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The 4Th Commandment. The Seventh Day Sabbath.


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#1 Tubal

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:42 PM

The purpose of this thread is to start discussion on a topic I think is very important. Many Christians today are very content in the theology commonly accepted that we are no longer bound to keep any day holy. Some arguments are that the apostles came together on other days, Jesus rose Sunday changing the Sabbath from the last day to the first day and that after Jesus was crucified the Sabbath was done away with because it was a shadow as was all other ceremonial law and it doesn't matter what day we keep. We will see if these arguments stand in the Bible.

To catch up please read my other thread here. I will be repeating some stuff for the new people and explaining some stuff for the old.

When it comes to defending contradictory doctrine in the Bible the author of choice seems to be Paul. His writings are hard to understand to those that are not adept in scripture and easy to misinterpret.
2 Peter 3:15-16

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Even Peter knew it was hard for most people to understand Paul's writing. He says they "wrest" or distort the scriptures for their own destruction.

In this post I want to address the belief that the sacrifice of Jesus ended the need to keep the 4th commandment. People say that the law was nailed to the cross. Everyone knows a set of laws were removed after the crucifixion but which laws? I'd like for us all to think about this. God wrote and gave Moses the Ten Commandments and he put them inside the ark of the covenant. God instructed Moses on the festivals, offerings and ceremonies. Moses wrote this in a book and put it beside the ark. Here we see a clear difference. God's law, written by his hand is inside the ark, the ceremonial law, written by Moses was placed beside the ark. There were other Sabbath days other than the weekly seventh day Sabbath. These were the passover and the feast of unleavened bread as well as the lunar Sabbaths. These were commanded to Moses by God but they are not part of the 10 commandments. These are shadow Sabbaths. They point to our passover lamb, our savior. The seventh day Sabbath cannot be a shadow Sabbath because it does not point to our redemption but to creation. It was established for man before sin, so it could not have been part of the shadow sabbath days on which God instructed Moses. After Jesus paid the price for sin, there was no need for the ceremonial law to continue to govern the Israelite. Sacrifices are no longer needed. By one sacrifice Jesus made for ever perfect his atonement for us. We also do not have to keep the festivals of the passover and the feasts, though we can if we so desire. Please note, the seventh day Sabbath was founded at creation, it is not a shadow of our savior because it was before sin. The seventh day sabbath is written on stone by the finger of God inside the ark of the covenant. The festival Sabbaths were given to Moses after the writing of the Ten Commandments, showing their secondary importance. Many texts in the New Testament refer to these sabbath days and say that let no man judge you on these. But please note that here the apostle is speaking of the festivals.

In the next post we will be looking at the texts people use to defend this abandonment of the 4th commandment and some texts for the Sabbath as well.

Join me next time for the investigation of scripture to see if this is really Biblical. God bless.

Please post any questions, arguments or rebuttals . Thank you.

#2 Tubal

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 05:09 PM

In this post I will be talking about the texts used by people to defend breaking the commandment of God. I won't be talking much about the easy ones because my argument against those is a sort of "one size fits all" deal.

These type arguments as similar in shape to the "Jesus rose on the first day" argument. This argument doesn't remove Sabbath but I think it does something far more dangerous, it changes it. This argument and all things similar to it can quickly be brought down by asking this question. Why didn't he rise the Sabbath? Or ask why didn't the apostles do what they did on the Sabbath but way for it to end to do it on the first day? See, these really aren't arguments for changing the Sabbath but arguments to show that even the early believers kept the Sabbath. Some people may reference a text in which it describes the apostles together eating or preaching but that is all they are doing, is eating and preaching. No command to remove the Sabbath or change it nor are they worshiping.

The harder texts are these. Remember what I said in the last post? The corrupter of scripture's favorite author to quote is Paul.

Colosians 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Here Paul is talking about fasting, keeping holydays commanded by God, new moon festivals and sabbath days. I put emphasis on the days part because here we can clearly see he doesn't mean the sabbath day but sabbath days. As in the ceremonial festivals of the passover and such as I said in the previous post. These are shadow Sabbaths, part of the ceremonial law. Of course these ceremonies and days were all holy because God can only accept what is holy. However holy, they were part of the ceremonial law, which itself was holy but not part of the Ten Commandments.


Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Interesting text. "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind". Does this sound like something the Holy Spirit would say about God's law? Absolutely not. I counter with this.
Proverbs 14:12

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


In my "Hello" thread I debunked the Romans 14:5 text. This text is also used out of context. Paul is talking about fasting and on which day to fast. When put in context, Paul cannot be talking about God's law. The whole chapter was dedicated to fasting. If you read it you will see. I recommend some extra reading if you aren't satisfied still.

romans 14 explained: Link1 Link2

It is true that the law cannot save. We are saved by grace but the law is a test and if do not keep it we are hypocrites and liars and are at risk of being lost.

Revelation 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


If we know we have to keep the commandments and find excuses to avoid them we are at risk of being lost. Not because of confusion but because we consciously reject God's law.

Romans 6:15

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

God forbid, brothers.

Love God and keep his commandments.

#3 Tubal

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:48 PM

Now some scripture defending and establishing creation Sabbath observance. I will be using New Testament texts because the Old Testament is packed with Sabbath keeping as we all should know. The main arguments posed are that in the new covenant we don't have to keep the Sabbath. I have shown that the Sabbath is perpetual. Some people will say that the early church fathers did not keep the sabbath. Our example should not be any man but Jesus himself.

Luke 4:16

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.


Revelation 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Matthew 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


But is it true that the Apostles and early followers of Jesus kept the Sabbath? Absolutely.

Mark 16:1

And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.


Luke 23:54-56

And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


Luke 24:1

Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.


Acts 13:14

But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.


Acts 13:42-44

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.


Acts 16:12-15

And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshiped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.


Acts 18:4

And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.


Mark 2:27

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath



As you could have figured out by reading, Paul is one of my favorite writers in the Bible. It's a shame to see how people distort what he means to such an extent.

