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#1 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 08:48 AM

I'm coming more to the conclusion all of the time that the universe was created with some apparent age.

When we read that God created Adam, and all of the rest of liing beings, then its reasonable to assume that they were all fully formed adult specimens. If they were fully formed adult specimens, then obviously they had whetever age we would consider adulthood for them. E.g. 18 years old for adam, and maybe 2-3 years old for a horse, etc.....

Now the question goes to the remainder of the universe. Why would God create the rest of the universe with an apparent age?

I think the biblical passage tells pretty much the story:

1CO 1:19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside."
1CO 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Notice that God is destroing the wisdom of the wise. How does he do this? I think one way is by laying a trap.

JER 50:23 "How the hammer of the whole earth Has been cut off and broken! How Babylon has become An object of horror among the nations!
JER 50:24 "I set a snare for you, and you were also caught, O Babylon, While you yourself were not aware; You have been found and also seized Because you have engaged in conflict with the Lord."

The unbeliever is trapped because he is engaging in conflict with the Lord.

1CO 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

It seems as if God has designed it such that the clverness of man works against man in coming to know him.

That's what's funny about all of this supposed science about the past. Evolutionists can create all of the clever arguments they want, but all they ar doing is tighting the rope around their own neck.

If the universe was created in the state that its in, how would you ever figure it out scientifically?

Terry

#2 Dave

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 09:23 AM

Answers in Genesis' email newsletter this week had an interesting and informative take on apparant age. It is at http://www.answersin...k/2006/1006.asp

Basically, AIG's response is that, yes, Adam, animals, plants and all of creation were created as mature specimens, but that it is unwise to extrapolate that into thinking that fossils, for example, were created the way they are in situ.

How that applies to starlight and ages of stars I'll have to leave to the experts. Cosmology makes my brain hurt. ;-)

One thing that is true, however -- and always will be whether we understand it or not -- is that the universe is only a few thousand years old, and was created in six days. If materialistic scientists want to take a left turn and go down rabbit trails looking for proof of old age that's fine for them. However, they need to know that creation scientists like Russ Humphries, if not having all the answers, are at least heading down the right trail and not wasting their time on false presuppositions.

Dave

#3 Guest_CrisW_*

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 09:42 AM

Now the question goes to the remainder of the universe.  Why would God create the rest of the universe with an apparent age?

If the universe was created in the state that its in, how would you ever figure it out scientifically?

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The power of god entitles him to do anything he wants, he could have created the entire universe, in situ, with apparent age last Thursday. But why would god lie to us like that?

If the universe was created in the state that its in, and that universe was self consistent it would have all the properties of a universe that had age. The two would be indistinguishable.

If I can't rely on reason, and I can't rely on the universe to tell me the truth and I can't use reason in my day to day life, how am I supposed to use the same reason to pick which god I should follow?

#4 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 11:26 AM

Basically, AIG's response is that, yes, Adam, animals, plants and all of creation were created as mature specimens, but that it is unwise to extrapolate that into thinking that fossils, for example, were created the way they are in situ.


I agree with that. I don't think the fossil record is an indication of age.

Terry

#5 Dave

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 11:33 AM

If I can't rely on reason, and I can't rely on the universe to tell me the truth and I can't use reason in my day to day life, how am I supposed to use the same reason to pick which god I should follow?

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Hi Cris,

Those are good questions. The answer is that you can't. The Bible makes it very clear that man's reasoning is faulty at best, and also that the heart is deceitfully wicked. Reason and "seeking truth" will only lead you down the path that Satan has laid out for you.

Fred in a different thread was showing Vision in Verse how to "find" God. First, you acknowledge that you are a sinner. Then, you accept that as a sinner you have fallen way short in God's eyes. You then know that there are only two places you can go when you die -- Heaven in the presence of God, or eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire. Then you recognize that only by repenting of your sins and accepting Christ's payment for them can you spend eternity with God.

Once that happens, Cris, the Holy Spirit begins to open your eyes to the real truth of God's word in the Bible. It doesn't mean you have all the answers. It only means you definitely know which answers are completely, absolutely, totally wrong.

Believe me. It is the most incredibly exciting thing you will ever do. And you'll never regret it.

Dave

#6 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 11:35 AM

The power of god entitles him to do anything he wants,  he could have created the entire universe, in situ, with apparent age last Thursday.  But why would god lie to us like that?


