5 replies to this topic

[Tubal]

Atheists don't seem to have a problem with religion but Christianity in specific. The main argument they use is that a loving God does not command genocide and that he wouldn't burn people eternally for petty things. In this thread we will be looking at two issues. The first is when God commands the children of Israel to dispossess the people of the land of Canaan and slay them, man, women and child. The second is eternal hell fire and is it really eternal? Lets begin.

When God commands a judgement against a people or person it is usually carried out by someone or another group of people. We see that in the camp of Israel in the wilderness the penalty for sin was death and justly so. After all the miracles and wonders God had done for them, for them to sin even after all that was a sign of no return and a definite decision of perdition. God is love and patient but he is also consuming fire and justice.

Exodus 32:8

They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Amazing isn't it? That after all that they had experienced they so quickly ignore God. How does God deal with this?

Exodus 32:27

And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

God commanded to kill those that apostatized because they had chosen consciously to disobey God knowing him full well and seeing his mighty power, anyone that does this is irremediable and God will dispose of them before they infect the others. Is this genocide? No. God is just disciplining and purifying his people who had perverted themselves with the pagan in Egypt.

Understanding the judgements of God lets move to the "genocide" of the Canaanites. First the promise of the land unto Abraham.
Genesis 12:1-2

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing

Genesis 15:13-18

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates

So God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham. God didn't want to want to give it to Abraham just yet because the evil of the inhabitants of the land had not reached a point to which he could no longer tolerate. It did not take long for sin and corruption to take firm root after the flood, stronger than even how things were before the flood. Sodom and Gomorrah make fine examples of when God has had enough. Not a single righteous was found among them so they were destroyed. Such perversions had to be eradicated early on in history because if not God knew that it would grow exponentially so he did it to hinder the wicked works of Satan.

400 years the descendants of Abraham are in bondage to the Egyptians while the inhabitants of Canaan grow in perversion while God reaches his limits. What exactly fueled the anger of God to cast judgement against the peoples of Canaan? Was it genocide?

Deuteronomy 12:29-31

When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Human sacrifices of virgins and babies was very prominent in those days. People worshiped their gods and appeased them by killing their new born and slaying a virgin. Some ceremonies they did to their gods have persisted and have been promoted by that harlot, Catholicism. Easter is the feast of Ishtar where people would color eggs in the blood of their children to offer them to their god. So this was enough for God to utterly destroy them. The children too? Yes because they would have been raised in the same way of their parents. Children who are sinless are commanded to death by God for their own good to save them from the sins of their parents. This was not a race issue. God created all men. No one is saved by race, Moses himself was married to an Ethiopian (see Numbers 12:1). So God used the children of Israel to carry his justice upon the inhabitants of Canaan who were ripe with sin.

Atheists that argue that God is not love must then accept that there is a God and that there is a heaven to make this argument. If there is a God and there is a heaven then those children that died will surely be there. So the argument dismantles itself with a bit of logic.


Will sinners be burning for ever and ever?

Revelation 14:10-11

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This text is not what it may seem at first, for this we need a parallel.

Isaiah 34:5-10

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Question. Is Idumea still burning? No. The consequences however of God's judgements are forever.

Is the fire eternal? Well lets go to where eternal fire is mentioned in the Bible.

Jude 1:7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Question. Is Sodom or Gomorrha still burning? No. How about the consequences of their sins? Forever. Sodom and Gomorrha are gone for ever.

So the doctrine of eternal torture of sinners is not Biblical nor sounds like God. God judges you but after that, its over.

Question. If the people are going to be burning on earth forever when will the saved inhabit the planet? Doesn't make sense right? This is just one of many example to show how illogical and silly the lie of eternal hell fire is.

God Bless and happy Sabbath.

[Dig4gold]

“When God commands a judgement [sic] against a people or person it is usually carried out by someone or another group of people”. Tubal

This is very true most of the time.

“God commanded to kill those that apostatized because they had chosen consciously to disobey God knowing him full well and seeing his mighty power, anyone that does this is irremediable and God will dispose of them before they infect the others. Is this genocide? No. God is just disciplining and purifying his people who had perverted themselves with the pagan in Egypt.” Tubal

I agree with this. (although I had to look up “irremediable”).

“Question. Is Idumea still burning? No. The consequences however of God's judgements [sic] are forever.” Tubal on Isaiah 34:5-10

From my understanding this is a future judgment (near/far) from the Lord Himself. This is an exception from the first point that God uses other people/nations for His judgment.

