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Freshwater Experiments Have Begun/ An Empirical Test Of Pre Flood Oceans


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#1 jason777

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:21 AM

I've begun freshwater experiments with marine invertebrates predicting a fresh/brackish water origin of our oceans. I'm currently running the specific gravity well below NSW levels (1.020/27 PPT). So this reverse adaptation should able to be completed within a 1 year time frame allowed by the flood without any advantageous alleles needed to be fixed into the population.

S@xual reproduction of marine invertebrates is problematic in captive conditions and all but impossible with my tiny tank and equipment. So I'm experimenting with tiny anemones, Xenia, and Zoanthids, which reproduce both s*xually and asexually. I also have tiny micro brittle stars, asterina stars, isopods, and amphipods.

The starfish are going to be the best test subjects because they can't s@xually reproduce; Meaning, they had to adapt to an increased sodium level while remaining genetically identical to their parent.

Posted Image

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I'll keep you updated every time the specific gravity is lowered.


Enjoy.

#2 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:14 AM

Very cool. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it.

#3 JayShel

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:40 AM

I'm curious too. Sounds like a cool experiment.

#4 SomchaiA

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:07 AM

I also find this interesting. What are the results so far?

#5 jason777

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:04 PM

I'm now at 1.018 and as predicted, I see healthier colors and faster growth rates. At least three new polyps on both zoanthid colonies, brittle stars are reproducing vigorously, amphipods have lost their pale color, and all other phyla are responding positively (Coraline algae, flatworms, anemones). I'm going to wait until I see one more new polyp before I further reduce to 1.016.

Another good indicator is the fact that no new aptasia have been observed yet. Basal laceration in this species accelerates in times of stress.

Enjoy.

#6 Peter

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:22 PM

Hi Jason,

So I'm experimenting with tiny anemones, Xenia, and Zoanthids, which reproduce both s*xually and asexually. I also have tiny micro brittle stars, asterina stars, isopods, and amphipods.


What types of brittle stars, isopods, etc. are you testing?

#7 Isabella

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:10 PM

Cool experiment Jason! It would also be interesting to do the reverse, in which freshwater invertebrates are subjected to gradually increasing levels of salt... just an idea.

#8 jason777

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:08 AM

Cool experiment Jason! It would also be interesting to do the reverse, in which freshwater invertebrates are subjected to gradually increasing levels of salt... just an idea.


I would, but there is no evidence in biology that increased sodium will result in a net fitness gain. In fact, I'm predicting that's why thousands of marine species are now extinct.

"In order to maintain the cell membrane potential, cells keep a low concentration of sodium ions and high levels of potassium ions within the cell (intracellular). The sodium-potassium pump moves 3 sodium ions out and moves 2 potassium ions in, thus in total removing one positive charge carrier from the intracellular space. Please see Mechanism for details.
Not only the mechanism of the sodium-potassium pump alone is responsible for the generation of the resting membrane potential. Also the selective permeability of the cell's plasma membrane for the different Ions plays an important role. All mechanisms involved are explained in the main article on generation of the resting membrane potential."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%2B/K%2B-ATPase


Thanks.

#9 jason777

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:34 AM

Hi Jason,



What types of brittle stars, isopods, etc. are you testing?


Here's a few links for you.

http://en.wikipedia...._%28starfish%29

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Brittle_star

http://www.reefcorne...s/aipatasia.htm

http://www.wetwebmed...nemoniafaqs.htm

They are the usual variety of hitchhikers found on live rock. I also have a small colony of planaria flatworms and I did see a large flatworm crawl out of the rock one night. I haven't seen any sponges yet, but I'm sure there may be a small one in the rock somewhere.

There are thousands of species of isopods, so here's a video I found on youtube with some of the types I have in my tank.



Enjoy.

#10 jason777

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:18 PM

I have new growth on zoa. colonies and many tiny little planula (larval anemones). Generation times are unexpectedly quicker than I thought they would be, so I reduced the specific gravity to 1.016 already.

New growth on one of the zoanthid colonies.

Posted Image


Enjoy.

#11 jason777

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:45 AM

These type of experiments are rare, but I did come across a couple of them. One used both hypersaline (45 PPT) and hyposaline (25 PPT) with sea urchins, but it was only for 5 days. They did get the same results predicted by me, that increased salinity is fatal, but lower salinity resulted in no mortality.


RESULTS

"Echinometra lucunter tolerated a SW salinity
reduction from full-strength SW (35 ppt) down to
25 ppt, with no mortality detected after 5 d. When
the salinity was raised by the same amount, a difference
of 10 g/kg of salt (a 29% change) to 45
ppt, mortality occurred after 2-3 d of exposure.
After 40 h in 45 ppt, all urchins were alive, but their
spines and ambulacral feet had lost their tone, the
peristomial membrane was retracted, and the teeth
of the lantern were more exposed."


http://zoolstud.sini...ls/46.2/203.pdf Click the link to see 10,000 words that you can't pronounce and have no idea what they mean.

