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#1 nuttypiglet

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:36 AM

I have been doing a lot of internet reading on this topic, to try and see if there is actually any proof of existence after death. I have been quite shocked and occasionally moved by some of the things I've read. One example is where a patient was having surgery and had ear plugs inserted giving loud pulses so they could be seen on the EEG. The patient died and all brain wave activity stopped, the EEG showed no signals whatsoever, even responses from the pulses through the ear plugs. This patient was classified as brain dead. After several minutes, they managed to revive the patient and activity returned to the EEG. What shocked the Doctors is the way the patient repeated virtually everything the Doctors spoke about when death had occurred. There was no way the patient could hear with the loud clicking through the ear plugs, let alone be able to process any senses due to brain death. There seems to be some common factors where near death occurs. First is leaving the body and floating. Second the whole idea of space and time seems to break down. The patient seems to find it natural to be in many places at the same time and comfortably process all the information. Several cases state how the patient was on several floors of the hospital at the same time, and gave accurate descriptions of what they had seen/heard. With so many cases of accurate accounts from dead patients, explaining what they witnessed either through hearing or sight, is this something which we should take as absolute evidence that life continues?
Another commonality is regarding missing body parts. Several people with missing limbs claimed they suddenly had their limbs back when they left their body. They explained that the soul is like a template of that body in perfection which cannot be damaged. When you leave that body as the soul, you are just the perfect soul without the flesh covering. I suppose this is a comfort to those considering being a donor. I'm sure that the accounts given by the patients are accurate because they are validated by medical staff. Most of the patients seem to change their perspective on life when they recover too, seeing life as precious and being far more confident that life doesn't end here.
When I was 11 years old, I had a nasty accident where I ran into a glass door. I actually left my body and could see it standing unconscious but not falling onto the broken glass still in the door. If my body had collapsed, it was obvious that my body would have been in 2 parts. I didn't see any lights, or dead relatives. I can say I was scared being alone and wondering how to get back in my body. All I remember is that I heard a scream from my body, then I was back in. I explained all this to my Doctors and they said "it's just a trick of the mind". I believed them and never thought about it again until recently (40 years later). Perhaps it wasn't a trick of the mind. The good thing about being out of my body was feeling no pain, but once returned, it was agony.
Sorry if I seem to pick strange topics :)

#2 Paul of Eugene OR

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:21 PM

Surely a fascinating topic. Suppose for the sake of argument that such experiences are, indeed, all a trick of the mind. Then surely such mind tricks have occurred throughout human history and explain much of our ideas about the afterlife . . . . ideas such as reincarnation, universal salvation, and so forth.

Suppose that such experiences are actually real. Well, even if actually real, it seems quite apparent that the initial experiences are tailored by the angels on the other side to ease the transition of the soul from this realm to the next. Buddhists, for example, see Buddha welcoming them, Christians see Jesus. And sometimes some come back to actually state that whatever was on the other side was deliberately appearing as what would be most comforting to them.

So even in that case, the previous state of the person matters!

Due to this automatic accommodation of whatever causes these perceptions to the expectations of the recipient of the experience, I have no way to judge them. So I don't judge them, I leave them in the area of the unexplained. God has dealt with me personally from time to time and I accept that and we have the Bible and God has instructed me to follow Jesus so that's what I do.

#3 Hawkins

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:07 PM

I have been doing a lot of internet reading on this topic, to try and see if there is actually any proof of existence after death. I have been quite shocked and occasionally moved by some of the things I've read. One example is where a patient was having surgery and had ear plugs inserted giving loud pulses so they could be seen on the EEG. The patient died and all brain wave activity stopped, the EEG showed no signals whatsoever, even responses from the pulses through the ear plugs. This patient was classified as brain dead. After several minutes, they managed to revive the patient and activity returned to the EEG. What shocked the Doctors is the way the patient repeated virtually everything the Doctors spoke about when death had occurred. There was no way the patient could hear with the loud clicking through the ear plugs, let alone be able to process any senses due to brain death. There seems to be some common factors where near death occurs. First is leaving the body and floating. Second the whole idea of space and time seems to break down. The patient seems to find it natural to be in many places at the same time and comfortably process all the information. Several cases state how the patient was on several floors of the hospital at the same time, and gave accurate descriptions of what they had seen/heard. With so many cases of accurate accounts from dead patients, explaining what they witnessed either through hearing or sight, is this something which we should take as absolute evidence that life continues?
Another commonality is regarding missing body parts. Several people with missing limbs claimed they suddenly had their limbs back when they left their body. They explained that the soul is like a template of that body in perfection which cannot be damaged. When you leave that body as the soul, you are just the perfect soul without the flesh covering. I suppose this is a comfort to those considering being a donor. I'm sure that the accounts given by the patients are accurate because they are validated by medical staff. Most of the patients seem to change their perspective on life when they recover too, seeing life as precious and being far more confident that life doesn't end here.
When I was 11 years old, I had a nasty accident where I ran into a glass door. I actually left my body and could see it standing unconscious but not falling onto the broken glass still in the door. If my body had collapsed, it was obvious that my body would have been in 2 parts. I didn't see any lights, or dead relatives. I can say I was scared being alone and wondering how to get back in my body. All I remember is that I heard a scream from my body, then I was back in. I explained all this to my Doctors and they said "it's just a trick of the mind". I believed them and never thought about it again until recently (40 years later). Perhaps it wasn't a trick of the mind. The good thing about being out of my body was feeling no pain, but once returned, it was agony.
Sorry if I seem to pick strange topics :)


