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Two Gospels Revisited...


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#241 MamaElephant

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:22 AM

ME, perhaps you forgot what you posted in Post 105: "TeeJay's assertion that Peter wrote letters to the circumcision followers and, in contrast, Paul wrote his letters to those under the gospel of grace has been proven wrong."

That's right. I believe originally Peter wrote to Jews and he told those Jews to listen to Paul who had also written them letters. Do I need to do the extra work to post the scripture again? Or is 3 or more times sufficient?

#242 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:35 AM

It's a sad and sorry day that a member has to tell the Site Owner and Administrator how to behave in a discussion!


Will stating this publicly and repeatedly bring glory to God? Does not God command us to forgive those who have trespassed against us?

#243 Teejay

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:38 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1332415336' post='82181']
That's right. I believe originally Peter wrote to Jews and he told those Jews to listen to Paul who had also written them letters. Do I need to do the extra work to post the scripture again? Or is 3 or more times sufficient?
[/quote]

ME, there is no wiggling out of this. In 2 Peter 3:15, Peter is talking to Jews "about" Paul.

Again, here's what you posted in Post 105: "TJ's assertion that Peter wrote letters to the circumcision followers an, in contrast, Paul wrote his letters to those under the gospel of grace has been proven wrong."

But then you write that you came to this debate beleiving that Peter wrote to Jews.


Then why did you write Posts 105 and 28 and refuse my many posts requesting you to humbly agree with the scripture I posted showing that Peter wrote to Jews? I would like you to answer.


ME, you're a new Christian, and I glad that you have a yearning to learn about God's word. But I must be "blunt" as Fred put it. If you are to reach Truth, you are going to have to overcome your aversion to accepting anything TeeJay posts without first considering if it's true. And I don't want you to accept anything I, or Fred, or Ikester posts unless it agrees with God's word or is logical. God is the Source of all logic and rational thinking. If someone presents an argument that is illogical, then it can't be what God would think. For Jesus said that "I am the Truth." One can't be illogical and espouse truth at the same time. That's not logical possible.


I am going to back off from you. Stripe seems to be making more progress than I. And from what I have read in Stripe's posts, he seems to be on target. So please continue to dialogue with Stripe. But don't accept what Stripe "thinks" but accept what he teaches if it agrees with God's word.

But I still ask that you consider a humble admission that you were wrong in Posts 105 and 28. There are people on this website who argue just to argue and will never admit to the simplest self-evident truths. Truth can't be reached unless one opens his heart to receive it. The strongest force that keeps men from accepting the truth that God exists is not their brains; it's their hearts. Jesus taught that "men's hearts are deceitful above all things." The great Christian apologists Dr. Banhsen and Van Till wrote that men are capable of self-deception even. But Paul wrote of self-deception first in Romans 1:18-22).

God bless, TeeJay

#244 Teejay

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:45 AM

[quote] name='Remnant of The Abyss' timestamp='1332423328' post='82192']
Will stating this publicly and repeatedly bring glory to God? Does not God command us to forgive those who have trespassed against us?
[/quote]

RoTA,

No. God does not command us to forgive those who trespass against us. He commands us to "rebuke" him.

TeeJay

#245 Salsa

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:16 AM

But Paul says that we are justified by faith plus nothing.


Paul didn't exactly say "faith plus nothing". He said "faith apart from the law" or "faith apart from works":

"no one is justified before God by the law", because, "The righteous will live by faith." Gal 3:11

So what is living by faith? Is it active or passive?

If we read Hebrews 11 then I think we arrive at the conclusion that faith expresses itself in different ways by different people. It involves understanding, offering, seeking, building, worshipping, conquering kingdoms, administering justice, shutting the mouths of lions, quenching the fury of the flames, escaping the edge of the sword and pleasing God.

All these people were still living by faith when they died.

Legalism is working with the intention to attain righteousness, but for those who live by faith the works they do are an effect of that faith.

Then I know not what else to say. Jesus said in response to the question of salvation to "Obey the commandments".


Which ones?

