Like I said, its possible, but does not appeal to my sense of logic. It seems too many events are being compressed into one year. Its because of what is contained in those layers that makes the the odds seem near impossible to me.
That's understandable, but in another sense, it is a judgement. Look at how many things are going on in Revelations. You have impacts and all kinds of things, but I do believe that will be seven years long.
Yes. I believe these transgressions occurred before, during and after the flood, you believe it all occurred during the flood, so your point here supports both of our positions.
Okay, thanks for clarifying.
Yes but if they are on top of one another this seems impossible.
Agreed, maybe not impossible, but challenging. When you have time, I'd still like to know how they've come to those conclusions about the atmosphere and stuff.
Another thing that I haven't brought up is that, we're both speaking about the geologic column as if there really is strata somewhere that is 100 miles high, containing the entire column. I believe it would make more sense to look at each individual locality."Because we cannot find sedimentary rocks representing all of earth time neatly in one convenient area, we must piece together the rock sequence from locality to locality. This process of tying one rock sequence in one place to another in some other place is known as correlation ... "
- Leet and Judson, Physical Geology
, p.181."The end product of correlation is a mental abstraction called the geologic column."
- "Geochronology," Encyclopedia Britannica
, p.779, (1985)."We define stratigraphic disorder as the departure from perfect chronological order of fossils in a stratigraphic sequence. Any sequence in which an older fossil occurs above a younger one [or vice versa] is stratigraphically disordered. Scales of stratigraphic disorder may be from millimeters to many meters."
- Cutler, Alan H., and Karl W. Plessa, "Fossils out of Sequence: Computer Simulations and Strategies for Dealing with Stratigraphic Disorder," Palaios
, vol. 5, p. 227, (1990)."One of the ironies of the evolution-creation debate is that the creationists have accepted the mistaken notion that the fossil record shows a detailed and orderly progression and they have gone to great lengths to accommodate this 'fact' in their Flood geology."
- Raup, David M. (University of Chicago, Ph.D. in Paleontology), "Evolution and the Fossil Record," Science
, vol. 213, p. 289, (July 17, 1981)." ... any topsy-turvy sequence of fossils would force us to rethink our theory ... "
- Steven M. Stanley (John Hopkins University), The New Evolutionary Timetable
, p.171, (1981).
Living fossils would be topsy-turvy fossils, as well as some of the human fossils found in deeper strata that I listed on page one, but I'm sure you don't doubt that things like this exist. I'm just pointing out that we should think critically when viewing the strata and not think that what happened here also means that it had to happen in the same way on the other side of the world.
From what I've read, southern Turkey is the only place in the world with all of the geological periods represented by index fossils, but even this location has only half of the 34 types of index fossils.
True, like I said I believe in a flood, however compressed into the P-T extinction event.
What would you say about those marine and land fossils jumbled together that are not in the P-T extinction event?
I haven't got time to do research at the moment , will look into this and give you your evidence.
Okay, thank you.
To put the fossils in "creationist flood model" terms, after the the worldwide signs of most amphibian fossils, there is a worldwide layer of the most proliferate ash and basalt deposits that occurred in the middle of the flood, then there are worldwide signs of Dicynodont and Cynodont fossils during the flood. These are reptilian fossils more suited to a dry environment, but somehow these dryer land animals survived the initial stages of the flood and the volcanic activity in the middle of the flood, and then died towards the end of the flood.
The thing is, how can you be sure this is all worldwide? These different layers could have been correlated into the mental abstraction that is the geologic column. Since they find the amphibians over here and then over there, they say that this is the same time period.
If you believe that life evolved from chemicals to fish to reptiles to humans and birds, you will correlate the layers with those specific fossils in them according to that point of view. I'm somewhat oversimplifying, but that would be a general picture of what's happening.
I believe they did survive to proliferate about 600-1000 years later. But the large pre-flood amphibians died straight away because they were suited to moist environments, and the post-flood environment was dry. I don't believe God would have projected extinctions and therefore said to Noah, "leave out the Dodo and the mega-amphibians and the mammoth, they are going to die anyway". The nature of God is more to give all an equal chance, and yet keep His interventions in this dying world to a minimum (obviously except when us Christians are involved). ie after the flood nature took its own course and the wetland animals largely died off nearly immediately.
