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Two Gospels Revisited...


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#81 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1331810796' post='81697']
You mean agree with your interpretation of the Bible. Nice try.

And by the way since you think Holy Spirit wisdom that is not approved by "you" first is foolish, most mean you think you are above the Holy Spirit in wisdom. Now that answers a lot of questions as to why you debate the way you do.
[/quote]

Ikester,

Sometimes ME leads me to believe that we don't have to read the Bible and we will receive God's wisdom by osmosis. Jesus did tell His apostles that He would send the Holy Spirit to give them inspiration, revelation, and guidance. Paul got all of his knowledge from the Holy Spirit, for example. But at the time Jesus said that, there was no New Testament writings for them to refer to. Today, we have the whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. We need to "study to show ourselves approved" and not be waiting around for the Holy Spirit to spoon-feed us.

I know that what I'm trying to teach here is 180 degrees from what you have been taught. And if you let it upset you personally, this will keep you from examing what I say to see if it is true. I admit I have become impatient with some on this thread. But it's because I have to explain and answer what I have previously covered. And this old man is getting cantankerous in his old age.

If I have been impatient and offended you, I am sorry.

TeeJay

#82 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:56 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331836079' post='81723']
I will make it simple: "What works shall we do?" Jesus said "believe on him whom he hath sent."
[/quote]

ME,

After this Jew accepted Jesus Christ, did he have to keep the Sabbath?

TeeJay

#83 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:36 PM

You first.

Was Paul under the gospel of circumcision Teejay?

Define "Gentile" please.



#84 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:44 PM

Sometimes ME leads me to believe that we don't have to read the Bible and we will receive God's wisdom by osmosis.

Well I am glad I cleared that up. I speak of the Spirit because as a Jehovah's Witness I had the Bible, but I did not have God's Spirit teaching me what it meant and I didn't have God's Spirit bringing me strength or joy or peace.

But yes, I have at times emphasized the Spirit more than the Bible, and that is wrong because God says that we need both and that we need to test the spirits. 1 John 4

You can see however that I rarely have any posts that do not include scripture...

It is the Bible and taking God at his word, his written word that freed me from a cult and brought me into the freedom of Christ and His glorious love. When I ask God a question I go to His written word and ask that His Spirit directs me and teaches me while I read it.

I also wrote up a list of Christian Essentials on a facebook group that I moderate, and this is the first one:
A Christian will continually read and meditate on the written word of God and uphold this written word as truth. Acts 7:38; Romans 15:4; Psalm 1:2; Joshua 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21 ^_^
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#85 Salsa

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:57 PM

Yes. But you will not find "righteousness apart from works in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, or Revelation even. Only Paul writes of this.


Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are the gospel accounts of Jesus, not doctrine addressed directly to the church. Peters letter is addressed to "strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia" and James to "the twelve tribes scattered among the nations"

Why are these letters "to the Jews" addressed to believers scattered among the nations, rather than in Israel?

And Revelation??? Did you just throw this one in for effect?

Look, Teejay, the first three chapters of Revelation were addressed to the gentile churches! Instead of telling them to relax, take it easy, don't worry about mowing the lawn because the Jews will do that, several of them are told to get their act together!

This nonsense about different gospels cannot be found in ANY of these books!

UD, there are some reasons for this. God cut off Israel. The Twelve were in a maintenance mode; Paul was in an evangelistic/growth mode. The Twelve's program was no longer in effect; Paul's was. And the reason you don't find what Paul wrote in what the Twelve wrote is that what Paul wrote he got directly from God and it was different. Read chapters 1 and 2 of Galatians for a start.


I totally agree Teejay, and I want to repeat what I said earlier on. I realize fully that Isreal as a "physical" nation was cut off. Most of the NT was written at a time when one age was ending and a new one was dawning, Which means that we have to take this into account. But that is basically my point. You cannot look at the different circumstances surrounding these events and suggest that they represent different truths. And please don't imply that I haven't read Galatians 1 and 2. Don't be silly about this. That kind of remark will not gain you any points in this discussion.

Jesus and all the circumcision apostles mentioned it. You must be reading a different Bible. Whenever Jesus was asked how to be saved, He answered, "Keek the law." A Jew under the gospel of circumcision had to baptize, circumcise, keep the Sabbaths, keep the feasts. This was not optional. Violation of them was a death penalty. Will you admit that if these were "perpetual" laws for Israel, then they were not under the gospel of grace where there is no law or works?


That Jesus mentioned it is NO surprise! He was the author of the law in the first place! And why was He the author of the law? Because during the age that the law prevailed, including Jesus ministry, it was used as a schoolmaster to teach them that righteousness could never be achieved through their efforts to follow the law. Even Isaiah exclaimed that their works were "filthy rags".

Are you trying to say that the Jews, for some obscure reason, need to present filthy rags plus faith in order to please God?