That was the question that Jesus was asked when he gave his response. I guarantee you, no one will be condemned for obeying the following commandments:

'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

Jesus said that all the Law and the Prophets hang on the commandments to love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Paul said:

"The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

And

"The entire law is summed up in a single command: Love your neighbor as yourself."

James said:

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

John wrote:

"A new command I give you: Love one another."

Again, no one who obeys these commands will ever be condemned!

#246 Salsa

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:28 AM

ME, there is no wiggling out of this. In 2 Peter 3:15, Peter is talking to Jews "about" Paul.


There is no wiggling out of the fact that Peter is talking to the Jews about how Paul wrote to them:

"even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

#247 Salsa

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:50 AM

RoTA,

No. God does not command us to forgive those who trespass against us. He commands us to "rebuke" him.

TeeJay


And if he just turns around and calls you a "hothead" when you do?

#248 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:54 AM

RoTA,

No. God does not command us to forgive those who trespass against us. He commands us to "rebuke" him.

TeeJay


I think this is quite clear. If we want forgiveness from Him, then we are to forgive those who trespass against us:


The Lord's Prayer

Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,

The power, and the glory,

For ever and ever.

Amen.


Rebuking is one thing. I agree with rebuking. This has gone beyond rebuking as it has dragged out over the course of several days. If one believes in forgiveness they might as well forgive now, rather than later, for the longer they wait in this pursuit, one that does not bring Glory to God, the more damage that is done.

#249 Teejay

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:56 AM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1332426537' post='82200']
There is no wiggling out of the fact that Peter is talking to the Jews about how Paul wrote to them:

"even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"
[/quote]
[quote name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1332426537' post='82200']
There is no wiggling out of the fact that Peter is talking to the Jews about how Paul wrote to them:

"even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"
[/quote]

UD, Does what you post here prove that Peter's two letters are to Gentiles? I know that somewhere in your gene pool there is one gene left that will allow you to accept just one simple, self-evident, irrefragable, truth that can't possibly be denied. You can't possibly be totally devoid of that gene, otherwise God could not hold you responsible for rejecting truth: You "were born that way."

After all that Stripe, Fred, and I have posted, you still don't get it. Paul witnessed to Jews, Jews, Jews, Jews AND and AND and AND Gentiles, Gentiles, Gentiles. Jews saved after Israel was cut off and Paul was commissioned are saved under Paul's gospel of grace. They can't possibly be saved under Israel's covenant of circumcision because Israel was cut off, cut off, cut off, cut off, cut off.

Why can't you understand this?. I know why. You're devoid of that gene that will allow you to open your heart and accept truth. Truth to you is like the Cross is to Dracula. You hiss and pull your cloak over our head so you don't have to face it.

Fred will probably kick me off, but I can't help it. You have tried my patience to the point where I have to take the gloves off and go bare knuckles.

TeeJay

#250 Salsa

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:03 AM

UD, Does what you post here prove that Peter's two letters are to Gentiles? I know that somewhere in your gene pool there is one gene left that will allow you to accept just one simple, self-evident, irrefragable, truth that can't possibly be denied. You can't possibly be totally devoid of that gene, otherwise God could not hold you responsible for rejecting truth: You "were born that way."

After all that Stripe, Fred, and I have posted, you still don't get it. Paul witnessed to Jews, Jews, Jews, Jews AND and AND and AND Gentiles, Gentiles, Gentiles. Jews saved after Israel was cut off and Paul was commissioned are saved under Paul's gospel of grace. They can't possibly be saved under Israel's covenant of circumcision because Israel was cut off, cut off, cut off, cut off, cut off.

Why can't you understand thi?. I know why. You're devoid of that gene that will allow you to open your heart and accept truth. Truth to you is like the Cross is to Dracula. You hiss and pull your cloak over our head so you don't have to face it.

Fred will probably kick me off, but I can't help it. You have tried my patience to the point where I have to take the gloves off and go bare knuckles.

TeeJay


Teejay, If you read what I wrote you would notice that I haven't said anything about who Peters letters were addressed to. I simply showed you from Peters letter here that Paul addressed Jews. That's all.

