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#1 Quaker Reason

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 06:53 PM

Why is God seemingly "mean" in the Old Testament and why is he really nice in the New Testament?

#2 jason

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 07:09 PM

hes not read revalation and what jesus said on the judgment that could come if the churches didnt repent. and read psalms please. god had to judge those nations around isreal as they:

killed babies in fire
worshipped their gods by that act
performed all manner of S@xual acts that he forbid
abortions were attempted and done too.

so why wouldnt god judge them?

#3 Without_Excuse

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 08:42 PM

Well what your experiencing in the old testament is real time punishment from God, we are no longer under the law of Moses. We are now under the law of grace, which would explain why he "seems" nice now. It's just that he isn't judging people for their actions in the now, but by grace allowing us as Christians to try and save people before the final, and worse judgment comes.

#4 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 08:47 PM

God had to teach us somehow. Without the OT, would we understand God's power? Would we have a baring on good and bad? The OT was all about teaching us. The law is a tutor leading to Christ.

We would not even believe in a final judgment at all if we did not have the history of the OT. God has never judged people before... God hasn't shown His power before... etc.

I see a purpose to all of human history; a purpose of learning from it.

#5 jason

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:49 AM

and noah found grace in the eyes of god. uhm Noah isnt a jew nor isrealite. but a righteous gentile and yes grace did occur then but GOD used examples to warn us that is true but grace was given.

#6 Stripe

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:18 PM

Why is God seemingly "mean" in the Old Testament and why is he really nice in the New Testament?

Don't worry. The worst is yet to come. :)

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:42 PM

In the old testament, when people die, they did not go to heaven or hell. They did what the Bible terms as: slept with his fathers.

1kings 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

1kings 11:21 And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country.

1kings 11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1kings 14:20 And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1kings 14:31 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

1kings 15:8 And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

1kings 15:24 And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead.

1kings 16:6 So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah: and Elah his son reigned in his stead.

1kings 16:28 So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria: and Ahab his son reigned in his stead.

1kings 22:40 So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

1kings 22:50 And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 8:24 And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 10:35 And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria. And Jehoahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 13:9 And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria: and Joash his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 13:13 And Joash slept with his fathers; and Jeroboam sat upon his throne: and Joash was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel.

2kings 14:16 And Jehoash slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 14:22 He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers.

2kings 14:29 And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel; and Zachariah his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 15:7 So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 15:22 And Menahem slept with his fathers; and Pekahiah his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 15:38 And Jotham slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 16:20 And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 20:21 And Hezekiah slept with his fathers: and Manasseh his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 21:18 And Manasseh slept with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.

2kings 24:6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.

2chron 9:31 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

2chron 12:16 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David: and Abijah his son reigned in his stead.

2chron 14:1 So Abijah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. In his days the land was quiet ten years.

2chron 16:13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.

2chron 21:1 Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2chron 26:2 He built Eloth, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers.

2chron 26:23 So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which belonged to the kings; for they said, He is a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

2chron 27:9 And Jotham slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2chron 28:27 And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city, even in Jerusalem: but they brought him not into the sepulchres of the kings of Israel: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.

2chron 32:33 And Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the chiefest of the sepulchres of the sons of David: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did him honor at his death. And Manasseh his son reigned in his stead.

2chron 33:20 So Manasseh slept with his fathers, and they buried him in his own house: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.



This condition after death was eliminated by what Christ did on the cross. You won't find that term used anywhere in the new testament. This is also why Jesus told the parable of the rich man poor man. This was to show that each person would now go directly to where they should after death. Why is all this important? Because the people were not judged after death they were judged for their sins before death.

This is also more comfirmed when Christ rose from the dead and many of the saints rose from their graves also.
mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

If people went to Heaven or Hell after they died in the OT, do you think they came back just so they could rise from their graves? Nope. Also notice that the word used is "many" and not "all" the saints rose. What this means is the ressurection of the dead was also a judgment. Many of the saints rose because not all were worthy under OT covenant.

What happens to the ones who were left behind?
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The only people left on this earth that can be considered "dead in Christ" are the ones that died in the OT and are still in their graves. Because under the new covenant no one is left in the graves when they die.

So basically the OT covenant is judgment for sins before death. Which is why there was so much violence.
And the NT covenant is judgment after death which took that away.

#8 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 07:56 PM

The dead in Christ - away from the body at home with the Lord

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:8).

The dead in Christ are in heaven with Christ until the resurrection.

As we read in these passages, Jesus connects the resurrection with the end of the age as He says, “I will raise him up at the last day.” This mention of the last day is a reference to the “Day of the Lord” which is when Christ returns.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:39-40).

We are told that at the resurrection of the dead those alive at that time will also be changed or resurrected in the rapture:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead (Philippians 3:10-11).
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body (Philippians 3:20-21).

