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Teaching Evolution...


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#21 Springer

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 07:13 PM

Darwin's theory was integral in developing hyoptheses about microevolution.  Research into microevolution has brought scientists insights into the nature of bacteria to evolve resistance to antibiotics.

Firstly, antibiotic resistence in bacteria is microevolution and has nothing to do with goo-to-you evolution. Secondly, the knowledge of antibiotic resistence has not depended one iota on a knowledge of evolutionary theory. We would know no less about it if the ToE were non-existent. If you disagree, tell me specifically what we've learned about antimicrobial resistence that we would not have learned without molecules to man evolution.

Than what explanation for the development of life on Earth should be used?


Certainly not a one-sided indoctrination that proclaims the absence of ID without a shred of proof. That is the antithesis of science. It would be far better and more intelligent to admit that we don't know the origin of life than to preach theories that are totally unproven. This is especially true when those theories have the potential to cause great harm to man's perception of himself.


Not all atheists have a contempt for religion.  This atheist has contempt for the deeds that have been done in the name of an invisible, omnipotent force.  This atheist has contempt for most of the ideas proclaimed in a book which is the basis for your beliefs. 


You are verifying my assertion that atheism is a religion.

This atheist has yet to see any evidence for the existance of any god and that is why this atheist does not accept the existance of one. 


You don't see evidence because you don't want to see it. Your contempt for religion and God is obvious. Have you ever read the Bible? Have you got on your knees and prayed to God to touch your mind and ask if he exists? Have you earnestly tried to follow his commandments as outlined in the scriptures? If you have not done these things, how can you say there is no evidence of his existence when you haven't even looked?
You cannot explain how life on earth began. No one can from a materialism/naturalism perspective. Yet you insist that it had to be without God, even though you haven't the foggiest idea how it could have been possible. This is because you chose to believe this, not because nature proclaims it to be true.

#22 SPQR

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 08:40 PM

You are verifying my assertion that atheism is a religion.


I fail to see how, especially since I made it very clear the opinions I expressed were entirely my own, not the views of every, single atheist.

You don't see evidence because you don't want to see it.


You can claim I don't see evidence because I don't want to see it, but in the same post say this:

Certainly not a one-sided indoctrination that proclaims the absence of ID without a shred of proof.

Amazing.
When you provide evidence for the presence of ID to counter the evidence that I and others have provided for evolution, I'll respond to that statement.



Your contempt for religion and God is obvious.


I know. I never said I did not have contempt for those things, at least religion. I have no contempt for god because I do not accept the claim that he exists. I cannot have contempt for something that does not exist.




Have you ever read the Bible?  Have you got on your knees and prayed to God to touch your mind and ask if he exists?  Have you earnestly tried to follow his commandments as outlined in the scriptures?


Yes, yes, and yes. That is why I'm an athiest, I realized I was not receiving any answers. Any more assumptions you would like to make about me?




You cannot explain how life on earth began.  No one can from a materialism/naturalism perspective.  Yet you insist that it had to be without God, even though you haven't the foggiest idea how it could have been possible.  This is because you chose to believe this, not because nature proclaims it to be true.


The theory of evolution does not even claim to explain how life on earth began. I certainly do have an idea on how it could have been possible, life beginning on earth that is, and so do many other people smarter than me in this world. However, the theory of evolution is not it. Have you even read The Origin of Species?

Firstly, antibiotic resistence in bacteria is microevolution and has nothing to do with goo-to-you evolution.  Secondly, the knowledge of antibiotic resistence has not depended one iota on a knowledge of evolutionary theory.  We would know no less about it if the ToE were non-existent.  If you disagree, tell me specifically what we've learned about antimicrobial resistence that we would not have learned without molecules to man evolution.


I have an idea. Since I've read the bible, why don't you do a little research of your own and try to find the answer to your question? See if the evidence is really not there, or if you just refuse to see it.



By the way, you still have failed in producing sources for those pieces of "literature" you mentioned in your very first post in this thread.

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#23 Springer

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 09:01 PM

  The theory of evolution does not even claim to explain how life on earth began.  I certainly do have an idea on how it could have been possible, life beginning on earth that is, and so do many other people smarter than me in this world. 

No one has the slightest clue how life could have evolved on its own. The convenient divorcement of evolutionary theory from abiogenesis is only because when it became obvious that there was not continuity between life and non-life, the ToE hit a brick wall. They could not invoke natural selection on the evolution of pre-biotic life because there is no reproduction. Therefore, it was felt that seperation of evolutionary theory from abiogenesis was the only way to salvage the theory. You think the ToE is intact despite the fact that life could not possibly have formed on its own based on what we know from observable science.
You seem so certain that there is no God, yet you cannot provide any explanation of how life began without ID. Thus, you have faith that it was started by random molecular interactions. This faith is not based on any evidence... it is based on a lack of belief in a Supreme Intelligence.

#24 SPQR

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 11:35 AM

Thus, you have faith that it was started by random molecular interactions.  This faith is not based on any evidence... it is based on a lack of belief in a Supreme Intelligence.


