What would you think of a person who went to a college that was Christian and got the same degrees you have but was taught creation instead?
Would you deem them as educated as yourself or maybe educated with false assumptions and lies?
There are geologists who have degrees equal to or surpassing mine who are YECs. We hold different opinions about some of the same topics, but we do have a starting place in terms of knowledge of the subject. Too many others on opposite sides of the issue simply rely upon the opinions of others and what they have written rather blindly without thinking for themselves.
So when we see someone as educated as you by a college that is secular and will make all the evidence comform to that secular view we don;t look at it as really knowing anything.
I was first taught the YEC version of things in church meetings. It was later when taking science courses that I started to look at the actual evidence involved, and my study led me to believe that what I was seeing through my objective study of the evidence was an old earth. I came here to see if any ideas were being set forth that could convince me to the contrary, but did not find anything that holds up under scrutiny.
All the degrees in the world won;t help you get to Heaven when you use them to claim or imply that God and His word are a lie. But then again maybe that's not your goal. Because if it was I don;t think you would be doing what you are doing and saying what you are saying. And do you think those degrees are going to matter to God on judgment day? Do you think they make you smarter than God to where you can correct His word and correct him on judgment day? I think you do. You have illustrated, implied that everything science says supercedes God.
I agree that degrees will not get one into heaven. I do not imply that God and His word are a lie. That is just your opinion since I do not hold to the same literalist interpretation of the Bible that you do when it comes to Genesis. Science does not supersede God. In one way at looking at things God is the greatest scientist imaginable. He has a complete knowledge of science whereas man has simply scratched the surface of such understanding.
Do you believe science supercedes God? If you say no then why not list the things concerning science that you would deem God more knowledgable on? You cannot because what you believe makes God weak and stupid just so you can look smarter along with your peers. You will never get that the reason we don;t get along is not because I am YEC. It's because when it comes to things concerning God, you will take the atheist side more than 90% of the time. And when it comes to making a choice on what you will defend, God or His word is not where near first on that list. You put science and evolution above God and His Word. Do you really think God is going to forget how many times you have dome this? How many times you have taken and made the new in Christ question their faith or even turn away from it because you imply that God cannot do what he claimed He did?
I do not think God is superseded by science. It is more that God uses science due to His understanding of it. God created the universe and life, but I feel that he did so using his profound knowledge of scientific laws which he worked within to accomplish creation.
How you going to feel when you get to Heaven and find out that your copromise of God's word on several levels has actually put some people in Hell? You know that evolution has the ability to make the Christian question their faith so you also know what can happen when someone starts to question their faith. But do you care? No because you attempt that everyday here.
I do not feel that anything I have done will lead anyone to hell. In my experience the Christians I have seen question their faith came to do so because of conflicts they had between reconciling their religious teaching and their objective approach to science. They were from fundamentalist traditions that equated acceptance of evolution and an old earth with damnation. But Christ did not teach this. I work with many scientists who accept science as I do, but are still faithful Christians. They did not feel forced into a B&W choice that came from absolute insistence upon one literal interpretation of Genesis.
So you know someone can be made to turn away from God through evolution, right? So what makes what you do any different from them when you promote the same exact thing?
People can turn from God for many reasons. I do not promote evolution, which should be evident to anyone who has read many of my posts.
I mainly post in defense of proper geology. But evolution is not the thing that turns people away from God in most instances I have seen, it is how the subject is approached and whether or not the approach is honest.
You know how I know how evolution is so dangerous? On other forums I watch Christians turn away from God. Many of them first choose TE before atheism. And what TE did was confirmed in their minds that their is no God which makes TE just a stepping stone to atheism. But do you care? I doubt it. Because if you did you would not be a TE because you would notice the danger just from observation. But let's be frank, you see it and don;t care because you are a part of it.
I care very much when people turn away from God. I have had discussions with a couple of friends that I think stopped them from doing so. I think those who turn from God because of reasons involving science do so more because they have been part of a fundamentalist tradition that equates being a YEC with being a true Christian. They were told to reject evolution and an old earth or they would be damned. But Christ and His apostles did not teach this. With study some come to see that the evidence is in support of an old earth and evolution and this comes in conflict with what they have been taught by religious leaders. Given an unnecessary B&W (“do or die”) choice about a subject that has no real bearing on their salvation, they reject what must be accepted by faith. I think they have been dealt a disservice in being told they had to make a choice like this one. I recently saw a paper by a Christian geologist rejecting evolution outright, but apparently he held to at least some aspects of an older earth. He asked why Christians should be known as people who refused to believe in well-known realities concerning God’s created world, and why they should not instead rejoice that God has allowed us to have the benefit of understanding so many aspects of His creation? I see God’s hand in all that I see in nature, as I wrote in one of my earliest posts at the forum.
