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Questions From The Welcome Section On Validity Of Evolution


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#21 JayShel

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:20 PM

Leviticus 11:20-23
All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you.
Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on all fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth.
These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind.
But all other flying insects which have four feet shall be an abomination to you.

Grasshoppers, locusts, and crickets all have two large hind legs, quite different in appearance, size, and function from the front four legs. Their front legs are used for "crawling, clinging, and climbing," while their back legs rest "above" their front legs and feet, and are used for "jumping."

The Hebrew word translated "beetle" actually comes from the verb "to leap," implying a similar leaping insect, not our modern beetle. Thus, the Biblical description of flying insects turns out to be exactly anatomically correct given a change over time of Biblical kinds.

#22 Ron

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:52 AM

I want to comment on what Paul said. The Bible does say that insects had 4 legs, but we have to understand what was a leg to them.


Tubal, it doesn't matter what Paul said at that juncture, because what he did say deson't follow from "his own OP", nor does it follow from his assertion in Matt 4:4... His entire case is built upon strawmen and non sequitur's. I would suggest re-reading the entire thread to see how that comment doesn't even apply.

#23 Tubal

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 09:21 AM

Tubal, it doesn't matter what Paul said at that juncture, because what he did say deson't follow from "his own OP", nor does it follow from his assertion in Matt 4:4... His entire case is built upon strawmen and non sequitur's. I would suggest re-reading the entire thread to see how that comment doesn't even apply.


Well anyway JayShel did a much better job than I could have on explaining it.

#24 Teejay

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

Hello all,

Is God omnipresent? If He is, then He can't cast you out of His presence. Right? I would rather argue that God is everywhere that He desires to be.

Is God omniscient? No! God does not know my great-great-great grandson. Why? Because he does not yet exist. God can know him at the moment of conception. Since God wrote the DNA code, God can look into a womb (IF HE WANS TO) and know the baby after conception. God can't know the baby before he exists. That's not possible even for God. God can't give you freedom to chose and then know 20 year in advance how you will choose. I would rather argue that God knows everything knowable that He wants to know.

Is God omnipotent. No! He can't make you love Him. He can't be illogical and logical at the same time. He can't judge unjustly and remain just. He can't lie and remain honest.

More to follow. Wife's got supper on table.

TeeJay

#25 JayShel

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 05:59 PM

Hello all,

Is God omnipresent? If He is, then He can't cast you out of His presence. Right? I would rather argue that God is everywhere that He desires to be.

Is God omniscient? No! God does not know my great-great-great grandson. Why? Because he does not yet exist. God can know him at the moment of conception. Since God wrote the DNA code, God can look into a womb (IF HE WANS TO) and know the baby after conception. God can't know the baby before he exists. That's not possible even for God. God can't give you freedom to chose and then know 20 year in advance how you will choose. I would rather argue that God knows everything knowable that He wants to know.

Is God omnipotent. No! He can't make you love Him. He can't be illogical and logical at the same time. He can't judge unjustly and remain just. He can't lie and remain honest.

More to follow. Wife's got supper on table.

TeeJay


Good point, God cannot break the law of non-contradiction. If He is just, then He cannot be simultaneously unjust.

Riddle me this: What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

#26 Teejay

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:10 PM

[quote] name='JayShel' timestamp='1335488367' post='83442']
Good point, God cannot break the law of non-contradiction. If He is just, then He cannot be simultaneously unjust.

Riddle me this: What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
[/quote]

JS, collateral damage. Run for your life.

TeeJay

#27 Teejay

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:36 PM

[quote] name='Paul of Eugene OR' timestamp='1333935858' post='82979']
The following was posted to me in the welcome section and I thought I might as well answer here as there.

[/color]

Thank you for your gracious query. Jesus taught us that God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. The image of God in man is not to be found in our flesh but in our spiritual nature. We are unique among all living things on earth in that we experience thinking in a transcendentally different way. We use language and the language we use is theoretically capable of expressing any possible thought. No other kind of living thing on earth has that. We can contemplate our eternal destination. No other living thing on earth can do that. We can dedicate ourselves to following God, following Truth, following the Way, following the Life. No other living thing on earth can do that.[/quote]


Paul, I agree that God is Spirit and that we must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Further, Jesus said "I am the Truth" (John 14:6). How can one worship Him in Truth if one denies Mark 10:6: "But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female." Either old earth creationists are being truthful or Jesus is being truthful. Jesus corroborated the OT in so many ways: the Flood (Mat. 24:38) for example. The geneologies are reconfirmed in the gospels. God reconfirmed that He created in six literal days and rested on the seventh (Ex. 20:8-11).


Futher, all the unique attributes that you attribute to man (thinking, pondering our existence, ability to reason) can't really evolve. They are not physical attributes.



[quote]Jesus said we are to listen to every word from God.[/quote]

Do you read Genesis literally?


