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#41 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:40 PM

So if it continues like this where everything I say basically gets ignore for everything you say then as far as I'm concerned the debate is over. Either start addressing the verses I post directly or you won;t have a debate opponent. And the next time I bow out I will close the thread.

And by the way would you care to address the verses I posted as well?

So confrontational, are we not siblings? Now that I don't have a plethora of words to sort through I can look at them easier yay! But address them, probably not. I do not have a stance on this. I am in this debate to ask, to learn, not address.

And by the way, is rightly dividing the word actually in the Bible, or is that a term thought up to make scripture conform to the osas doctrine?

I posted the verse in order to answer this question. I think maybe you need to slow down. Heaven knows Teejay and I do, we have stated as such.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And I have no problem heeding to this. But who is the expert in this that everyone should follow? Osas believers only? Let's see if Teejay will address things and heed to anything.



#42 gilbo12345

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:04 AM

I am arguing that it is God’s will that all be saved. Jesus said that if He were lifted up (on the Cross), He would draw ALL men to Him. So, as long as you admit that people do not go to Hell because the Father has capriciously decided not to draw them to Him, I’m fine with that.




But doesn't the Bible claim that there will be a sorting.... Sheep from Goats, etc... This would entail that some people are destined (either by God or by their own actions), to go to Hell since there cannot be any sorting if all are sheep...

#43 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 08:31 AM

Attention all:

I will make a startling admission: The opponents of OSAS are correct, if, and this is a big IF, they place themselves under the authority of Peter or the gospel of circumcision or the law. Israel, under the law, had a quid pro quo relationship with God. If you forgive, I will forgive you. If you tithe, I will bless you financially. If you obey Me, I will bless you coming in and going out. But we are not under Peter or the covenant of circumcision; we are under Paul or grace (uncircumcision).

God gave different "dispensations" in the Bible. Initially, God had a love relationship with Adam and Eve. When Cain killed Abel, God forbid the death penalty and instituted the dispensation of conscience. Here He allowed man to live governed only by conscience. It did not work and He had to flod the earth. But when Noah got off the Ark, the first thing God did was institute the death penalty (Gen. 9:6). Theologians call this the dispensation of government or law. To Paul was given the dispensation of grace. Christians today (Seventh-day Adventists for example) who argue for Sabbath keeping are under a dispensation that is not in effect. Likewise, opponents of OSAS are basing their argument on a covenant not in effect.


Can a Christian today lose his or her salvation? Or is salvation secured? One can open the Bible and show Scripture to prove both sides of this issue. Let’s examine Scripture that supports both sides of this argument.

Can Lose Salvation

Ezekiel wrote that a man could lose his salvation:

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness that he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Ezek. 18:24-28

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus said that we must tough it out to the end: “But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Mat. 24:13).

The writer of Hebrews wrote: “For it is impossible for those who . . . have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. . . if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance. . .” (Heb. 6:4, 6).

Peter said that it is better not to be saved than to be saved and lose your salvation: “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them” (2 Pet. 2:20-21, 22).

Other Scripture that supports this side of the argument: 1 Chr. 28:7; 2 Chr. 15:2; 24:20; Ps. 51:11; Mat. 6:12, 15; 10:22; 18:23-35; 23:13; 25:1-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:2, 6; 17:3 w/1 John 2:3; Heb. 3:14; 4:1; 6:4-15; 10:26-30, 36-38; James 2:9-13; 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:10; 3:17; 1 John 1:9 w/ Lord’s Prayer; 3:15; 5:2-3, 16-18; Jude 4-6; Rev. 2:5, 10-11; 3:1-3, 5 w/20:15, 15-38; 16:15.

Does this settle the argument or are there other Scripture passages which support the opposite view?

Cannot Lose Salvation

There would be no argument if only we could get rid of a troublesome little Jew named Saul of Tarsus (later renamed Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles”):

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress . . .? Yet. . . we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:35, 37-39

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Gal. 2:20

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. . . Eph. 1:13-14

For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. 2 Tim. 1:12

Then Paul points out that we are members of Jesus’ Body, and Jesus will not deny us because then He would be denying Himself:

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself [i.e., His Body; however, He will deny (v. 12) certain rewards (vv. 5-7) to the [i]shameful[/i] (v. 15) believer]. 2 Tim. 1:12

Other Scripture that supports security of your salvation: 1 Cor. 5:5; Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 2:6; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Col. 3:3, 13; 2 Tim. 1:12.

Kingdom Believers Could Lose Salvation

Notice that the first set of scriptural verses are addressed to Israel ‘s Kingdom believers under the Gospel of Circumcision or the Law. Jesus told these believers that they had to take the plow and not look back. They had to visit the sick. They had to visit prisoners in prison. They had to give to widows, orphans and the poor. They had to preach the gospel. They had to go two miles when asked to go one mile. They had to produce fruit (for “any tree not producing fruit will be cast into the fire”). If asked, they had to sell everything they had and follow Jesus. They had to heal the sick. They had to take up their crosses and follow Him. They had to love Jesus more than mother and father. They had to cast out demons. They had to have faith (if only as much as the grain of a mustard seed). Whew! And we are just getting started. And, if they endured to the end, Jesus would say, “Well done, good and faithful servant” (Mat. 25:21). A person saved under the gospel of circumcision was not assured of his salvation until he met Jesus BECAUSE HIS SALVATION WAS CONTINGENT ON FAITH PLUS WORKS AND LAW KEEPING. Jesus could say, “Well done, good and faithful servant” or “I know you not; I will cast you out of His presence.” No matter how you look at it, life under the gospel of circumcision was not for the faint of heart. In Matthew 18, Jesus teaches that if God forgave you your sins, and then you refused to forgive your neighbor’s sin against you, God would put back on you all your sins that He had previously forgiven you. Yikes! Such is life under the gospel of circumcision.