I don't think God would've left any animals out, even though he knew some were going to become extinct."Of every clean beast you shall take with you seven by seven, the sire and his dam, and of the beast that is not clean, of them pairs, the sire and his dam. Also, of the clean flyer of the heavens seven by seven, male and female, and of the flyer that is not clean, of them pairs, male and female, to keep seed alive on the surface of the entire earth."
(Genesis 7:2-3)"Come forth from the ark, you and your wife, your sons and your sons' wives with you. Every wild animal that is with you, some of all flesh among the flyer and the domestic beast, also every creeper that is creeping on the earth, bring them forth with you, so they can swarm in the earth and be fruitful and increase on the earth."
Now, I'm not implying that extinctions aren't possible. It just seems like most, if not all, of the animals that came off of the ark survived for some time before things started to get rough for certain animals. Changing climates over time would've affected them, but before that, it seems like they were to "keep seed alive on the surface of the earth." I think they did that for the first, I don't know, thousand years or so before things started getting difficult. Which is why the dinosaur legends are more abundant the further back in time you go.
Also, I'm not sure if the mammoth was the elephant-kind on the ark. Its furry body seems to be an adaption to the ice age or something.
The bible does not mention the ice age either, are these pre-flood humans and mammoths found frozen across Siberia? They are obviously post-flood because the ice would have been under water during the flood. So there was this massive change of weather patterns that must have been amazing and destructive to live through, and yet the bible does not mention a thing.
I'm not so sure if the ice age would've been as catastrophic as an impact that wiped out most of the large animals and deprived them of oxygen. The ice age was also not global, but you do make a good point.
Some people have suggested that Job mentions the ice age:"From its chamber comes the sweeping whirlwind, And cold from the sifting winds. By the breath of El ice is made, And the broad waters become a frozen solid."
(Job 37:9-10)"From whose belly has the ice come forth? And the hoarfrost of the heavens, who has generated it, When water hides itself as stone, And the face of the abyss is frozen over?"
Job would have lived somewhere around the end of the ice age, according to Michael Oard's model, but I can't be sure that that's what these passages are referring to.
Very little is recorded in the Noah to Abraham period and the Abraham to Moses period. However societies and myths and entire religions across the world are very focussed on cometary events. Think about the fascination of various societies with the Pleiedes Stars, the visible source of cometary displays. Think about the Swastika, an ancient symbol of a comet. The snake symbol of the American Indians and the religion of the ancient Egyptians were all comet related as far as I know. I believe the Egyptians even used the conical shape of actual comets to top their pyramids and sometimes obelisks. The early civilisations were very comet-focussed.
I don't doubt that comets hit the earth. I'm just having trouble believing that there was one that wiped out most of the large animals.
I always thought that the obelisks were supposed to be a phalic symbol. Not that comets couldn't have also been involved in their design.
Besides this, there is widespread evidence of a comet impact, including a crater and extensive widespread iridium during the period of dinosaur extinctions.
I believe there were impacts during the flood and that would explain the cratering in the strata. Meteorites and craters are more frequent in the upper layers than in the lower layers. This is the opposite of what uniformitarian geology predicts (because it is assumed that there would have been much more space debris in the younger solar system).
I haven't read enough on the K-T (K-Pg) boundary yet, but some have said that iridium can also come from volcanoes. Keeping in mind what I said above, about the layers being correlated from different locations, this quote makes sense:"But if gradualism rules, why do geologists draw a line across their charts at 65 million years ago and talk about the 'Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary'? Pressed on this point from the audience, Professor E. R. Oxburgh, president of the BA's geology section, said that 'all such boundaries are arbitrary, and can be drawn anywhere you like'."
- "Sun sets on the Great Dinosaur Disaster," New Scientist
, Vol. 99, No. 1373, Weekly 80p, p.606, (September 1, 1983); http://books.google....epage&q&f=false
Many reject the impact theory."Ironically, as more scientists satisfy themselves that an impact did occur, other researchers have begun raising tough questions about whether that impact packed enough punch to make the dinosaurs disappear."
- Morel, Virginia, "How Lethal was the K-T Impact?," Science, Vol. 261, pp. 1518, (Sept. 17, 1993).
