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Theistic Evolution


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#1 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 02:58 AM

At this point; i would generally refer to the fossil record; but after some recent, encounters (so to speak), with fellow Christian's of the YEC philosophy, has made me wary of such head banging.

- In our lord's name.


I have yet to see a Theistic Evolutionist explain how evolution is compatible with the bible.

The bible teaches that death is a result of sin, and that creation fell aftwerwards. How do you resolve that with evolution?

Terry

#2 Origen

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 02:53 PM

I have yet to see a Theistic Evolutionist explain how evolution is compatible with the bible.

The bible teaches that death is a result of sin, and that creation fell aftwerwards.  How do you resolve that with evolution?

Terry

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If theistic evolution were true, I would want to know; but since I cannot find it in the Bible I refuse to believe. Evolution is the belief in natural selection which is a philosophy that nature evolved from a random accidenct of chance. In this view there is no God needed for creation since nature is god-itself. This view corrolates with pantheism as the ancients believed that god is all and all is god. It was this misconception of God that led people into idolatry and later evolutionism.

#3 Desperado

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 09:31 PM

The bible teaches that death is a result of sin, and that creation fell aftwerwards.  How do you resolve that with evolution?

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Terry, can you elaborate on "creation fell afterwards?" I'm not sure I follow.

#4 Fred Williams

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 10:26 PM

Terry, can you elaborate on "creation fell afterwards?"  I'm not sure I follow.

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Theistic evolution teaches millions of years of death, disease, suffering, etc. This clearly contradicts the Old and New Testament position that death, and the fall of creation, came into the world as the direct result of sin.

Over the years in this debate, I've found that the number one argument that has been the most effective in convicting the heart of Christians that they are wrong about either Old earth or theistic evolution, is the death before sin problem. Not only is it not supported scripturally, it degrades the character of the God of the Bible. The Bible says death is an enemy that will be destroyed (1 Cor 15:26). Death grieves our Lord, look up the shortest verse in the Bible and contemplate why "Jesus wept"). Yet if you are a theistic evolutionist you are forced to believe in countless millions of years of death, cancer, wars, suffering, etc. No wonder so many people, including Christians, get mad at God when a loved one dies, when you have this death image of God in your mind. But it is not the way God is portrayed in the Bible. It is our fault, not his, that there is death in the world. God is love, not death. God is the God of life, not death.

I've met many Christians who claim death before sin was the number one issue that led them to the YEC position.

Ps 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD Than to put confidence in man.

Fred

#5 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 02:38 AM

Terry, can you elaborate on "creation fell afterwards?"  I'm not sure I follow.


God subjected his creation to futility, and corruption:

ROM 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
ROM 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.


Why? Because of sin:

ROM 5:12 ¶ Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

1CO 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

1CO 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

Death entered the world through the sin of one man, Adam, but eternal life was made available through the death of one man, the Lord Jesus Christ:

1CO 15:45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

In the end, death will be conquered:

1CO 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
1CO 15:55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Evolution is not compatible with the Bible on this point.

Again, how do Theisitic Evolutionists, especially those who claim to be Christians, reconcile the Word of God with the word of man????

Terry

#6 Desperado

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 09:37 PM

Perhaps I'm leading us off course, but as I read these passages, I agree that death entered the world with the sin of Adam & Eve. However, IMO the scriptures speak of a spiritual not physical death. As in separation from God (banned from Eden in this case), as opposed to the cessation of biological activity.

I just want to make sure I understand your position before I comment. Do you beieve all animals, including humans, had eternal physical life prior to the sin of Adam?

#7 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 02:29 AM

Perhaps I'm leading us off course, but as I read these passages, I agree that death entered the world with the sin of Adam & Eve.  However, IMO the scriptures speak of a spiritual not physical death.  As in separation from God (banned from Eden in this case), as opposed to the cessation of biological activity.



For man, both physical death, and spiritual death are involved. Animals do not have spirits, so they cannot spiritually die.

I just want to make sure I understand your position before I comment.  Do you beieve all animals, including humans, had eternal physical life prior to the sin of Adam?


There was no soul death before the Adam's sin, but its important to note that the seat of life for animals in their blood.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

So if the blood of animals was spilled before the fall, then death would have existed before the fall.

Do you belive they had eternal physical life before Adam's sin?

Terry

#8 Desperado

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 06:30 AM

For man, both physical death, and spiritual death are involved. Animals do not have spirits, so they cannot spiritually die.


I agree.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

So if the blood of animals was spilled before the fall, then death would have existed before the fall.


To me, this simply reads as a commandment for man to make sacrifices for the atonement of sin. I agree that no MAN (Adam) had shed blood before this point, but why should we assume that animals followed this policy? If there was no physical death before the fall of man, what sustained the carnivores before that point?

#9 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 12:59 PM

If there was no physical death before the fall of man, what sustained the carnivores before that point?


They were herbivores before the fall.

GEN 1:29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
GEN 1:30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food ";and it was so.

After the fall they, over time I suppose, they became carnivores.

Plants are not biblically considered living beings in the sense we are discussing, so that still fits with scripture.

Terry




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