[quote]Matt 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, "MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

All things were created by the word of God. You can trust the word of God as found in the stars, the rocks, and the genomes.
[/quote]

But the old earth creationist does not believe in God's word as written in Genesis. Before Moses wrote the first five books, man had general revelatgion (stars, rocks, genomes, and ducks even). Today, we have special revelation (God's word), and we should believe what it says. No?

TeeJay

#28 JayShel

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:56 PM

JS, collateral damage. Run for your life.

TeeJay


In one word; ricochet. I like your explanation too.

Now, if God created an absolute parameter, then He cannot create a parameter that defies it, which would defy logic, ie:

God creates an immovable casing around an unstoppable object. Based on the law of non-contradiction, the objects must by definition be either moveable and unstoppable, or immovable and stoppable. This is an illogical scenario, God is logical, so He cannot defy the law of non-contradiction by word, deed, or personality.

Now say that ten times fast...

#29 Teejay

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 06:59 PM

[quote] name='Ron' timestamp='1333975218' post='82993']


The evolutionist somehow believes that we “evolved” from an ape-like creature. Therefore, since God indeed has a body, and we were originally created in the image of that body, God must (by evolutionary reasoning) looks like that ape-like image.


Indeed, and this isn’t at all, at odds with God having a body. But we must also understand up fron that Matt 4:4 in NO WAY supports evolution at all (and that was the question).

Further, doesn’t it follow:

First – If God has a “mouth” for every to proceed from.

Second – We MUST have ears to hear His words

Third – God must also have ears to hear our prayers, question and comments (feedback).

Conclusion – God, then, MUST have the original body with a mouth and ears (etc…) that we were designed in reference to?
[/quote]

Ron,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1-1). Until Jesus came in the flesh, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit were Spirit--One in Three and Three in One. I believe, and I have no Scripture at present to substantiate, that God created man with a physical body, soul, and spirit. We are spiritual beings that will not die (eternal future). God is eternal past and future. When God created our bodies, I think He had in mind that Jesus would possibly have to inhabit that body if Adam and Eve fell in the Garden.

Today, we can no longer say that God is Spirit, for Jesus is God and He indwells a human body of flesh, and He will be 100 percent man and 100 percent God for eternity future, never to die again. "In Jesus dwells the fulness of the God-head bodily" (Col. 2:9).


There are many passages in the Bible where man in the spirit form (after death) still has the ability to reason, talk, etc.. For example, Samuel being called up from Sheol to talk to King Saul (2 Sam.); the rich man Lazarus talking and reasoning with Abraham.

Something to consider is that if Adam and Eve had not sinned in the Garden, would Jesus have had to come in the flesh. Could we interact wiht God if He is Spirit? Adam did before the Fall.

I have never heard of God having a "spiritual body." Do you have in Scripture that remotely supports this theory?

TeeJay

#30 Teejay

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:13 PM

Here's the reasoning.
Premise: Man shall live by every word that procedes from the mouth of god (words of Christ)
Premise: All the worlds are created by the word of God (From Genesis)
Conclusion: Evidence gleaned from the world is valid for learning true things.
Premise: Evidence gleaned from the world shows us we are evolved. (innumerable scientific papers to this effect)
Conclusion: Accepting evolution is not contrary to scripture.

That's my reasoning. You might claim its invalid, but it does involve scripture.


First premise: I agree with Jesus Christ.
Second premise: In six days? If not, then this premise does not agree with every word that procedes from the mouth of God (words of Christ).
First conclusion: Should we interpret the Bible through the world or the world through God's word? Remember first premise.
Final conclusion: Either evolution is true or God's word is a lie. No getting around or behind this.

TeeJay

#31 JayShel

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:37 AM

Final conclusion: Either evolution is true or God's word is a lie. No getting around or behind this.

TeeJay


I thought you were going somewhere else with that. I think you mean either God's word is a lie, or evolution is a lie.

#32 Teejay

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 06:30 AM

[quote] name='JayShel' timestamp='1335530277' post='83452']
I thought you were going somewhere else with that. I think you mean either God's word is a lie, or evolution is a lie.
[/quote]

JS, you're right. I was typing faster than my brain. What I'm getting at is that we either have to believe God as literally written in Genesis or theistic evolution. Both can't be true, as they are contradictory.

TeeJay

#33 Ron

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:23 AM




The evolutionist somehow believes that we “evolved” from an ape-like creature. Therefore, since God indeed has a body, and we were originally created in the image of that body, God must (by evolutionary reasoning) looks like that ape-like image.

Indeed, and this isn’t at all, at odds with God having a body. But we must also understand up fron that Matt 4:4 in NO WAY supports evolution at all (and that was the question).

Further, doesn’t it follow:

First – If God has a “mouth” for every to proceed from.

Second – We MUST have ears to hear His words

Third – God must also have ears to hear our prayers, question and comments (feedback).

Conclusion – God, then, MUST have the original body with a mouth and ears (etc…) that we were designed in reference to?



Ron,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1-1).