Understand though that even after these Kingdom believers gave it their best shot, they would still fall short. But God could add a little grace to their works. One can add grace to works, but one can never add works to a gift of love (Jesus’ sacrifice). At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, when Paul reveals the Gospel of Grace that he was preaching to the Gentiles (grace gospel), Peter defended Paul’s gospel (which was totally different and new): “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we [Circumcision believers] shall be saved in the same manner as they [Paul’s converts under the Gospel of Uncircumcision or grace]” (Acts 15:11). If we paraphrased Peter in today’s jargon: “Let’s face it, guys. Unless Jesus adds a little grace to our works, ain’t none of us goin’ make it.” Now please understand that circumcision believers the (Twelve) were not saved by grace alone as we are in the Body of Christ. Peter had to do good works, keep God’s law (symbolic and moral) plus have faith in Jesus. Works alone is not sufficient.

Tears and Regret in Heaven

Even though we who are saved under Paul’s gospel of grace and are secure in our salvation, there will still be tears in heaven. Jesus will wipe away and dry these tears, but there will be real tears and regret. In the movie Schindler’s List, there is a scene at the end where Schindler breaks down crying when he realizes that he could have saved more Jews. He points to the gold ring on his finger and weeps with regret that he could have purchased one more Jew with the gold ring.

Imagine how we will feel when we are in heaven, secure in our salvation and with our Lord, but confronted with the horror that we did not witness to our children, our parents, or our friends and they are now in hell never to be seen again. Yes, there will be tears—much tears and sorrow.

The excuses we had here on earth for not witnessing would have gotten us a standing ovation on the Oprah: “I never discuss religion or politics.” “I am not judgmental and I would never judge anyone.” “I thought my mother was a good person.” “My motto is, ‘to each his own.’” “I keep my religion personal.” “We must love the homos because God loves everyone.” “I don’t know what kind of god you worship, but my god would never send anyone to hell.” “I forgive everyone, even my unrepentant child molesting priest.” And each of us could add a few to this list.

Let’s Review

A believer saved under the Gospel of Circumcision or the Law could lose his or her salvation. Salvation hinged upon faith plus good works and keeping the law, (“the weightier, without leaving the lesser undone”). “Give it your best shot, and I will add a little grace,” promises God.

God cut off Israel for unbelief and their plan for a promised Kingdom is on hold, but “God will graft them in again” (Romans 11). God then sent Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles,” to the world, bypassing Israel (Acts 9). When God did this, He gave Paul a different gospel—the gospel of grace. Paul writes that this was a mystery “kept secret” (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:8-9). He calls it “my gospel” (Rom. 16:25). He said, “Follow me as I follow Christ.” He said that he was the first man saved under the gospel of grace—he laid the foundation (1 Cor. 3:9-10). In Galatians Paul wrote that God instructed him to go up to Peter and the other circumcision apostles and “explain to them the gospel which I preach.” If he were preaching a circumcision gospel, why would he have to explain it to the circumcision apostles?

And Paul writes over and over again that the gospel of grace or gospel of uncircumcision was given to Paul only (Eph. 3:1-2, 6:19; Gal. 1:24-26; 1 Tim. 1:11; 1 Cor. 9:16-17).


Coincidence

The first man in Israel’s kingdom was King Saul of the Tribe of Benjamin. The first man in the Body of Christ was Saul (or Paul) of the Tribe of Benjamin. The first Saul started out great (under the law) and ended up committing suicide and is now is hell. The second Saul started out badly (killing Christians) and ended up saved and is now with the Lord (saved by grace). What better man than Paul was there for God to use to show His new dispensation of grace?

Make sense?

TeeJay


#44 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 08:44 AM

[quote] name='gilbo12345' timestamp='1331107445' post='81288']
But doesn't the Bible claim that there will be a sorting.... Sheep from Goats, etc... This would entail that some people are destined (either by God or by their own actions), to go to Hell since there cannot be any sorting if all are sheep...
[/quote]

Gilbo,

Whether you want to be a sheep or a goat is entirely up to you. You can choose to be an enemy of God or a follower. If God forced you to follow Him, then you would do so simply because you had to and not because you wanted to. Which would please you more, your son obeying you because he loves you or because you make him obey you. God is not pleased with the man who never committed adultery because of the law and fear of getting caught; yet, for 30 years he lusted in his heart after his neighbor's wife. Incidently, his wife will not be too pleased with him either.

TeeJay

#45 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 09:04 AM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1330976261' post='81228']
A professed Christian that is not saved is a unsaved sinner. God does not categorize a in between position. And that is also shown during judgement.

Example:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Side note: Who are the goats? There is no verse in the Bible that ever refers unsaved sinners as goats.

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Side note: Left hand right hand judgment.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Side note: The judgment here that condemns or saves is not salvation. Read through this whole judgment and you will notice that it does not say: You are saved go here, you are unsaved go there. Instead there is a kingdom work standard.
1) Hungred and ye gave me no meat = The meat of the word for the more learned in Christ,
2) Thirsty and ye gave me no drink = The milk of the word for the new in Christ.
3) I was a stranger and you took me in = A stranger unto salvation. Taking them in is showing them the way unto salvation.
4) Naked and ye clothed me = Giving someone the word so they can put on the armor of God.
5) I was sick an ye visit me = Going to someone's house to pray for them while they were sick.
6) I was in prison and ye visit me = Christ cam to set the captives free. You visit the unsaved because they are imprisoned by sin.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Side note: Then the ones in the next few verses thought salvation was all that was needed and do not understand why they were not counted among the righteous.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now notice the part in red. Do you see that this was all about ministering (kingdom works) just like I pointed out? This means that the kingdom work is about giving the saved what is needed (the milk and meat of the word And clothing them with the word of God). And finding the unsaved where ever they may be and telling them about the gospel (Stranger, sick, and in prison). Also notice that each work is a trinity unto the group it is supposed to be done for.

So there are 3 things we are supposed to do for the saved, and 3 things we are supposed to do for the unsaved. So there are 6 ministry jobs to do when we get to be ministers. Ministry can take many forms. If for instance you help someone here you just ministered. If you live your Christian life on your sleeve so that others can see Christ through you, you ministered to everyone who saw this. If you take the time to answer the saved and unsaved questions about Christ, the Father, or the Word you are ministering. etc....