For more reading on defending the Sabbath please go to these links.
Link1 Link2

#4 Tubal

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:04 PM

Any questions, arguments or comments are greatly appreciated.. boy, you can hear the crickets in here.

Happy Sabbath btw :)

I think I'll be making another thread about clean and unclean foods soon.

#5 Salsa

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:59 AM

Hi Tubal

The problem with SDA theology is that it ignores the problems that Paul indicates are connected with legalism. There is nothing in Paul's doctrine that indicates that the solution to these problems was to simply follow the 10 commandments. Can you give me any scripture that points to the fact that a reduction of the size of the law solves anything as far as righteousness is concerned?

No, you can't, because the idea that it does is totally extra-biblical. The solution according to Paul was to be "released from the law" so that we "serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

Also, if observance of a weekly sabbath was any part of attaining righteousness through faith then it would have been a part of the Abrahamic convenant, along with the other commandments, rather that something introduced later on when the Jews started to rebell against God.

You claim that observance of the 10 commandments is some kind of faith test. But what do you base that on? If you read Hebrews 4 carefully then think you will realize that the observance of the sabbath is not faith-based. If it was then there would not have been any mention of "another day", called "Today".

The true sabbath, based on the realities in Christ, is eternal for the believer.
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#6 Tubal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:59 PM

Hi Tubal

The problem with SDA theology is that it ignores the problems that Paul indicates are connected with legalism. There is nothing in Paul's doctrine that indicates that the solution to these problems was to simply follow the 10 commandments. Can you give me any scripture that points to the fact that a reduction of the size of the law solves anything as far as righteousness is concerned?

No, you can't, because the idea that it does is totally extra-biblical. The solution according to Paul was to be "released from the law" so that we "serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

Also, if observance of a weekly sabbath was any part of attaining righteousness through faith then it would have been a part of the Abrahamic convenant, along with the other commandments, rather that something introduced later on when the Jews started to rebell against God.

You claim that observance of the 10 commandments is some kind of faith test. But what do you base that on? If you read Hebrews 4 carefully then think you will realize that the observance of the sabbath is not faith-based. If it was then there would not have been any mention of "another day", called "Today".

The true sabbath, based on the realities in Christ, is eternal for the believer.

Nice strawman with the "can you give me any scripture...?" argument. I'm not even making a point about the size of the law. Setting up strawmen and knocking them down is not going to get you anywhere with me.

Legalism is the belief that works save and I have made no such statement. In the old covenant and the new we are saved by grace and grace alone. Faith in that the sacrifice of the Lamb was enough to pay for us. Although they were saved by grace even in the OT they still kept the law. Even after the crucifixion, Jesus followers still kept the Sabbath showing that he did not come to do away with it. Keeping the Sabbath does not make you righteous but if you are you will keep the Sabbath. Understand?

Romans 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


John 2:6

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If you are in Jesus you will live as he lived and keep all that he kept. The full and complete law of God

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Jesus had to die to mend the relationship between man and God that had been broken since sin. Accepting that Jesus died for you and reconciled you to God is not enough! You MUST live as Jesus lived. Believing in His death brings us close to God but living his life is what saves us. Without one or the other we are lost. Without grace we have no salvation, without the law we have no need of grace.

Furthermore without the law how will God test our loyalty to him? The law has been a test in the past always for the children of Israel, what makes you think it will not be a test for us? When King Nebuchadnezzar told them to bow they did not because of God's law. Many bowed down but those that had faith stood for the law. Jesus says if you love him keep his commandments. Anywhere we see an if statement we know it is conditional, it tests something (sorry, I'm a programmer). If you love him keep his commandments, it tests your love towards God. The first four commandments are on how to love God and the later six on how to love your brother.

Your problem is that you think this is SDA theology and not looking at where it is really coming from. The source is not me, nor the SDA church but the Bible itself. I am not referencing any other book but the Bible.

Provide Biblical texts for the argument you are making. Show me the text about living by the Spirit and I will show you where you took it out of context. Remember the Bible does not contradict itself.

Hebrews 4:3-6

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

I read this and it seems to me more speaking about keeping the Sabbath, by "belief" too. What is your argument?

#7 Tubal

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:23 PM

The law does not save. I said this before but you totally ignored it.

Without the sacrifice of Jesus the lamb our keeping of the law is pointless, God won't even accept it.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


Without the atonement of Jesus our keeping of the law are as "filthy rags". Only the grace of God given to us because of the merit of Jesus on the cross can our keeping of the law actually do anything for us. It is not one or the other but both. We are saved by grace and the law. It is not enough to accept Jesus sacrifice for you but now you must walk as he did.

This is so simple to understand, why can't you get it? Shall we steal and kill because these were also part of the Ten Commandments, if you can make void one law of the ten why not all? If you do not want to keep the Sabbath you do not love Jesus, simple as that.

Grace + Law = Salvation

Keeping the law is as optional as salvation, your choice.

Ezekiel 20:24

Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.


I find it kind of petty you had to mention my denomination when I haven't mentioned Seventh Day Adventism in this thread not once.
I've been using the Bible and the Bible alone but obviously that isn't enough for you, you needed more to make an argument.

#8 Teejay

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:50 PM

Hello all,

For the nation of Israel, Sabbath law is perpetual:

Therefore the children Israel shall keep the Sabbath of, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. Ex. 31:16

The word perpetual unambiguously and accurately translates from the Hebrew ‘olam. Reinforcing this, the texts states that God’s people shall observe the Sabbath “throughout their generations.”

The Sabbath “is a sign. . . forever:”

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath. . . throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever. . . . Ex. 31:16-17

Perpetually forever. God gives no indication of repeal for the Sabbath any time in the future. A passage regarding the bread of the tabernacle reveals the same truth:

“Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. . . by a perpetual statute.” Lev. 24:8-9

Those of Solomon’s time remembered this truth of the perpetual Sabbath. In a letter to “Hiram king of Tyre” (2 Chr. 2:3), Solomon asked for cedars to build a temple to offer sacrifice:

“. . .on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel. 2 Chr. 2:4

For Israel, Sabbath keeping was not optional: ’Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.’” Ex. 31:15


For the Body of Christ, of Whom we Christians are members, there is only one law: Do not partake of the law.