God is not lying to anyone if he created the universe in 6 days, told you so, and then you try to figure out that its something other than what he says it is.

If I can't rely on reason, and I can't rely on the universe to tell me the truth and I can't use reason in my day to day life, how am I supposed to use the same reason to pick which god I should follow?


God did not set it up so that you pick which God to follow. He set it up so that if you are interested in knowing him, he will reveal himself to you, and you can believe or not believe.

Reason tells you that science cannot prove what happened in the past, but you incorrectly reason that it can. Its not the correct use of your reasoning abilities that stand in the way of your knowing God, its the incorrect use of them. If you choose to incorrectly use what God gave you, its your fault not his.

Terry

#7 Guest_CrisW_*

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 11:58 AM

God is not lying to anyone if he created the universe in 6 days, told you so, and then you try to figure out that its something other than what he says it is.
God did not set it up so that you pick which God to follow.  He set it up so that if you are interested in knowing him, he will reveal himself to you, and you can believe or not believe.

Reason tells you that science cannot prove what happened in the past, but you incorrectly reason that it can.  Its not the correct use of your reasoning abilities that stand in the way of your knowing God, its the incorrect use of them.  If you choose to incorrectly use what God gave you, its your fault not his.

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Maybe I can't prove what has happend in the past. But I can prove that the principles of General Relativity held in the past, as they do now. From that I can reason that the universe must have acted in the same way 7000 years ago. If I can't accept Genesis as a literal creation, I can understand it as a kind of "lie to children". Moses doesn't need to know the in's and out's of cosmic expantsion, he just needs to know that god made everything and should be acknowledged as the creator.

We however do have a need for that knowledge. Setting up a GPS network would have been so much easier if god had given us a hint at General Relativity

Fred in a different thread was showing Vision in Verse how to "find" God. First, you acknowledge that you are a sinner. Then, you accept that as a sinner you have fallen way short in God's eyes. You then know that there are only two places you can go when you die -- Heaven in the presence of God, or eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire. Then you recognize that only by repenting of your sins and accepting Christ's payment for them can you spend eternity with God.

Once that happens, Cris, the Holy Spirit begins to open your eyes to the real truth of God's word in the Bible. It doesn't mean you have all the answers. It only means you definitely know which answers are completely, absolutely, totally wrong.


I would like to find god again. There have been many times in my life that would have been so much easier if I could abdicate responsibility to a higher power. When my mother was dying I joined her every day in prayer, and I hoped that they were heard. I can't honestly say that I believe that I did any good by spending my time like that.

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 06:04 PM

  But why would god lie to us like that?

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This is a comment intended to call God a liar in a round about way. And to try and make the poster feel guilt in using a comment you do not agree with. This will be your one warning about making such comments.

#9 Guest_CrisW_*

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 06:18 PM

This is a comment intended to call God a liar in a round about way. And to try and make the poster feel guilt in using a comment you do not agree with. This will be your one warning about making such comments.

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It was a hypothetical argument against a god that would create a universe with aparrent age. I'm not calling God a liar. I'm sure he has very good reasons for the things that he does.

But at the end of the day God can do anything he wants.

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 08:08 PM

I'm coming more to the conclusion all of the time that the universe was created with some apparent age.


I agree. And things did not start to mesh in the word of God until I applied this. You see, time was created but one thing was different until the first sin was committed.

1) In the creation, time was created, but death was not part of it.

2) After the first sin, and and the curse of death because of it. Time now applied to life having an end. And beyond that point, nothing more was created with age, and without time.

Sin and death changed the rules for creation. For even when Christ came to earth. He had to go through the natural process of being born. And growing up. When He could have come as a man, and just died for us. So the first sin changed the creation laws of creating things with age, but without the passage of time.

Another example is Jona. God did not create a whale to swallow him. He prepared it. Which means he took what was already created, and prepared it to swallow Jona. So evidently time plus death makes different rules apply to creation. And is why anything created after death was cursed upon us, was not created with age.

#11 MRC_Hans

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 02:23 AM

Obviously, it is within the almighty God's ability to create the universe with an apparant age, and obviously, it is not up to mortals to question or validate His possible motives for doing so. God cannot lie, because what God says is, per definition, the truth.