Yes. Because in the Body of Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. Why would Paul write this? Because when a Jew was circumcised on the eighth day, he was under the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision. (Jesus placed Himself under it when He was circumcised.) A female came under it when she was born to a Jewish man or married one. A Gentile came under this covenant when he became a proselyte Jew. He then had to get circumcised and keep the law. A slave came under it when he had a Jewish master.

But Paul writes that we, in the Body of Christ, we can approach God individuals without having to go through Israel. "We can come boldly to the throne of God," Paul writes. If I meet a Jew who tells me he is a Messanic Jew or a Jewish Christian, I politely correct him that he is simply a Christian and a member of the Body f Christ where there are no Jews or Gentiles. The nation of Israel was corporate or national. The Body of Christ is international composed of members.


So what you are basically saying is that a Jew who is a Messianic Jew or Jewish Christian is in the Body of Christ, exempt from the law since there is no Jew or Gentile. Sounds like you are saying exactly what I have been saying all along!! There is only one gospel - the one that grants us the possibilty to be born again and become a part of the Body of Christ rather than Jews or gentiles. In fact, it seems like the rest of your post is agreeing with this too. You haven't been posting like this before! Are you changing your position in order to get around the points that have been made here and pretending that no one will notice?

UD, I posted to you once before that your worldview will not allow you to see the truth that I am posting.


And I responeded by asking you how this applies to me and not to you.. without getting any answer!

So again I ask you the same thing. But to start with, tell me exactly what my "worldview" is!

I must also remind you that only Peter was commanded by God to visit a Gentile. The others were commanded by God to go only to Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria. Their first mission was to persuade Israel as a nation to accept their risen Messiah. Realize that Israel had already rejected Jesus when He walked among them and did miracles.


Again this "Realize that Isreal had rejected Jesus" kind of argument that simply leaves me baffled. I challenged you several posts ago to show me anywhere where I was denying this, and rather than accepting that challenge, you continue with this strawman.

Once again I have to remind you what this discussion is all about - the existence of two gospels! A physical nation that gets cut off is not the basis for a "gospel"!

In fact, when the other apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that Peter had gone to a Gentile, "they contended with him" (Acts 11:1-2), saying, "You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them (Acts 11:3). But it gets worser. Peter goes on to tell them that the Holy Spirit fell on them WITHOUT THEIR BEING CIRCUMCISED." God did this to show Peter that He was bypassing Israel and their circumcision requirement to approach Gd.


This I don't understand at all. What is your point?

#86 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:02 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331847407' post='81739']
You first.
[/quote]

ME, You will not believe me if I told you. Why don't you see what Paul has to say about it in Galatians 2:7-9. Read these verses and tell me which gospel you think he is under.

What's a Gentile. Five pages into this debate and you don't know who a Gentile is? Do you have a dictionary?

TeeJay

#87 Salsa

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

Today, we have the whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. We need to "study to show ourselves approved" and not be waiting around for the Holy Spirit to spoon-feed us.


This is really sad, but it illustrates exactly what has been happening during the last few days during this discussion.

Yes, we have the whole Bible. From Genesis to Revelation. But what does the "whole Bible" teach us?

It teaches us that human effort counts for nothing. That we can study our guts out and yet remain blind. That we can be always learning but never acknowledging the truth. That we can have a form of godliness and yet deny God's power.

I would rather be spoon-fed by the Holy Spirit any day than to rely on my own ability to understand scripture.

You are mistaken Teejay. Badly mistaken.
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#88 Salsa

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:22 PM

ME, You will not believe me if I told you. Why don't you see what Paul has to say about it in Galatians 2:7-9. Read these verses and tell me which gospel you think he is under.

What's a Gentile. Five pages into this debate and you don't know who a Gentile is? Do you have a dictionary?

TeeJay


Nowhere in Galatians does it say which gospel Paul was under. Please respond to the question without being evasive!
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#89 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:47 PM

Teejay, If you answer my questions we can see how your responses weigh against scripture. Isn't that what we all want here?

Since we are both Christians, we should endeavor not to agree with each other or debate just to win a debate; rather we should endeavor to agree with God. And I submit that any argument that agrees with God is the true argument.



#90 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:52 PM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331848632' post='81742']
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are the gospel accounts of Jesus, not doctrine addressed directly to the church. Peters letter is addressed to "strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia" and James to "the twelve tribes scattered among the nations"[/quote]

UD, we've been through this already. I showed you that Peter was writing to "pilgrime of the dispersion" which are Jews. It was the Jews that were scattered because of persecution. No one in Galatia, Corinth, or any of Paul's churches were scattered. Now if you want to be willfully ignorant of this fact, so be it.

