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#1 Quaker Reason

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:26 AM

http://www.equip.org...ook-of-genesis-

#2 Legion22

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:26 AM

Genesis 1:24

And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”



Evolution agrees with this.

#3 Quaker Reason

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 03:08 PM

Genesis 1:24

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Evolution agrees with this.

http://www.equip.org...istic-evolution

Depending on how you interpret that.

#4 jason

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:07 PM

this reminds of the arguments with barbarian already eric.lol

but these guys are more then able to back you up. and no the bible isnt compatible with evolution at all.

#5 Legion22

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:11 PM

The passage I posted IS.

And the Pope disagrees with you.

#6 jason

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:25 PM

the pope is catholic

the catholic killed jews, in the past and while other 'christians ' did this they repented and did not pervert the gospel as bad in fact the reformers corrected that catholic issue

the rcc has mary worship going on in many churches. thus what the pope does say has no bearing on this protestant. i am of jewish descent and i hold much of the dislike and distrust on the catholics.

i however do know that many catholics dont believe in evolution nor are all catholics sinners and damned to hell.

Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone
who fled to your protection,
implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided.
Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you,
O Virgin of virgins, our Mother.
To you we come, before you we stand,
sinful and sorrowful.
O Mother of the Word Incarnate,
do not despise our petitions,
but in your mercy hear us and answer us.
Amen



from here

http://www.ourladywe...ry-prayers.html

and i can also post old catholic commentaries that is still held by the magisterium and the pope didnt make the toe a dogma in the intepretation of genesis. so the magisterium doesn teach that. i can fetch their commentary on this part if you like and its no different then why i was taught

and my mother and her side were catholics. so dont think i hate them. but i am well aware of their faults. i have a ton of issues with the heads of that church but not the individual catholics.

i have attended mass a few years back and my granddaughter goes to mass regulary.

i do have a catholic friend on the other forum who is sweet saint and doenst post nonesense and he and i often talk and agree.

#7 jason

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:27 PM

now then if the mods would like to allow i will show how that this is a trend of bad things in the rcc. so why would i believe a church that does this? see that prayer to mary for removal of sins. in now book of the bible does any saint on the earth have the power to forgive sins like jesus does. we may forgive others as they offend us but not for sins that werent done to us. we cant grant absolution.

#8 Legion22

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:34 PM

The Catholic Church, whatever crimes it has committed, still represents the single largest denomination of Christians on Earth.

The official position of the largest group of Christians in the world is that evolution and the Bible are compatible.

#9 Portillo

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:42 PM

The catholic church is the wh*re of Babylon.

#10 jason

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:54 PM

so they are then wrong. if god did it by size then we would all be jewish as all the jews thought the lord wasnt messiah

there are saved individual in the rcc but its corrupt.and has been for some time.


sorry large demonationalism or numbers dont impress god at all.

i can also say with this statement on

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.
While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.


now then if the proto humans lied and killed and murdered and so forth( we can assume if so that they did as apes and primates are social animals and humans are) and theres many papers that speculate on this and a whole field of study.

"My research could have implications for the ancient burial rights of North American Indians because it's quite possible that dolichocephalic man existed in North America well before the native Indians," she said. But even more controversial is the suggestion that Peñon woman could be a descendant of Stone Age Europeans who had crossed the ice-fringed Atlantic some 15,000 or 20,000 years ago.

This theory first surfaced when archaeologists found flint blades and spear points in America that bore a remarkable similarity to those fashioned by the Solutrean people of south-western France who lived about 20,000 years ago, when the ice age was at its most extreme. The Solutreans were the technologists of their day, inventing such things as the eyed needle and the heat treatment of flint to make it easier to flake into tools. They also built boats and fished.

http://www.utexas.ed.../1stpersons.htm
a human society that "predates" adam by years and that present problems for the jews and the rcc and protestanst all accept the lineage of the account of matthew.

so therefore humans killed and murdered before adam. thus if god said evo was good then he also created and ordain sin and was the author of it and something the rcc still in parts says cant be.