Robert Bakker, from the University of Colorado said:"It would send up a dust storm that would chill the earth. The dust would cause acid rain that would kill the frogs, turtles and fish right away. They are very sensitive to acid rain. Big animals [like dinosaurs] wouldn't be affected as much. So the theory of a meteorite hitting predicts just the wrong order."
- Robert Bakker, The Courier-Mail
, p. 3, (May 19, 1990).
Some just don't know apparently:"Thus, the dinosaurs could quickly make use of the available ecological and evolutionary opportunities. However, they all vanished from the earth in the global events at the end of the Cretaceous. The cause poses a difficult question for which no ready answer is apparent."
- Zi-Kui, Z., "Dinosaur eggs in China: on the structure and evolution of eggshells," Dinosaur Eggs and Babies
, p. 197, K. Carpenter, K.F. Hirsch and J.R. Horner (eds), (Cambridge University Press, London, 1994).
In creationist flood model terms this would mean that the flood first had amphibian fossils, then a volcanic ash layer , then small reptile fossils, and then large reptile fossils and then an iridium impact layer and then the mammals proliferate. All seems too far fetched for me, why do the amphibians drown first, and then the small reptiles, then the large reptiles, then the mammals? And why do small mammals die off during the large reptile drownings, and then small mammals also die off during the large mammal drownings? And why does the flood occur before the volcanic activity? And where does the ridium layer come from, was the comet/asteroid just an added extra just before the mammal drownings? I'm not expecting you to answer all these rhetorical questions, just giving you a sense of the myriad number of explanations that the current flood model requires.
I think my answers can be found in what I wrote above. These are all good questions and I'd like to continue having this discussion, because I want to know how the flood truly affected the earth. You make great points and I may be wrong, but I'm just wondering what you think of the things I pointed out above.
Could be genes related too, however it seems that during the 1700 pre-flood years there was no deteriation in life-spans, and then after the flood the life-spans deteriated quickly and seemed to have reached current levels about 500-1000 years later. I believe the flood-related destruction of all vegetation caused a deteriating atmosphere while the new vegetation was gaining a foothold. This vegetation reached a new equilibrium a few hundred years later but at growth levels way below the pre-flood vegetation. During this whole time oxygen levels were deteriating, possibly even air pressure, and so were life-spans.
Why do you believe the oxygen levels and air pressure were greater in the past? Is it just because of the long life-spans or something in the strata? I agree that the plants were a lot bigger in the past. You make a good point that the life-spans started to drop off after the flood, so it does seem like something in the environment changed.
Yes the waters returned, this just speaks to me of the flood waters receding, not fluctuating, the original wording seems better according to the Hebrew.
I don't know much about Hebrew, but I think the authors of that article make a good case. Some translators agree with what they said, because the Bible I have, used that wording before I read the article. In any case, you believe there were transgressions and regressions during the flood, so there's no point in debating the Hebrew.
If everything preP-T boundary is pre-flood, and everything above is post-flood, what would the subsidence and sedimentation rates have been like since the flood in order to accumulate the thick post-Permian sections we see throughout the world? And how does your model account for the distinctly post-Paleozoic marine sediments preserved in the North American continental interior and elsewhere while simultaneously addressing human habitation of the same areas?
I was also wondering this. It seems like there would have to be a lot of sedimentation going on before and after the flood, at rates we don't see today. Which is entirely possible. I believe there were some residual catastrophes after the flood, but I'd like to know how NewPath accounts for the extensive deposits before the P-T boundary.
(This is also an answer to gilbo)
From your link:
"Occasionally, a ring isn't grown during a year – called "locally absent" or "missing" for that year"
"Occasionally, more than one ring is grown during a year – called "false" for that year"
Those are anomalies, happens during unordinary years, and easily recognisible by professionals.
Also, as I understood from reading on subject, missing "rings" have almost the same probability as the "extra" rings.
Turns out, there is whole bunch of old threes, some ages are estimated tho (I guess they didn't want to kill a three to get better measurements), but some of them (table 1) when three age measired with one year precision.
Maybe because of environmental factors or other factors, trees grew faster in the past and produced rings faster than they do today? I really would like to read more about tree rings. I haven't really had the time, but if you'd like to read some more perspectives on the subject from people who believe the Bible, here you go:http://www.answersin...ristlecone-pinehttp://creationwiki....endrochronologyhttp://creationwiki....n_grow_per_yearhttp://creationwiki....than_4900_years