[quote]Why are these letters "to the Jews" addressed to believers scattered among the nations, rather than in Israel?[/quote]

These were believing Jews. Paul is the "apostle to the Gentiles." UD, I think I now know your strategy. You can't defeat me with facts, so you think that you can tire me out because I'm old.

[quote]And Revelation??? Did you just throw this one in for effect?

Look, Teejay, the first three chapters of Revelation were addressed to the gentile churches! Instead of telling them to relax, take it easy, don't worry about mowing the lawn because the Jews will do that, several of them are told to get their act together![/quote]

You could not be more wrong if you were a Mormon. "John to the seven churches which are in Asia" (Rev.1:4). Why in the world do you think these are Gentile churches? In Jesus' letter to the church at Pergamos: "I have a few things against you beccause you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, to eat things sacrificed to idols..." (Ref. 2:14). Contrast this with Paul's teaching to the Gentiles in 1 Corinthians 8. Paul said we can eat meat sacrificed to idols. Who's right, Jesus or Paul. Both are. Jesus is talking to Jews under the gospel of circumcision. Paul is talking to Gentiles under the gospel of uncircumcision. And if you argue with me that Revelation is written to Jews, which you will because you can't help yourself: "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those who say THEY ARE JEWS and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9)

[quote]This nonsense about different gospels cannot be found in ANY of these books![/quote]

Because you can't see this simply truth does not make it false.

[quote]I totally agree Teejay, and I want to repeat what I said earlier on. I realize fully that Isreal as a "physical" nation was cut off. Most of the NT was written at a time when one age was ending and a new one was dawning, Which means that we have to take this into account. But that is basically my point. You cannot look at the different circumstances surrounding these events and suggest that they represent different truths. And please don't imply that I haven't read Galatians 1 and 2. Don't be silly about this. That kind of remark will not gain you any points in this discussion.[/quote]

If Israel's covenant was not cut off WITH ISRAEL, you would have to get circumcised, observe Sabbath laws, get baptized, observe the feasts, and worry about eating meat offered to idols. There is not getting around or behind this. You admit that Israel was cut off but you will not admit that Israel was under the law. For some strange reason you think that the Body of Christ and Israel are the same. They are not!



[quote]That Jesus mentioned it is NO surprise! He was the author of the law in the first place! And why was He the author of the law? Because during the age that the law prevailed, including Jesus ministry, it was used as a schoolmaster to teach them that righteousness could never be achieved through their efforts to follow the law. Even Isaiah exclaimed that their works were "filthy rags"[/quote]

The law being used as a "schoolmaster" is mentioned by Paul. But then he goes on to say that once we are saved by grace, we are delivered from the law. And you are right that man can't keep the law perfectly. But the Jews had to try to keep the law and God added grace to their works. What can't you understand about this. If you can show me where Jesus told them that they no longer hand to keep the law and do good works, I'm all ears. You wo't be able to find. In the sense of salvation, the word "grace" can't be found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Try again..

[quote]Are you trying to say that the Jews, for some obscure reason, need to present filthy rags plus faith in order to please God?[/quote]

And are you trying to say that God's law is filthy rags or man's failure to keep His law?





[quote]So what you are basically saying is that a Jew who is a Messianic Jew or Jewish Christian is in the Body of Christ, exempt from the law since there is no Jew or Gentile. Sounds like you are saying exactly what I have been saying all along!! There is only one gospel - the one that grants us the possibilty to be born again and become a part of the Body of Christ rather than Jews or gentiles. In fact, it seems like the rest of your post is agreeing with this too. You haven't been posting like this before! Are you changing your position in order to get around the points that have been made here and pretending that no one will notice?[/quote]

But you admitted that Israel was cut off? And I did not say that in the Body of Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile. God says that in HIs word. You just don't agree with Him. If Israel had not been cut off, there would be no Body of Christ or a gospel of grace. Why in the world can't you see that? Or are you just arguing to be arguing?



[quote]And I responeded by asking you how this applies to me and not to you.. without getting any answer!

So again I ask you the same thing. But to start with, tell me exactly what my "worldview" is![/quote]

Your worldview is exactly the opposite of my worldview. You will view any evidence present through your worldview. I will do the same through mine. But both our worldviews can be wrong, but both can't be right. For it is either true that there are two gospels or it is true that there is only one gospel. But if your worldview is false, it is not possible for you to see truth--no matter how much evidence is presented to you. My worldview is true, and therefore I can see what is true. I have presented a mountain of evidence to you to show that there were two gospels. You have accepted none of it. Your worldview will not allow you to.



[quote]Again this "Realize that Isreal had rejected Jesus" kind of argument that simply leaves me baffled. I challenged you several posts ago to show me anywhere where I was denying this, and rather than accepting that challenge, you continue with this strawman.