and this is still valid per the magisterium

Afraid. The just man is first to accuse himself: but Adam seeks for excuses in his sin: he throws the blame on his wife, and ultimately on God. M. --- Thou gavest me. Heretics have since treated the Sovereign Good with the like insolence; saying plainly, that God is the author of sin, and that the crime of Judas is no less his work than the conversion of S. Paul. See Calvin's works, and many of the first reformers, Luther, &c. cited. Ex. 8. 15. H.



http://www.veritasbi...ydock/Genesis_3


so the pope didnt think of what a can of worms his position is for the christian who buys this must then deny adam or the idea that sin didnt exist before the fall or say that god call sin good.

#11 Quaker Reason

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:04 PM

The Catholic Church, whatever crimes it has committed, still represents the single largest denomination of Christians on Earth.

The official position of the largest group of Christians in the world is that evolution and the Bible are compatible.

I don't care, in fact the Catholic Church should stay out of Science. They burned all of Galios writings and they ruined the Middle Ages. They forbid anyone from disagreeing, and when John Wycliffe came he proved they had been lying to us. So the Catholic Church should have no position trying to mandate things like this. The RCC never had any intention on telling the truth, we were going to live our lives doing works but the Bible says "Faith without works is dead." and God also talked about the workers "They'll come to me saying oh Lord did I not cast out demons, etc and I will spew you out of my mouth" (not exact)

Interesting enough, the scripture you posted was a part of my pastors teaching tonight. He said "A lot of people try and bend and warp scripture to meet their own needs" when I shown him your 'argument' he laughed and said "Yeah I thought it was pretty obvious that two cows made a calf."

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:34 PM

The passage I posted IS.

And the Pope disagrees with you.


Like the Pope dictates truth :gigglesmile: . You only agree with him when he agrees with you.

#13 JayShel

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:30 PM

now then if the mods would like to allow i will show how that this is a trend of bad things in the rcc. so why would i believe a church that does this? see that prayer to mary for removal of sins. in now book of the bible does any saint on the earth have the power to forgive sins like jesus does. we may forgive others as they offend us but not for sins that werent done to us. we cant grant absolution.


Remember the spiritual gifts? http://mintools.com/gifts-list.htm All spiritual gifts are given by God. I am just afraid that the saints have been exhalted too highly by the Catholic church, which can lead to idolatry.



I like this part of the OP article:

Evolutionary biologists assume methodological naturalism. This is the idea that only natural causes and processes are allowed to account for the complex, information-rich structures of living organisms. So even if God exists we would have a God who has nothing to do with origins, the development of life. Instead, undirected natural causes explain the origin and development of life. So, for all practical purposes you assume the position of a philosophical naturalist or a scientific atheist if you're going to hang your hat on the notion of "undirected natural processes."



#14 Ron

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:09 AM


The passage I posted IS. And the Pope disagrees with you.



It doesn't matter what the Pope thinks on the subject for many reasons. And further, since you brought the pope up, YOU are responsible to provide WHY the Pope’s opinion has any merit on the subject, to anyone other than Catholics. AND, while we’re talking about it, since you think the Pope has authority, you also need to also provide Biblical substantiation for the Popes authority over Christians at all. You really should learn to listen, figure out where you are wrong, and learn from that experience.


The Catholic Church, whatever crimes it has committed, still represents the single largest denomination of Christians on Earth. The official position of the largest group of Christians in the world is that evolution and the Bible are compatible.



This is nothing more than the fallacious use of the “Argumentum ad Populum” morass (i.e. “might maks right”) which fails miserably the vast majority of the time (see the Dredd vs Scott decision for example). Further, since you have decided to employ so silly a notion as “since so-and-so, believes such-and-such” it is incumbent upon YOU to provide:

Why their position has merit

What the evidence is that give it merit
What the factual evidence is that supports said evidence

You cannot simply say “All these people believe it, therefore it MUST be true! Such silly argumentation is easily pulled apart and exposed.


#15 AFJ

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:15 AM

Genesis 1:24


And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.”



Evolution agrees with this.