Normally, death is a fated process that one can hardly go back. On the other hand, it is possible to see your own body from an "off body" perspective. From my study, in that case your soul is not actually off your body, you are just given a vision of your body. One of the possibility is that there are other spirits around who can manifest visions for you to "see" your own body or to hear, say, the details of what the doctors said while you are considered unconscious. You can "communicate" with the "outside" world this way because your soul is not well combined with your body, it's not actually off your body. Your soul will go off your body only after you die (a process without a return unless permitted, and when permitted most likely you will know who gives that permission ;) ).


When you die, you are going no where but lying on the bed (presume a natural death) while remaining fully conscious. You know clearly that you are going to die, and you know that it's not dreaming because it's a quite long process and you will be on your bed all the times during the process. You can't have a dream of yourself lying on a bed (the same bed you recognize in reality) all the times. Actually one can easily tell the difference between reality and mind tricks or dreams as dreams/mind tricks are inconsistent. You are here at this moment and you will be somewhere else the next moment, that's possibly a dream. You are lying on the bed all the times without going anywhere else while thinking lastly and logically, most likely it's not a dream.

NDEs are suspicious in that they are usually inconsistent and thus dream-like. They are not death itself but physically approaching a "bodily malfunction" but they are destined not to die. Another indicator is the "spirit", you shall see it flying out of your own body before your soul can actually leave your body. Anyway, you'll be surprised by what would happen when experiencing the process called 'tasting death' in the Bible. If you would like to do an aftermath, perhaps you'll notice that only the Bible but no other books in the world could provide you with some details about what you would experience through this process called death.

#4 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:39 AM

Normally, death is a fated process that one can hardly go back.

On the other hand, it is possible to see your own body from an "off body" perspective. From my study, in that case your soul is not actually off your body, you are just given a vision of your body. One of the possibility is that there are other spirits around who can manifest visions for you to "see" your own body or to hear, say, the details of what the doctors said while you are considered unconscious. You can "communicate" with the "outside" world this way because your soul is not well combined with your body, it's not actually off your body. Your soul will go off your body only after you die (a process without a return unless permitted, and when permitted most likely you will know who gives that permission ;) ).



Interesting concept. I guess this could be described as "soul stretching".

#5 JayShel

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:24 PM

I heard from my pastor last Sunday that the reason Jesus (and Lazarus) were raised after three days was due to a superstition held by the Jews that the soul hovered over the body for a time after death. They believed that the soul could return to the body at any point during this time, but on the third day it left the body and moved on (to judgement). In both cases, Jesus waited three days, proving that He had power over death, and was not just performing some simple feat (according to these superstitious people).

I believe that the soul can separate from the body, but it is only for specific purposes concerning glorifying God. Some of these experiences are real, and some are dreams.

#6 Hawkins

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:59 AM

Interesting concept. I guess this could be described as "soul stretching".


It is considered to be the "off body" experience as from man's perspective. But mostly they are not actually "off" the body. Some buddhists even practice to enter the "off body" state and in this state they claim to be able to see different supernatural effects. IMO, they are not actually off the body but open a channel to communicate with the outside world which should be forbidden as the evil spirits will be happy enough to misguide them.

On the other hand, Paul's experience almost defines a standard IMO. "Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows", possibly it says that you can be fully conscious with an in body state while you are given the off body experience of being brought to the third heaven.