I still have yet to see evidence for the existance of a Supreme Intelligence. What about that do you not understand?

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#25 Springer

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 11:52 AM

I still have yet to see evidence for the existance of a Supreme Intelligence.  What about that do you not understand?

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The existence of life, which could not have possibly formed on its own. Why can't you see this as evidence of ID?

#26 ikester7579

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 12:05 PM

Darwin's theory was integral in developing hyoptheses about microevolution.  Research into microevolution has brought scientists insights into the nature of bacteria to evolve resistance to antibiotics.


I guess resistance most be a big step for evolution. But no one can actually prove how much time it takes for chimp to evolve to man.


Not all atheists have a contempt for religion.  This atheist has contempt for the deeds that have been done in the name of an invisible, omnipotent force. 


And I have a problem with all the deaths connected to evolution.

1) Hitler used it to kill over 6 million people of one race.
2) Abortionist used Haeckel's faked drawing to get laws past to abort babies in the last trimester.

So evolution even has the blood of aborted babies on it's hands, as well as God's chosen people. So don't act as if evolution has never hurts anyone. And I have only touched the surface of those who have been killed in it's name.

This atheist has contempt for most of the ideas proclaimed in a book which is the basis for your beliefs.


Maybe that is because you like to sin?

This atheist has yet to see any evidence for the existance of any god and that is why this atheist does not accept the existance of one. 


So are you looking for evidence evolution cannot explain? Or do you just want to see God?

#27 SPQR

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 07:02 PM

And I have a problem with all the deaths connected to evolution.

1) Hitler used it to kill over 6 million people of one race.
2) Abortionist used Haeckel's faked drawing to get laws past to abort babies in the last trimester.


You've got to be kidding.

1)First, Hitler did not "use" evolution to kill anyone. If that were true, he would have let natural selection take its course and weed out all those who he thought were less fit than he and people like him were. Second, Hitler did not just massacre Jews, which are not a race by the way. He killed anyone who he thought would interfer with his "final solution" including h*m*sexuals, Roman Catholics, Protestants, the handicapped, Soviet prisoners of war, the mentally impaired, and trade unionists.source Third, Darwin's ideas had nothing to with Hitler seeing himself as better than everyone else. Hitler would have been a megalomaniac with an overblown ego even if Darwin had never existed.

2)I would really like to see some evidence to support the link you're claiming here.

So evolution even has the blood of aborted babies on it's hands, as well as God's chosen people. So don't act as if evolution has never hurts anyone. And I have only touched the surface of those who have been killed in it's name.


Give me ONE instance in history where someone directly dedicated or otherwise attributed a murder that person was about to commit to the theory of evolution and I'll provide one for religon. I'll go first.

THE CRUSADES.

Now your turn.

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 07:29 PM

I still have yet to see evidence for the existance of a Supreme Intelligence.  What about that do you not understand?

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What would you consider evidence that God exists?

Terry

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 07:45 PM

Give me ONE instance in history where someone directly dedicated or otherwise attributed a murder that person was about to commit to the theory of evolution and I'll provide one for religon.  I'll go first.

THE CRUSADES. 

Now your turn.


I'm going to take the last comment on this one.

1) I would guess that ~50 times more people have been killed in the name of no God with Darwinism as its system of origins in the last 100 or so years than all of what have been killed in the name of God, rightly or wrongly, in the entirety of human history.

2) Most of the killing done in the name of religion was Satanic.

3) Christianity is not a religion, its a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I don't like religion either, Godless religions such as yours, or false religions, especially false Chrisitianity.

Terry

#30 SPQR

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 08:11 PM

What would you consider evidence that God exists?


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God revealing himself to me in my everyday life in a fairly obvious way; i.e. materializing out of nothing and saying, "Hey dude, I exist, okay?

#31 Springer

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 08:16 PM

God revealing himself to me in my everyday life in a fairly obvious way; i.e. materializing out of nothing and saying, "Hey dude, I exist, okay?

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So, in order for you to believe in God, he must conform to your preconceived notions. Unless he shows you in your specified way, you regard this as positive evidence that he doesn't exist? Can you honestly claim to be an objective person who seeks after truth?

#32 SPQR

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 08:22 PM

So, in order for you to believe in God, he must conform to your preconceived notions.  Unless he shows you in your specified way, you regard this as positive evidence that he doesn't exist?  Can you honestly claim to be an objective person who seeks after truth?

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All I want is a demonstration that cannot possible be mistaken for anything else. God used to speak through burning bushes and turn whole bodies of water into blood, something like that would work. By the way, why do you think he doesn't do that kind of stuff anymore?

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 08:31 PM

God revealing himself to me in my everyday life in a fairly obvious way; i.e. materializing out of nothing and saying, "Hey dude, I exist, okay?

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He's done that through creation.

The laws of physics preclude the universe from creating itself, it materialized out of nothing.

Life has the characteristics of a designer. E.g. biological life is an information processing system, and information can only have a mental origin, i.e. information is not a property of matter.