Legion,
Hello. If you exegete the scripture you see that "the land" produces each "kind." One "kind" (baramin) did not come from another kind, which is what evolution says happened.

Genesis 1:24 is in harmony with the creation of both the man and the woman, in that God took pre-exising material, and created. With Adam he took "dust," which is is line with what we know--we contain the elements of the earth in our bodies. The woman he created from biological material in Adam--a rib.

The creation of woman especially shows that there was no great passage of time, as she was created during Adam's "nap."

The creation of Adam was from the dust--he was not procreated by an earthly father--which is what evolution says would have happened.



And the Pope disagrees with you.

The word of a man does not usurp the Word of God. Past popes were creationists before evolution came along. I thought they were supposed to be infallable, Do you think God is going to use an atheist to reveal truth to the alleged "vicor of God?"

#16 MarkForbes

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:12 AM

It doesn't matter what the Pope thinks on the subject for many reasons....


I agree, and I don't see how it is relevant for the thread anyway. I also agree that there are many bad things in the RCC, but lots of the things they are accused of aren't true either, such as in the case of Galileo. That wasn't initiated by them, but by a fellow academic - who supported the paradigm of the day. In fact Galileo research and taught many years with the full knowledge of the RCC and wasn't bothered by them.

#17 falcone

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 08:16 AM

@Legion22...

Many on this forum will have no truck with the notion that acceptance of evolution is in any way compatible with being a Christian. Catholics, who despite claiming to be Christian, are not accepted as such and viewed little differently from any other group with opposing beliefs.

I understand why you did it, but referencing the position of what you or I may think of as other "Christian" groups is irrelevant.

#18 jason777

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 10:48 AM

@Legion22...

Many on this forum will have no truck with the notion that acceptance of evolution is in any way compatible with being a Christian. Catholics, who despite claiming to be Christian, are not accepted as such and viewed little differently from any other group with opposing beliefs.

I understand why you did it, but referencing the position of what you or I may think of as other "Christian" groups is irrelevant.



Yes. Comparing different religious denominations with us is akin to comparing gradualism with punctuated equilibrium or Lamarckism to Darwinism. Although they may believe in God and even preach Christ, they do not accept all of his word - just what they believe about it through other viewpoints. In other words, bible compromisers. It makes no sense to preach Christ without also accepting Christs' beliefs (i.e. Noah, Adam, etc.).



Enjoy.

#19 Quaker Reason

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:50 PM

I agree, and I don't see how it is relevant for the thread anyway. I also agree that there are many bad things in the RCC, but lots of the things they are accused of aren't true either, such as in the case of Galileo. That wasn't initiated by them, but by a fellow academic - who supported the paradigm of the day. In fact Galileo research and taught many years with the full knowledge of the RCC and wasn't bothered by them.

If memory serves it was the Pope who brought Galileo to trial at the Roman Inquisition, and yes some of his research did go on. But this was only from authorization of the Roman Catholic Church, so you can bet any ideas against Aristotle were censored.

#20 AFJ

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:37 AM

@Legion22...

Many on this forum will have no truck with the notion that acceptance of evolution is in any way compatible with being a Christian. Catholics, who despite claiming to be Christian, are not accepted as such and viewed little differently from any other group with opposing beliefs.

I understand why you did it, but referencing the position of what you or I may think of as other "Christian" groups is irrelevant.

I woudn't say that Roman Catholics aren't Christians. They believe the gospel, but there are extra-Biblical doctrines that were added after the apostles died. The big one for me is Mariology. None of the apostles taught or showed any hint of believing that Mary was born without sin. Jesus was the only one the scripture teaches was born by a seed from the Holy Spirit--untainted by Adam's sinful nature.

Also some catholics pray to "saints," and Mary. Why should you pray to other intercessors, when the entire book of Hebrews explains the intercessory High Preisthood of Jesus Christ for all his people. Mary and St. Augustine were good people, but they are not to be prayed to.

Only God knows the hearts of all, and he will judge according to where our heart is. But if we know these things to be error, we should adjust and follow apostolic teaching , rather than man's.




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