But Paul writes, “Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow [sign] of things to come, but the substances is of Christ” (Col. 2:16-17).


Christians are confused on two issues today: 1) They some how believe that after the Cross, Israel was no longer under the law. Nothing could be further from the truth. Either Sabbath law for Israel is perpetual or God is a lying when He clearly says that it is perpetual; and 2) They some how believe that Christians in the Body of Christ must keep the Sabbath. But either we are not to keep the Sabbath or Paul is lying.


TeeJay

#9 Tubal

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:27 AM

Hello all,

For the nation of Israel, Sabbath law is perpetual:

Therefore the children Israel shall keep the Sabbath of, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. Ex. 31:16

The word perpetual unambiguously and accurately translates from the Hebrew ‘olam. Reinforcing this, the texts states that God’s people shall observe the Sabbath “throughout their generations.”

The Sabbath “is a sign. . . forever:”

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath. . . throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever. . . . Ex. 31:16-17

Perpetually forever. God gives no indication of repeal for the Sabbath any time in the future. A passage regarding the bread of the tabernacle reveals the same truth:

“Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. . . by a perpetual statute.” Lev. 24:8-9

Those of Solomon’s time remembered this truth of the perpetual Sabbath. In a letter to “Hiram king of Tyre” (2 Chr. 2:3), Solomon asked for cedars to build a temple to offer sacrifice:

“. . .on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel. 2 Chr. 2:4

For Israel, Sabbath keeping was not optional: ’Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.’” Ex. 31:15


For the Body of Christ, of Whom we Christians are members, there is only one law: Do not partake of the law.

But Paul writes, “Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow [sign] of things to come, but the substances is of Christ” (Col. 2:16-17).


Christians are confused on two issues today: 1) They some how believe that after the Cross, Israel was no longer under the law. Nothing could be further from the truth. Either Sabbath law for Israel is perpetual or God is a lying when He clearly says that it is perpetual; and 2) They some how believe that Christians in the Body of Christ must keep the Sabbath. But either we are not to keep the Sabbath or Paul is lying.


TeeJay


Sorry TeeJay but it seems you too are guilty of ignoring what I wrote. No where is the Sabbath abolished. The text you are using from Paul I have debunked. He is talking about the ceremonies which pointed to Jesus, that's why he says "the substance is of Christ". The shadow sabbaths were done away with, not creation Sabbath. You are confused by Paul just as Peter says. Everyone is under the law. If we do not keep the law then we neglect to follow Jesus because he specifically told us to keep the law. Paul is not a liar, the ceremonial law that the substance of which was Jesus was fulfilled at the cross and done away with.

Mark 2:27-28

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Does it say "The sabbath was made for the jew"? No. It was made for man after creation.

Romans 3:23-24

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


So law tells us where sin is. All have sinned therefore all are under the law. Grace reconciles them unto God.

Romans 4:15

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


I am not talking about keeping the Sabbath how the Pharisees kept it but to do God's will and seek a relationship with him that day, apart from the daily monotonous lives we lead. To come together once a week and have rest in his company. To call his day a delight, keep it and it is not burdensome to keep the law to those that are in the Spirit. Because the Spirit makes strong in what the flesh was weak.

Ask the Holy Spirit for direction and God bless you all.

Hebrews 10:26

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

If you sin wilfully knowing full well, the sacrifice of Jesus covers you no more. You are no longer under grace but under the penalty of the law which is death.
Either you die because of the law or your "Old man" dies because of grace. We cannot get rid of one or the other but must have both law and grace.

Romans 6:6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Paul is very clear here and confusion is near impossible.


For the Body of Christ, of Whom we Christians are members, there is only one law: Do not partake of the law.

Brother, this is not Biblical and can lead to some people excusing very strange behavior and think they will be saved. Shall we steal and lie and worship false gods? Do not partake of the law? That doesn't even make sense! Which law? The ceremonial law, that makes sense but the Ten Commandments? Who perverted you in such manner by teaching you this rubbish?! Through the law we know sin, sin puts us in need of a savior. If we are not under the law (of which the Sabbath is part of) then there is no sin, therefor we need not Jesus. Jesus said it well "if you love me keep my commandments".

As for the Sabbath being a perpetual mark, I indeed think it is but not only for the jew. Remember race has nothing to do with this. God is talking about HIS people. Anyone that accepts him is grafted in to the vineyard.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are we not God's people? Are we not the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise? God has a sign he has designated for his people which we must accept and that is his law. Thinking God gives one law to a man and another to another is ludicrous!

Exodus 20:10

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

If the law was only for the Jew why did the stranger have to keep it too? God ultimately wants us all to keep his law.
Through Israel he taught the world who was the true God in a time of so many false gods.

Acts 20:29-30

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Read ALL the Bible references I use and I pray you will see the light.

God bless.

#10 Salsa

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:08 AM

Nice strawman with the "can you give me any scripture...?" argument. I'm not even making a point about the size of the law. Setting up strawmen and knocking them down is not going to get you anywhere with me.


Since you are making a distinction between the ten commandments and the other parts of the law such as ceremonial laws then how is it a strawman? How much of the law is a Christian supposed to keep? What scripture do you base that on?

Legalism is the belief that works save and I have made no such statement.


I disagree. I would say that legalism is trying to serve God by following the written code of the law instead of in the new way by the Spirit.

Although they were saved by grace even in the OT they still kept the law.


No they did not keep the law. If they kept the law then they would not need grace.

If you are in Jesus you will live as he lived and keep all that he kept. The full and complete law of God


Do you?

And those who don't, what do you say about them?

Furthermore without the law how will God test our loyalty to him?


By whether or not we serve him in the new way by the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. When the Lord through an angel instructed Philip to take a certain route and minister a certain Ethiopian eunuch, was he serving God in the old way of the written code, or the new way? What written commandment was Philip following?