But it really cuts deeply to say that I do not care. Has your hatred of evolution become more important than following Christ? That is basically the flip side of what you are stating about me in a few places. I don’t think this to be the case, as from your posts I think you are sincere in your faith in Christ. But so am I. Outside of science I have found that I often agree very closely with what you post in terms of theology. I am also sincere in my faith in Christ.
Will any YECs be held accountable by God for forcing an issue to the point where people reject Christ who would not have done so if they didn’t over-emphasize something that is not core to one’s attaining salvation?
Now you can get mad all you like. But I have Fred's backing in this because he see's the same thing I do about you along with everyone else at this forum. You have slipped over to the atheist side so much so that you now debate just like one. You use their predictable responses. The only thing is you have not admitted it to yourself. Basically you are an atheist in denial. How many more steps do you think it would take from your current position to just be on the other side?
I have never made an atheistic post. I agree with many atheists about some aspects of science, but in this regard also with most people who call themselves Christians. I am not saying that numbers make one position more correct than another, but holding to an old earth and evolution is not something that only an atheist does. I am not an atheist. I am not in denial. I am what I have claimed to be. I have been a TE for about 45 years and not rejected Christ. I do not think I am in much danger of turning away now. I have seen the fear in some YECs that to accept anything contrary to the core of that belief is stepping towards atheism. Yes, I saw my best friend do that when he decided that the YEC view of science was incorrect. This was not because of anything I said to him, as he rejected God during a period that we were out of contact. He felt he had been lied to about science.
In recent days my posts have probably seemed more secular. I have posted more just on science and not about religion. You are directly responsible for that. In one thread you repeatedly changed the subject from the OP to question theistic evolution. As I posted I was tired of posting on that subject after three of four replies, since it was off-topic and I perceived that there was no point in continuing as I had already said my peace about it there.
One? That what I see,
1) You already believe their main secular idea.
2) You have already used that idea several times her to imply that God and His word lies.
3) You will defend them and take their side on every issue.
4) And I doubt you couls name even one area of science that you would say God superceded because you believe science supercedes God.
5) You use their arguments against God's word on creation. you also use it against the Christian faith.
So from that stand point what exactly is it that God is supposed to reconize you as being saved? And that is why we now see you as an atheist because we cannot tell you apart from them.
1) No, the main “secular” idea that atheists hold to is a non-belief in any god.
2) I have never stated or implied that God has lied. That is a strawman argument imposing your beliefs in literalism as reality and my beliefs. If I accepted your interpretation of Genesis and posted as I do you would have a point, but I do not agree with your interpretation.
3) No, I do not defend atheists on every issue. I disagree with them about the existence of God which is their main point. You will not be able to find a post where I have agreed with atheists for atheism sake. Most atheists accept evolution and the evidence for an old earth, but so do most professed Christians. I have not posted in favor of abortion and other secular issues.
4) Once again, I think science does not supersede God. It is more like science is part of God.
5) This is just what I already was talking about. You apparently equate the issue of rejection of an old earth and evolution with being a Christian. I do not. But this is the crux of your post. The board has been setup with identifiers and “theistic evolutionist” is one of them. You have basically defined that position as being against God and the Christian faith. It has appeared to me at times that people holding to a TE belief are given less respect here than any other group and I think your post basically verifies that this is probably the case. You think we are wrong, dangerous, and threatening the Christian faith. Yet we are part of the Christian faith and have faith in Christ. If the TE "worldview" is unacceptable since it seems it must be wrapped up with "religious affiliation" and the selection "Christian" and "Theistic Evolution" is deemed to be incompatible, I think it is hypocritical to maintain such as a choice at this forum. This option should be removed and all of us who hold to TE position should be banned. Then your apparent wish to only allow conversations between “true” Christians (YEC only), atheists, and members of “non-Christian cults” such as the JWs and Mormons can be accomplished.
But as I already posted, having faith in Christ is far more important than differences of opinion about science.