So we know from not being able to confirm in the word that the goats are not unsaved sinners. This idea was born out of making the word conform to a doctrine instead of the doctrine conforming to the word, If any of us were Satan and knew the works part was very important in order to get to Heaven. What would you do to deceive as many as you could to fail that judgment test? You would sell them on another doctrine that says "Kingdom works" are not needed. That any type of works is a sin. And that any work is working your way to Heaven. And that when anyone brings up the subject of works it is always shot down with the phrase: Oh, so you work your way to Heaven? Always proving the false doctrine with guilt. always ignoring all verses that counter it as if they do not exist. Always only bringing up the verses that seem to work to make the doctrine look true instead of actually using "every part the word" to "prove" it is true. Refusing to address any verse that does not work. The word is not a pick and choose type deal. If what you believe cannot be explained using all the verses that exist then there is something wrong.

So the goats are the saved who did not meet the "standard" of what the saved are supposed to do. But why call them goats then throw them into the fire? In the works judgment where what you did gets test by fire. And if it's not righteous it burns up. It is said that the same fire that burns your unrighteous work will also burn you. And what that fire does to you is also listed in this verse:

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now the only covenant that requires fire for sin atonement is the old covenant. And goats are one of the animals that are allowed as sin atonement to be burned on a fire. Starting to get the picture yet? And since the second judgment is being judged by Father God which is the head of the old covenant what does that mean? Because the goats from the first judgment are already in Hell, in the second judgment is the judgment of Hell. And all will be pulled from Hell so it means that the goats get judged again. This is what the plucking from the hands verse are about. We get judged in the hands of Christ but if we end up as goats we then get judged in the hands of Father God. And no man can pluck them out of the judgment of the Father's hands.

Now one might say: But I thought everyone at the Great White Throne judgment went to Hell. Well so did I because I was taught that in a osas church. But let's take a look at what the word says.

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If the judgment here was absolute to be condemned to the lake of fire, the verse would say:

And no one was found written in the book of life so everyone was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that it does not imply such a thing. In fact it implies that some will make it into heaven from here. And when I saw this amd realized this I thought: Who in the heck would be worthy here to get into Heaven. And that started my search. And that's when I found the goats and started putting things together.

How long do the goats stay in the fire? Through the 1,000 years we are with Christ on earth. You see we get corrected by Christ who will rule and reign with a rod. They will be corrected and purified by fire to be judged as worthy or not worthy by Father God.
[/quote]

Ikester,

All of your references place you under the gospel of circumcision or the law. The one verse from Paul (1 Cor. 3:13), you interpret incorrectly. Verse 12 says that each man's work will be tested by fire. This is an awards banquet in heaven. Some will get gold crows, some silver, etc. I will probably get a straw hat? While fire will test our works, we will not be judged for salvation. There are no unsaved members of the Body of Christ in heaven. If we are to be judged for salvation, then Romans 10:9-10 is a lie.

Are you aware that if you place yourself under the authority of Peter or the law, then you are required to circumcise, keep the Sabbaths, some of Israel's feasts, etc.? And, when the gospel of circumcision was in effect, violation of these laws was a death penalty.

TeeJay

#46 MamaElephant

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:03 PM

Great scriptures. Can't wait to study up on this.

It makes no sense to me at all that God's chosen people would have to work for salvation and the rest of the world would receive it for free.

I am also worried... what if I have Israelite in the family tree and don't know it? Then the gospel of grace is a lie to me!

#47 MamaElephant

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:18 PM

A scripture is worth a thousand words: 2 Peter 3: 14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

So Peter was writing
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

and telling them to listen to Paul.... and telling them to be careful not to lose their steadfastness.

Hmmmm...
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#48 Salsa

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:45 PM

There is only one gospel - the gospel of Jesus Christ. It has its roots in the faith of Abraham and is available to all who believe - both Jew and gentile. The covenant of faith preceded the law, which I think is significant, since the law which given as a schoolmaster (a wrong-way sign) to lead the Jews back to faith in Christ.

Jesus reconfirmed the Abrahamic convenant though his crucifiction and re-established the promise given to Abraham - that he would be the father of many nations - consisting of both Jew and gentile.

#49 gilbo12345

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:05 PM

Gilbo,

Whether you want to be a sheep or a goat is entirely up to you. You can choose to be an enemy of God or a follower. If God forced you to follow Him, then you would do so simply because you had to and not because you wanted to. Which would please you more, your son obeying you because he loves you or because you make him obey you. God is not pleased with the man who never committed adultery because of the law and fear of getting caught; yet, for 30 years he lusted in his heart after his neighbor's wife. Incidently, his wife will not be too pleased with him either.

TeeJay

Gilbo,

Whether you want to be a sheep or a goat is entirely up to you. You can choose to be an enemy of God or a follower. If God forced you to follow Him, then you would do so simply because you had to and not because you wanted to. Which would please you more, your son obeying you because he loves you or because you make him obey you. God is not pleased with the man who never committed adultery because of the law and fear of getting caught; yet, for 30 years he lusted in his heart after his neighbor's wife. Incidently, his wife will not be too pleased with him either.

TeeJay


I wasn't talking about myself, nor should you turn this conversation onto my own choices I was just refuting your claim from before. In that God has already chosen the goats since He, knows the past, present and future.. (Omniscient)

Also forced love and obedience has no take in this... I agree that God could have made us with no freewill to choose, however that would be as satisfying, (and gratifying ) as if I made a computer game where you win with the push of a button.

#50 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 03:49 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331147017' post='81318']
Great scriptures. Can't wait to study up on this.

It makes no sense to me at all that God's chosen people would have to work for salvation and the rest of the world would receive it for free.