Jesus says if you love him keep his commandments. Anywhere we see an if statement we know it is conditional, it tests something (sorry, I'm a programmer).


So am I, and have been one since before you were born. If you simply assume that every use of the word "commandment" is referring to the ten commandments then you just might end up with a bug in your code.

#11 Teejay

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:27 AM

[quote] name='Tubal' timestamp='1336289251' post='83726']
Sorry TeeJay but it seems you too are guilty of ignoring what I wrote. No where is the Sabbath abolished. The text you are using from Paul I have debunked. He is talking about the ceremonies which pointed to Jesus, that's why he says "the substance is of Christ". The shadow sabbaths were done away with, not creation Sabbath. You are confused by Paul just as Peter says. Everyone is under the law. If we do not keep the law then we neglect to follow Jesus because he specifically told us to keep the law. Paul is not a liar, the ceremonial law that the substance of which was Jesus was fulfilled at the cross and done away with[/quote]

Tubal, questions:

Do you believe we have to get circumcised?


Do you observe any of Israel's feasts?

Do you observe all Israel's tithing laws?

Have you performed "greater miracles" than Jesus did?

Do you lay hands on the sick so that they will recover?

If you drink poison, are you immune to its effects?

Are you immune to the bite of a Texas Diamondback?

Has ten Gentiles "grabbed the sleeve of your coat and say, 'we want to go with you....'"

Have you raised anyone from the dead?

Do you worry about eating meat sacrificed to idols?

[quote]Mark 2:27-28

Does it say "The sabbath was made for the jew"? No. It was made for man after creation.[/quote]

Who was Jesus talking to?
Other than the Gentile centurion and the Caanaite woman with the demon possessed daughter, Jesus did not teach or minister to one Gentile.

[quote]Romans 3:23-24[/quote]

You either have to be under the Covenant of Grace or the Covenant of Law. A grace gospel (for salvation) with no works or law keeping can't be found in any circumcision epistle. Only in Paul's letters can a grace gospel with no works or law keeping be found. Now understand that in the final judgment, a Jew under the law was saved by grace. God can add grace to a covenant of law; but He can't add works and law keeping to grace. If He did, then it would no longer be a free gift of grace.

[quote]Romans 3:20[/quote]

If by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified, then why do you want to partake of it? "By the law is the knowledge of sin." "By the Tree is the knowledge of sin." The day that you partake of the law you will die. The day that you partake of the Tree you will die. Both have the same ministries. Right?


[quote]Romans 3:20


So law tells us where sin is. All have sinned therefore all are under the law. Grace reconciles them unto God.[/quote]

If you are reconciled to God by grace and delivered from the condemnation of the law, then why do you want to put yourself back under it? "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit are you now made righteous by the law? I fear for you [paraphrased]." "The law is good if one uses it rightly. For the law is not made for the righteous but for sinners [paraphrased]." The law should be used by us to witness to the unsaved. But once a man is saved, he is no longer condemned by the law. God has delivered him from its condemnation. Now you can be foolish and put yourself back under its condemnation. Better yet, you can plant your own Tree of Knowledge as the Baptist do with no drinking or dancing.

[quote]Romans 4:15[/quote]

Here Paul is explaining that if you are saved by "my gospel" (a Pauline term), then you are no longer under the law and "where there is no law, there is no transgression."


[quote]I am not talking about keeping the Sabbath how the Pharisees kept it but to do God's will and seek a relationship with him that day, apart from the daily monotonous lives we lead. To come together once a week and have rest in his company. To call his day a delight, keep it and it is not burdensome to keep the law to those that are in the Spirit. Because the Spirit makes strong in what the flesh was weak.[/quote]

Keeping God's symbolic laws for Israel was not optional. The first man to violate it was put to death. Tubal, I must respectfully submit that you have changed God's Sabbath law for Israel to suit yourself. God has not granted Tubal that authority.

[quote]Ask the Holy Spirit for direction and God bless you all.[/quote]

You need not ask the Holy Spirit. And if you do, He would probably tell you that He has already spoken in His word--the Bible.

[quote]Hebrews 10:26

If you sin wilfully knowing full well, the sacrifice of Jesus covers you no more. You are no longer under grace but under the penalty of the law which is death.
Either you die because of the law or your "Old man" dies because of grace. We cannot get rid of one or the other but must have both law and grace.[/quote]

You could not be more wrong if you were a Mormon. Under the Gospel of Grace, you are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ where you are sealed. Your salvation is secure. "Jesus will not deny Himself" if we are unfaithful, Paul says.

If you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Presently, Tubal, you are walking in the flesh (the law). "The law gives passion to our evil desires." Do not partake of it.

[quote]Romans 6:6

Paul is very clear here and confusion is near impossible.[/quote]

If you place yourself under the law, then you are a “slave to sin.”



[quote]Brother, this is not Biblical and can lead to some people excusing very strange behavior and think they will be saved. Shall we steal and lie and worship false gods? Do not partake of the law? That doesn't even make sense! Which law? The ceremonial law, that makes sense but the Ten Commandments? Who perverted you in such manner by teaching you this rubbish?! Through the law we know sin, sin puts us in need of a savior. If we are not under the law (of which the Sabbath is part of) then there is no sin, therefor we need not Jesus. Jesus said it well "if you love me keep my commandments".[/quote]

Question: In the Garden, how many prohibitive laws did God give to Adam?

The law has two purposes and two only: God’s law, if enforced justly and swiftly, deters crime. The second purpose is to convict us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. But Jesus is the “end of the law for righteousness.” If we have to keep the law for salvation, then Jesus did not have to keep the law for us and go to the Cross. Right?