“Question. Is Sodom or Gomorrha still burning? No. How about the consequences of their sins? Forever. Sodom and Gomorrha are gone for ever.

So the doctrine of eternal torture of sinners is not Biblical nor sounds like God. God judges you but after that, its over.” Tubal on Jude 1:7

Jude 1:5-7 ⁵ Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that ^[e]the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, ^[f]subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. ⁶ And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, ⁷ just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after ^[g]strange flesh, are exhibited as an ^[h]example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

I notice that Sodom and Gomorrah are compared to the angels who did not keep their own domain. Angels are eternal beings. This brings into question if humans are eternal beings or perhaps better said “everlasting beings”. If we are made in the image of God then we certainly do have a spirit which is everlasting. The body is temporal but the spirit is not.

“Question. If the people are going to be burning on earth forever when will the saved inhabit the planet?” Tubal

Rev 14:10-12 ¹⁰ he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed ^[a]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and ^[b]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ¹¹ And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and ^[c]whoever receives the mark of his name.” ¹² Here is the ^[d]perseverance of the ^[e]saints who keep the commandments of God and ^[f]their faith in Jesus.

Rev 20:11-15 ¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose ^[g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and ^[h]books were opened; and another ^[i]book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the ^[j]books, according to their deeds. ¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. ¹⁵ And if ^[k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It seems that after their earthly death the eternal judgment may not necessarily be on our physical earth/plane.

I do believe that it says somewhere that they will be burying their dead for a number of years after the Lord’s judgment. But that is the physical bodies the everlasting spirits will be in torment for ever because they are “everlasting beings”. It is appointed unto man to die once and then after that the judgment. Heb 9:27How do we interpret that in a temporal sense?

[Hawkins]

Ancient Israel acts as a planted seed for God's salvation to humans till today. Without ancient Israel, the message of Christianity cannot reach today's humans. If Israel was destroyed, there won't be any existence of Christianity. As a result, if God foresees that Israel is in a risk of being destroyed, then its enemy will eradicated before hand.

If the inhabitants of Canaan grow wicked and wicked day by day till no one can be saved. Then Israel is allowed to destroyed them at will. Abraham's descendents will be given the lands as promised.

God is completely incompatible with sin. He however promised Noah to bear with human sins till each of us finished our life on earth. Then He will no longer bear with our sin. Which means, sinners must leave God after finishing their earthly life. Then where would they be. They will be in a complete separation from God such that God will not be in touch with them such that He doesn't need to bear with sin.

Then what will these humans be? Without God, just like the angels without God, they will all turn to the devils and to be burnt forever. This is the possible outcome.

[gilbo12345]

I have heard that hell may not be about fire and brimstone, rather just a detachment / absence of God. Since it's claimed that from God stems all good things a detachment from God would mean a loss of such things. Imagine an eternity without love, friendship, compassion, generosity etc sounds very much like hell to me :-)

This interpretation of hell does away with the atheist complaints since its a fair call if God wishes to disassociate himself from someone who doesn't believe in him. The unbearable nature of their existence after that is a mere side effect.

I personally like the irony. All that will be left is an eternity full of sin, the very thing they couldn't give up in mortal life.

However this can be totally wrong.

[UppsalaDragby]

Yeah, I once saw a documentary series about people who get in trouble abroad. This episode is about a couple of young guys that got involved in smuggling drugs in Venesuela:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uMP44VR9J-M

When they were caught they wound up in a prison where there was absolutely no control over what happened behind the prison walls. There were constant gang wars and people were getting stabbed to death all the time. These poor guys lived in constant fear, not to mention the other inhumane conditions they had to live under.

I often think about what Jesus said about believers being the "salt of the earth", and that if the earth lost its saltiness then it would deteriorate and become worthess. Perhaps it is a reference to the rapture where atheists get their wishes and finally rid the earth of all those pesky christians.

In relation to that I also think about when Abraham was concerned about Lot and kept on nagging the Lord whether or not he would destroy Sodom if there were righteous people living there. (Genesis 18:16-33)

To any of the atheists out there: be careful what you wish for!

[gilbo12345]

_{That state prison is somewhat what I think is Hell. Somewhat since even in there there is still the ability for friendship (those guys he got the gun from), etc. I see Hell as that atmosphere and absolutely no good whatsoever within.}