I am also worried... what if I have Israelite in the family tree and don't know it? Then the gospel of grace is a lie to me!
[/quote]






ME, Paul writes that in this new "dispensation of grace that was committed to me [Paul]," there is neither Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free. God offers this free gift to all who "confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead." It's so simple, that God should have wrote it in crayon just to emphasize how simple it is. Man has complicated it.



Under the gospel of circumcision (law), a male child came under this convenant when he was circumcised on the eighth day. A female came under it when she was born to a Jewish man. A slave came under it as a servant to a Jewish man. Any Gentile wanting to accept Israel's God had to come through the nation of Israel, get circumcised, and keep the law (proselyte Jew). So Paul could write that in the Body of Christ, "there is no Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free and we are all one in Christ (Gal. 3:28). Understand that God did not raise us Gentiles up to Israel's level. Rather, he brought Israel down to our level so that He could have mercy on both the Jew and the Gentile. We in the Body can approach God as individuals directly, rather than through His chosen people. He cut off His chosen nation Israel for unbelief.



We did get a better deal than Israel. But realize that God had some great things in store for Israel. He planned for them to be His evangelical nation to the world. He planned to give them an earthly kingdom. He planned to give them the gifts of the Holy Spirit which included miracle power. But all this was contingent on Israel accepted their risen Christ. In the first half of the Book of Acts, we see the apostles doing everything in their power to get Israel as a nation to accept their Messiah "so that God the Father would send Jesus back and establish the promised kingdom" (Acts 3:19 for example). But their answer was to kill the apostles. Patience exhausted, God cut off Israel. He simultaneously grafted in the Gentiles through Paul, with the new gospel of grace, bypassing Israel.

Also, God had to give His law first and then grace. The law has two purposes and two only. The first purpose is to deter criminals. The second purpose is to convict us of our sins and show us our need for a Savior. The law is God’s number one evangelical tool to witness for Jesus. But sadly, Christians are taught that we should not judge. But Jesus admonished us to first get our eye clear and then not to leave the brother with the speck in his eye. He did not say to leave it there. And if we did not judge, we could not witness to anyone, we could not forgive anyone, nor could we rebuke anyone. Only plants do not judge.

One of the reasons God gave us a better deal was to make Israel jealous (Rom. 10:19 & 11:11). It did not work.

TeeJay

#51 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:36 PM

[quote] name='gilbo12345' timestamp='1331157958' post='81332']
I wasn't talking about myself, nor should you turn this conversation onto my own choices I was just refuting your claim from before. In that God has already chosen the goats since He, knows the past, present and future.. (Omniscient)

Also forced love and obedience has no take in this... I agree that God could have made us with no freewill to choose, however that would be as satisfying, (and gratifying ) as if I made a computer game where you win with the push of a button.
[/quote]

Gilbo, I meant nothing personal. Perhaps I could have used "people" instead of "you."

During the beginning, of Acts, the apostles were starting into their tribulation as promised by Jesus. He gave them twelve signs that they could watch for that would let them know they were in the Tribulation. God cut off Israel for unbelief. God's plan for Israel is on hold, and He is presently working with the Body of Christ. But Jesus is coming back and will resume where He left off 2,000 years ago. When you see His wrath being poured out as described in Revelation, you will know that we will be meeting Him in about seven years.

No member of the Body of Christ will be here when the Tribulation starts, for Paul writes that we will be taken out of here before that happens and we are "saved from the wrath that is to come"--the wrath being the time of Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation. All who have not accepted Jesus, and are not members of the Body of Christ will go through the Tribulation. The only way for an unbeliver to escape the Tribulation is if he dies before it comes. In this event, he will be in Hell.

Incidently, the goats and sheep is when Jesus comes back after the Tribulation, and He will judge nations of people. Those who blessed Israel will be rewarded. Those who have persecuted Israel will be set on His left hand as a goat.

I'm glad that you have grasped that God can't make people love Him. So many Christians can't comprehend that. But God does not know the future of any individual. He can't grant us the freedom to choose and then know how we will choose. He can look into our hearts IF HE WANTS TO and guess very accurately how we will choose in the near future, but He can't possible know the unknowable. God knows everything knowable that He wants to know. God can instantly know how many hairs on your head IF HE WANTS TO. But I don't think God is a mindless government bureaucrat keeping track of useless data.

TeeJay

#52 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:48 PM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331149537' post='81325']
There is only one gospel - the gospel of Jesus Christ. It has its roots in the faith of Abraham and is available to all who believe - both Jew and gentile. The covenant of faith preceded the law, which I think is significant, since the law which given as a schoolmaster (a wrong-way sign) to lead the Jews back to faith in Christ.

Jesus reconfirmed the Abrahamic convenant though his crucifiction and re-established the promise given to Abraham - that he would be the father of many nations - consisting of both Jew and gentile.
[/quote]

UD,

Jesus or any circumcision apostle did not preach a gospel of grace where we are saved by faith plus nothing. Many think that after the Cross Israel was no longer under the law. But this is untenable because many of the laws (circumcision, Sabbaths, feasts, etc.) are perpetual for Israel and Israel will be observing these laws in their thousand year kingdom and in the new heaven and the new earth. And I can show that if you like.

If you were in Paul's church and you preached a circumcision gospel (law and works) , Gal. 2:7-9, he would beat you severly about the head and shoulders.

I did an earlier post on this that God made two covenants with Abraham, the first of grace and the second of law so that he could be the father of both groups.... Read it and get back to me.

TeeJay

#53 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:03 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331147916' post='81321']
A scripture is worth a thousand words: 2 Peter 3: 14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

So Peter was writing
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

and telling them to listen to Paul.... and telling them to be careful not to lose their steadfastness.

Hmmmm...
[/quote]

ME, Peter admits that he really did not understand what Paul was teaching. Why? Becasue it was a different gospel than the one that Peter had received from Jesus Christ.