[quote]As for the Sabbath being a perpetual mark, I indeed think it is but not only for the jew. Remember race has nothing to do with this. God is talking about HIS people. Anyone that accepts him is grafted in to the vineyard.[/quote]

No record of any prohibition against working on the Sabbath exists until God fed Israel with manna 2,500 years after creation. A careful study reveals that 110 chapters of the Bible report this early period of human history (Genesis 2 through 50, Exodus 1-19, and Job 1:42) without a single mention of a weekly prohibition of work or of any Sabbath observance. The Bible’s first mention of the word Sabbath occurs in God’s command to Israel that forbade the collection of manna on the Sabbath (Ex. 16:23). That reference does not use the definite article. If God had said, “Tomorrow is the Sabbath,” normal grammatical rules would indicate that they had prior knowledge of the Sabbath. Rather, God omitted the definite article and used the full form, Shabbaton Shabbat kodesh “a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath” in the way of a formal introduction of the concept to Israel.


Today, God holds in abeyance His covenant with Israel. So since He has temporarily set that nation aside, what does that imply concerning the Sabbath? The Body is not Israel! First, Paul explained that God “cut off” Israel (Romans 11:11-26). Later, he defended the man “who does not observe the day (Rom. 14:5-6). Since God gave the Sabbath as a sign for Israel, and then cut her off, He will not require men to keep the Sabbath again until Israel is “grafted in again” (Rom. 11:23 with Ex. 31:16-17; Lev. 24:8-9; 2 Chr. 2:4; Isaiah 66:22-23).

Paul defends the one “who does not observe the day” (Rom. 14:5-6) based on God’s emancipation of the Body of Christ from Sabbath keeping (Col. 2:16-17) as well as from all the required symbols of the law. A man in the Body should love God and his neighbor. He should not murder, steal or fornicate (Rom. 13:8-10). He should have no other gods before the LORD, nor should he take the LORD’s name in vain. God expects him to live this way, but He does not expect him to submit to the law since the law cannot produce righteousness. Members of the Body of Christ are “dead to the law through the body of Christ” (Rom. 7:4) and “have been delivered from the law” (Rom. 7:6). Adultery, however, retains its destructive effect. While God took the law “out of the way, having nailed it to the Cross” (Col. 2:14) the moral behavior described in the law remains good and right. (For sure, a believer’s life should exhibit the righteousness described by Tier One and Tier Two of the law.




[quote]Are we not God's people? Are we not the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise? God has a sign he has designated for his people which we must accept and that is his law. Thinking God gives one law to a man and another to another is ludicrous![/quote]

Which promise? God made two covenants with Abraham:

Under the first covenant in Genesis 15, God put Abraham to sleep. While asleep, Abraham could do nothing except believe. “And he believed God; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” Fourteen years later, in Genesis 17, God commanded Abraham to circumcise. This is the second covenant.


The first covenant is the Covenant of grace which Paul would preach. Paul would also refer to it as the Gospel of Uncircumcision (Gal. 2:7 & 9). The command to circumcise is the second covenant or the Gospel of Circumcision (works plus faith). The Gospel of Uncircumcision is justification by faith alone. The Apostle Paul would write of this in Romans 4:

“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of the circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised”

Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh or foreskin. Why did God give this strange ritual? Circumcision is a synonym for the Law. Israel had to circumcise and keep the law, as the effort to keep the law is a “cutting off of the flesh.” Paul wrote, “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit [God], and the Spirit against the flesh…” (Gal. 5:17-19).



[quote]Exodus 20:10

If the law was only for the Jew why did the stranger have to keep it too? God ultimately wants us all to keep his law.
Through Israel he taught the world who was the true God in a time of so many false gods.[/quote]

This would be like asking the King of Saudi Arabia why you have to obey his laws when you are in his country. Right?

[quote]Acts 20:29-30


Read ALL the Bible references I use and I pray you will see the light.

God bless.
[/quote]

You have placed Paul under Acts 20:29-30. He taught that we are saved by grace and not by works lest any man should boast.




TeeJay

#12 Stripe

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 10:05 AM

The gospel for us today is freedom from the law. Anyone who preaches any other gospel, let him be accursed.

#13 Tubal

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:35 PM

Tubal, questions:

Do you believe we have to get circumcised?


Do you observe any of Israel's feasts?

Do you observe all Israel's tithing laws?

Have you performed "greater miracles" than Jesus did?

Do you lay hands on the sick so that they will recover?

If you drink poison, are you immune to its effects?

Are you immune to the bite of a Texas Diamondback?

Has ten Gentiles "grabbed the sleeve of your coat and say, 'we want to go with you....'"

Have you raised anyone from the dead?

Do you worry about eating meat sacrificed to idols?

The reason I don't have to get circumcised or keep festivals is because that was part of the ceremonial law, it was not on the Ten Commandments. I have not preformed great things through the Holy Spirit that just goes to show how much more I need to search for God. How many times must I repeat myself? The two laws are separate!

Who was Jesus talking to?
Other than the Gentile centurion and the Caanaite woman with the demon possessed daughter, Jesus did not teach or minister to one Gentile.

So according to you then Jesus didn't want a single Gentile to be saved because he didn't preach once to them.

You either have to be under the Covenant of Grace or the Covenant of Law. A grace gospel (for salvation) with no works or law keeping can't be found in any circumcision epistle. Only in Paul's letters can a grace gospel with no works or law keeping be found. Now understand that in the final judgment, a Jew under the law was saved by grace. God can add grace to a covenant of law; but He can't add works and law keeping to grace. If He did, then it would no longer be a free gift of grace.

Again, I have said this many times. The law does not save nor count towards grace. Grace saves but if you are under grace you will keep the law because if you break the law you are removed from grace, go read the references I used from Paul last post. With all honesty and no insult intended, Paul's gospel is not a new gospel but you have distorted it as Peter said many do. Paul can not contradict the Bible, to base this doctrine solely on Paul shows that you are the one mistaken not he.

If by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified, then why do you want to partake of it? "By the law is the knowledge of sin." "By the Tree is the knowledge of sin." The day that you partake of the law you will die. The day that you partake of the Tree you will die. Both have the same ministries. Right?