Hence, you are logically the product of something that is beyond this universe, since you are constructed of matter that was created out of nothing, and your soul life is supported by biological life that works from information that requires a mental origin.

That mental origin has a name, Jesus Christ, and he died on the cross for your sins. He had you personally in mind when he did it, and he's offering you eternal life today. All you have to do is recognize you are a sinner, ask God to forgive you based on the the work of Christ, confess him as Lord, and you will be saved.

Terry

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Posted 08 December 2006 - 08:45 PM

This thread has drifted off topic. I'm going to let it go for a little more, but the discussion about who's religion has killed the most people should stop.

If someone want's to continue it, then you are welcome to open another thread.

Terry

#35 D R

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 12:38 AM

God revealing himself to me in my everyday life in a fairly obvious way; i.e. materializing out of nothing and saying, "Hey dude, I exist, okay?

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Seeing isn’t believing. Believing is seeing.

Once it believe, you will see proof of his existence all around you. After finally being able to see it, you may even find yourself asking how you could have been so blind to it before.

#36 ikester7579

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Posted 09 December 2006 - 12:55 AM

I'm starting another thread to continue this subject. It seems that some people think that evolution has never been used as a motive to kill. So to set this straight, I start another thread in that very subject so that this one can continue.

#37 jason78

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 12:10 PM

What would you consider evidence that God exists?

Terry

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I know this is off topic (apologies in advance) and probably deserves a whole thread of it's own, but I've been giving this question a lot of serious thought.

Since nearly every religion considers that the mere fact we are here is evidence for god, it doesn't help me make an objective decision on which religion is right.

I'm guessing I can't convert after I'm dead, so seeing god in person is out of the question.

What convinced you?

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:39 PM

Since nearly every religion considers that the mere fact we are here is evidence for god, it doesn't help me make an objective decision on which religion is right.

I'm guessing I can't convert after I'm dead, so seeing god in person is out of the question.

What convinced you?


An interesting question, and one I'm happy to discuss, here or privately.

Simply put, God did... He gave me the pointer in creation, revealed to my need for a savior, and the truth of forgiveness through his son.

My sin drove me to the point that I was about to self-destruct. I asked God to forgive me, and asked him for his help. My life hasn't been the same since....

If your are interested in knowing God, he will personally reveal himself to you. If you are not interested, he will not reveal himself personally to you, but he's already revealed himself impersonally through creation.

There is no magic bullet to make infallible rational or emperical arguments to convice anyone. God setup salvation such that you have to come to him by faith. Faith is the great equalizer of the human race. If you are one degree above an idiot, or a total genious, you get to God the same way, by non-meritorious faith.

The human race is divided into 2 classes, those who believe and those who don't. What keeps you from believing? How will you stand before God when you die? Jesus said:

JOH 8:24 "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

That's about as simple as I can explain it. I hope you'll really think about your eternal future.

Terry

#39 Springer

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 07:07 PM

If I might add to what has been said....

There are many who seek signs. Those who lived at the time of Christ had signs and they did not believe. They witnessed the Savior heal the sick and raised the dead, and they refused to believe, imagining that it was by the power of Satan that he performed miracles. What is required is personal righteousness and faith.

As Terry pointed out, there are numerous signs already. The creation is certainly evidence of His existence. You also have many witnesses. Most view the Bible as one witness. Actually, it is a complilation of multiple witnesses.

My suggestion is that you humble yourself and study the New Testament, praying to God to reveal to your mind and heart if it is true. You must have a hope, and you cannot shut out the Holy Ghost by cynicism and unbelief. You must ponder the word of God and pray with all your heart if it is right. If you are sincere and persistent, he will reveal himself to you. The Savior promised this.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." (James1:5)

The Holy Ghost is a revelator and a comforter. As God's children, we all have the privilege of receiving the companionship of the Holy Ghost if we seek to do what's right and if we exercise faith. As you exercise faith, your faith will grow into knowlege.

I have no doubt in my mind that God lives, and that Jesus is His son.

#40 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 December 2006 - 11:31 PM

I know this is off topic (apologies in advance) and probably deserves a whole thread of it's own, but I've been giving this question a lot of serious thought.

Since nearly every religion considers that the mere fact we are here is evidence for god, it doesn't help me make an objective decision on which religion is right.

I'm guessing I can't convert after I'm dead, so seeing god in person is out of the question.

What convinced you?

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To add my two cents, both the Bible and scientific evidence is what convinced me. I would not believe if there was no evidence to support the Bible. I'm too much an evidence guy. The world around us is powerful evidence of intelligent design, and this evidence also suggests a single creator and not multiple creators. Once this is established, who is the Creator? Only the Bible, of all the religious texts, offers compelling evidence it is the word of God, some of which I've documented on my sister website, www.bibleevidences.com

The Bible describes "faith" differently than the way the world describes faith. The world views faith as some blind belief, while the Bible defines faith as "the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). Even John the Baptist while in prison began to suffer doubts, so he asked messengers to go ask if Jesus was really the Messiah. Jesus didn't respond "ye of little faith". He instead responded with evidence "Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up (Matt 11:4-5)

Fred




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