In the Acts 10:35, Peter preaches that "whoever... WORKS righteousness is accepted by Him. No works are required to be saved by grace for Paul writes that grace is a free gift and if you work for it, it's no longer a gift. I can hire a man to cut my pasture. His reward is future and based on works or how good a job he does. Life under the law is like this. You keep the law, "the weightier matters without leaving the lesser undone," do good works (profitable servant), and have faith in Jesus. If i give a gift of jewelery to my wife (love gift), she does not expect me to take it back some day. God gives us the love gift of grace (faith plus nothing) and He will not take the gift back.

TeeJay

#54 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:19 PM

I am serious because with your comments I can tell that nothing I say is going to be taken seriously (It will take a ton of posts to convince me, God is going to predestined that I win). So when a debate opponent does me this way I do the same back. Which actually is a wasted debate.


Ikester, Sorry I took so long to answer this. I overlooked it.

I was attempting to insert a little humor. If that upset you, then I promise never to be humorous again.

Also, you can use your doctrine to prove osas but it's not being proved by the word. Rightly divide the scripture is a term used to make your doctrine look true and that you can twist it anyway you like. And because you consider yourself rightly dividing the word to an absolute truth can anyone disagree or are they consider wrongly dividing the word for disagreeing? In other word do only osas believers rightly divide the word? I just did a search kjv and it's not there which means it was made up.


You accuse me falsely. Check my posts. It is seldom indeed when I make an argument and do not cite chapter and verse from the Bible. If you think I have “twisted” any scripture, please show me with a reasoned argument rather than an assertion. In debate, rebuttals should be made with logical arguments rather than assertions because an assertion can be rebutted easily with a counter assertion. You are free to disagree. I have no power to stop you. “Be dilligent to present yourself approved of God… who does not need to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH” (2 Tim. 2:14). And this verse is in the context of OSAS argument I used: Since we are members of His body, if He denies us, He denies himself (2 Tim. 2:11-12).

I can prove what I believe using scripture and very little dividing if any. This is because the word has to mesh not contradict, Rightly dividing is where you try and leave contradictions and not work them out but instead take them and redefine them to support osas. Like the way evolutionists often try to rewrite reality to make evolution look true.


If you can prove what’s true using scripture, and if what you believe is contrary to my belief, then you should be able to easily refute me. And you are making many accusations against me which are unsubstantiated. All Scripture does not “mesh” all the time. I will give some examples:

Paul told his followers in 1 Corinthians 8 under His gospel that they did not have to be concerned about eating meat sacrificed to idols—unless it offended a weaker brother (a Jew under the law). Realize that Paul is talking to members of the Body of Christ saved under His grace gospel.

Contrast this with Jesus talking to Jews under the law: To the church at Pergamos, Jesus says: “I have a few things against you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel to EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS…” (Rev. 2:14).


I submit that you can’t possible mesh these two commands from God together unless you “rightly divide the word of truth.” Ikester, why is this so hard to accept? For example, a military can give one order to a unit to dig in and hold. To another unit, he can give an order to attack from the rear. God would never change His moral law and say to us, “Now you can commit murder.” But He does change rules which are not moral all the time. He is living, personal, relational, good and loving. He is not a stone idol that He can’t do something different.

While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

So, Ikester, I must ask you to rethink your position that God can’t change rules for the Body that He had for Israel.


And by the way, is rightly dividing the word actually in the Bible, or is that a term thought up to make scripture conform to the osas doctrine? You see I often see osas believers making up terms that do not exist in the Bible to help them win debates. When you have truth you don;t have to go outside of the Bible and make up stuff. This is because if what you believe is truly supported by the Bible is not needed.


In light of what I posted previous to this, will you retract your unsubstantiated accusation?

It's like the phrase that all osas believers like to tag onto those whom disagree. And that is we are working for our salvation. Or that every time we sin we lose our salvation. And so on and so forth. While I could respond along those lines and say osas is a ticket to sin. But what did either of us prove if we did that? But that is where the debate will go if things are not changed.


Let’s take two scenarios. Under which gospel will you be more successful in not committing adultery? The first scenario is that you are motivated by law to not commit adultery. The second scenario is that you do not want to commit adultery because you love God and you love and cherish your wife? If you are motivated by law and not love, will you wife and God be pleased?

And the other reason I bowed out was how many verses that I posted did you actually directly address? Zero. But you will expect me to address all of yours right? You imply that you have so much truth that even God will help you win. Real truth can address anything directly and prove everything else absolutely wrong. But when you ignore the verses I bring up in favor of preaching osas you prove that your implied truth cannot hold up to scripture that would challenge it.


Ikester, I did address your referenced verses. I said that except for one Pauline verse (which you interpreted wrong), all your verses were made by Jesus under the law and by circumcision apostles. And I admitted that you were right if and this is a big IF, you place yourself under Peter and not Paul.

So if rules and common ground cannot be reached then to what point do we debate? You imply that you want to resolve the issue. Is it resolving it for me only to your liking or resolving it for yourself also? Because if your intent is one sided only then everything I say is a waste so why should I even say it?


I seek truth. Either what I posted is true or what you posted is true. Now both of us can be wrong, but both of us can’t be right because we have contradictory arguments. If you can show my arguments to be untrue, then do so. My liking has nothing to do with what is true.





So if it continues like this where everything I say basically gets ignore for everything you say then as far as I'm concerned the debate is over. Either


Ikester, I think I have devoted more time to you than anyone on this thread. And it’s over for you and me, but there are others who may wish to debate

TeeJay.


#55 Teejay

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:33 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331083720' post='81261']
King Saul received Holy Spirit? Was the promise of indwelling in effect before Christ came? We can reject his will yet still be saved, because OSAS is biblical? I would have to disagree with this.
[/quote]

ME, In the OT, there were time when God gave the Holy Spirit to his servants (see 1 Sam. 11:6). But Saul became evil and disobedient and God withdrew HIs Spirit. So, God left Saul (28:15). Not many Christians that King Saul not only lost his earthly kingdom; he lost out on being in the Messianic line of Jesus Christ.

TeeJay

#56 MamaElephant

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:51 PM

And I admitted that you were right if and this is a big IF, you place yourself under Peter and not Paul.