The tree in the garden was a test, God's law is his test of obedience towards him. Question. Why did God need a test if there was no sin? Do not think that because you are saved by grace you have no need of the law because you will be lost. If there is no law there is no sin. So since you can't keep the law, rather than live by the Spirit keeping all of God's commandments you'd rather get rid of them?! There is not a single text in scripture supporting you brother TeeJay!

If you are reconciled to God by grace and delivered from the condemnation of the law, then why do you want to put yourself back under it? "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit are you now made righteous by the law? I fear for you [paraphrased]." "The law is good if one uses it rightly. For the law is not made for the righteous but for sinners [paraphrased]." The law should be used by us to witness to the unsaved. But once a man is saved, he is no longer condemned by the law. God has delivered him from its condemnation. Now you can be foolish and put yourself back under its condemnation. Better yet, you can plant your own Tree of Knowledge as the Baptist do with no drinking or dancing.

There is no condemnation under the law if you keep it, only if you break it. Salvation is not a permanent state, you can become lost after accepting Jesus. What Paul is talking about when he says law is the ceremonial law, to think other wise is impossible. The law of the sacrifice unto God condemns but if you accept Jesus as your sacrifice you are free from that law, the ceremonial law.

Here Paul is explaining that if you are saved by "my gospel" (a Pauline term), then you are no longer under the law and "where there is no law, there is no transgression."

You have distorted Paul to perfection. So to make sure there is no transgression of the law we must get rid of it instead of keeping it? Does that make any sense? Can we do away with something God instituted.

Keeping God's symbolic laws for Israel was not optional. The first man to violate it was put to death. Tubal, I must respectfully submit that you have changed God's Sabbath law for Israel to suit yourself. God has not granted Tubal that authority.



You need not ask the Holy Spirit. And if you do, He would probably tell you that He has already spoken in His word--the Bible.



You could not be more wrong if you were a Mormon. Under the Gospel of Grace, you are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ where you are sealed. Your salvation is secure. "Jesus will not deny Himself" if we are unfaithful, Paul says.

If you walk in the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Presently, Tubal, you are walking in the flesh (the law). "The law gives passion to our evil desires." Do not partake of it.



If you place yourself under the law, then you are a “slave to sin.”

Not by being placed under the law are we slaves to sin but by committing sin.

John 8:34

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


Hebrews 12:5-8

You have forgotten the encouraging words that God speaks to you as his children:
“My child, pay attention when the Lord disciplines you.
Don’t give up when he corrects you.
The Lord disciplines everyone he loves.He severely disciplines everyone he accepts as his child.”
Endure your discipline. God corrects you as a father corrects his children. All children are disciplined by their fathers. If you aren’t disciplined like the other children, you aren’t part of the family.

How is he going to discipline you if there is no law?

I think it is you who without cause or authority desires to do away with God's Ten Commandments. Paul never teaches to get rid of God's law, not once. If grace is all you need then why did he kick out some church members that were not keeping God's law?
You twist Paul unto your own destruction brother!

#14 Tubal

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 01:43 PM

The gospel for us today is freedom from the law. Anyone who preaches any other gospel, let him be accursed.

Paulinism is a lie of the devil and you have been deceived. Paul never says "my gospel". He cannot preach contrary to him that sent him. You have all distorted his writings for your own destruction. Freedom from the law of the sacrifice. The price of our life Jesus has paid, and so he has made us free from THAT LAW.

Romans 6:20-22

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

But if they were servants to sin then there must have been a law or how would they know? The law causes us to have knowledge of whether we are sinning or not. Notice they have been made free from sin NOT FROM THE LAW!

Question: In the Garden, how many prohibitive laws did God give to Adam?

The law has two purposes and two only: God’s law, if enforced justly and swiftly, deters crime. The second purpose is to convict us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. But Jesus is the “end of the law for righteousness.” If we have to keep the law for salvation, then Jesus did not have to keep the law for us and go to the Cross. Right?

Adam didn't need many prohibitive laws because there was no sin. It wouldn't make sense to tell Adam not to steal or worship false God's right after creation. As for the purpose of the law, show me where that is in the Bible and I'll agree, assuming it isn't another text you distorted. So what then? Shall we live how ever we want because Jesus died on the cross? God forbid! Brother this makes no sense in the light that we are called to walk as Jesus walked. I have referenced a number of Bible texts but you haven't give me any. Because there are no Bible texts defending what you assume.

No record of any prohibition against working on the Sabbath exists until God fed Israel with manna 2,500 years after creation. A careful study reveals that 110 chapters of the Bible report this early period of human history (Genesis 2 through 50, Exodus 1-19, and Job 1:42) without a single mention of a weekly prohibition of work or of any Sabbath observance. The Bible’s first mention of the word Sabbath occurs in God’s command to Israel that forbade the collection of manna on the Sabbath (Ex. 16:23). That reference does not use the definite article. If God had said, “Tomorrow is the Sabbath,” normal grammatical rules would indicate that they had prior knowledge of the Sabbath. Rather, God omitted the definite article and used the full form, Shabbaton Shabbat kodesh “a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath” in the way of a formal introduction of the concept to Israel.

The Sabbath is not about not working but a relationship with God. The commandment is "remember", if it was a new law why did they have to remember? Does that make sense in light of what you are saying?

Today, God holds in abeyance His covenant with Israel. So since He has temporarily set that nation aside, what does that imply concerning the Sabbath? The Body is not Israel! First, Paul explained that God “cut off” Israel (Romans 11:11-26). Later, he defended the man “who does not observe the day (Rom. 14:5-6). Since God gave the Sabbath as a sign for Israel, and then cut her off, He will not require men to keep the Sabbath again until Israel is “grafted in again” (Rom. 11:23 with Ex. 31:16-17; Lev. 24:8-9; 2 Chr. 2:4; Isaiah 66:22-23).

No where is the Sabbath mentioned in those texts and I will not accept them because you know full well he is talking about fasting. Stop lying to yourself. None of those texts point to what you are saying.