#251 MamaElephant

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:11 AM

UD, He did it for every man who was ever saved by law keeping and works, which includes all men saved prior to Paul's Gospel of Grace. I'm getting tired so I'm not going to give the exact reference but Peter writes that they hand to "to endure to the end." Did anyone ever make perfect? No. But they had to give it their best shot and all they had to give. It's much like you hire the neighbor boy to cut your grass. He's a teen and he is not going to do a perfect job. But he works hard, does his best, comes to you all sweaty and tired, and you judge his work, add a little grace, and pay him. But if you give him the money as gift, you can't then tell him he has to earn the gift by cutting your grass. But if a Jew saved under Peter just presumptiously decides, "what the heck. Jesus said that He was coming back soon. Where is He? I'm not going to kill myself. Who needs it?" But Peter warned that He would come as a thief in the night when we least expected and when the master returns and finds His unprofitable servant, drinking, and parting..." Of course, Jesus was talking to Jews in Israel and the coming kingdom.

Jesus added grace to a Jew who did his best when he died: "Well done good and faithful servant."

Under the gospel of circumcision, the whole law must be kept--"the weightier matters without leaving the lesser undone." No law could be presumptiously ignored.

Actually, Jesus' fulfilling the whole law is not contingent on whether we believe in Him or not. But for a Jew in Israel during the time of Christ under the gospel of circumcision, circumcision was a cutting off of the flesh. Jesus Himself was physically circumcised on the eighth day. Failure to do so was a death penalty. After working with Moses for eighty years, God almost killed Moses for not circumcising his son by his Midionite wife Ziporrah. What you quote is true for us under Paul, but it was not true for a Jew 2,000 years ago under Peter.

If this is as Teejay says, then why was Peter writing to Jews and telling them to listen to Paul's writings! Was he trying to condemn them?

#252 Teejay

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1332427816' post='82201']
And if he just turns around and calls you a "hothead" when you do?
[/quote]

UD, you need so much teaching, I don't know where to start. If you are wrongly sinned against by your brother, you are to rebuke him, and If, if, if, if, if, if, if, if (got it?), IF he repents, forgive him" (Luke 17:3). But before you rebuke your brother, you had better examine your position and your brother's position through God and His word to be sure that you are righteously rebuking him.

When I get rebuked by someone who is not my friend or family member, I weigh and consider more seriously what he says. Why? Because sometimes your enemies will tell you the truth about yourself where as a friend will not, fearing he will hurt your feelings. Most of the time Truth hurts. Truth is harder to accept than falsehoods. Why? Because when we accept truth, most of the time we have to admit that what we originally believed was a lie and we "are wrong." No one likes to be wrong. And we certainly do not automatically love those who prove us wrong.

This is why God's miracles did not convince anyone in Israel that Jesus was the Messiah. Miracles shove the truth of God in their faces and prove them wrong. In the cities where Jesus did most of His miracles, they hated and totally rejected Him. "We have no king by Caesar," the crowds shouted.

In answer to your question: If you are right, and you rebuke him, and he does not repent, then you are forbidded by Jesus to forgive him. But before you rebuke him, you had better do some self-examination to determine if you have a log in your own eye before you try to get the speck out of your brother's eye.

TeeJay

#253 Teejay

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:33 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1332429096' post='82207']
If this is as Teejay says, then why was Peter writing to Jews and telling them to listen to Paul's writings! Was he trying to condemn them?
[/quote]

ME, the reason you have not grasped this yet is that instead of taking a deep breath and read, read, read, read what is actually written by Fred, Stripe, and me, you are too busy searching to find Scripture that shows us we are wrong. I asked you back a ways to role play and instead of automatically assuming that we are wrong before you start your quest, assume that we are just possibly right and look for those scriptures.