In a more materialistic worldview, however, this line of argumentation means that we cannot expect the universe to follow rules. You might speculate that aging entered the world together with sin, but it is a speculation, and it opens as many questions as it answers. The Biblical dating system builds on the assumption that time existed from day 1. If you change that notion, you change everything, and God may have created the universe with its apparant age at any time, in fact, to put it a bit extremely, He might have created it last week.

Hans

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 03:10 AM

Obviously, it is within the almighty God's ability to create the universe with an apparant age, and obviously, it is not up to mortals to question or validate His possible motives for doing so. God cannot lie, because what God says is, per definition, the truth.

In a more materialistic worldview, however, this line of argumentation means that we cannot expect the universe to follow rules. You might speculate that aging entered the world together with sin, but it is a speculation, and it opens as many questions as it answers. The Biblical dating system builds on the assumption that time existed from day 1. If you change that notion, you change everything, and God may have created the universe with its apparant age at any time, in fact, to put it a bit extremely, He might have created it last week.

Hans

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I agree. I was not implying that time did not start until the first sin. I was saying that creation with eternal means had to stop because sin brought death as a new law being added to it.

Example: From Genesis one, to the first sin. Time was eternal. Why? No death could, or would occur until the first sin was committed.

1) So creation until the first sin = time plus eternity. Which also includes creation of things with the power of eternity. Which included creating things with age, but without the passage of time. Because time was eternal, so the passage of time was not needed to create. Besides, what is the meaning of time when it's eternal? Which means it has no end.

2) When Adam and Eve sinned = time plus the curse of death. Which includes everything that has life. so now time has a new meaning. It can now measure the end, or death of something. And because everything created now has a begining and end. The laws of life having a begining and end have to be obeyed.

Also notice this:

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


So notice that the first three days, there is no end, or begining of each day. It just continous. Now look below and notice that even when the sun and moon were created, there is still no mention of an end in each day.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


So why did not the creation of the sun and moon change the days to have an end? Because until the first sin, time was not a measurement to the end of anything. So whether God provided the light, or the sun provided the light. It was all eternal until the first sin. And this is why the creation is not understood because we do not fully understand what eternity is.

How things "might" change in eternity:

1) If you were to cook something to eat, how would you know how long to cook it if time was eternal?
2) If things do not age in eternity, when would food good bad (expire)?
3) If you were to conduct a scientific test that required time. How would you know that enough time had past in eternity? And, would time even effect your test if it were eternal?
4) How would you measure speed in time that was eternal. Since time is required to measure it. Example: A car is going 70 mph (Mile per "Hour"). How do you measure a eternal hour?
5) Would you even know that an hour had past in eternity?

So do you see the possibilities of how eternity could change the laws we are used to? And now you know how this could also effect how things were created right before the first sin was committed.

#13 MRC_Hans

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 03:30 AM

Yes, obviously eternity, or timelessness, not only could but would fundamentally change everything. However, if you postulate timelessness (but why does Genesis then mention days at all?), then everything floats. Then the distance from genesis to the Fall could be zero, or infinity.

However, all this is esotheric. You may claim that at some point time and natural laws started to apply, but which point is that? Day 1 in Genesis? The Fall? November 17th, 1948? Yesterday? If you think about it, you will find that any answer is valid.

Hans

#14 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 05:15 PM

In a more materialistic worldview, however, this line of argumentation means that we cannot expect the universe to follow rules.


I don't think it means that at all. How do you come to that conclusion?

You might speculate that aging entered the world together with sin, but it is a speculation, and it opens as many questions as it answers.


I don't think its really speculation. There was no death before sin. Consequently, things may have aged, but not in the sense that we think of it. I.e. as things age, they eventually fall apart and die.

Terry

#15 MRC_Hans

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 11:12 PM

I don't think it means that at all.  How do you come to that conclusion?


That should be obvious: Since God, in your scenario, has changed the rules, the laws of physics, along the way, we cannot trust those rules to apply universally.


I don't think its really speculation.  There was no death before sin. Consequently, things may have aged, but not in the sense that we think of it.  I.e. as things age, they eventually fall apart and die.



I don't think you can infer that from Genesis. After all, Eve and Adam, and presumably all the animals were eating while in Eden. Even if they were all vegetatians, platns are life, too. So there was at least some kind of death, and at least plants had the need to grow and procreate. Also, if you are to take the words of Genesis literally, which you seem to do (otherwise, why should you be a creationist?), they imply that time was passing.