Once again I have to remind you what this discussion is all about - the existence of two gospels! A physical nation that gets cut off is not the basis for a "gospel"![/quote]

I know you know that Israel rejeted their risen Christ. But you deny the ramification of what happened because of their rejection and their being cut off. God not only cut off Israel; He also cut off their circumcision covenant and their promised kingdom.


[quote]This I don't understand at all. What is your point?
[/quote]

I know you don't understand. Your knowledge of the Bible is serious lacking. I showed you this to show you that the Twelve did not fulfill their great commission and that we can't possibly be under the covenant that Jesus gave to Israel. We are under Paul and not Peter.

TeeJay

#91 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:58 PM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331849840' post='81744']
This is really sad, but it illustrates exactly what has been happening during the last few days during this discussion.

Yes, we have the whole Bible. From Genesis to Revelation. But what does the "whole Bible" teach us?[/quote]

The Bible teaches us more that you can absorb and then some. There is no end to the gems that can be mined out of it.

[quote]It teaches us that human effort counts for nothing. That we can study our guts out and yet remain blind. That we can be always learning but never acknowledging the truth. That we can have a form of godliness and yet deny God's power.[/quote]

This is hyperbole that is simply not true. Are you speaking for yourself?

[quote]I would rather be spoon-fed by the Holy Spirit any day than to rely on my own ability to understand scripture.

You are mistaken Teejay. Badly mistaken.
[/quote]

Why would God tell us to study to show ourselves approved and then tell you not to rely on your own ability to understand scripture? What you wrote here is simply nonsense.

TeeJay

#92 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:00 PM

I know you don't understand. Your knowledge of the Bible is serious lacking. I showed you this to show you that the Twelve did not fulfill their great commission and that we can't possibly be under the covenant that Jesus gave to Israel. We are under Paul and not Peter.

The post that UD was quoting made no sense because it did not support your claims over UDs. It is like an evolutionist showing us an example of Natural Selection and thinking his argument is supported.

#93 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:04 PM

This is really sad, but it illustrates exactly what has been happening during the last few days during this discussion.

Yes, we have the whole Bible. From Genesis to Revelation. But what does the "whole Bible" teach us?

It teaches us that human effort counts for nothing. That we can study our guts out and yet remain blind. That we can be always learning but never acknowledging the truth. That we can have a form of godliness and yet deny God's power.

I would rather be spoon-fed by the Holy Spirit any day than to rely on my own ability to understand scripture.

You are mistaken Teejay. Badly mistaken.


This is hyperbole that is simply not true. Are you speaking for yourself?


Why would God tell us to study to show ourselves approved and then tell you not to rely on your own ability to understand scripture? What you wrote here is simply nonsense.

TeeJay


Here ya go:

Proverbs 3:5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

2 Corinthians 3:15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit:

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I wonder why I can find a scripture for everything? Must be because I ignore the Bible.

#94 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:05 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331851677' post='81746'] Teejay, If you answer my questions we can see how your responses weigh against scripture. Isn't that what we all want here? [/quote]

ME, you quoted circumcision verses from Jesus to refute my argument that the Jews had to do works and keep the law in addition to accepting Jesus. You argued that the Jew could be saved by accepting Jesus alone.

So I asked: If a Jew accepted Jesus Christ under the gospel of circumcision, would he have to keep the Sabbath? You don't want to answer because your answer will refute your own argument. Jesus often used this tactic on the Pharisees when He would answer their questions meant to trap Him with a question that they could not answer.

So please answer my question.

TeeJay

#95 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:08 PM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331850158' post='81745'] Nowhere in Galatians does it say which gospel Paul was under. Please respond to the question without being evasive! [/quote]

ME,

Are you sure you read Galatians 2:7-9? What Bible are you using?

TeeJay

#96 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:10 PM

Teejay, You don't want to answer because your answer will refute your own argument.

So please answer my questions.

#97 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:17 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331852428' post='81749']
The post that UD was quoting made no sense because it did not support your claims over UDs. It is like an evolutionist showing us an example of Natural Selection and thinking his argument is supported.
[/quote]

ME, does this post support your claim that what UD was quoting made no sense because it did not support my claim over UD's claim? By the way, what was UD quoting?

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#98 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 05:08 PM

Teejay, If you answer my questions we can see how your responses weigh against scripture. Isn't that what we all want here?


ME, the answer to my querstion will answer your question, and both answers will agree with God.

#99 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 05:12 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331853020' post='81753']
Teejay, You don't want to answer because your answer will refute your own argument.

So please answer my questions.
[/quote]

ME, if you answer my question, it will refute your argument and prove mine. Since you won't answer me, I will not answer you (Mark 11:33).

TeeJay

#100 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 05:14 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331853020' post='81753']
Teejay, You don't want to answer because your answer will refute your own argument.

So please answer my questions.
[/quote]

ME, If I answer and prove you wrong will you admit you are wrong?

TeeJay




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