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Fibonacci Numbers - The Fingerprint Of God


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#41 ikester7579

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 06:00 AM

Hi I have been following this forum on and off for awhile now and I really enjoy the substantive debate. I was doing a little research on these fibonacci numbers and I think this is arguably the most amazing phenomenon there is. I have heard some evolutionists say that fibonacci numbers are advantagous to evolution because they are so "efficient." For example, the leaves of a plant may create a spiral design to maximize exposure to sunlight for photosynthesis. I was wondering what my fellow creationists thought of this explanation? Also, how would evolutionists explain the appearance of the golden ratio/fibonacci numbers in the solar system and other non-living matter?


Here's the problem with that. How would any plant know how to do any design unless intelligence was involved?

Example (I'm not making fun of anyone when I use this example): Let's use 2 different people. Let's say one person is really smart. The other person has a mental problem that does not allow them to learn anything. Now which one do you think would be able to to do the Fibonacci numbers? the smart one, right? But which one would represent the intelligence of a plant and not be able to do the numbers? Get the picture?

You see evolutionists constantly try to use intelligence in evolution and then try to make it sound like intelligence was not involved. The plant or a supposed mechanism for evolution does not have the ability to make designs that have anything to do with math. Zero intelligence = no design and no math. Just like the person in the example who has a mental problem and cannot learn nor do anything beyond a simple gesture. He's not going to be able to do it, the plant is not going to be able to do it, evolution processes or mechanisms are not going to be able to do it. Which by the way leaves only one possibility whether anyone likes it or not.

Deductive logic states that once you eliminate everything that will not work, whatever is left, no matter how impossible, must be the answer. And when you apply that logic to every design that takes intelligence to produce then you see God all around you.

#42 Quaker Reason

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:35 AM

Funny thing is I had JUST TALKED to a guy the other day who was explaining this to me.

#43 Aaron

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 01:22 PM

Here's the problem with that. How would any plant know how to do any design unless intelligence was involved?

Example (I'm not making fun of anyone when I use this example): Let's use 2 different people. Let's say one person is really smart. The other person has a mental problem that does not allow them to learn anything. Now which one do you think would be able to to do the Fibonacci numbers? the smart one, right? But which one would represent the intelligence of a plant and not be able to do the numbers? Get the picture?

You see evolutionists constantly try to use intelligence in evolution and then try to make it sound like intelligence was not involved. The plant or a supposed mechanism for evolution does not have the ability to make designs that have anything to do with math. Zero intelligence = no design and no math. Just like the person in the example who has a mental problem and cannot learn nor do anything beyond a simple gesture. He's not going to be able to do it, the plant is not going to be able to do it, evolution processes or mechanisms are not going to be able to do it. Which by the way leaves only one possibility whether anyone likes it or not.

Deductive logic states that once you eliminate everything that will not work, whatever is left, no matter how impossible, must be the answer. And when you apply that logic to every design that takes intelligence to produce then you see God all around you.


I think what they are trying to say is that a mutation caused a leaf to grow in a different area which would be more efficient for photosynthesis and that naturally all the leaves would form the "golden spiral" because that happens to be the most efficient way to grow which would get selected by natural selection and therefore increase the chances of survival. Do you see the difference between this and your example? Its not about foreknowledge. It supposedly happens the same way everything else evolved. Of course, I don't believe evolution is even possible to begin with but I thought this was an interesting answer to the fibonacci numbers. I think this is highly unlikely in most other cases. For example, the human body has golden ratios all over it that are not important to survival. Also, all the golden ratios in the movement of the planets need to be addressed as well.
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#44 Aaron

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 01:25 PM

Funny thing is I had JUST TALKED to a guy the other day who was explaining this to me.


Well that makes two coincidences. I said I've been following this forum on and off for awhile and I finally decided to make a thread about these fibonacci numbers, which I recently discovered, and amazingly there was already a thread about it that had just been recently made. Small world.

#45 Jesse

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:44 AM

What do evolutionist think about this? It just happened by "chance" like everything else?

#46 gilbo12345

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:58 AM

What do evolutionist think about this? It just happened by "chance" like everything else?


Either chance or "evolution did it" or infer a Lamarck-based method, (like Dawkins did for the bombardier beetle)

#47 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:36 AM

I think what they are trying to say is that a mutation caused a leaf to grow in a different area which would be more efficient for photosynthesis and that naturally all the leaves would form the "golden spiral" because that happens to be the most efficient way to grow which would get selected by natural selection and therefore increase the chances of survival. Do you see the difference between this and your example? Its not about foreknowledge. It supposedly happens the same way everything else evolved. Of course, I don't believe evolution is even possible to begin with but I thought this was an interesting answer to the fibonacci numbers. I think this is highly unlikely in most other cases. For example, the human body has golden ratios all over it that are not important to survival. Also, all the golden ratios in the movement of the planets need to be addressed as well.


Excellent points. I finally watched this video and am blown away by it. The implications for intelligent design are undeniable, at least undeniable by a rationally thinking person.

#48 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:43 PM

I went on the web to research some of this and here are some more videos on it, But you have to watch the first one posted to understand this one:



In my opinion, this video is even more powerful, more convincing than the original one posted (Fibonacci).

Why?

Pay close attention to 2:25 in. The golden ratio is in the Bible in numerous places as well. The same ratio that appears in nature is in the Bible, as commanded from God. Coincidence? NO. Conspiracy? Only if one believes the Jews, thousands of years ago, were somehow able to study nature as SCIENCE is able to TODAY, then fabricated a God who in turn stated this golden ratio to the Jews, only to create the illusion of God thousands of years later.

The Jews could not have assessed the Golden Ratio with the tools they had back then, finding the ratio in flowers, plants, insects, planets, and galaxies! No way. So there is also no way it's by coincidence that God tells the Jews to fashion the Ark (and other things) using this Golden Ratio.

Which leads me to once again validating my assessment of atheists, one that has not been proven wrong yet. I use the following signature on another website, and this is has always proven true when it comes to unbelievers reacting to the intersection of science (their god) and faith:


The Atheist Paradox: "I believe in science EXCEPT where science and faith intersect, complementing each other. At that point I will deny that the science is correct as well as insist that the faith is still wrong."
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