Here in an experiment in CRSQ, they are assuming that saltwater oceans existed prior to the flood, but they did get positive results by showing that freshwater is lighter than saltwater in a tank experiment.


Survival Of Freshwater And Saltwater Organisms In A Heterogeneous Flood Model Experiment


E. Norbert Smith, Ph.D and Stephen Hagberg, B.S.


The Noahic flood destroyed all the air breathing animals except those on the ark. No doubt the flood also took a major toll on freshwater and marine organisms due to the turbulence, turbidity, changes in salinity and temperature. Some marine animals survived by simply tolerating changes in salinity. Survival of a marine reef fish, Blue Damsel, Abudefduf uniocellatus, was tested at different rates of freshwater dilution. It was found that the salinity where the fish lost the ability to swim was the same when exposed to dilution rates of 15 0/00/hrs (parts per thousand per hour) and 1.5 0/00/hr but was higher with the slow dilution rate of 0.031 0/00/hr. These data suggest that the marine organisms could not have survived a homogeneous freshwater deluge.

A heterogeneous flood model was set up in a 55-gallon aquarium. A quantity of saltwater 20 cm deep was overlaid with freshwater and the system was exposed to outdoor summertime weather conditions in western Oklahoma. Marine algae (Phaeophyta and Chlorophyta), brine shrimp (Artemia nauplii), a hermit crab and some marine gastropods were introduced into the saltwater portion. A goldfish (Carassius auratus), two mosquito fish (Gambusia affinis), and freshwater plants were introduced into the surface layer. Although some mixing occurred, all the organisms survived four weeks exposure to outdoor conditions suggesting that protected pockets of marine organisms may have survived the flood by being overlaid with freshwater.

And of course, my favorite part of the experiment. Testing the ability of gene expression and protein substitution to change within the biblical timeframe of one year.

Here is a study that evaluated the genes involved in euryhalinity.

Differential gene expression associated with
euryhalinity in sea bream (Sparus sarba)


Deane, Eddie E., and Norman Y. S. Woo. Differential gene
expression associated with euryhalinity in sea bream
(Sparus sarba).
Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol 287: R1054–R1063, 2004.
First published July 8, 2004; doi:10.1152/ajpregu.00347.2004.

Certain fish have the remarkable capability of euryhalinity, being able to
withstand large variations in salinity for indefinite periods. Using the
highly euryhaline species, silver sea bream (Sparus sarba), as an
experimental model, some of the molecular processes involved during
ion regulation (Na-K-ATPase), cytoprotection [heat shock protein
(hsp) 70], and growth (somatotropic axis) were studied. To perform
these studies, seven key genes involved in these processes were
cloned, and the tissue-specific expression profiles in fish adapted to
salinities of 6 parts per thousand (ppt; hypoosmotic), 12 ppt (isoosmotic),
33 ppt (seawater), and 50 ppt (hypersaline) were studied. In
gills, the transcriptional and translational expression profiles of Na-

K-ATPase - and -subunit genes were lowest in isoosmoticadapted
fish, whereas in kidneys the expression of the -subunit
increased in seawater- and hypersaline-adapted groups. The hsp70
multigene family, comprising genes coding for heat shock cognate
(hsc70), inducible heat shock protein (hsp70), and a heat shock
transcription factor (hsf1), was found to be highly upregulated in gills
of seawater- and hypersaline-adapted fish. In liver, hsc70 expression
was lowest in isoosmotic groups, and in kidneys the hsp70 multigene
family remained unchanged over the salinity range tested. The regulation
of the somatotropic axis was studied by measuring pituitary
growth hormone expression and liver IGF-I expression in salinityadapted
fish. The expression amounts of both genes involved in the
somatotropic axis were highest in fish maintained at an isoosmotic
salinity. The results of this study provide new information on key
molecular processes involved in euryhalinity of fish.


http://ajpregu.physi.../R1054.full.pdf

This experiment demonstrates that gene expression in growth hormones was highest in lower salinity (12 PPT), which confirms my prediction that adaptation to saltwater resulted in a net fitness loss.


Enjoy.

#12 jason777

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:25 PM

I further reduced to 1.012 last night. Sadly, I lost my zoanthids during the move. The tiny 8 mm leds were just barely enough light to keep them alive and the added stress killed them. The starfish, anemones, amphipods, etc. are still doing fine. Despite my initial assumptions, the first generation has not died, which is a confirmation that acclimation to NSW levels did not require any amino acid changes.

