is your mediator. When Hebrews says that God used prophets in the past but now He communicates with his Son, that doesn't mean that he still doesn't use prophets... etc, etc,

Taking God at his word freed me from false prophets, a destructive cult, the doctrine of men. Taking God at His word led me to Christ.

#19 ikester7579

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 02:21 AM

Well, actually, he is right. Using the term hell to mean hades or sheol does bring in an inaccuracy. Sheol is not the same as the Lake of Fire, yet some translations use the term hell for both, thus causing confusion. This inaccuracy in translation results in teachers using the fact that sheol and hades are not a place of torment to disprove the doctrine of hell.


And that is the reason I stick with the older translations because they are closer to the original meaning. The copyright laws making it to where every other translation has to be at least 10% different from every other existing translation means that a lot of the effort put forward on the newer translations was based on not breaking copyright laws. The older versions did not have to worry about that so much and could concentrate more on making the translation with the right meaning.

Animals will be in heaven, because heaven is wherever the Lord is, and we will be with the Lord forever. But where will the Lord be? Revelation 21:2 "I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven 3 “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them"


Yes I agree. But when most people talk about animals in Heaven they usually are referring to their personal pets. Because the Bible never even addresses that it's a grey area. But if you use the Bible as an example the answer maybe when God created the animals a lot of people don't realize that he created 2 sets of animals for 2 separate places that contained life.

The first creation of animals is in the usual place in the Bible Genesis chapter 1, The second place the creation of animals was for the Garden of Eden so that Adam could name them.
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

If the creation of animals has to be separate between where God dwells (Garden of Eden) with man, and the animals the dwell upon earth. Then it would only seem feasible that the creation of animals for earth could not enter Heaven as much the same that the animals that were in the Garden of Eden were a separate creation from the rest of the animals of the earth, Even before we can enter Heaven we will get new bodies. This is because what is corruptable (our earthly flesh) cannot enter into Heaven.

#20 jason

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 04:39 AM

their are five words for soul.

the nephesh, chaya,ruach, yechidah and one other i have forgotten.

in the nt theres three. soma and psuche and psyche. all these are used to define soul

http://www.tripartit...ition/body.html

so the flesh doesnt need a nephesh to live? animals need breath that is what i mean.when god breathed into man he imparted himself into him but that doesnt mean animals dont breath

nephesh means that which breathes. plants breathe!

. What is the biblical definition of "the soul" ? How is it different from the "spirit"? Is there a difference between the way the Old Testament and the New Testament use the two words? (Peoria, Az.)
In the Old Testament the Hebrew word for "soul" is nephesh. Nephesh means "a person," "breath," or "soul" or "life." Just as there is a difference between atoms and electrons, there is a difference between the soul and the spirit. One is finer than the other. The core of an atom is the smallest particle thereof.
The soul or life is subject to death, but the spirit is indestructible.
Jesus said in John 6:63:
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
This is a reference to the fact that the teaching of the Lord will lead to "eternal" life for the "spirit" (person) who accepts and obeys His Word. The word "soul" could have been used by the Lord here to indicate a person, if He so desired, but the word "spirit" is much more definitive. The "soul" of man contains the "spirit," however, when the "soul" of man dies, the "spirit" leaves the body and returns to God.
Eccl. 12:7
"then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
The "soul" or life, or body, is subject to death and resurrection, but the spirit is the essence of life. The spirit can depart from a person just as it departs from the soul (James 2:26 -"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.")
Animals are said to have "soul" in the sense that they have life. However, they are never considered identical with men, for men were created in God's image and endowed with His spirit. Animals do not have "spirit."
In the Greek N.T. "psuchee" is translated soul . It appears 103 times in the N.T., translated life 41 times, soul 57 times,mind 3 times, heart one time, heartily one time. Most significantly it is never rendered by the word spirit



that is the gist of what i am saying. many people dont realise that!
http://www.scripture....php?cat&id=336


i no longer just read the bible i do read what the sages say on this, and the jews have commentaries that predate christ theres alot that we dont know behind the scenes that the jews then did know.HOWEVER, I DONT AGREE with all that they say. commentaries are just that statements by fallable men.

you pre-tribbers often quote 666 as being the mark of the beast

were in the entire bible is numerology allowed? its not even stated where that came from but by oral tradition of the hebrew gemetria is where it came from.

and yes hell is often misstranslated even by the kjv. its sheol, hades and gehenna which hasnt occured yet because we havent hit the judgment yet. the dead havent been raised for the final judgment.




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