As for after death, as long as your soul starts to get off your body you may quickly notice that you are not alone. People are out there, to be more precise, the wicked souls are out there in Hades. And the relationship between the body and the soul is more or less like a worn and its cocoon, there could be a hard time there for you to try to get off the body. Just think about how a worn trying to get off its cocoon. And the flying out of the spirit marks the end beyond which you can't make a return without a resurrection. The spirit is said to have returned to God you might need His help to get it back, I think. :D

#7 Hawkins

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:23 AM

I heard from my pastor last Sunday that the reason Jesus (and Lazarus) were raised after three days was due to a superstition held by the Jews that the soul hovered over the body for a time after death. They believed that the soul could return to the body at any point during this time, but on the third day it left the body and moved on (to judgement). In both cases, Jesus waited three days, proving that He had power over death, and was not just performing some simple feat (according to these superstitious people).

I believe that the soul can separate from the body, but it is only for specific purposes concerning glorifying God. Some of these experiences are real, and some are dreams.


I think that the Jew's culture usually may bring good hints about what the truth is, it's not necesarily the truth itself but may worth referencing.

#8 JayShel

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:10 PM

I think that the Jew's culture usually may bring good hints about what the truth is, it's not necesarily the truth itself but may worth referencing.


Haha, the Pharisees brought in all kinds of false teachings, so I would be careful with that.

#9 Hawkins

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:00 PM

Haha, the Pharisees brought in all kinds of false teachings, so I would be careful with that.


I barely remember that Jesus Christ said the Jews can listen to their teaching but just don't follow their hypocrisy. hehe..

#10 JayShel

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:34 PM

I barely remember that Jesus Christ said the Jews can listen to their teaching but just don't follow their hypocrisy. hehe..


What God revealed to them is written in the Bible, so I don't think we should randomly ascribe truth to superstitions of the Jews just because they were God's chosen people. Many cultures develop superstitions for different reasons. I think the reason they believed that the soul hovered over the body for a few days was the same as why we hold wakes today, from tradition dating back to before stethoscopes and heart rate monitors, when we did not know how to tell if someone was really dead like we can now.

#11 Hawkins

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:42 PM

What God revealed to them is written in the Bible, so I don't think we should randomly ascribe truth to superstitions of the Jews just because they were God's chosen people. Many cultures develop superstitions for different reasons. I think the reason they believed that the soul hovered over the body for a few days was the same as why we hold wakes today, from tradition dating back to before stethoscopes and heart rate monitors, when we did not know how to tell if someone was really dead like we can now.


Sure. But on the other hand, that superstition somehow "prophesied" the 3 days of Jesus' death. They also had the culture of sacrificing male lamb, and that also prophesied Jesus' death. Though the former one is superstition while the latter is biblical, culturally somehow they both point to the same thing. That's what I meant to say.

#12 JayShel

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:55 PM

Sure. But on the other hand, that superstition somehow "prophesied" the 3 days of Jesus' death.


I disagree. Jesus prophesied His resurrection would happen on the third day because He is God and God causes the future to happen and can see it in advance. Furthermore, the prophets in the Old Testament also prophesied this because God revealed it to them, because God knew it would happen. That is the whole point of prophesy, it is God revealing what will happen in the future.

The reason Jesus waited to rise until the third day was so that people would know God had done it, and no one would be fooled by thinking that His soul was "still floating above His body". He proved He is God, and that He has power over death, by His resurrection.

They also had the culture of sacrificing male lamb, and that also prophesied Jesus' death. Though the former one is superstition while the latter is biblical, culturally somehow they both point to the same thing. That's what I meant to say.


The former one is literally what God commanded them to do in the Old Testament; offer a blood sacrifice for sin atonement. The Jews did not make this tradition up on their own.

#13 Hawkins

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:54 PM

I disagree. Jesus prophesied His resurrection would happen on the third day because He is God and God causes the future to happen and can see it in advance. Furthermore, the prophets in the Old Testament also prophesied this because God revealed it to them, because God knew it would happen. That is the whole point of prophesy, it is God revealing what will happen in the future.

The reason Jesus waited to rise until the third day was so that people would know God had done it, and no one would be fooled by thinking that His soul was "still floating above His body". He proved He is God, and that He has power over death, by His resurrection.

The former one is literally what God commanded them to do in the Old Testament; offer a blood sacrifice for sin atonement. The Jews did not make this tradition up on their own.


I myself never believe in craps like "hover over the body". On the other hand, this reminds of the event in which a priest was plotting a plan to kill Jesus and he said something like "better let one person die to save us all". He's plotting a plan against Jesus and at the same time saying a prophecy about how Jesus is to going to sacrifice Himself for the many. Which somehow is a prophecy from the mouth of an evil person. This interests me the same way as how the superstition somehow has a coincidence with Jesus' death.
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#14 Tirian

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:57 AM

I myself never believe in craps like "hover over the body". ...


