[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331288538' post='81411']
It sounds contrived for the reason I gave. it doesn't make sense given the verses involved. If the Jews that become Christian have to keep the law in order to be saved then where does grace enter the picture? They would have been just as bad off as they were before because no one can obey the entire law.[/quote]
UD, I will try one more time. My dictionary defines "contrive" as a "plot, scheme, plan to do evil." Why would I do that? Now some facts that I want you to disppute:
1. A grace gospel, saved by faith plus nothing, can't be found in any circumcision writings.
2. Other than the gentile Cornelius, there is no Biblical record of any circumcision apostle witnessing to one Gentile.
3. Establishment of the Body of Christ with a grace gospel was a "mystery," "kept secret," "never before revealed."
4. The circumcision apostles were keeping the law after the Cross.
5. Jesus never told one Jew, under the gospel of circumcision, that law keeping and works were not required.
I purposely left off Scripture references. I will let you look this up yourself since you think I'm a contriver.
[quote]Sure. And I showed you with scripture that when anyone is in Christ then he is a new creation - the old is gone. Those who do not receive Christ will need to keep the old laws - forever! The only escape from that is by being born again.[/quote]
That a Pauline message and it is written to Jews, Gentiles, et.al. under the gospel of uncircumcision or grace. No Jew that sat at the feet of Jesus could make such a presumptuous statement. "Any tree that does not produce fruit is cast into the fire."
[quote]Yes, I will. Have never denied it.[/quote]
Okay! Will you then admit that members of the Body of Christ do not have to keep the Sabbath? See Rom. 14:5-6; Col. 2:16-17; Gal 2:18-19, 3:10, & Gal. 4:10-11). And should it not dawn on you that perhaps there is a difference between Israel and the Body?
[quote]This is not what the verse says. It says those who are "in Christ". That would include the Jewish believers:
"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." (Heb 3:14)[/quote]
A Jew can be saved under Paul's gospel of grace today. But he can't be saved under the dispensation of circumcision because that dispensation is no longer in effect.
Will you admit that God cut off Israel for unbelief?
[quote]Of course he wrote that, because his point was that once someone is in Christ then neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.[/quote]
Paul wrote, "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised" (1 Cor. 7:18
). Paul is not talking here about reverse surgery. If you were saved under Peter's gospel of circumcision or law, you had to stay under that dispensation. Likewise, members of the Body of Christ, saved under the dispensation of grace, should not put themselves under the law. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29
And somehow, you take this to mean that circumcision has no value?????????????????????????????????? How in the world did you get that interpretation? And you accuse me of being a contriver. Yikes!
Will you admit a second simple truth that circumcision was for the Jews and was a perpetual command?
[quote]It would, if you could demonstrate that what happens in the New Heaven and the New Earth are the "shadows" written in the OT, rather than the realities in Chist. Even we are partakers of the realities in Christ. We have all entered the sabbath rest, just as we have all been circumcised.
But you already admitted above that the Sabbath law was perpetual for Israel? So now you're saying that in the future it would just be a shadow?
I'm not sure there is any scripture or argment that will convince you.