Paul provided this detailed description of the resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the living. While this passage is very descriptive, notice that it provides no indication of when the rapture will occur, Pre, Mid or Post:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. The dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them and so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Quoted from: http://www.lastdaysm...of_the_dead.htm And all is basically my understanding and also that of Baptist World Cult Evangelism and my KJV study Bible.

#9 jason

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:16 PM

lovely. mama im not a pre-tribber. my view of the final judgment of man and the rapture are near simulateoneous the church will be taken out and the left behind will be damned as they die in fiery judgement.

i will look into sheol and post what it means, what i recall sheol has the connonation of the dead being aware of where they are at.

#10 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:41 PM

I am so lacking in any knowlege of theology that I don't even know what pre-tribber means, Jason, but it seems you are in agreement with the parts I quoted.

The rest doesn't matter that much to me really. (If you are speaking of prophecy fulfillment and the timing of things) God is faithful, His justice is perfect and Jesus will save us! I don't need to argue over details.

Luke 12:42-48 Notice that there are not only 2 groups of people here, but 4. That third world mother does not fit into the same group as the evil slave. Also, if you read about the bowls of wrath being poured out in Revelation, there are repeated chances to repent.

As for the OT saints... It does seem that unlike us, their spirits did not have the hope of being with the Lord upon death, and Job did speak about wishing to go to Sheol until he would see his Savior. Details though, I am blurry on.

#11 jason

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:55 PM

actually no, moses said blot me out of thy book that thou has written in the book of exodus.

did they have a full revalation of it? no and do we ? NO. we like to think we do.

they did have an idea of a paradise for the dead and that abrahams bosom is it and also jesus said that the pharisees and saduceess err on the dead. its im the God of isaac etc. they werent dead to him so they had to be somewhere.

#12 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 08:59 PM

Related Scripture, not addressed to debate anyone in particular: Romans 3:25-26: This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

#13 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 09:01 PM

Is anyone in hell? I doesn't seem so. The final judgment has not occurred yet... after this is when the wicked are hurled into the lake of fire.

they did have an idea of a paradise for the dead and that abrahams bosom is it and also jesus said that the pharisees and saduceess err on the dead. its im the God of isaac etc. they werent dead to him so they had to be somewhere.

Right, is this what sheol is? And are some faithful still there and is this the same thing that occurs when Christians die today?

#14 Without_Excuse

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:57 PM

lovely. mama im not a pre-tribber. my view of the final judgment of man and the rapture are near simulateoneous the church will be taken out and the left behind will be damned as they die in fiery judgement.

i will look into sheol and post what it means, what i recall sheol has the connonation of the dead being aware of where they are at.


I assume by saying you are *not* a pre-tribber means you believe in the rapture after the tribulation? Interesting, care to explain why?

#15 ikester7579

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 04:43 AM

This subject of pre-trib will derail this thread I will start another one.

#16 jason

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 04:44 AM

no i dont believe in any seven future trib. nor the ac as taught in general. im closest to a preterist. in order for their to be an abonomation of desolation we must then conclude that temple in isreal becomes holy to god and the blood of the lamb shed for us was retracted. thus, a total different gospel.

#17 jason

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 04:51 AM

sheol:

http://sheol-know.org/

its a good start and i dont agree with all of it.

#18 ikester7579

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:59 AM

Is anyone in hell? I doesn't seem so. The final judgment has not occurred yet... after this is when the wicked are hurled into the lake of fire.
Right, is this what sheol is? And are some faithful still there and is this the same thing that occurs when Christians die today?


The parable of the rich man poor man would disagree. When both went to where they were going Jesus did not mention a judgment then they went. They died then they went. Also in the Great White Throne Judgment of Father God, people are actually pulled from hell and then judged, then thrown into the lake of fire.

rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hell is not eternal, the Lake of Fire is. And how could anyone be pulled out of Hell to be judged unless they were already there?

#19 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:18 AM

Thanks Ikester.

The parable of the rich man poor man would disagree. When both went to where they were going Jesus did not mention a judgment then they went. They died then they went.

Hmmm.. I will ask my husband about this.

The parable of the rich man poor man would disagree. When both went to where they were going Jesus did not mention a judgment then they went. They died then they went. Also in the Great White Throne Judgment of Father God, people are actually pulled from hell and then judged, then thrown into the lake of fire.

rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hell is not eternal, the Lake of Fire is. And how could anyone be pulled out of Hell to be judged unless they were already there?

Because the word for hell here is Hell= Hades= Sheol and we have already seen (looking at Jasons link) that Sheol/Hades is a place righteous people fully expected to go, and our God did not intend to send the righteous to a place of judgment (according to the letters of Romans and Hebrews).

#20 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:26 AM

This subject of pre-trib will derail this thread I will start another one.

Thanks! My husband will want to read that one.




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