Why not?
Why would it not be possible for the soul to experience an out of body experience?

One of the best documented NDEs are the following ...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=WNbdUEqDB-k
http://www.near-deat...evidence01.html

#15 Ron

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:44 AM




Haha, the Pharisees brought in all kinds of false teachings, so I would be careful with that.


Haha, the Pharisees brought in all kinds of false teachings, so I would be careful with that.


I barely remember that Jesus Christ said the Jews can listen to their teaching but just don't follow their hypocrisy. hehe..



Basically, Jesus said to listen to their teachings (as they read/taught from the scriptures, AND that they were in leadership positions), BUT don’t act as they act.

The sin of the Pharisees is that they were so over-zealous about the LAW that they forgot about the heart. That they were over-zealous about outward appearances, that they totally forgot about their inner man and other people (etc…).

#16 Ron

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:51 AM


I myself never believe in craps like "hover over the body". ...



Why not?
Why would it not be possible for the soul to experience an out of body experience?



I agree, why would your spirit NOT have this ability? Further, didn’t the Holy Spirit “hover over the surface of the waters” of the Earth? (Genesis 1:2)

#17 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:28 AM

I disagree. Jesus prophesied His resurrection would happen on the third day because He is God and God causes the future to happen and can see it in advance.


JS could you please clarify this? I believe God sees the future as He is omniscient, and I believe God influences the future because He is omnipotent and impacts the present, but your statement makes it sound as if God directs everything in the present, therefore causing the "future to happen". Man's free will necessarily contradicts this from what I understand.

#18 JayShel

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:13 PM

JS could you please clarify this? I believe God sees the future as He is omniscient, and I believe God influences the future because He is omnipotent and impacts the present, but your statement makes it sound as if God directs everything in the present, therefore causing the "future to happen". Man's free will necessarily contradicts this from what I understand.


That is a better way of putting it. You are correct. God does not cause everything that happens, but He is not surprised when human beings sin, and He knows about the future in His omniscience.

I am convinced that this is because God exists outside of time. I do believe God could intervene, and prevent someone from exercising their free will, but He does not take away our free will. He works in a more round about way to prevent certain things from happening. He also knows that some suffering is necessary to produce greater joy in us believers.

Someone getting cancer is not punitive (a punishment). In many cases it gives us a respect for how fragile we are and how short our time here on earth is. If you read in the Bible, people die and the story doesn't stop really. The next verse usually continues right along. We are just a small part in His master plan. Does this mean that He doesn't care about us? Not at all. He knows that our eternal fate is sealed at a certain point in our life, and there is no use putting off the inevitable. Either we are going to spend eternity with Him, the sooner the better, or we are going to spend eternity separated from Him, and a few more years wouldn't change that.

#19 Calypsis4

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:25 PM

I heard from my pastor last Sunday that the reason Jesus (and Lazarus) were raised after three days was due to a superstition held by the Jews that the soul hovered over the body for a time after death. They believed that the soul could return to the body at any point during this time, but on the third day it left the body and moved on (to judgement). In both cases, Jesus waited three days, proving that He had power over death, and was not just performing some simple feat (according to these superstitious people).

I believe that the soul can separate from the body, but it is only for specific purposes concerning glorifying God. Some of these experiences are real, and some are dreams.


Yes, I agree.

But it's interesting that some pagans practice what's called 'soul travel' (i.e. astral projection) which I believe is a counterfeit to what God did with Ezekiel (chapter 3) and with John in Rev. 4:1-2. Believers should never be involved in a voluntary 'astral projection' for to do so would be an act of wizardry or scorcery.
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#20 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 06:49 AM

That is a better way of putting it. You are correct. God does not cause everything that happens, but He is not surprised when human beings sin, and He knows about the future in His omniscience.

I am convinced that this is because God exists outside of time. I do believe God could intervene, and prevent someone from exercising their free will, but He does not take away our free will. He works in a more round about way to prevent certain things from happening. He also knows that some suffering is necessary to produce greater joy in us believers.

Someone getting cancer is not punitive (a punishment). In many cases it gives us a respect for how fragile we are and how short our time here on earth is. If you read in the Bible, people die and the story doesn't stop really. The next verse usually continues right along. We are just a small part in His master plan. Does this mean that He doesn't care about us? Not at all. He knows that our eternal fate is sealed at a certain point in our life, and there is no use putting off the inevitable. Either we are going to spend eternity with Him, the sooner the better, or we are going to spend eternity separated from Him, and a few more years wouldn't change that.


100% agreed. Posted Image




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