Romans 11:11-26

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Says here Israel rejected and was blind and that even God would break them from his tree. God doesn't care about a specific nation but his people. Anyone can be his if they want, accept Jesus and keep the commandments. This texts holds no weight in your argument. You cannot deny that the Sabbath was before the Jew.

Paul defends the one “who does not observe the day” (Rom. 14:5-6) based on God’s emancipation of the Body of Christ from Sabbath keeping (Col. 2:16-17) as well as from all the required symbols of the law. A man in the Body should love God and his neighbor. He should not murder, steal or fornicate (Rom. 13:8-10). He should have no other gods before the LORD, nor should he take the LORD’s name in vain. God expects him to live this way, but He does not expect him to submit to the law since the law cannot produce righteousness. Members of the Body of Christ are “dead to the law through the body of Christ” (Rom. 7:4) and “have been delivered from the law” (Rom. 7:6). Adultery, however, retains its destructive effect. While God took the law “out of the way, having nailed it to the Cross” (Col. 2:14) the moral behavior described in the law remains good and right. (For sure, a believer’s life should exhibit the righteousness described by Tier One and Tier Two of the law.

I already debunked that text in the first 2 posts! Did you even read the OP!?

Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

This text, nor the whole book of Romans mention the word Sabbath or the seventh day. He was talking about fasting. Go read the OP.
God's law is not up for debate, you follow it or be lost. God would never tell people to be fully persuaded to their own mind in terms of his Ten Commandments. If you read the whole book you will clearly see its context.


You guys are not reading my posts or are ignoring my arguments.

Which promise? God made two covenants with Abraham:

Under the first covenant in Genesis 15, God put Abraham to sleep. While asleep, Abraham could do nothing except believe. “And he believed God; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” Fourteen years later, in Genesis 17, God commanded Abraham to circumcise. This is the second covenant.

The first covenant is the Covenant of grace which Paul would preach. Paul would also refer to it as the Gospel of Uncircumcision (Gal. 2:7 & 9). The command to circumcise is the second covenant or the Gospel of Circumcision (works plus faith). The Gospel of Uncircumcision is justification by faith alone. The Apostle Paul would write of this in Romans 4:

“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of the circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised”

Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh or foreskin. Why did God give this strange ritual? Circumcision is a synonym for the Law. Israel had to circumcise and keep the law, as the effort to keep the law is a “cutting off of the flesh.” Paul wrote, “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit [God], and the Spirit against the flesh…” (Gal. 5:17-19).

Even Moses spoke of the circumcision of the heart to obey God and we need that same obedience today. The physical circumcision was part of the ceremonial law.


This would be like asking the King of Saudi Arabia why you have to obey his laws when you are in his country. Right?

I agree it would be but think about this. God is a God of order. We live in his universe so we have to obey his laws.

You have placed Paul under Acts 20:29-30. He taught that we are saved by grace and not by works lest any man should boast.

I have been saying the whole time no one is saved by works. That is not a new gospel, he is repeating the same thing the WHOLE Bible says. No one has ever been saved by works. NO ONE. I must place the man under his own writings because you all seek to distort him and I don't want you guys to be lost.


Before posting please re read everything, this whole thread from the beginning. Then pray and ask the Holy Spirit and then go back and read the whole thread again. I highly recommend the extra reading links that explain Romans 14. Please read, they are for your profit.

God Bless.

#15 Tubal

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 02:28 PM

Since you are making a distinction between the ten commandments and the other parts of the law such as ceremonial laws then how is it a strawman? How much of the law is a Christian supposed to keep? What scripture do you base that on?

There is an obvious difference between the Ten Commandments and the Ceremonial law. If there was not then we would be allowed to do what ever we felt like it, that is madness to think it is possible and be saved. The Ten commandments are separate from the ceremonial law. God did it that way not I. The Christian is to keep all of the law because Jesus kept all the law and he is our example.
That is what it means to be a Christian, to follow Jesus. Not to distort the writings of one apostle and follow that.

I disagree. I would say that legalism is trying to serve God by following the written code of the law instead of in the new way by the Spirit.

The Spirit makes us walk in the law, not out of it. Provide Bible texts for this thing you are teaching, remember I was raised SDA from birth so I am not familiar with ANY other "interpretation" of the word. Though to me it seems you have distorted Paul because he is easy to misunderstand. How come none of this "free from the law" stuff can't be based on any other writer? It surely isn't based on the teachings of Jesus.

No they did not keep the law. If they kept the law then they would not need grace.

So people in the OT did not keept the Ten Commandments? You know you done goofed right? Grace saves us only from our past sins not from the future ones we commit. Of course they kept the law and sacrificed the lamb. Now that we have our Lamb Jesus Christ all we need to do is keep the law.

Do you?

And those who don't, what do you say about them?

Everyman will be judged according to the light that they have. My job is not to judge but to give light.
I try to please God the best way I can.

By whether or not we serve him in the new way by the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. When the Lord through an angel instructed Philip to take a certain route and minister a certain Ethiopian eunuch, was he serving God in the old way of the written code, or the new way? What written commandment was Philip following?



So am I, and have been one since before you were born. If you simply assume that every use of the word "commandment" is referring to the ten commandments then you just might end up with a bug in your code.

Maybe but this macro is defined ;). The law of the Ten Commandments lets us identify it anywhere we see it because it identifies sin. Do not let my age cover your eyes and ears from hearing truth.

#16 Stripe

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:43 PM

Paulinism is a lie of the devil and you have been deceived.

What's "Paulism"?

Paul never says "my gospel".

...except here:

Romans 2:16
in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel


Here:

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began

Here:

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel.


And explains how it is his gospel here:

1 Timothy 1:11
according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.


You have all distorted his writings for your own destruction.

I said one thing, "The gospel for us today is freedom from the law. Anyone who preaches any other gospel, let him be accursed." That's based upon two well established ideas:

Romans 7:1-6
Freed from the Law

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 1:8-9
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Freedom from the law of the sacrifice. The price of our life Jesus has paid, and so he has made us free from THAT LAW.