I am trying to understand what you are saying with this brain of mine not wanting to read and absorb so much. Would you say that anyone is under Peter's gospel today?

#57 ikester7579

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:55 PM

But these unsaved sinners attend church and are preached to. So these unsaved sinners could have been attending church and had letters written that included things that applied to them that were included in the NT.

For example, my church very rarely mentions hell in the main sermon, but the kids who are not yet saved hear about it more often. Now, my church does not define hell, so we define it ourselves to our children and that prevents any problems... but they do hear about it more often than mom and dad do.


Does attending church get you special position in the judgment? Nope.

And the reason Hell is not preached about much is because even churches have politically correct rules. Most of the congregation that does not live their lives right and do nothing for the kingdom don;t want to hear about it. And since it's also these people who hire, fire, and decide what the preacher should make do you think the preacher wants to make them mad to ensure he no longer has a job? If today preachers took a stand in the church and said: I'm preaching what the Bible says period and I don;t care what you think how many do you think would get fired? The preacher does not control what is said when it comes to denominational belief systems. And that's another reason I choose non-denominational. It allows me to adhere to God's word without having to filter it through a denomination interpretation of what it should say. Not having to question what the Holy spirit leads me to see allows me to follow without question. Having a struggle where struggles should not exist stifles that.

#58 ikester7579

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 11:50 PM

I am trying to understand what you are saying with this brain of mine not wanting to read and absorb so much. Would you say that anyone is under Peter's gospel today?


The reason Teejay makes such assertions is because anyone, including those in the Bible, get categorized for disagreeing with osas. So even Teejay will make scripture look wrong and a gospel worthless to prove his doctrine. No-osas does not have to do that. So do you think Peter's gospel is wrong? Do you think preaching and implying that Peter;s gospel is worthless is the right thing to do in favor of a denominational belief? What do you think God is going to say about people who do this?

#59 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:19 AM

Attention all:

I will make a startling admission: The opponents of OSAS are correct, if, and this is a big IF, they place themselves under the authority of Peter or the gospel of circumcision or the law. Israel, under the law, had a quid pro quo relationship with God. If you forgive, I will forgive you. If you tithe, I will bless you financially. If you obey Me, I will bless you coming in and going out. But we are not under Peter or the covenant of circumcision; we are under Paul or grace (uncircumcision).

God gave different "dispensations" in the Bible. Initially, God had a love relationship with Adam and Eve. When Cain killed Abel, God forbid the death penalty and instituted the dispensation of conscience. Here He allowed man to live governed only by conscience. It did not work and He had to flod the earth. But when Noah got off the Ark, the first thing God did was institute the death penalty (Gen. 9:6). Theologians call this the dispensation of government or law. To Paul was given the dispensation of grace. Christians today (Seventh-day Adventists for example) who argue for Sabbath keeping are under a dispensation that is not in effect. Likewise, opponents of OSAS are basing their argument on a covenant not in effect.


Can a Christian today lose his or her salvation? Or is salvation secured? One can open the Bible and show Scripture to prove both sides of this issue. Let’s examine Scripture that supports both sides of this argument.

Can Lose Salvation

Ezekiel wrote that a man could lose his salvation:

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness that he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Ezek. 18:24-28

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus said that we must tough it out to the end: “But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Mat. 24:13).

The writer of Hebrews wrote: “For it is impossible for those who . . . have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. . . if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance. . .” (Heb. 6:4, 6).

Peter said that it is better not to be saved than to be saved and lose your salvation: “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them” (2 Pet. 2:20-21, 22).

Other Scripture that supports this side of the argument: 1 Chr. 28:7; 2 Chr. 15:2; 24:20; Ps. 51:11; Mat. 6:12, 15; 10:22; 18:23-35; 23:13; 25:1-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:2, 6; 17:3 w/1 John 2:3; Heb. 3:14; 4:1; 6:4-15; 10:26-30, 36-38; James 2:9-13; 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:10; 3:17; 1 John 1:9 w/ Lord’s Prayer; 3:15; 5:2-3, 16-18; Jude 4-6; Rev. 2:5, 10-11; 3:1-3, 5 w/20:15, 15-38; 16:15.

Does this settle the argument or are there other Scripture passages which support the opposite view?

Cannot Lose Salvation

There would be no argument if only we could get rid of a troublesome little Jew named Saul of Tarsus (later renamed Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles”):

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress . . .? Yet. . . we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:35, 37-39

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Gal. 2:20

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. . . Eph. 1:13-14

For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. 2 Tim. 1:12

Then Paul points out that we are members of Jesus’ Body, and Jesus will not deny us because then He would be denying Himself:

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself [i.e., His Body; however, He will deny (v. 12) certain rewards (vv. 5-7) to the [i]shameful[/i] (v. 15) believer]. 2 Tim. 1:12

Other Scripture that supports security of your salvation: 1 Cor. 5:5; Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 2:6; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Col. 3:3, 13; 2 Tim. 1:12.

Kingdom Believers Could Lose Salvation

Notice that the first set of scriptural verses are addressed to Israel ‘s Kingdom believers under the Gospel of Circumcision or the Law. Jesus told these believers that they had to take the plow and not look back. They had to visit the sick. They had to visit prisoners in prison. They had to give to widows, orphans and the poor. They had to preach the gospel. They had to go two miles when asked to go one mile. They had to produce fruit (for “any tree not producing fruit will be cast into the fire”). If asked, they had to sell everything they had and follow Jesus. They had to heal the sick. They had to take up their crosses and follow Him. They had to love Jesus more than mother and father. They had to cast out demons. They had to have faith (if only as much as the grain of a mustard seed). Whew! And we are just getting started. And, if they endured to the end, Jesus would say, “Well done, good and faithful servant” (Mat. 25:21). A person saved under the gospel of circumcision was not assured of his salvation until he met Jesus BECAUSE HIS SALVATION WAS CONTINGENT ON FAITH PLUS WORKS AND LAW KEEPING. Jesus could say, “Well done, good and faithful servant” or “I know you not; I will cast you out of His presence.” No matter how you look at it, life under the gospel of circumcision was not for the faint of heart. In Matthew 18, Jesus teaches that if God forgave you your sins, and then you refused to forgive your neighbor’s sin against you, God would put back on you all your sins that He had previously forgiven you. Yikes! Such is life under the gospel of circumcision.