However, I think the discussion here is whether time applies universally or not, i.e. whether the observable ages of things are valid or not. Your claim is that it is not, that the universe was created with some apparant age, and that the clock was started at some specific point.

...And my question to you is: When was the clock started? .. And, of course, what is yout argument for picking just that point?

Hans

#16 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 02:39 AM

That should be obvious: Since God, in your scenario, has changed the rules, the laws of physics, along the way, we cannot trust those rules to apply universally.


He put the rules into effect when he created the universe. The only places we would expect things not to follow the rules is when he directly intervenes, e.g. The Lord walking on the water, or the results of the Noah's flood.

I don't think you can infer that from Genesis. After all, Eve and Adam, and presumably all the animals were eating while in Eden. Even if they were all vegetatians, platns are life, too.


Plants to not count as life with regard to the effects of sin.

However, I think the discussion here is whether time applies universally or not, i.e. whether the observable ages of things are valid or not. Your claim is that it is not, that the universe was created with some apparant age, and that the clock was started at some specific point.

...And my question to you is: When was the clock started? .. And, of course, what is yout argument for picking just that point?


From Day 1 in Genesis, but that doesn't really address the point. What I'm saying is that the universe was created with certain characteristics, through the 1st six days, and those characterics, can be misunderstood from a naturalistic viewpoint.

Terry

#17 MRC_Hans

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 04:39 AM

He put the rules into effect when he created the universe.  The only places we would expect things not to follow the rules is when he directly intervenes, e.g. The Lord walking on the water, or the results of the Noah's flood.


And stopping the sun, healing the sick, etc. etc. People pray, right? They claim that God hears their prayers, in other words, intervene. However, this may be off topic.

Plants to not count as life with regard to the effects of sin.


I see. Exactly which life forms count with regards to the effect of sin (and why)?

From Day 1 in Genesis, but that doesn't really address the point.  What I'm saying is that the universe was created with certain characteristics, through the 1st six days, and those characterics, can be misunderstood from a naturalistic viewpoint.


Mmmm, OK. So light from distant stars, recording a condition they were never in was created. Various isotope molecules were carefully placed in a condition that reflected some imaginary age. Mountains were constructed from conglomerates of stones that were carefully shaped to mimick water grinding, etc. etc.

Yes, well, all is possible for God and we cannot fathom His motives, nor can we accuse Him of lying, since He is the ultimate arbiter of truth, but on a quite personal level, I do find this way of designing a world a bit deceptive ;) .

Hans

#18 Dave

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 07:39 AM

I see. Exactly which life forms count with regards to the effect of sin (and why)?

Hans

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Hans,

Just so you'll know for future reference, God has made a very clear distinction in the Bible between plants, animals and man. The Hebrew words describing their creation are different, as well as describing how they "die." In short, plants were given by God as food for man and animals. They don't figure into the effect of sin at all, unless you consider that God punished Adam and all his descendants with the burden of having to toil by the sweat of his brow to till the soil and struggle to produce food from the fall on.

You can read an article about it at:

http://www.answersin...2/do-leaves-die

If you pursue this study farther, you'll realize that not only are plants clearly different from animals, but animals are clearly very different from man. Man is unique in God's creation, and that's why no matter how "religiously" materialistic scientists try to produce man from mud, they'll never be able to do more than wander aimlessly around a maze of evolutionistic false trails.

Dave

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 02:17 PM

Yes, well, all is possible for God and we cannot fathom His motives, nor can we accuse Him of lying, since He is the ultimate arbiter of truth, but on a quite personal level, I do find this way of designing a world a bit deceptive  ;) .


I don't have much of a feel for what leve of apparent age is created in the universe, but one thing for sure, is that he is not deceiving anyone. Its obvious to the casual observer that life is created, and the evidence abounds all around.

If you make up your mind about a certain thing, even though God told you otherwise, you have nothing to complain about.

Terry

#20 MRC_Hans

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 11:19 PM

I don't have much of a feel for what leve of apparent age is created in the universe, but one thing for sure, is that he is not deceiving anyone.  Its obvious to the casual observer that life is created, and the evidence abounds all around.


Ehrm, this is what the whole discussion is about. It may appear to the casual observer that the world is created, but if you research things it looks differently.

If you make up your mind about a certain thing, even though God told you otherwise, you have nothing to complain about.


I'm certainly not complaining. .....Perhaps God told me something different.

Hans




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