Indeed, that IS what John 1:1 says


Until Jesus came in the flesh, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit were Spirit--One in Three and Three in One.


There is absolutely no reason to believe that Jesus )God the Son) can only be STILL Spirit, even though He indeed came in the flesh to fulfill the need for salvation (New Testament)… You must also remember that God (Theophany), Jesus (Christophany), and even angles (although, it is believed that some of the angelic appearances, we actually God or Jesus) appeared to man in the Old Testament as well (Gen. 3:8, Judges 6:11-23, Genesis 16:7-14, Genesis 18, Genesis 32:24-30, Josh. 5:13-15, Joshua 5:13-15, Judges 13:3-23, Kings 19:35, Daniel 3:20-30, ).

All of these appearances (keep in mind, this is NOT an exhaustive listing), beg the question; “how can God (the son) appear in the flesh in the Old Testament, and ONLY be a Spirit until the New Testament?

Also consider, how can God be found “WALKING in the garden in the cool of the day’ if HE had no legs? Also, if Adam and Eve heard God’s voice, how can it be logically possible without God having a mouth? (Gen. 3:9). Further, how could God hear Adam and Eve’s reply if God didn’t have ears? (Gen. 3:10). Especially since God created man “In HIS Image” (Gen. 1:26&27)


I believe, and I have no Scripture at present to substantiate, that God created man with a physical body, soul, and spirit.


Actually, you indeed have scriptural evidence that God created man in the flesh, and then breathed the “spirit of life” into him. See Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground(physical Body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(spirit); and man became a living being.” Therefore WE are both SPIRIT and FLESH!


We are spiritual beings that will not die (eternal future). God is eternal past and future. When God created our bodies, I think He had in mind that Jesus would possibly have to inhabit that body if Adam and Eve fell in the Garden.


Our bodies are flesh, our spirits are not. Our spirits are immortal, our bodies are not. Further, there is absolutely NO reason to believe that our spirits don’t look exactly as our bodies’ do (just of different matter). I can conclude this, because:

First – God said we were created in HIS image

Second – Jesus resurrected in a fashion that He appeared exactly as He did before He died, AND everyone who saw Him recognized Him on sight.
Third – When Steven saw Jesus standing at God’s right hand (in heaven) he recognized Him.
Further – Jesus, in his resurrected body, apparently had the ability to materialize through walls/doors AND transport wherever he wanted.



Today, we can no longer say that God is Spirit, for Jesus is God and He indwells a human body of flesh, and He will be 100 percent man and 100 percent God for eternity future, never to die again. "In Jesus dwells the fulness of the God-head bodily" (Col. 2:9).


Actually. We can indeed say that God is a Spirit (John 4:23-24), because we are speaking of God the Father. But we can indeed say the Jesus is a Spirit as well, because Jesus HAS a spirit (just as we do). Our flesh will not last, but our spirit will.


There are many passages in the Bible where man in the spirit form (after death) still has the ability to reason, talk, etc.. For example, Samuel being called up from Sheol to talk to King Saul (2 Sam.); the rich man Lazarus talking and reasoning with Abraham.


Absolutely! Samuel’s “spirit “(elohim – see 1 Samuel 28:13 ) was seen by the witch to be “ascending out of the earth” AND “Saul perceived that it was Samuel” Saul recognized Samuel in his “SPIRIT FORM”

Lazarus on the other had had his fleshly body raised by Jesus, not his spirit. (John 11:38-44) Lazarus’ spirit never died, only his body did. Further, Lazarus never displayed the ability to materialize wherever he wanted, as it was flesh.



Something to consider is that if Adam and Eve had not sinned in the Garden, would Jesus have had to come in the flesh. Could we interact wiht God if He is Spirit? Adam did before the Fall.

I have never heard of God having a "spiritual body." Do you have in Scripture that remotely supports this theory?

TeeJay



Again, with ALL of the scriptural evidence provided, one can easily conclude that God has a Spiritual body (as I have provided throughout this thread. You don’t have agree, but I would suggest that if you want to counter my evidences, you need to provide counter evidences…

#34 Teejay

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:30 PM

Ron,

To be truthful, this is a subject that I have not really given much thought--the concept of God having a Spiritual Body. I'm going to postpone answering you on this until I've pondered and researched it a bit. And, I fell doing some carpenter work and broke a rib; consequently, it's a little painful for me to sit at this keyboard. I'll get back with you.

In the mean time you asked: "Also consider, how can God be found “WALKING in the garden in the cool of the day’ if HE had no legs? Also, if Adam and Eve heard God’s voice, how can it be logically possible without God having a mouth? (Gen. 3:9). Further, how could God hear Adam and Eve’s reply if God didn’t have ears? (Gen. 3:10). Especially since God created man “In HIS Image” (Gen. 1:26&27)"

Consider that God appeared to man in various ways: As a Burning Bush, as a Pillar of Fire by night, as a Pillar of Smoke by day, and as a Donkey who spoke to his master who would not listen to God. Just something to think about.


TeeJay




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