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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:57 AM

My sister has backslid for many years. And she's really strong headed on several things. Anyway she finds a preacher she likes on TV. One that does not ask for money because that's what makes her not want to watch. Anyway, I went to go see her at work to get my hair cut. And the subject came up and she said something I had never heard before. That Cain and Able did not have the same fathers. Able was the product of Adam and Cain was a product of Satan. Basically implying that Satan had s*x with Eve.

Having never heard that one before I did not know what to say. So I was wondering if anyone had ever heard that before and where does that belief come from?

#2 gilbo12345

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:58 AM

Was it meant in a literal sense or was it metaphorical?

Otherwise I have no idea, I'm no Biblical scholar, just a humble Biologist :)

#3 Ron

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:56 AM

Never heard of it before Ike. But, whenever I come across such things, I usually ask for scripture references from the person making the claim, then attempt to walk them through why their assertion is false...

#4 JayShel

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:32 PM

I agree with Ron. If you don't get it from scripture, then its just guessing, which doesn't make any sense.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 03:23 PM

She believes it in a literal sense. and she believes this through logic and reason and not it being actually said in scripture. Just that it was implied seems top be the thing.

Hmm I just did a search engine search on this while typing and this is what I found:


The most famous case of superfetation in humans is found in the Bible account of the conception and birth of Cain and Abel. Whoever reads Genesis carefully, will see it speaks of the two seeds, or offspring, right after the fall. So from the very beginning, there were two lineages: the ungodly line of Cain and the godly line found in Seth. Not one time is Adam called the father of Cain, who is not once mentioned in the genealogies of Adam. This is why Adam pronounced his wife "the mother of all living". Never is it suggested that Adam is the father of all living. If Cain actually would have been the first-born son of Adam, he would have had the nature of Adam who was the son of God, and a special place in God's record.
Abel was killed with no offspring, therefore the record of the genealogy goes through Seth. In this respect also, the Word of God is perfect and enlightening -- Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch. Jude identifies Enoch as the seventh from Adam: Cain is absent and was not mentioned in the genealogies in Genesis, Chronicles, Luke, or Jude.

http://www.biblebeli...au/bb940516.htm

Comments?

#6 chipwag64

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 04:08 PM

Sounds like the "Shepherd's Chapel" whose pastor is named Arnold Murray. I believe that he taught this. I used to watch him on T.V. and some of the stuff that he taught was quite strange, let alone unbiblical. I hope she is not following him.

#7 MamaElephant

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:12 PM

1 John 3: 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters,[b] if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

#8 MamaElephant

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:13 PM

If you find out what she is being taught you can likely find other things that are unscriptural.

#9 ikester7579

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:46 PM

Sounds like the "Shepherd's Chapel" whose pastor is named Arnold Murray. I believe that he taught this. I used to watch him on T.V. and some of the stuff that he taught was quite strange, let alone unbiblical. I hope she is not following him.


Yep, that's who it is.

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:59 PM

If you find out what she is being taught you can likely find other things that are unscriptural.


The thing is I first have to get her to listen. She's that strong headed on stuff she believes or thinks she knows. Just to tell you how bad it is. She was selling her van and mine had just basically bit the dust. I asked: Why are you selling it? She said the transmission is going out. Having been a mechanic I know the symptoms of a failing transmission. And she knows I fix cars because I fix her's several times. So I ask: What's it doing? She says: it has no power when I go to pass someone. I asked: Does the engine speed up but the van does not? she said: no it just won;t go. with the millage that was on the van and now knowing the trans was not slipping. There was one other possibility. and I told her what that was. She got all bent out of shape and said: I know what I'm talking about I have been driving cars for x number of years. So I said: Okay, how much you want for it? She said: 500 dollars.

I bought it and spent 20 bucks to fixed it. The catalytic converter was bad and clogged so I removed and it put a regular pipe in it's place, Ran perfect after that. She is now stuck with new car payments. Took her 2 years of making those payments before she realized her mistake and now wishes she had kept it.

That's what I am up against. So I will need prayer because she's not going to be happy finding out her pastor on TV is a false teacher. I will have to study up on him and what he preaches before I can approach her.

#11 Salsa

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:42 AM

The Bible warns us about listening to godless myths and old wives' tales, of which this has all the markings.

Satan was a fallen angel, so he would not have the ability to reproduce, and I doubt that he would be able to create anything new (such as a seed).

We know that he has the abiltity to incarnate, but who was available at that time apart from Adam? That leaves the animals, but what animal can produce human offspring?

It's a little too far-fetched to be taken seriously.

#12 gilbo12345

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:19 AM

We know that he has the abiltity to incarnate, but who was available at that time apart from Adam? That leaves the animals, but what animal can produce human offspring?


Any if you believe in evolution :P (sorry had to be said)


Good luck Ike

#13 JayShel

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:24 AM

"And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground." - Genesis 4:1-2 doesn't leave anything to question.

The Bible warns us about listening to godless myths and old wives' tales, of which this has all the markings.