Galatians 5:1-6
Christian Liberty

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

But if they were servants to sin then there must have been a law or how would they know? The law causes us to have knowledge of whether we are sinning or not. Notice they have been made free from sin NOT FROM THE LAW!


Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.



#17 Tubal

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:21 PM

What's "Paulism"?

The belief that we are free from the Ten Commandments because supposedly that is what Paul taught.

...except here:

Romans 2:16

in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to mygospel.


Here:

Romans 16:25

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to mygospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began

Here:

2 Timothy 2:8

Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to mygospel,


And explains how it is his gospel here:

1 Timothy 1:11
according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.


Ok I'll give you that one, he does say "my gospel". Paul could be sort of a cocky guy at times.

I have also found an interesting text.

Romans 2:14

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:



I said one thing, "The gospel for us today is freedom from the law. Anyone who preaches any other gospel, let him be accursed." That's based upon two well established ideas:
Romans 7
Freed from the Law

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

But we have to be careful and see which law it is that he is talking about. If you live by the Spirit you will keep the Ten Commandments.
Go read the reference I make to the Spirit in the other posts.
Romans 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is what Paul is talking about. We want to serve God with our mind but we lust after things of the flesh. Either God rules us and are under his law or our flesh rules us and we are under it's law. God's law is the law of righteousness and the law of the flesh the law of sin.

John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


Galatians 1:8-9
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


Indeed, but I am not teaching anything new to what the apostles taught. It is those that say we do not have to keep the law. And it is confusing too because you want them and you don't want them. We are free from only one out of the ten?

Galatians 5

Christian Liberty



1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.


Same thing I have said all day. No one is saved or justified by works. Jesus has not only freed us from the ceremonial law but the Jew as well. The new covenant is the writing of the law in the heart and the forehead. That will be the test.

Hebrews 8:9-11

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.


The law of God makes you free from the law of the flesh.
maybe this will help illustrate.
death<-law of flesh<-you->law of Spirit->salvation

the law of flesh is simply what you want to do that is contrary to the will of God or "law of Spirit"

Be careful how you distort the texts you distort. Surely you cannot mean to imply that the law of God helps us sin?

#18 Tubal

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:27 PM

By whether or not we serve him in the new way by the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. When the Lord through an angel instructed Philip to take a certain route and minister a certain Ethiopian eunuch, was he serving God in the old way of the written code, or the new way? What written commandment was Philip following?


I forgot to address this. UppSala what did you mean to say with this? The Ethiopian was already a Jew meaning he kept the law. What's your point?

#19 Salsa

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:19 AM

I read this and it seems to me more speaking about keeping the Sabbath, by "belief" too. What is your argument?


My argument is that keeping the Sabbath never gave the Jew rest. It was imposed on them because of their lack of faith. As I pointed out, the law was not a part of the Abrahamic covenant, it came at the height of the rebellion. Otherwise God would not have spoken of ANOTHER DAY. What day? Was it saturday? Sunday? No, it was "Today":

"Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his."

There is an obvious difference between the Ten Commandments and the Ceremonial law. If there was not then we would be allowed to do what ever we felt like it, that is madness to think it is possible and be saved


I said nothing about doing whatever we feel like. How is serving in the new way by the Spirit synonymous with doing what we feel like?

Now you have been trying to make the point that part of the law no longer applies, right? So explain again what you think my strawman was.

The Spirit makes us walk in the law, not out of it.


The Spirit does nothing of the sort. Where did you get that idea? We choose whether or not to follow the Spirit.

Trying to follow the law missuses what it was intended for - to be a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Once we find Christ it is WRONG to try to go back and follow the law. This is made clear in Galatians.

How come none of this "free from the law" stuff can't be based on any other writer? It surely isn't based on the teachings of Jesus.


The teachings of Paul ARE the teachings of Jesus. Jesus obeyed the Father. He spoke the words that were given to him and worked according to the timeplan that was given to him. The full revelation of the Gospel was handed over to Paul - the last person anyone would expect to have received it - because it was God's pleasure to do so.

So people in the OT did not keept the Ten Commandments? You know you done goofed right?


No I don't think so. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;"

and

"no one is justified before God by the law" Gal 3:11

Trying to keep the law is not keeping the law!

Everyman will be judged according to the light that they have. My job is not to judge but to give light. I try to please God the best way I can.


That's nice, but you are trying to dodge the question. Your assertion was that "if you are in Jesus you will live as he lived and keep all that he kept. The full and complete law of God".

My question is whether you do keep the full and complete law of God, not whether or not you "do your best".

I forgot to address this. UppSala what did you mean to say with this? The Ethiopian was already a Jew meaning he kept the law. What's your point?


My point is that Philip was not busy tring to follow any written code when he obeyed the Lord. He was obeying the commandments of God in a new way, not in the old way, and that is what you see repeatedly heppening throughout the account of the acts of the apostles.

#20 Stripe

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 06:14 AM

The belief that we are free from the Ten Commandments because supposedly that is what Paul taught.

The law has nothing to do with salvation. We are still bound by the law of the land.

But we have to be careful and see which law it is that he is talking about. If you live by the Spirit you will keep the Ten Commandments.
Go read the reference I make to the Spirit in the other posts.

No matter how you live, what you do or what law you keep, you can never attain salvation through the law. Anyone who tries, curses themselves.

Indeed, but I am not teaching anything new to what the apostles taught. It is those that say we do not have to keep the law. And it is confusing too because you want them and you don't want them. We are free from only one out of the ten?

No adherence to any law will ever add anything to our salvation which is complete in Jesus Christ.

Same thing I have said all day. No one is saved or justified by works. Jesus has not only freed us from the ceremonial law but the Jew as well. The new covenant is the writing of the law in the heart and the forehead. That will be the test.

Then why are you teaching that the law is still active?

Are you just talking about a personal preference?

Be careful how you distort the texts you distort. Surely you cannot mean to imply that the law of God helps us sin?

What are you talking about? I added nothing to the scripture I quoted. The law brings death. The power of sin is in the law. Without the law there would be no sin. These are central concepts to Paul's gospel.




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