In answer to your question, "condemn" is the wrong word, "Admonish," "teach," "guide" would be more better. After Israel was cut off, cut off, cut off (including the Twelve, including the Twelve, including the Twelve), anyone saved (Jews or Gentiles, Jews or Gentiles, Jews or Gentiles, males or females males or females, males or females, slaves or freemen, slaves or freemen, slaves or freemen) were saved under Paul's gospel of grace, gospel of grace, gospel of grace, gospel of grace. Consider also, that Peter wrote this after he had made a deal with Paul in Galatians 2:7-9. And Peter's letter was written after Pau "rebuked him publically and to his face." Peter admitted he was wrong, and obviously repented. Otherwise he could not have written that verse to help Paul in his ministry. Peter was telling Jews who were saved under Paul to listen to Paul. Peter was telling them that Paul was legit. Luke was a circumcision apostle who helped Paul in his ministry. There were other circumcision disciples who were saved under Peter who worked with Paul. But they helped Paul; they did not teach Paul's disciples to put themselves under Peter.


TeeJay

#254 Stripe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:40 AM

Does not God command us to forgive those who have trespassed against us?

Only after they repent. :)

#255 Stripe

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:01 AM

Paul didn't exactly say "faith plus nothing". He said "faith apart from the law" or "faith apart from works":

Uh... Yeah. My paraphrase is legitimate. Paul said our faith will save us. Jesus said to obey the law.

If you believe the conditions changed sometime between the law being given to Moses and today, then the difference between Paul and Jesus should narrow down the timeframe for that change, right?

Do you think anything has changed?

All these people were [u]still living by faith when they died

Everyone who has ever been saved or will ever be saved will be saved because of their faith in God. Finding people saved by faith throughout history isn't helping this discussion. What you have to do is understand that, throughout history, God has changed His instructions to us on how we are to express that faith.

That was the question that Jesus was asked when he gave his response. I guarantee you, no one will be condemned for obeying the following commandments:

And nor will anyone be condemned for not obeying them. :)

People are condemned because they reject Jesus as Lord and saviour. We are taught this by Paul because before Paul started teaching it, the law was in effect. Which makes sense because, for all but a few years, nobody knew who Jesus was nor the plan God had for our salvation - bar the clues that might have been gleaned from scripture.

Upon the fact of Jesus arrival, death and resurrection and Israel's rejection of their God and King, the plan was changed. Jesus gave to Paul a mystery - a new gospel. And Paul taught that gospel. Christians today need to understand the history of what they believe and rightly divide between the law and grace.

#256 Teejay

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:58 PM

Hello all,

Before Ikester and Fred ban me from this site, I am going to put myself in time-out. I’m losing it, and I don’t want to take out my impatience on anyone who does not want to accept or grasp this concept. In parting, I want to leave you all with something to think about. For anyone who is staring to grasp this concept, please refer your questions to Stripe or Fred. I can also be contacted by private email if you have any questions. I will be glad to answer. Now for my parting words:

God’s people are frequently referred to as His house. The specific rules for His house, at any given time, are His House rules. The Greek language has a compound word pronounced oy-kon-om-ee’-ah which translates into English as economy. It can be understood better as “house rules.” Translators accurately translate it as dispensation. Strong defines oy-kon-om-ee’-ah, as used in the Bible, as “administration of a household or an estate, dispensation, stewardship.” Through the Bible, God has changed His house rules, or dispensation.

One can’t read the first two chapters of Galatians and not see that Paul claims that he did not get his gospel from Peter or any man. He got it directly from Jesus Christ. Paul is adamant that he did not get his gospel from men but from God. Does Paul make this clear in any of his other letters? Let’s look:

“For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner for you Gentiles—if indeed you have heard of THE DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD WHICH WAS GIVEN TO ME FOR YOU” (Eph. 3:12).

“… for the sake of His Body, which is the church, of which I BECAME A MINISTER according to the stewardship from God [dispensation] which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now [NOW, NOW, NOW, NOW] has been revealed to His saints” (Col. 1:24-26). To show that Paul’s gospel was a mystery never before revealed, also see Col. 6:19.

Paul repeatedly claims that God gave him the “dispensation” for the Body. God based this dispensation on grace alone and not the law. Today believers live under this dispensation of grace. Hence, not surprisingly, Paul closely identifies the gospel he preached with himself. Note Paul’s terminology in the following passages:

“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to MY GOSPEL and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation OF THE MYSTERY WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET since the world began” (Rom. 16:25).

[the law is not for believers vv. 8-10] according to the GLORIOUS GOSPEL of the blessed God which WAS COMMITTED TO MY TRUST” (1 Tim. 1:11).

“Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL” 2 Tim. 2:8).

“… God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL” (Rom. 2:16).

“[Woe is unto me, if I preach not THE GOSPEL! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, A DISPENSATION OF THE GOSPEL IS COMMITTED UNTO ME” (1 Cor. 9:16-17

If Galatians 2:7-9 was the only verses that claimed that there were two gospels, then there would be room for doubt. But there is a ton of evidence to support this concept and it has been provided by me, Stripe, and Fred. If what Paul is claiming here is true, then we can expect one final conclusive piece of evidence: Paul should be the FIRST man saved under this new dispensation and he should be the first member of the Body of Christ. And this is what he claims:

“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me FIRST Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, AS A PATTERN to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life” (1 Tim. 1:15-16)

The first man in the kingdom of God was King Saul OF THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN. The first man in the Body of Christ was Saul (later Paul) OF THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN. The first Saul started out under the law and ended up committing suicide and is in Hell. The second Saul started out under the law, but ended up being saved by grace and one of the most esteemed men in the Bible. Thank you, God, for delivering me from the law by which I was condemned.

Now I don’t expect UD to accept any of these plainly written verses. He will re-interpret them to suit his position. But in parting I want to at least give him an uncomfortable kidney stone that will not pass until he accepts Galatians 2:7-9 as plainly written.

Me, I pray that you will carefully READ what's here and consider if my Scriptural proof is true and if I am logical before doing backflips and contortions to avoid them just because TeeJay posted them. Just close your eyes and pretend Ikester posted them..

TeeJay


#257 MamaElephant

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:40 PM

ME, the reason you have not grasped this yet is that instead of taking a deep breath and read, read, read, read what is actually written by Fred, Stripe, and me, you are too busy searching to find Scripture that shows us we are wrong.

What you fail to realize is that I have a natural schedule of Bible reading and study. When I rely on God to teach me and show me the answers He is faithful to His promise that the Holy Spirit will teach me. I don't have to busy myself searching for these things.

#258 MamaElephant

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:45 PM

When we separate these two gospels, all doctrine disputes disappear. Under the gospel of circumcision, where law keeping and good works were required, one could not possibly know if they were saved. All was contingent and future. Under the gospel of grace, your salvation (present) is KNOWING that you are saved (future). If you don't know you're saved, then you are not saved, for salvation by grace requires faith plus nothing. Make sense?

So what is written in the Bible cannon that was written under the "gospel of circumcision" that we need to separate out and realize does not apply to us?

#259 jason

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:52 PM

sheesh jesus is the torah incarnate and much more all that he taught from the torah and that was also the part of jermemiah 31 that was fulfilled in his death. why then does the torah have the jews do things that make the very symbol of the cross when its all about isreal. ye err the bible is about the cross and what it does not some nation of god kids

#260 Salsa

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 04:16 AM

Paul said our faith will save us. Jesus said to obey the law.


Of course. Both are true statements, and the one does not nullify the other. If someone obeys the law it will save him. If someone lives by faith it will save him. The problem is that no one was capable of obeying the entire law.

Obviously, until Jesus died and was resurrected it wouldn't make much sense for him to demand of someone that they "believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead", and that I think answers your question as to what changed - Jesus died and was raised from the dead.

Jesus had to die before certain things could happen:

"I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." John 12:24

After Jesus was resurrected the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit and started to obey God in the "new way of the Spirit" rather than the "old way of the written code". Rather than studying scripture to see what they were supposed to do to please God they let the Spirit lead them. Consequently:

"those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God" Romans 8:14

and

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law." Gal 5:18

This indicates that "faith plus nothing" is not entirely correct. We are justified "apart from the law" by being led by the spirit.

And nor will anyone be condemned for not obeying them.


If you are not led by the Spirit then you are still under the law and will be condemned as a lawbreaker. If I was constantly breaking these commandments then I would certainly question whether or not I am in Christ. Paul challenged us to test this:

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?" 2 Cor 13:5

This is important:

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Rom 8:5-9

A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Anyone who is in Christ will produce friut in keeping with righteousness.
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