Satan was a fallen angel, so he would not have the ability to reproduce, and I doubt that he would be able to create anything new (such as a seed).

We know that he has the abiltity to incarnate, but who was available at that time apart from Adam? That leaves the animals, but what animal can produce human offspring?

It's a little too far-fetched to be taken seriously.


Actually, some people think that Nephelim arose from fallen angels and humans:

"2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." -Genesis 6

The Hebrew word for giants means fallen one. Sons of God here seem to refer to the angels since they are distinguished from "daughters of men", and based on their actions they were the fallen angels of Satan. It's strange that many different cultures have legends of "demi-gods", half-men half-gods. That is one take on that part of scripture, but I find it really interesting.

My whole problem with this topic about him being a child of satan, is that the Bible often talks about children of God and children of satan, yet this does not mean that they biologically fathered them, it refers to their spiritual disposition.
http://www.bibletool...n-of-Satan-.htm

The phrase MamaElephant posted, he "belonged to the evil one" has no reference to paternity. I can sell myself into slavery and belong to someone else, but it doesn't make them my biological father.

#14 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:34 AM

Oh sorry. I should have put my verses into context. I do not agree with this teaching about Cain. My point was that in 1 John chapter 3 we don't assume that they are talking about a literal son (seed).

Yeah, that is pretty clear Paul. Thanks.

#15 JayShel

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:37 AM

Oh sorry. I should have put my verses into context. I do not agree with this teaching about Cain. My point was that in 1 John chapter 3 we don't assume that they are talking about a literal son (seed).

Yeah, that is pretty clear Paul. Thanks.


Yes, I just thought you were contributing to the verses that mention Cain, not necessarily saying that you agreed with the teaching.

#16 JayShel

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:42 AM

Having been a mechanic I know the symptoms of a failing transmission.
[...]
I bought it and spent 20 bucks to fixed it.

Wow it would be handy to have you around. My car is kind of a lemon. The damage to the body alone means it is totaled. There are cracks in the exhaust manifold, and I don't really have the ability to worry about that. Check engine light has been on for thousands of miles, but every time I go to get it checked they tell me it is something minor that would cost way to much to fix. My main goal is to keep it mechanically running until I pay it off, and potentially a bit longer. Every time I get into it and drive, I praise God it is still working. I want to get a bumper sticker that says "this car runs on the Holy Spirit".

#17 Salsa

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:07 AM

Actually, some people think that Nephelim arose from fallen angels and humans


Yeah I know, and I guess it could explain how the Nephelim reappeared after the flood (if that really was the case) because the "sons of God" would obviously not have been destroyed in the flood.

It also reminds me of a Christian science-fiction novel I once started to read that was built around the idea that the Nephilim would reappear in the last days, based on Jesus words "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man".

But still I think we have to be careful about speculating too much about these kinds of theories. Is it "sound doctrine" or something that just tickles our ears?

#18 JayShel

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:43 AM

Yeah I know, and I guess it could explain how the Nephelim reappeared after the flood (if that really was the case) because the "sons of God" would obviously not have been destroyed in the flood.

It also reminds me of a Christian science-fiction novel I once started to read that was built around the idea that the Nephilim would reappear in the last days, based on Jesus words "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man".

But still I think we have to be careful about speculating too much about these kinds of theories. Is it "sound doctrine" or something that just tickles our ears?


It's not something I tie salvation to, that's for sure, and I wouldn't rely on this as an argument to refute what she was saying about Cain. So many details just confirm that we don't know everything yet, and we won't until we meet Jesus face to face. There is no sound doctrine that I can think of that would be tied to this. Because of this, and because of my uncertainty, I don't take a hard stance on it, it is just fun to speculate and research occasionally.

#19 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:00 PM

My whole problem with this topic about him being a child of satan, is that the Bible often talks about children of God and children of satan, yet this does not mean that they biologically fathered them, it refers to their spiritual disposition.
http://www.bibletool...n-of-Satan-.htm

The phrase MamaElephant posted, he "belonged to the evil one" has no reference to paternity. I can sell myself into slavery and belong to someone else, but it doesn't make them my biological father.

Yes that was the point of my post. I prefer to let scripture and Holy Spirit speak instead of me speaking, but no one seems to know what I mean that way. :tissue:

Actually, some people think that Nephelim arose from fallen angels and humans:

"2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." -Genesis 6

The Hebrew word for giants means fallen one. Sons of God here seem to refer to the angels since they are distinguished from "daughters of men", and based on their actions they were the fallen angels of Satan. It's strange that many different cultures have legends of "demi-gods", half-men half-gods. That is one take on that part of scripture, but I find it really interesting.


Wow, I never paid attention to that. I assumed that the Bible actually said that angels took wives and had children.

#20 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:02 PM

"And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground." - Genesis 4:1-2 doesn't leave anything to question.

How this verse doesn't completely clear it up I don't know. It seems straightforward to me. :dono:




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