Understand though that even after these Kingdom believers gave it their best shot, they would still fall short. But God could add a little grace to their works. One can add grace to works, but one can never add works to a gift of love (Jesus’ sacrifice). At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, when Paul reveals the Gospel of Grace that he was preaching to the Gentiles (grace gospel), Peter defended Paul’s gospel (which was totally different and new): “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we [Circumcision believers] shall be saved in the same manner as they [Paul’s converts under the Gospel of Uncircumcision or grace]” (Acts 15:11). If we paraphrased Peter in today’s jargon: “Let’s face it, guys. Unless Jesus adds a little grace to our works, ain’t none of us goin’ make it.” Now please understand that circumcision believers the (Twelve) were not saved by grace alone as we are in the Body of Christ. Peter had to do good works, keep God’s law (symbolic and moral) plus have faith in Jesus. Works alone is not sufficient.

Tears and Regret in Heaven

Even though we who are saved under Paul’s gospel of grace and are secure in our salvation, there will still be tears in heaven. Jesus will wipe away and dry these tears, but there will be real tears and regret. In the movie Schindler’s List, there is a scene at the end where Schindler breaks down crying when he realizes that he could have saved more Jews. He points to the gold ring on his finger and weeps with regret that he could have purchased one more Jew with the gold ring.

Imagine how we will feel when we are in heaven, secure in our salvation and with our Lord, but confronted with the horror that we did not witness to our children, our parents, or our friends and they are now in hell never to be seen again. Yes, there will be tears—much tears and sorrow.

The excuses we had here on earth for not witnessing would have gotten us a standing ovation on the Oprah: “I never discuss religion or politics.” “I am not judgmental and I would never judge anyone.” “I thought my mother was a good person.” “My motto is, ‘to each his own.’” “I keep my religion personal.” “We must love the homos because God loves everyone.” “I don’t know what kind of god you worship, but my god would never send anyone to hell.” “I forgive everyone, even my unrepentant child molesting priest.” And each of us could add a few to this list.

Let’s Review

A believer saved under the Gospel of Circumcision or the Law could lose his or her salvation. Salvation hinged upon faith plus good works and keeping the law, (“the weightier, without leaving the lesser undone”). “Give it your best shot, and I will add a little grace,” promises God.

God cut off Israel for unbelief and their plan for a promised Kingdom is on hold, but “God will graft them in again” (Romans 11). God then sent Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles,” to the world, bypassing Israel (Acts 9). When God did this, He gave Paul a different gospel—the gospel of grace. Paul writes that this was a mystery “kept secret” (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:8-9). He calls it “my gospel” (Rom. 16:25). He said, “Follow me as I follow Christ.” He said that he was the first man saved under the gospel of grace—he laid the foundation (1 Cor. 3:9-10). In Galatians Paul wrote that God instructed him to go up to Peter and the other circumcision apostles and “explain to them the gospel which I preach.” If he were preaching a circumcision gospel, why would he have to explain it to the circumcision apostles?

And Paul writes over and over again that the gospel of grace or gospel of uncircumcision was given to Paul only (Eph. 3:1-2, 6:19; Gal. 1:24-26; 1 Tim. 1:11; 1 Cor. 9:16-17).


Coincidence

The first man in Israel’s kingdom was King Saul of the Tribe of Benjamin. The first man in the Body of Christ was Saul (or Paul) of the Tribe of Benjamin. The first Saul started out great (under the law) and ended up committing suicide and is now is hell. The second Saul started out badly (killing Christians) and ended up saved and is now with the Lord (saved by grace). What better man than Paul was there for God to use to show His new dispensation of grace?

Make sense?

TeeJay

Ikester,

All of your references place you under the gospel of circumcision or the law. The one verse from Paul (1 Cor. 3:13), you interpret incorrectly. Verse 12 says that each man's work will be tested by fire. This is an awards banquet in heaven. Some will get gold crows, some silver, etc. I will probably get a straw hat? While fire will test our works, we will not be judged for salvation. There are no unsaved members of the Body of Christ in heaven. If we are to be judged for salvation, then Romans 10:9-10 is a lie.

Are you aware that if you place yourself under the authority of Peter or the law, then you are required to circumcise, keep the Sabbaths, some of Israel's feasts, etc.? And, when the gospel of circumcision was in effect, violation of these laws was a death penalty.

TeeJay

Ikester, Sorry I took so long to answer this. I overlooked it.

I was attempting to insert a little humor. If that upset you, then I promise never to be humorous again.



You accuse me falsely. Check my posts. It is seldom indeed when I make an argument and do not cite chapter and verse from the Bible. If you think I have “twisted” any scripture, please show me with a reasoned argument rather than an assertion. In debate, rebuttals should be made with logical arguments rather than assertions because an assertion can be rebutted easily with a counter assertion. You are free to disagree. I have no power to stop you. “Be dilligent to present yourself approved of God… who does not need to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH” (2 Tim. 2:14). And this verse is in the context of OSAS argument I used: Since we are members of His body, if He denies us, He denies himself (2 Tim. 2:11-12).



If you can prove what’s true using scripture, and if what you believe is contrary to my belief, then you should be able to easily refute me. And you are making many accusations against me which are unsubstantiated. All Scripture does not “mesh” all the time. I will give some examples:

Paul told his followers in 1 Corinthians 8 under His gospel that they did not have to be concerned about eating meat sacrificed to idols—unless it offended a weaker brother (a Jew under the law). Realize that Paul is talking to members of the Body of Christ saved under His grace gospel.