Enjoy.

#13 Codex

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:59 AM

I applaud you for using the scientific method to investigate a question but the healthy salinity range of each of these organisms is well established. You could simply look up this information, I am sure marine biologists have this information as well as any of the staff at large aquariums responsible for taking care of these organisms. Freshwater and saltwater marine life have ranges of tolerance to salinity, even overlapping in some cases.

#14 Tubal

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:10 PM

I applaud you for using the scientific method to investigate a question but the healthy salinity range of each of these organisms is well established. You could simply look up this information, I am sure marine biologists have this information as well as any of the staff at large aquariums responsible for taking care of these organisms. Freshwater and saltwater marine life have ranges of tolerance to salinity, even overlapping in some cases.


You've totally missed the point, but I don't think you missed but avoided it and its implications.


Amazing work Jason! Simply genius. I am going to do something similar to this soon.

#15 jason777

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:47 PM

I applaud you for using the scientific method to investigate a question but the healthy salinity range of each of these organisms is well established. You could simply look up this information, I am sure marine biologists have this information as well as any of the staff at large aquariums responsible for taking care of these organisms. Freshwater and saltwater marine life have ranges of tolerance to salinity, even overlapping in some cases.


First of all, most of them are only aware of the current conditions that they live in. This is then assumed as their range, since they are not taught by conducting experiments; rather, by observations. Most of them wouldn't even be aware of the hyper/hyposaline experiment I posted earlier in this thread with sea urchins. Modeling past events is usually done by geologists and they are stumped by an ever increasing sodium level that can't be extrapolated back past 60 million years. So, geologists and biologists just pretend that there was always this non existent and non catastrophic equilibrium.

The only reasonable hypothesis is that a lot of sodium must have been deposited all at once during Noah's flood. That not only accounts for the slow annual rates of accumulation, but also the huge amounts of salt deposits that were precipitated out of solution. This process has left behind evidence that is still observable at the bottom of the ocean today.



#16 jason777

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:17 AM

You've totally missed the point, but I don't think you missed but avoided it and its implications.


Amazing work Jason! Simply genius. I am going to do something similar to this soon.


That is great. I'll need someone to carry on this work, since I don't have the resources for a complete test all at once. If any hypothesis is true, then it must account for all of the observations. So, a future experiment with scleractinia will be needed. It is possible that hydrothermal vents produced enough co2 to dissolve massive amounts of aragonite - a sort of natural calcium reactor. But, my initial idea is that it just slowly dissolved and was the natural buffer that God created initially.


Enjoy.

#17 jason777

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:02 AM

Here's my new display tank.

Posted Image



It's a 7.5 gallon Mr. Aqua cube lit by Hydra Aquatics Retina 1 LED. I just finished the stand this morning, so the live rock was in a five gallon bucket for a week and a half. I wanted an awesome piece of rock and the local fish store just happened to have one last piece of Marshall Island live rock in stock. It was literally crawling with life.


Posted Image


Watermelon zoanthids, red rhodactis mushroom, and aptasia anemone all within 2 square inches.

Posted Image


Enjoy.

#18 Tubal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:20 AM

That is great. I'll need someone to carry on this work, since I don't have the resources for a complete test all at once. If any hypothesis is true, then it must account for all of the observations. So, a future experiment with scleractinia will be needed. It is possible that hydrothermal vents produced enough co2 to dissolve massive amounts of aragonite - a sort of natural calcium reactor. But, my initial idea is that it just slowly dissolved and was the natural buffer that God created initially.


Enjoy.

Not only hydrothermal vents but aquatic plants (which would have been prominent after creation) produce co2.
I am going to build later on some tanks specialized for this because I want to do multiple experiments at once. Not only do I think that the water was fresh but it's content was very different. Much richer in nutrients and oxygen, probably warmer too. So I need tools to test these things. If these experiments you and others prove true it can solve many problems in the world today like hunger. Simulating a pre-flood environment in a green house to grow plants faster, larger and healthier.

Have you see the experiments of this man? http://keelynet.com/biology/baugh.htm
I want to do something similar but I need specialized equipment that I'm going to have to build, not an issue.

Indeed when God made things in the beginning it was VERY GOOD!.. now atheists can't say creationists haven't done anything good for science :P

#19 jason777

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:53 PM

I lost all of my starfish at 1.010. I'll need to repeat the experiment since it coincided with an increase in phosphate levels. I now have an accurate phosphate test kit and granular ferric oxide to help keep levels low.

The preliminary results are conclusive that marine invertebrates could have survived a much lower salinity than previously known or acknowledged by uniformitairians.

Enjoy.




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