Contrast this with Jesus talking to Jews under the law: To the church at Pergamos, Jesus says: “I have a few things against you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel to EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS…” (Rev. 2:14).


I submit that you can’t possible mesh these two commands from God together unless you “rightly divide the word of truth.” Ikester, why is this so hard to accept? For example, a military can give one order to a unit to dig in and hold. To another unit, he can give an order to attack from the rear. God would never change His moral law and say to us, “Now you can commit murder.” But He does change rules which are not moral all the time. He is living, personal, relational, good and loving. He is not a stone idol that He can’t do something different.

While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

So, Ikester, I must ask you to rethink your position that God can’t change rules for the Body that He had for Israel.




In light of what I posted previous to this, will you retract your unsubstantiated accusation?



Let’s take two scenarios. Under which gospel will you be more successful in not committing adultery? The first scenario is that you are motivated by law to not commit adultery. The second scenario is that you do not want to commit adultery because you love God and you love and cherish your wife? If you are motivated by law and not love, will you wife and God be pleased?



Ikester, I did address your referenced verses. I said that except for one Pauline verse (which you interpreted wrong), all your verses were made by Jesus under the law and by circumcision apostles. And I admitted that you were right if and this is a big IF, you place yourself under Peter and not Paul.



I seek truth. Either what I posted is true or what you posted is true. Now both of us can be wrong, but both of us can’t be right because we have contradictory arguments. If you can show my arguments to be untrue, then do so. My liking has nothing to do with what is true.







Ikester, I think I have devoted more time to you than anyone on this thread. And it’s over for you and me, but there are others who may wish to debate

TeeJay.

Still cannot address those verses directly so you come up with a one size fits all excuse hoping everyone here will buy into it? Anytime someone has to make the gospel of any person in the Bible sound worthless and we should not read is basically preaching a false Doctrine. And it shows your desperation in not wanting to address those verses that reveal truth because you actually might have to face that it you did.

If I preached the doctrine of no-osas and every book in God's word that did not agree I took and used your excuse to imply that this person who said has a worthless gospel because he preaching old testament covenant, what would I really be preaching? That unless the Bible agrees with me and what I believe it's no good. Earlier in this thread I made a comment that was corrected by MamaElephant and you and I did not have one problem heeding to it. You have shown here that the only thing that heeds in your doctrine is making the word heed and not self.

Your fix all answer to what you claim in God;'s word cannot be proven. And you won;t address things like:

The unforgiven sin and who can commit it. Because if the unsaved sinners are the only ones that this applies to (how osas must work) then sin becomes more powerful than what Christ did on the cross. And these people: http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/ And there's the video below.




You see your doctrine Gives Satan more power than what Christ did on the cross by given Satan a way to block salvation. So here is it broken down:

1) If you believe in osas which is where you ca never lose salvation, only unsaved sinners can commit the sin of blaspheming and therefore allows sin to block salvation showing that what Christ did on the cross cannot forgive all sins for the unsaved to be forgiven. And that the website above which is run by militant atheists are more power than any Christian even if God gives them all power in Heaven. Anytime Satan has more power in any instance Satan becomes god.

2) If you believe in no-osas which is where you can lose salvation. The unforgiven sin of blasphemy only applies to the saved. Therefore giving all power back to what Christ did on the cross and taking away the power of sin to block salvation to the unsaved.

So the question is: Is God all powerful and does what Christ did on the cross forgive all sin for the unsaved? Or does one sin block it all making Satan have more power than what Christ did on the cross and that website be right and all the men women and children who did this be damned for all eternity?

So in osas Satan has power to block salvation before it is given.
In no-osas he cannot because only the saved can do this.

The reasoning behind this as well is that the unsaved sinner is already damned. So when they commit this sin do they become double damned? That does not even make sense.

So Teejay, will you address this subject of blaspheming or will you come up with another fix all answer while ignoring the implications of what you preach? Look at that video and tell us that those people have the power with that sin to block salvation so that your osas belief can be true.

#60 gilbo12345

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:50 AM

Gilbo, I meant nothing personal. Perhaps I could have used "people" instead of "you."

During the beginning, of Acts, the apostles were starting into their tribulation as promised by Jesus. He gave them twelve signs that they could watch for that would let them know they were in the Tribulation. God cut off Israel for unbelief. God's plan for Israel is on hold, and He is presently working with the Body of Christ. But Jesus is coming back and will resume where He left off 2,000 years ago. When you see His wrath being poured out as described in Revelation, you will know that we will be meeting Him in about seven years.

No member of the Body of Christ will be here when the Tribulation starts, for Paul writes that we will be taken out of here before that happens and we are "saved from the wrath that is to come"--the wrath being the time of Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation. All who have not accepted Jesus, and are not members of the Body of Christ will go through the Tribulation. The only way for an unbeliver to escape the Tribulation is if he dies before it comes. In this event, he will be in Hell.

Incidently, the goats and sheep is when Jesus comes back after the Tribulation, and He will judge nations of people. Those who blessed Israel will be rewarded. Those who have persecuted Israel will be set on His left hand as a goat.

I'm glad that you have grasped that God can't make people love Him. So many Christians can't comprehend that. But God does not know the future of any individual. He can't grant us the freedom to choose and then know how we will choose. He can look into our hearts IF HE WANTS TO and guess very accurately how we will choose in the near future, but He can't possible know the unknowable. God knows everything knowable that He wants to know. God can instantly know how many hairs on your head IF HE WANTS TO. But I don't think God is a mindless government bureaucrat keeping track of useless data.

TeeJay


No problem TeeJay :)

I don't think I have persecuted Israel, I have complained about people from my past and their actions, but haven't persecuted them. I have forgiven them, (to a point, as I will not forget it). Guess I have 7 years to get my act together so I can truthfully call myself a Christian ;)

Yes I am aware of the paradox of how can we have freewill if God is omniscient... I believe this could be a thread in of itself. I will say that guessing is not knowing, and thus isn't being omniscient, but as I said before this would be best put in its own thread, (if you wish to discuss it :) )




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